Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: GRUNHERZ on July 01, 2003, 05:26:51 AM
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When are these people going to release their Korea game? All I have seen them do in the past year or so is add two extra projects , rabaul and now flanders to take even more time and resources away from Korea, and redesign their damn website. Lets see these clowns with no product are simultaneosly trying to build THREE different sims covering thre different eras with completely differnt types of aircraft - I bet the next thing we'll see from them is a WW2OL stle game ANNOUNCMENT and of course no actual playable game. These guys are a joke - they seem to have no focus whatsover.
When is the Korea game coming out... WTF whos running that company, Voss?
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Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhh! Waaaaaaaaahhhhhh!
Somebody needs a timeout.
:rolleyes:
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An almighty whine has been recorded.
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Wow... you may want to stop by their web site and actually read up on Targetware cause it doesn't look like you have a clue what you're talking about.
MiniD
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All my BBS friends are here... :rolleyes:
:)
But since you seem to know so much tell me when is the Korea game coming out?
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check your mail slacker ! :p
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cc straffo. :)
But still, whether thay are really a commercial effort or a volunteer venture I think they are needlessly out of focus by spreading the total developer pool resources across three games instead of focusing on one project and getting it done.
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Ok, seriously this time. I suppose your point of view depends on what you're waiting for. I *was* looking forward to Target Korea, until I heard about Target Rabaul. Then I was hot on that until they announced Target Flanders. Since I'm a WWI afficianado more than any other war, I've shifted my desire to wanting them to take away resources from TK and TR and put them into TF.
You have to admit that being a totally volunteer outfit, this was going to take much longer than a regular shop to produce.
We love you too, Groinhurts. :)
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Grunherz, grab a clue :p
The "Target" people working on Korea are not the people who are working on Rabual, and are not the people working on Flanders, and are not the people working on Hanoi, and are not the people working on Madrid/Tuerel..... ooops did I let something slip? ;)
Its all community donated time and effort (except for Sick who is the one full time programmer). The people donating time to one mod, most likely would NOT donate time and effort to the other mods due to their areas of interest. So there is NOT any "spreading themselves out".
I bet the next thing we'll see from them is a WW2OL stle game ANNOUNCMENT and of course no actual playable game.
Wanna bet? :D
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And that still means that three or now four :) different part time teams are working on four different projects istead of pooling their resources and getting Korea finished. Now of course they are free to do what they and wish but it seems to me that it just means nothing gets done...
When will any of these games be out? One more year, two three?
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[size=8]Target:
Teurel
Woot![/size]
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Thats my point Grunherz. The guys working on WWI bipes, have no interest in working on jets for the Korean war, and vice versa. So your not getting any lack of focus.
When will any of these games be out? One more year, two three?
Ummmmm..... Two weeks? ;)
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GRUN
No one team works on any other project, I did work on the ki-45 model and skin. I did no work on any other area due to no interest.
As far as vaporware, it is flyable and quite nice BTW. Just sit back and well wait...they have no intentions on releasing an unfinished product.
And if you were in such a rush for it to be released, how about volunteering some of YOUR time.
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Originally posted by Vermillion
Thats my point Grunherz. The guys working on WWI bipes, have no interest in working on jets for the Korean war, and vice versa. So your not getting any lack of focus.
Ummmmm..... Two weeks? ;)
My take on it is the pool of people with the neccesary skills are running around doing whatever they fancy instead of there being some directed effort. Having flanders and rabaul and the new spanish war one doesnt not mean most or all people working on them would not have any interest in working on Korea - it likely means they prefer doing those over Korea. And frankly since they all draw resources from the same rather limited pool of flight sim enthusiats with appropriat programming/drawing skills and (in)sufficient free time any cool new target: (instert personal fantasy combat flight sim area) project just reduces the number of people and time available to work on any of the others. Now I'm for freedom of choice but I fear with new variants and mods popping up that the talent pool will be diluted and none of this will ever come to frution for outsiders to see.
I might be wrong and maybe this is all going great, and I hope it is, but hell how long has Korea been in the works and what do they have to publicly show for it...
When will the show us the goods?
I'd like to help but I have no skills to program computers. :(
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I've been on the beta test for awhile. I've flown both games. Some of the aircraft like the F-51 and such could be ported over to a WW2 game. But each game has it's only group that want to work on a certain period. There is the cord code that Sick is working on and then there is the differant games.
I know, I've been waitting for about 2 years for the open beta. And from what I gather, they are almost there. They are putting things up so everyone can play the games. That means more work on the codes. But from what I can see, they are just about there.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
I think they are needlessly out of focus by spreading the total developer pool resources across three games instead of focusing on one project and getting it done.
You aren't alone in this opinion.
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Ummm ... guys .....
"Targetware" is a different concept from a conventional online game being developed buy a hired group of developers.
"Targetware" is a game engine that was developed by a group that decided the great experiment involves letting the players develop whatever they want to using it. The "limited pool" of talent (be it modelers, artists, etc.) isn't nearly as limited as it would be by most companies who have a paid staff and are interested in achieving the most profit with the least expense.
As has already been mentioned, the players working on the various incarnations of Target:Fill in the Blank are all interested in whatever projects they are working on and are probably less interested (if interested at all) in working on others. This being the case, they will probably show more enthusiasm and focus on their particular passion (rather than "obligation" to work on someone else's project and finish it in hopes that the other members of the groups involved in other projects will set aside their fun time to devote their focus on helping them with theirs). And, being a work of love versus a work of deadline, you'd be surprised how often such wins the race between the two. I imagine if I sat back and clucked at others who were actually working on something while I did nothing to either help or compete against it, that my expressions of contempt could be easily taken as foolish flatulence (no matter how "well meaning" my criticisms were). ;)
So ... if indeed you are concerned about the progress of one particular version of Targetware (as has been mentioned, these are seperate groups of people, not one company organizing a release of several of their versions of the game on their servers) ... and you have the tools and talent (or even the desire to learn) ... then why not volunteer your services to the cause instead of being a "sky is falling" doom/nay sayer? :D
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Arlo by constantly adding new variations you will naturally reduce the number of people available to work on on any one particual project. As an example if you took it to an absurd length we would end up with each person making their own personal sim all by himself - as he prefers that combat concept or era over otrhers. Naturally you dont have to take it that far to see that having these four concurrent projects will dilute the talent pool of skilled flight sim ndividuls willing to voluntee their time.
I thik the pool of those willing to work on such a project is allready small enough. Lets see who they most likely are...
Pretty much must be flight sim enthusiast - small enough group right there and even smaller if we assume he is an online combat sim player.
Then he must have an interest in actually building a flight sim.
After that:
Must have computer programming and/or 2D/3D drawing skills.
Must have sufficient free time and be willing to devote to the project- remember they arent getting paid to do this.
These factors invariably reduce pool of available skilled willing individuals. Now go split this pool at least four ways and I dont think its unlikely that each project will suffer and bog down in frustartion. And whats the solution, well satrt another one of course with wonderous dreams of air combat in some unique new area...
I am worried, I am complaining and have good reason to be.
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I'm ignorant. Please help me correct it ;)
Is Targetware going to be a stand alone game or is it mods for another game?
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Hmmmm.... I say, hmmmmmmmmmmm...
Arlo by constantly adding new variations you will naturally reduce the number of people available to work on on any one particual project. As an example if you took it to an absurd length we would end up with each person making their own personal sim all by himself - as he prefers that combat concept or era over otrhers. Naturally you dont have to take it that far to see that having these four concurrent projects will dilute the talent pool of skilled flight sim ndividuls willing to voluntee their time.
Actually, people signed up to do WWI, WWII, or the Korean 3D objects/models/etc.
They wouldn't be doing anything except playing some other game if their interest weren't there for their era.
There is no "dillution" in the talent pool, either someone wants to do a certain thing for the game/era... or they do nothing. One person interested in WWI planes won't be doing WWII planes, as they have no interest in it.
I think you are somewhere between left field and the parking lot here Grun.
-SW
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I am worried, I am complaining and have good reason to be.
My dear Grunherz, since you once chimed in and told me I didn't know what the hell I was talking about awhile ago, let me return the favor.
Since you don't have the programming skills to put up or shut up, then you'll just have to settle for shutting up.
You have no basis for complaining. These people are vounteers, and most likely will not be monetarily renumerated for their efforts. Your obvious need to control people and events is frustrated in this case, and it's eating at you.
Why don't you go yell at your employees at Taco Bell or wherever it is you learned your so-called management skills.
Oh yes, the obligatory smiley.... :)
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They are spreading their efforts too thin...
But I do love the personal insults....
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SW
I'm not so sure that most people would only absolutely want to work on only one era. However having many eras will naturally lead to people picking their favorite. Again my concern is that they are spreading total available resources of willing and skilled people too thin by having so many projects..
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Fact of the matter is, people who do have the know-how will only dedicate their limited free time to something they enjoy.
If I enjoyed WWI planes (which I do), and there was a game that needed an F16 and I had the know-how to build one in a CAD... I wouldn't waste my time on it.
Now, if a WWI game came along- I'd spend as much of my free time as possible to create as many WWI planes as I could, starting off with my favorites and working my way down to my least favorites.
Thats just the way it is, people who do have the know-how will use it on projects they want to see completed... they won't waste it on a project they won't enjoy.
Thats why certain people only do certain planes for Il2/Forgotten Battles... one guy only did the PZL P11c, because he wanted to see it in the game.
So, in reality- they aren't spreading talent too thin, because that talent would _NOT_ work on one of the other projects due to lack of interest.
-SW
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We have our differences here.
But still when are any of thse games going to be available to the public?
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I read recently that open beta will be sometime soon, "when" in the computer world is as definitive as saying "what if".
As for our differences, ask anyone with the know-how to create 3D objects for a game if they would willingly waste their time on a project they had no interest in?
Then, go and find out how many people actually learned 3Dstudio stuff to create a plane they liked a lot for a game of a certain era.
-SW
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
We have our differences here.
But still when are any of thse games going to be available to the public?
2 weeks, asssuming they don't start Target Angola or Target Malvinas and further divide their efforts. :)
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It's Falklands, and it's staying that way. It would therefore be called Target Falklands, which would feature Harriers knocking the stuffing out of Argy stuff.
Target Argy-Bargy would be even better. :D
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I think I struck a nerve. :)
If the game comes out, I will own you with my Etendards. :)
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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
I read recently that open beta will be sometime soon, "when" in the computer world is as definitive as saying "what if".
As for our differences, ask anyone with the know-how to create 3D objects for a game if they would willingly waste their time on a project they had no interest in?
Then, go and find out how many people actually learned 3Dstudio stuff to create a plane they liked a lot for a game of a certain era.
-SW
The problem with your argument is that you are putting it into absolutist "all or nothing" terms. Youre saying that each of these people has only one area of interst and has no interst beyond that whatsover. My stance is that most people likely have several areas of interst and knowledge but of course some are stronger than others. When the choice is available they would go with their prefferd era. And i think thats great from a humanistic perspective but it does dilute concentration of talent neccesary to get stuff done if everyone is off doind so many different projects. And frankly so far it seems history is on my side, hasnt Korea been promising a beta "soon" for some two years?
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Originally posted by funkedup
2 weeks, asssuming they don't start Target Angola or Target Malvinas and further divide their efforts. :)
If other (key word) groups want to start up "Target: Downtown Bumblyburg" or "Target:Middle of Nowhere" that will not take away from the groups working on whatever Target:Whatever's they are working on. Is this, for some odd reason, a hard concept to grasp? ;)
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If all the TR/TWhatever people had chipped in on TK, the project would have been completed a long time ago.
If X people work on Y projects, the projects will take longer to complete than if X people worked on 1 project. Is this a hard concept to grasp?
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History has not been on your side, because the people working on each era never started work in Korea and then went to another of the mods, but instead started doing work for the mods when the one that interested them started up.
Korea has been promising beta for quite some time, and delivered.
Its been promising open beta for a couple months, but it has nothing to do with the work the volunteer people have or have not been doing but instead relies on the engine and server side/client side software to be acceptable before they release it.
This does not tie into being too spread out either, since one engine works for all the games.
I would go more into it, but I simply can't.
-SW
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lol :D
I will just deploy the Rapier missile system and take you down! I'll even avoid placing them on elevated areas which allowed the Argentinians to fly under their operating zone.
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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
Its been promising open beta for a couple months
Actually the original open beta promise was Q1 2001. Claiming history is on your side in this case is ludicrous.
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Originally posted by funkedup
If all the TR/TWhatever people had chipped in on TK, the project would have been completed a long time ago.
If X people work on Y projects, the projects will take longer to complete than if X people worked on 1 project. Is that such a difficult concept to grasp?
If all the congressmen on capital hill sent all our tax money to Vermont then the honorable gentlemen from Vermont would be the only one's re-elected. Targetware is a tool that any group can use for their own interests. Any group. Their interests. That's your final clue. Good luck. ;)
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Originally posted by Dowding
lol :D
I will just deploy the Rapier missile system and take you down! I'll even avoid placing them on elevated areas which allowed the Argentinians to fly under their operating zone.
Then I will just use my 1337 terrain masking skills to avoid your valley-dwelling Rapiers. :)
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They dont have to leave Korea to go to another project - they reduce resources available to it by staring another one which draws more people to it and makes it impossible for them to contribute to the others due to finite time.
Like funked said Korea would have been done a long time ago if the people focused and worked togerther instead of diving the limited skilled resources thrre or four times over.
Instead of one finished sim we have four incomplite pipedreams.
And what you have some sort of NDA if you in the beta - what do they have to hide if its all a wholseme community volunteer job...
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Originally posted by Arlo
If all the congressmen on capital hill sent all our tax money to Vermont then the honorable gentlemen from Vermont would be the only one's re-elected. Targetware is a tool that any group can use for their own interests. Any group. Their interests. That's your final clue. Good luck. ;)
Tee hee great wit but you have not refuted my assertion.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
And what you have some sort of NDA if you in the beta - what do they have to hide if its all a wholseme community volunteer job...
NDA is de rigeur for this kind of thing. Corporate espionage is real. Disgruntled beta testers leaking unfinished beta products are real. There is nothing sinister or un-wholesome about the NDA. TW have used it to protect their intellectual property, not to bully beta testers.
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I know funked.. But then again I get the impression some are trying to pass off TW as some sort of agendaless charity.. :)
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Originally posted by funkedup
Tee hee great wit but you have not refuted my assertion.
I'm sure I'll get over it. I did my best. I can explain it to ya but I can't understand it for ya. :D
btw .... offer your services to the Target:Korea team. They'll probably gladly steer you toward the tools needed and even help you with whatever skills you wish to focus your efforts on. And then you'll be less restive, to boot. ;)
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
I know funked.. But then again I get the impression some are trying to pass off TW as some sort of agendaless charity.. :)
The only agenda is (was?) to make a mission-based high-fidelity combat flight sim which didn't require a brick-and-mortar operation with a central host, and allowed users to do a lot of the dog-work. AFAIK nobody is making money off this, and I can only think of one person who really ever hoped to make money off this. :)
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Originally posted by Arlo
btw .... offer your services to the Target:Korea team. They'll probably gladly steer you toward the tools needed and even help you with whatever skills you wish to focus your efforts on. And then you'll be less restive, to boot. ;)
http://forums.targetware.net/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=20
PWN3D :D
If I were to work on flight sim mods these days it would probably be for SFP1 which is a more complete and polished product with a lot of eager 3d modellers and skinners at work. Really fertile ground for a Vietnam add-on (HINT HINT HINT). But at this point, I'm sick of the genre, too impatient, and have too short of an attention span to really contribute anything substantial. And I'm not restive, just calling a spade a spade. :)
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http://www.targetware.net/devguide/index.html
;)
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Arlo and SW, for what it's worth....I understand what you both are saying. Don't know why Funked and Groinhurts can't grasp the reality that the Target Flanders folks probably wouldn't be interested in helping out with Target Korea.
Groinhurts' initial thesis is hogwash, and Funked is just having a bad hair day. :)
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Originally posted by banana
Don't know why Funked and Groinhurts can't grasp the reality that the Target Flanders folks probably wouldn't be interested in helping out with Target Korea.
What I'm saying is that they should be interested. I wish everybody had chipped in and finished TK, then moved on to TR or whatever. The emphasis on TR really disappointed me, and is part of the reason I lost interest in the project.
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Actually the original open beta promise was Q1 2001. Claiming history is on your side in this case is ludicrous.
Funked, I didn't claim history was on my side - Grunherz did. Read the thread from beginning to end rather than however you are reading it because you apparently missed the flow of this thread.
If X people work on Y projects, the projects will take longer to complete than if X people worked on 1 project. Is this a hard concept to grasp?
Try this concept Funked, if X people are willing to work on Z project, then the project will get done in a certain amount of time. If Y people hear about T project being started, and had no interest in product Z, then began working on project T because their interest lay there- then their work has no impact negatively or positively on project Z.
Is THAT concept hard to grasp? Because thats exactly what is happening with Targetware.
You wanna know whats ludicrous? To believe that someone who never worked on Target:Korea, but instead joined up to work on Target:Rabaul or Target:Flanders when it was announced would for some reason have ended up working on Target:Korea even though they did not do so while knowing about the project.
For someone to dedicate their free time to something, there has to be interest in that project. Obviously these people working on Rabaul and Flanders had no interest in working on Korea, or else they would of been there from the getgo.
This is how it is, not your rendition where people were pulled from Korea or would have worked on Korea had these new projects in which their interest lay been started.
THERE WAS NO DIVISION OF LABOR!!! THERE WAS ONLY ADDITIONS TO WORK ON THE NEW PROJECTS! THEY WOULD NOT HAVE WORKED ON KOREA BECAUSE IF THEY WOULD HAVE, THEY ALREADY WOULD HAVE BEEN DOING IT!
If that isn't crystal clear, then I doubt even Stephen Hawking could explain it to you.
-SW
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Originally posted by banana
Arlo and SW, for what it's worth....I understand what you both are saying. Don't know why Funked and Groinhurts can't grasp the reality that the Target Flanders folks probably wouldn't be interested in helping out with Target Korea.
Groinhurts' initial thesis is hogwash, and Funked is just having a bad hair day. :)
Because it's not true - if people hadnt rushed off and started all these different projcets specializing in all sorts of differnt eras then the number of skilled people availble to finalize TK would have been greater. Thats a simple fact - unless of course you subscribe to the idea that the average person in the talent pool must only have one are of interst and no others.
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until I can play it, it's Vaporware. :D
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And I am right SW they are over two years behing schedule for their beta.... Thats history...
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Yeah, their open beta is two years behind, but you are completely 100% incorrect in saying its because Rabaul and Flanders were started.
-SW
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Less resources slows production.
BTW why do you think they are over two years behind schedule?
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The main reason they are behind schedule is because everybody involved has a day job. :)
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First one I won't even respond to, I have explained that one to you several times by now. There simply isn't any other way to put it into any better wording.
BTW why do you think they are over two years behind schedule?
Uhmm, lets see... because the people putting their time into the project do it in their free time, which is after putting in 40+ hours a week, being with their wives/friends/family, eating, going out, etc...
Now lets compare that with companies who have people working on projects 8hrs a day, 5 (or more) days a week, and getting paid for their work....
They are actually tied in overpromising and underdelivering.
-SW
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"overpromising and underdelivering"
My thoughts exactly!
As for the other thing you still cannot get beyond your "all or nothing" view...
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Because it's not true - if people hadnt rushed off and started all these different projcets specializing in all sorts of differnt eras then the number of skilled people availble to finalize TK would have been greater. Thats a simple fact - unless of course you subscribe to the idea that the average person in the talent pool must only have one are of interst and no others.
I don't believe that the average simmer has only one interest. But, I repeat, but.....if it consumes their own personal time and requires much effort, then I *do* believe that it would only interest someone who is passionate about that particular genre.
I don't believe that someone who is passionate about WWI sims would agree to sign up to work on a Korean War sim, just because there isn't a WWI sim to work on. The only people who would do that are people who want to help out on *any* sim, regardless of genre.
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One last time Grun, then I am going to have a nice conversation about world events with my dog and cats.. certainly they will be much easier to explain things to than you.
Because they had the option to work on Korea, BEFORE Rabaul and Flanders began.
When those two were announced, people signed up to work on Rabaul and Flanders... while they never signed up to work on Korea.
This says that their interest does not lie in Korea, but instead in Rabaul or Flanders, because thats where they decided to put their time into.
The problem is, you still do not understand that simply because there is no WWI or WWII project- those people would not just suddenly decide to devote their time to a project they obviously have NO interest in.
Atleast banana understands, phew! ;)
-SW
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Originally posted by banana
I don't believe that the average simmer has only one interest. But, I repeat, but.....if it consumes their own personal time and requires much effort, then I *do* believe that it would only interest someone that is passionate about that particular genre.
I don't believe that someone who is passionate about WWI sims would agree to sign up to work on a Korean War sim, just because there isn't a WWI sim to work on. The only people who would do that are people who want to help out on *any* sim, regardless of genre.
Lets say they are more MORE passionate about WWI than thy are passionate about korea.
Why do you asuume that they will forgo any and all opprtunities to pursue their Korea passion bacuse their WWI passion is stronger?
Your whole model still hinges that one area is absolute over all others - particularly you imply that one will forgo lesser passions alltogther if the primary one is somehow unavailable. I dont think thats a reasonable assumtion.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Less resources slows production.
BTW why do you think they are over two years behind schedule?
You still seem convinced that if someone has the skill and tools that they'd gladly refurbish a Porsch if they weren't into Mustangs. Not everyone is so eclectic.
However, there may be some modelers, artists, etc. that do have interests in more than one TW sim (I, as a player, have interest in 4 of them). And yes ... if they wanted to work on both (or more) then they'd either have to manage their time and put in alot of effort to do so simultaneously or ... concentrate on one or the other. But that's their decision (and really the only element even remotely related to your argument that TW:K's slow progress is due to player/developers using TW for their own particular projects). But blaming the developers/contributors of one TW for the slow progress of another TW is really more akin to blaming football fans for the poor turnout at baseball games.
Seriously ... if the entire TW:K team decided to hop on the TW:Teurel bandwagon ... would you applaud?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Lets say they are more MORE passionate about WWI than thy are passionate about korea.
Why do you asuume that they will forgo any and all opprtunities to pursue their Korea passion bacuse their WWI passion is stronger?
Your whole model still hinges that one area is absolute over all others - particularly you imply that one will forgo lesser passions alltogther if the primary one is somehow unavailable. I dont think thats a reasonable assumtion.
Actually ... it sounds amazingly like what you're complaining about. Targetware isn't just Target:Korea. Many think that's a good thing. ;)
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I'm pissed off that after years and years that they have deliverd nothing except four unfinished projects pulling in wildly opposite directions.
If they at targetware focused and marketed better they coulfd have recruited the volunteer talent to have this thing done years ago.
.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Lets say they are more MORE passionate about WWI than thy are passionate about korea.
Why do you asuume that they will forgo any and all opprtunities to pursue their Korea passion bacuse their WWI passion is stronger?
Your whole model still hinges that one area is absolute over all others - particularly you imply that one will forgo lesser passions alltogther if the primary one is somehow unavailable. I dont think thats a reasonable assumtion.
Well, now we're splitting hairs. Of course it's possible for people to be passionate about two genre's of flight sims, and theoretically they might work on the one that they feel less passionate about if the opportunity for work on the sim that they feel the most passionate about is not available.
But I still think you're wrong in this case! :D
Ok, I'm out of this discussion. I'm going to head over to SW's place and have a beer with his animals. :cool:
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I think you should demand your money back.
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Originally posted by Arlo
I think you should demand your money back.
LOL :)
Pretty much sums up the whole thread. :)
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Of course I'm being particular on that point - you guys are insiting on an "all or nothing" model.
:)
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If I were to work on flight sim mods these days it would probably be for SFP1 which is a more complete and polished product with a lot of eager 3d modellers and skinners at work. Really fertile ground for a Vietnam add-on (HINT HINT HINT). But at this point, I'm sick of the genre, too impatient, and have too short of an attention span to really contribute anything substantial. And I'm not restive, just calling a spade a spade
Admittedly, I haven't been keeping up on Strike Fighters recently. But my general reaction....
Nahhhhh.
For one its very bug ridden, with limited multiplay capability. And while its developers keep promising updates and improvements, its my understanding that the game is in "maintenance" mode at best. And Strategy First (the publisher I believe) has a history of pushing projects out the door unfinished and leaving them that way. No profit in sticking with a project/box game like that.
Its also my understanding that for some reason the developer was against doing a Vietnam sim, but thats just what some of the guys doing mods over there said.
My toys may never see the light of day. But I'm having fun building them. Who the hell cares if anyone else ever plays with them :p :p I had my fun in the creation.
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Ok Grun
As an ex volunteer here I spent roughly 4 months of my own time making the ki-45, another few weeks researching and creating the skin template. I work 12-14 hour days and would work a few hours each week on the project. I bought books on japanese aircraft because that is where my interested lied.
I John have no interest in wasting my free time on the other project I have no interest in. I like all flight sims but WW2 is my cup of tea. I learn rhino, 3d studio max 3 and 4 which took alot of time itself.
I came to targetware in the very begining and voluteered for the rabual project because that is where my interest lies. At no time did someone leave TR to work on TK or vice versa.
I have worked with them on and off for a couple of years, due to limitataions of my own time (starting my own company etc.)
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Originally posted by Vermillion
Admittedly, I haven't been keeping up on Strike Fighters recently. But my general reaction....
Nahhhhh.
For one its very bug ridden, with limited multiplay capability. And while its developers keep promising updates and improvements, its my understanding that the game is in "maintenance" mode at best. And Strategy First (the publisher I believe) has a history of pushing projects out the door unfinished and leaving them that way. No profit in sticking with a project/box game like that.
Its also my understanding that for some reason the developer was against doing a Vietnam sim, but thats just what some of the guys doing mods over there said.
My toys may never see the light of day. But I'm having fun building them. Who the hell cares if anyone else ever plays with them :p :p I had my fun in the creation.
Actually I don't find it to be very buggy. I haven't tried multiplayer though. Then again, I've pretty much given up on multiplayer sims for providing a historical simulation. There just aren't enough pilots out there with the knowledge/excessive free time/motivation to do it right.
I find it to be a pretty good simulation of Vietnam era combat. Red Crown, GCI controlled MiGs, etc. Read "Clashes" and then fly a few air superiority missions in the F-4B. It's uncanny. Ground clutter, narrow missile envelopes, IFF problems when using the radar, slow missile launch procedures, smokey American planes visible from far away, difficulty of disengaging on low fuel, etc.
And they have lots of guys pumping out great 3D models and skins. Name a significant bird from Rolling Thunder or Linebacker and they've built it already. If only there were a few guys with the technical skills to make accurate flight models/weapons/avionics for those new models. ;)
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LOL funkypants! Your little grudge is overtaking your charming personality.
And "Focus shifted" may not be the right term. The TR people are just progressing faster than the TK team. So be it.
I'm hoping it all comes out because I want to see what happens when all those "volunteers" start see the game making money for someone and they aren't getting any of it. It will be like communism all over again. The masses get to work hard just to survive while the few reap the benificts with a dacha in the forest.
MiniD
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I don't have a grudge. That would imply I have been wronged somehow. I have a difference of opinion.
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This is more stupid than my 'I am gay' thread and not nearly as entertaining.
You people are all dull!
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None of us are as flamboyant as you Dowding....
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I can back Narsus up there. As a contributor to TR, I have no desire/time/energy/interest in inputting to the other TW varieties. It seems that there is a basic misconception here about the structure of the TW family that others have tried (unsuccessfully) to correct. I will not offer anything further on that as minds are already made up. Needless to say, even some people exposed to the philosophy, like Funky, can't understand or disagree with it & thats fine. Opinions are like *******s, everyone got one ;)
I can tell you that the open beta for TR draws near. Don't beleive me ?? Heard it all before ?? Hehe, I don't give a rats, BUT I DO like what I see & test every week ;)
Consider this; in the past six months TR has progressed further with features/aircraft/scenarios/ than either AH or WBs. All done by volunteers (bar one), in their free time.
Here's an offer for you Grunherz. Come join my little Scenario Design Team for TR. You don't need programming or 3D skills. You just have to be passionate about WW2 aircraft/history, be able to use a simple program, be able to read, & be able to google. I need good people to help get this fantastic sim "out there". What say you Sir ?? !! :)
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No time to help out much- just got a new job that will keep me very busy plus I have other hobbies that take preference.
So any commitment would be very limited - but do tell me what you have in mind I'm curious.
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Email me.
baders@bigpond.net.au
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Originally posted by baders
I can back Narsus up there. As a contributor to TR, I have no desire/time/energy/interest in inputting to the other TW varieties. It seems that there is a basic misconception here about the structure of the TW family that others have tried (unsuccessfully) to correct. I will not offer anything further on that as minds are already made up. Needless to say, even some people exposed to the philosophy, like Funky, can't understand or disagree with it & thats fine. Opinions are like *******s, everyone got one ;)
I can tell you that the open beta for TR draws near. Don't beleive me ?? Heard it all before ?? Hehe, I don't give a rats, BUT I DO like what I see & test every week ;)
Consider this; in the past six months TR has progressed further with features/aircraft/scenarios/ than either AH or WBs. All done by volunteers (bar one), in their free time.
Here's an offer for you Grunherz. Come join my little Scenario Design Team for TR. You don't need programming or 3D skills. You just have to be passionate about WW2 aircraft/history, be able to use a simple program, be able to read, & be able to google. I need good people to help get this fantastic sim "out there". What say you Sir ?? !! :)
(Raises had)
Oh! Pick me! Pick me! Scenarios! Right up my alley! :D
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Sorry, no landgrab GV porkfests in TW. :)
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Originally posted by baders
Here's an offer for you Grunherz. Come join my little Scenario Design Team for TR. You don't need programming or 3D skills. You just have to be passionate about WW2 aircraft/history, be able to use a simple program, be able to read, & be able to google. I need good people to help get this fantastic sim "out there". What say you Sir ?? !! :)
Ok ... I get it. I see what it takes to get an invite to join the TR Scenario Design Team ...
Targetware ain't ever gonna finish nuthin' at the rate they're goin'! There's too many different TW versions! Not enough people workin' together to get things done! Target Korea is 2 years overdue! It's all vaporware! Open beta my ARSE! Targetware is a scam! They're ripping us all off! That or they're not working together so ... they're ripping us off!
So there! [/size][/color]
(waits patiently for invitation to join the TR scenario design team.)
:D
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Thats better Arlo :D send me an email buddy baders@bigpond.net.au
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GRUNHERZ:
It seems you don't understand targetware philosophy. It's an engine with open source. Anyone can do his own sim based on that engine.
I'm member of Target Spain (definitive name still beeing discussed at project portal http://scw.webcindario.com/ there is an english translation option at the bottom right side). These project starts three months ago or so with intention to create a sim for Il2 engine, but we had no answer fron Oleg and, seening that TW welcome us, we've changed.
Target Spain is beeng developed by a group of Spanish simmers, and we are not interested on making TK or TR. Take it as different people working on different projects, but using the same engine.
In conclusion, efforts are not divided, because if we don't work on TS project, we are not going to work on any other project. People has his work and his family and freetime is not infinite.
I don't know if i've explained myself well enought.
(sorry about my english)
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Originally posted by baders
Here's an offer for you Grunherz. Come join my little Scenario Design Team for TR. You don't need programming or 3D skills. You just have to be passionate about WW2 aircraft/history, be able to use a simple program, be able to read, & be able to google. I need good people to help get this fantastic sim "out there". What say you Sir ?? !! :)
Well if you are Interested I would like to contribute some time.
These is the partial list of skills I do have.
Ceritifed pilot with SEL ticket.
I am a network work admin with knowlege of IP networking, some knowlege of UNIX/FREEBSD setting up
Apache server and other apps.
Used to be an CAD/CAM drafter, AUTOCAD, CADKEY etc.. I would be very willing to learn modeling.
I very much know how to google.. for researching information.
Any rate, I can be reached at
chitownflyer@ameritech.net
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ChiTownFlyer
Where exactly are your interests focused ? 3D Modeling, 2D Art, Flight Models, Scenarios, Network related? What era... WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam?
In any community related project, there is always a search for volunteers. I would suggest you head over to their BBS and volunteer there, as many of the people you would need to talk too do not read this BBS.
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hmm and here I thought ver.51 was a pretty nice update. go figger
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My my it seems I am late to the party.
I put the Target Flanders team together and THEN proposed the project for inclusion in the Targetware closed beta. Target Flanders did NOT take ANY (0) beta testers/contributers "away" from Target Korea or Target Rabaul. We entered the closed beta as a team, and it is most likely that none of us would even have been selected as closed beta testers without the Target Flanders proposal.
In fact, it can easily be argued that the addition of Target Flanders to the Targetware closed beta significantly contributed to the process and has helped bring about the Targetware open beta sooner rather than later. A number of targetware engine problems and MAJOR bugs were first uncovered when WWI aircraft were tested. These problems would likely have remained hidden at least into the open beta, and perhaps further down the road, or they would have caused inexplicable, unnacountable failures which no one could track down.
I can categorically say that without Target Flanders, the Targetware engine would not be as polished as it is now.
Well, I hope that clarifies a few things.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
My take on it is the pool of people with the neccesary skills are running around doing whatever they fancy instead of there being some directed effort. Having flanders and rabaul and the new spanish war one doesnt not mean most or all people working on them would not have any interest in working on Korea - it likely means they prefer doing those over Korea. And frankly since they all draw resources from the same rather limited pool of flight sim enthusiats with appropriat programming/drawing skills and (in)sufficient free time any cool new target: (instert personal fantasy combat flight sim area) project just reduces the number of people and time available to work on any of the others. Now I'm for freedom of choice but I fear with new variants and mods popping up that the talent pool will be diluted and none of this will ever come to frution for outsiders to see.
I might be wrong and maybe this is all going great, and I hope it is, but hell how long has Korea been in the works and what do they have to publicly show for it...
When will the show us the goods?
I'd like to help but I have no skills to program computers. :(
Think of it as TargetWare being the core program and the other stuff like Korea, Rabaul, Flanders, etc., as mods to the core program. Just like what you see with games like UT2003, Half-Life, etc. The guys that make each mod aren't a central group but rather different groups making different mods for TargetWare. So the guys working on Flanders don't work on Rabaul and the guys working on Rabaul don't work on Korea, unless they are also part of that particular mod team. This has nothing to do with disorganization or incompetence on any one party.
It's pretty simple to grasp if you take the time to wipe those tears from your eyes.
ack-ack