Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Grimm on June 30, 2003, 10:37:03 AM
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Iv been following several discussion on the effects of Fuel being porked. This has prompted me to watch and evaluate the situation.
I can safely say I am in agreement that it is too easy to pork the fuel verses what it takes to bring it back up.
A Good Jabo pilot, single handedly can reduce a feild to 25% Fuel even if there are several defenders. To raise the fuel back up takes the efforts of Many airfeild cargo loads. The Balance is not there. efforts of 1 = efforts of a dozen
Even a fairly unskilled pilot can still reduce the fuel quite easily, more like down to 75% again it takes alot of efforts to negate that.
The Fuel simply goes down too easily.
It seems that a solution should be looked into. Perhaps a combination of Ideas. Maybe more fuel tanks per feild. or maybe concrete bunkers around the tanks so only vertical attacks (bomb, rocket straffing straight down) has effect. Or maybe something nobody has suggested yet.
This is often bad for the Attacker as well as the defender. Often the Fuel is so badly damaged at a base, its practicaly useless untill many C47s are flown in after a capture. It will be easier to keep the fuel intact if was a littel harder to take down.
The Present settup just gives one person too much ability to effect arena conditions.
Agree? Have a valid solution??
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I think it's OK. Gives the outnumbered guys a way to effectively counteratack the usual lemmi....(there I go again)... massive raid agains an undefended field. :D
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I agree pepe. Its ok now. Its the only way to defend against bishhordes and they have anyway more than enough people to resupply their fields.:D
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Grimm I see what you are saying, but I disagree with you. I do because they just upped how much load it takes to kill a hangar. If you start upping the fuel, you'd have to up the Radar, and Ammo bunkers. Plus you'd have to waste a 1000lb bomb on just a fuel tank, doesn't make sense. It only takes 250lb right now to kill a fuel tank I believe, which is about 8 times less than a hangar. If you up it 500lb, it would be almost 1/4 the wieght to take down a hangar, so than what about the ammo bunkers? The only thing it would do is make people better at dive bombing, which sure people need, but not to this extent.
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Hellcat,
Personaly I would not increase the hardness. Im thinking more fuel tanks, or protection around them.
An example is now, each tank destroyed takes fuel down by 25%. Perhaps with more tanks it would take it down 10% It would make it harder for a single guy to impact things, It might take a few guys working together (gasp)
Or the other way with concrete bunkers around would not take a bigger bomb, it just would mean you must drop it from above, shallow bomb runs wouldnt be effective. Also this would make low angle staffing or rocket attacks ineffective. It would require a person to come at a steep angle, and have to climb back up for a second or third pass.
As it is now.. just come in with a Typh hugging the ground and completely take down fuel.
IMHO that isnt good game balance.
either or of those changes would not increase the hardness of the tanks, it would just require more difficult tactics.
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has been recorded.
Waaaa, there's no balance.
Waaaa, the fields are too far apart.
Waaaa, my kill/hour score is less than 10.
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Look...shubert is making friends again :p
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Originally posted by Drunky
Look...shubert is making friends again :p
Just trying to influence people.
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I think it's OK now. This afternoon, I took up a F6F from a CV and completely deacked the field single handedly - no cons came up. So just in case they got ideas about suiciding our CV, I landed the F6F (only 0.46pp :() and upped another, and then used bombs and rockets to pork the fuel. True, with no acks and no defenders, it was as easy as pie to pork the fuel back to 25%. But is it MY fault that there were no defenders? Sounds like some fuel porkage whiners want targets to be tougher so they don't have to bother to defend them, and can get on with the all important task of furball-furball-furball...
In a real life situation, a single Stuka pilot could destroy a facility which would then take a few dozen people days to repair. So I don't see anything wrong with how AH is now. What's being called for by the anti-fuel-porkage lobby is for the repair of the fuel to be made as easy as its destruction. That is clearly not realistic. It takes only seconds to pork the fuel. For repairs to be completed by one person in the same length of time is patently ridiculous.
More mannable ack!
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It's fine the way it is if your goal is to make everyone fly 51's.. 25% fuel will allow you to fly to an enemy field, fight and return in a pee 51.
guess we don't see enough pee 51's in the game so it is a consevation measure like spotted owls or one eyed newts or some such.
lazs
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Originally posted by rshubert
has been recorded.
Waaaa, there's no balance.
Waaaa, the fields are too far apart.
Waaaa, my kill/hour score is less than 10.
Huh??
I think I missed your point....
does that mean your agreeing with me?
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Originally posted by beet1e
Sounds like some want targets to be tougher so they don't have to bother to defend them
My stance is this... The balance is too far one direction. I wouldnt want to eliminate the fuel to be destroyed. I am just thinking something to increase the challange for the lone porker. If he did well, he would have about the same results.
Iv just been watching guys streaking thru the defenders and zipping along the deck and removing the fuel. Its really easy to do as you pointed out.
My Idea is to make it a bit more challenging.
I realise this is a moot point, HTC will do whatever they feel is in their best interest. I just thought to bring my thoughts to light.
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Grimm - fair enough. I did my two sorties and landed both. I think it's the suicide fuel porker that irritates the most. But equally annoying is the suicide CV killer. In fact all the suicide crap makes me despair. Roll on AH2...
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Decrease field distance to 1/2 sector and make fields sufficiently easily killable. That way the "normal" fighting distance will be the same as now, but the thing that is fought over can be blown up nicely.
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Originally posted by Grimm
My stance is this... The balance is too far one direction.
That may be true, but remember a while back when running a supply goon would practicaly rebuild an entire field. That caused a lot of complaints on how it was too easy to re-supply.
I'd hate to distract from the JABO roll of Attack AC but maybe some targets should only be able to be destroyed via level bombers? This would bring the fluff numbers back up, much to the dismay of Lazs ;) but atleast it may make one work harder to take down the fuel.
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I personally think that the ROF for airfield flak should be increased, or at least arm the mannable guns with .50 cals. Also, make the flak burst guns mannable.
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Originally posted by Grimm
Huh??
I think I missed your point....
does that mean your agreeing with me?
LOL. Oh, yes, you missed my point. By about a mile. No, no, never, no. I don't agree with your whine. Or any of the others about how unbalanced the gameplay is, in their opinion.
I like it just fine the way it is. Somebody ought to do a study on how many planes get shot down per fuel bunker on average. I'll bet the number would astonish you.
On the other hand, there are a few Jabo pilots in here who can get the fuel and get away. That's a skill set I am still working to develop.
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Originally posted by AcId
That may be true, but remember a while back when running a supply goon would practicaly rebuild an entire field. That caused a lot of complaints on how it was too easy to re-supply.
I'd hate to distract from the JABO roll of Attack AC but maybe some targets should only be able to be destroyed via level bombers? This would bring the fluff numbers back up, much to the dismay of Lazs ;) but atleast it may make one work harder to take down the fuel.
Yes, I agree, at one time it was too easy to re-suppy. Lets not return to that. My vision is only to change the tactics needed.
I think a concrete bunker, as in a wall around the tank, would make it more difficult to straff, Jabo, or Level bomb from a very low level. Only bullets, rockets or eggs coming from a more vertical angle would do damage to a fuel tank.
Adding to the number of tanks per feild would still mean each tank destroyed would have an effect on fuel availble, but more tanks would need to destroyed to reduce a feild to 25%
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Originally posted by rshubert
On the other hand, there are a few Jabo pilots in here who can get the fuel and get away. That's a skill set I am still working to develop.
You otta try working on your reading interpetation skills. There isn't any whine being posted here.
Grim is just bringing to light what most folks see as a problem within the game.
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Originally posted by rshubert
LOL. Oh, yes, you missed my point. By about a mile. No, no, never, no. I don't agree with your whine.
Hey thats OK... I dont expect everyone to agree. Im just looking at it as a possible way to improve gameplay.
Whine? well Im from Cheese country what do you expect? ;)
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Originally posted by Grimm
Hey thats OK... I dont expect everyone to agree. Im just looking at it as a possible way to improve gameplay.
Whine? well Im from Cheese country what do you expect? ;)
Oooooh...just noticed. Please send me a wheel of that excellent sharp cheddar.
shubie
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Originally posted by sax
You otta try working on your reading interpetation skills. There isn't any whine being posted here.
Grim is just bringing to light what most folks see as a problem within the game.
somebody always starts the hatchet fight, sax. Is today your day?
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beet1e,
Having a defender there doesn't change much unless said defender has been orbiting at 20,000ft.
I, unintentionally, found myself defending a field that was under attack by two P-38s. I was already in the air and climbing in a Spitfire Mk IX when they came in (I didn't know they were coming when I upped). Due to the speed they gained from their dive there was absolutely nothing I could do outside of desparation snapshots (I did hit one of their engines, but on a P-38 it doesn't matter) and they killed all of the fuel without difficulty.
The damaged one did eventually make the mistake of taking the fight horizontal and I killed him or he augered with me getting the kill.
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The fuel porking isn't the problem. The fuel hardness isn't the problem. The fuel re-up time isn't the problem.
The problem is the lack of willingness on the part of the defenders to organize defense.
For all intent and purposes, the MA is an ongoing war to control territory. Killing off the fuel supplies as a means of easing the path to more territory is entirely acceptable as a strategic option of Airpower.
A side note to our "problem" is the Suicide Jabo pilot. There's very little chance a single Jabo pilot (suicide or not) will survive killing all, or a majority of the field's fuel without dying himself. We have entire squads who consider suicide runs against ack followed by suicide against fuel (and everything else) as entirely acceptable.
There is only one way to stop "these" problems. That, is organized defense. HTC has made it abundantly clear that they aren't going to take any serious steps to nix the Suicide guys (how could they? I really don't see an option for HTC with respect to maintaining a player base).
SO, as much as I hate porked fuel, and as much MORE as I hate the suicide idiots, MY real problem is the lack of willingness on the part of my own country to let these things happen in the first place.
The same goes for CV's. CV's are valuable assets to any country, yet every single time a CV gets in position to fight, you can bet a suicide group of 38's or 47's is going to show up and kill your CV. YET, How often do we see a flight of Corsairs or Hellcats get up, extend to high alt and CAP the CV? Almost never. Who's fault is it the CV gets killed?
It's not the bad guys being unreasonable, they are just doing what would be expected in a "wartime" environment. The problem(s) lie with your own country. Every furballer goof, and every Strat-weenie in your own country is to blame.
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Originally posted by Tumor
A side note to our "problem" is the Suicide Jabo pilot. There's very little chance a single Jabo pilot (suicide or not) will survive killing all, or a majority of the field's fuel without dying himself. We have entire squads who consider suicide runs against ack followed by suicide against fuel (and everything else) as entirely acceptable.
I don't know. It seems pretty easy to me.
The only way that I could reliably be stopped is if the enemy maintained a CAP at about 10,000ft. Needless to say this would be boring most of the time and therefore nobody is going to do it in a game they pay for and play for entertainment.
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Rshubert you need to learn not to shoot from the hip unless you really know whats going on.
Grimm is a premier strat guy, he set's up missions for his country and is pretty damn good at it. You could learn quite alot from him, he knows his stuff and has been doing it for along time.
But you just stepped in it again..
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Originally posted by nopoop
Rshubert you need to learn not to shoot from the hip unless you really know whats going on.
Grimm is a premier strat guy, he set's up missions for his country and is pretty damn good at it. You could learn quite alot from him, he knows his stuff and has been doing it for along time.
But you just stepped in it again..
Im feeling very humbled by that. I just enjoy the game and folks that fly it. I enjoy the discussions here and just do what I can to when flying.
Thank you for compliment sir ::SALUTE::
PS. I like a good dogfight too :)
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Yea, it is pretty pathetic what the MA has come to. I typically log in, and see one of two things. First, no fights. Log off. Second, porked fuel at every single base that has a fight within 75 miles. Log off. What a great value.
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Originally posted by rshubert
somebody always starts the hatchet fight, sax. Is today your day?
Yea , to be honest you irratated me for one brief moment. It's gotta be your feminine side cause my wife is usually the only person I know who can make me waste my time.
Grimm , Good post.
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Originally posted by nopoop
Grimm is a premier strat guy, he set's up missions for his country and is pretty damn good at it. You could learn quite alot from him, he knows his stuff and has been doing it for along time.
I can find no scores/stats for "Grimm". Is this a secret ID? I know a lot of guys who post here hide behind secret IDs.
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Originally posted by Grimm
It seems that a solution should be looked into. Perhaps a combination of Ideas. Maybe more fuel tanks per feild. or maybe concrete bunkers around the tanks so only vertical attacks (bomb, rocket straffing straight down) has effect. Or maybe something nobody has suggested yet.
I suggest little, pink, fru-fru umbrellas like those girly, fru-fru drinks come with :D
Sorry, I'm drunk (Hell, I'm Drunky) and having some stupid, drunk fun at someone's/something's expense.
Carry on.
Rshubert is to Aces High what B.F. GoodYear is to the Congressional Library.
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Oh jeez beet1e leave it to you to "look" for scores when you don't really "care" about them.
With a week off, your balls to the wall right out of the start gate...
And Grimm ya bassstage ya owe me fifty bucks..
Rshubert your shoe is starting to stink.
Urchin, take a month off..
That about covers it, let the "drama" continue..
Sax I'd offer ya a beer, but it's cheap American beer...
...and I "know" how you guys are..
God I HOPE I spelled everything correctly..
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Originally posted by rshubert
LOL. Oh, yes, you missed my point. By about a mile. No, no, never, no. I don't agree with your whine. Or any of the others about how unbalanced the gameplay is, in their opinion.
I like it just fine the way it is. Somebody ought to do a study on how many planes get shot down per fuel bunker on average. I'll bet the number would astonish you.
On the other hand, there are a few Jabo pilots in here who can get the fuel and get away. That's a skill set I am still working to develop.
no need in busting his nuts, it's just an idea. bad form dude.
me personally i hate fuel porking cause my la7 is a gas hog.
grimm good idea
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Originally posted by beet1e
I can find no scores/stats for "Grimm". Is this a secret ID? I know a lot of guys who post here hide behind secret IDs.
His AH Game ID is GrimmCAF. But what does it matter what the man's score is when he's just posting up some ideas?
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Aren't we just a "sensitive" bunch :p
Maybe we need a nut check.
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Originally posted by Thunder9
His AH Game ID is GrimmCAF. But what does it matter what the man's score is when he's just posting up some ideas?
Thanks, Thunder9. I'm not so much interested in scores as stats - types of plane flown etc. Clearly Grimm is concerned about the porkage issue, so I was just trying to assess the type of player.
Nopoop, keep your pants on.
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Originally posted by beet1e
I can find no scores/stats for "Grimm". Is this a secret ID? I know a lot of guys who post here hide behind secret IDs.
My Current GameID is GrimmCAF. I was Grimm during Beta, I was Gr1mm/Grimm in AW, I was Grimm back on Qlink in the Mid 80s. Iv been Grimm for so long its like my second name.
Im not much of a score guy, I sometimes watch my K/D, but mostly Im too busy herding cats or planning something to watch it. Spend a fair share of time workin with scenarios, even COed Midway. There is more to AH than just scores ;)
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beetle .. if you gonna look @ his stats look for the past year...
Grimm is a great guy and commander. i think he's even run a couple ROJ's, but i dont hinki i have ever seen him fly the same sortie twice.
meaning he's a very diverse pilot doing most of what the MA has to offer ;)
Ps. why do you want to look up the stats of somone posting their idea anyway? if they dont measure up to some ideal their thoughts are not valid?
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Originally posted by beet1e
Clearly Grimm is concerned about the porkage issue, so I was just trying to assess the type of player.
Hey Beetle, Not a Problem. You can just ask me too :)
I try to support AH and the Community wearever I can.
Iv been asked to join the CM team, but have had to decline for now. Im very busy with Commanding the Cactus Air Force, and with being a key person in the RJO (rook joint operations).
I try to follow the messages and read between the flames. Ill joke alittle and try to add comments when I can.
Back in the day of Old at AW I was an Event Host.
I have been watching the Fuel Issue and felt that my vision had relivance and wanted to bring it to light. Perhaps, if it makes sence someone at HTC will notice it and see if it does improve things, if not, Its been a decent conversation.
Yes, I do Furball sometimes, I cherry pick sometimes, I fly heavy bombers sometimes, sometimes I spend entire nights flying C47s and just interact with my country. I like a good fight and I enjoy working a reset. Iv commanded the RJO a several times, with a couple hunderd pilots following my lead. Iv lead us to several resets.
I guess I think of myself as well rounded and see the needs of many types of players...
:)
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Grimm - fair enough. I just wondered if I had run into you online. I like working with the guys who organise things sensibly, but not mob-handed missuns where the sheer numerical supremacy dictates the outcome. What time zone are you Grimm? Oh wait - Wisconsin. Central?
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Originally posted by beet1e
Grimm - fair enough. I just wondered if I had run into you online. What time zone are you Grimm? Oh wait - Wisconsin. Central?
Well, First off Im not the leader these guys claim. Im just social enough to get a little help.
Im not much for the "Missun" planner in the game. Its the squads, their COs and their pilots that fly primetime Rook that make the difference. The Core RJO squads are really an amazing bunch. The rest of the Rooks are pretty good at helping as needed.
Wisconsin is in the Central time zone (USA) I fly about 20hrs a month, sometimes a little more. I probably spend about the same amount doing the administrative things needed of a CO.
Im starting to feel like its an interview! LOL!
Back to the Fuel Bunkers
What I see is Fuel that is just too easy to pork. Im not calling for hardness changes or supply changes. Just a small tweek that would call for a change in the tactics to pork them. This wont stop a suicide attack, but it might lessen the effect. (ie only one tank.. with only a 10% reduction lets say)
Like I said before, If Fuel was a little harder to take down, It would benifit both the defender, and the Attacker if Capture is his goal.
A Guy like Lazs that lives to Fight close to the deck and not far from his feild would benifit from this. Fuel can still go down, but it has a better chance of staying up.
Strat players would be challanged to use better techinics to take down the fuel. Also the amount of random damage to fuel when Steamrolling a feild would be less and help those guys out also.
The best argument for the statis quo Iv seen so far is this. That porking fuel with ease can slow the juggernaut of a large enemy assualt. I can counter that with destroying Barracks hurts an attacker more than fuel.
I formed my Ideas after reading comments from this forum, and watching for these actions in the MA.