Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: beet1e on July 01, 2003, 07:48:20 AM
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I went on a walking/hiking holiday in Italy last week. It was excellent. Some of the hiking was in the mountains above 9000', and could be a bit tiring, but we all enjoyed it.
I met about six Yanks! I was surprised to see so many on this trip. Four came from Hawaii, one was from CA (somewhere between Santa Monica and Santa Barbara) and one was from Sante Fé,NM. I hit it off with the Californian instantly. He was a real character, and easy to get on with. So I was dying to know what he thought about guns, and whether he had one. I began by asking him if he felt safe in a country like Italy, where the general public is unarmed, and added that I knew some folks are fanatical about protecting themselves with guns. I've already donned the asbestos because what he said is not going to go down well. But I put my hand on my heart and say that I have added no embellishments.
On feeling safe in Italy - "I prefer being around the British and other Europeans more than the Americans".
When asked about gun ownership, he answered by saying "well you have to understand that I did not vote for the Bush administration..." Hmmph - can someone explain that to me?
Do you have a gun? "I have a pistol" - he did a kind of rolleyes as he got to the word "pistol", and then we looked at eachother, each gauging the other's reaction. OK then... about this pistol: "I brought it home, read the instructions, and since then it's never been out of its box" Do you go to a firing range? Nope. Practise shooting? Nope. Hmm. Turns out this gentleman lives on a three acre property, and feels isolated, and somewhere along the line got talked into buying the pistol. He didn't say what make or model. He did think it was absurd that anyone would want to kill him personally.
So we shall stay in touch! I have been invited to join the CA gentleman on another hiking trip in the English Lake District later on in the summer. I hope to be there. :)
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Beetle,
I fail to find the point behind what you were saying? Is it that you feel the rest of the Americans that own guns are evil people just aiming to gun every one else down, or that the Bush administration is solely responsible for the rise in gun sales, you like to hike?, or is it that Europe is a safer / better place because there are less guns.
Point by point,
As a gun owner, I have never, nor do I intend on doing anything illicit with the weapons I own, my sole purpose for owning 95% of them is to enjoy going to the range and the ilk, the 5% I have for self defence are inspired by the wonderous latin americans that live in this area who would rather beat you with a pipe, or shoot you with a stolen gun to get the $200.00 in your pocket... guess that's my fault too.
The Bush administration has done less for gun ownership than the previous administration. If you think his refusal to resign into law the rediculous Clinton inspired attempted ban on assault weapons was wrong, maybe you should look at that law. The "ban" Clinton put into law did three simple things, drove the price up on weapons imported before the the time frame of the law, 1989 I believe. Allowed the gun dealers to sell at higher prices, to rake in more prices and thereby import more weapons for sale with an even better profit margin, it also spawned a whole generation of changing assault weapons in subtle ways so to beat the ban, done mainly by European and Chinese gun companies. Lastly, it also increased the crime rate for such weapons, not because they were used in crimes, but because they were stolen more often reflecting there higher "street value."
Glad you like to hike, it is a relaxing sport, and while trying at times gives a great sence of accomplishment.
I really do not feel Europe is in any way safer than the US, as a point of fact, there are sao many places in Europe that I would not feel safe, even in a damn Abrams tank. At least in the US, I understand the playing field, I know that as a general rule, South Central discluded, that I am not going to be jumped, and / or shot so long as I follow a simple guideline of covering my actions, having a plan, and not acting like a gawking tourist. Ohh, and another nifty little tidbit, the use of weapons last year in crimes in my area alone was committed by 58% illegal latin americans, 21% imported eastern eurotrash, the rest, just americans... I wonder where the problems really exist....
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
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people who voted against the bush administration. hes probly using that as a tactfull way to say he is not a conservative republican.
its pretty much with the team brain off believe in wmd and the importance of the "terror war" other "bushisms" and the party line. gun ownership unrestrained in any way no matter what. against leagle abortion. ect ect
or not.
hes sayin hes against them tactfully.
p.s. been to europe felt alot safer there also.
p.s. own a smallish armory all but one inherited. could throw the pistols into the sea for all i care. rifles staying.
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Was his name Alec Baldwin?
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He still believes people here give a rats bellybutton about him, his "holidays" or his fascinating life stories.
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"somewhere between Santa Monica and Santa Barbara" on a 3 acre estate?
This guy can afford to pay someone to carry the gun for him.
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Go Fxck yourself Beetle, you are still an American bashing piece of shxt in my eyes.
I have been to Italy too, and I didnt feel any safer than in the USA. Doesnt England have some stiff gun laws? Seems like London isn't the safest place I have ever been.
I can walk out of my door at 2am and go anywhere in my city I like and I don't feel even a little threatened.
Freaking hugahunk, go back to your pub and get drunk again.
Dago
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Beetle has hit on a trolling method that is beyond amazing. All he has to do is tell a story about something.. he drew no conclusions BTW, and people in here feel the need to rip off his head and spit in the neck hole.
Funny.
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Hey Beetle,
You mentioned that...................
"Four came from Hawaii, one was from CA (somewhere between Santa Monica and Santa Barbara) and one was from Sante Fé,NM"
In case you were not familiar with the lay of the land (USA). The places you mentioned, California and Hawaii are two of the most liberal states in the Union. That dosnt mean they are automaticly anti-gun, but the odds are they lean that way. Its been 10 years since I have been to Sante Fe, but it is heavily populated with semi-wealthy artist and writers. A group that also tends to trend to the left.
Anyhow I hope you had a good time on your vacation... My vacation will be spent working on the honey do's and fixing up the garage LOL.
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Oh, I wouldn't go so far as to say the Beet1e's post was totally innocent. ;)
I bet he would be an entertaining hiking pal - friendly, talkative, enthusiastic, perhaps a bit inflammatory on certain of his pet peeves - but overall, good company. :)
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Hah! I didn't expect to get all these replies - thanks guys. :) I will answer some of them.
Bodhi! Just telling it like it is/was - no hidden agenda. No real *point* to make; just saying... sometimes I think the BBS brings out the worst in some of us, but in person, things can be very different. Some might find it difficult to believe that I have actually been very well received in America.
MT ;) Isn't Oxnard between Santa Monica and Santa Barbara?
Krusher In case you were not familiar with the lay of the land (USA). The places you mentioned, California and Hawaii are two of the most liberal states in the Union.
Yes, I am sort of familiar with the lie of the land in CA. I used to live there. IIRC, CA used to be a Republican stronghold. I guess that was in the Nixon period.
Gunthr! hehe, thanks for those kind words. :)
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Oxnard is, just south of Ventura. If he has 3 acres in that area he is doing alright.
Near Point Mugu NAS BTW.
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Anyone who owns a gun for 'protection' and only read the instruction and left the gun in the box is an idiot. A dangerous idiot who is likely to get himself hurt.
If you own a gun you need to know how to use it. You also need to practice with it so that you are familiar with it and the way it should perform.
Let's say said idiot is getting his house robbed. He pulls the gun out of the box under his bed and proceeds to threaten the bugler. The burgler, realizing that the safety is still on, takes the gun from said idiot. Then the burgler shots our idiot.
If you are not going to learn how to use a weapon then don't own it. Give it to the cops or a relative who likes guns. Having it in your house is very dangerous. And lock up the weapon and keep the ammo seperate. Children have a way of finding these things.
Owning a gun is serious business and most gun enthusiasts are responsible. It's the idiots who own them and don't know enough about them that causes many of the accidents.
*getting of soapbox now*
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Portion of an article from today's LA Times:
Santa Barbara's south coast stretches 25 miles from Carpinteria to Goleta. Between those communities are the super-rich areas of Montecito and Hope Ranch, along with the city of Santa Barbara itself.
May's 9.1% increase (in home prices) was higher than in any other region of the state. And the median home price of $900,000 dwarfed both the statewide median of $369,290 and the Los Angeles region median of $332,210, according to the realty association.
Santa Barbara County leaders increasingly have expressed concern that rising home prices are driving out the middle class.
Capps suggested that Congress act to provide more tax credits for affordable housing development and to increase loan limits to help middle-class home buyers. But there is little chance of that happening at a time when federal housing programs for the "poorest of the poor" are being cut, she said. "In this political climate, it would be extremely difficult to gain support in Congress for shifting any of the remaining housing funding away from helping the poorest families," she added.
One expert on the state's housing market, Mark Schneipp, director of the California Economic Forecast in Santa Barbara, said another clear need at the federal level is "some new definition of what affordability is" in Santa Barbara and other cities with fast-rising housing costs. Federal housing guidelines typically reserve affordable housing for families earning 80% or less of the area's median income. In Santa Barbara, that is about $47,000 for a family of four. Families with significantly higher incomes are not eligible for federal help.
"People here who are making $100,000 to $200,000 a year can't afford to live here now, so something is clearly out of whack," he said. "But the reality is that government can't really do much here except rezone the south coast wherever possible" to open up more land for housing tracts.
The May jump to $900,000 in the south coast area was not totally unexpected, Schneipp said, adding that it had "been stuck at about $825,000" for months.
Already, houses in Santa Barbara priced at the $1-million mark often sell in a day or two, local real estate brokers say. For that, a buyer can expect a home of 1,800 square feet or more, maybe three bedrooms, and hardwood floors.
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It's nice to know that my humble $180,000.00 house in Surprise is worth over a million in CA. Hopefully, when I put it on the market, there will be a nice California family who wants to buy it. I'll sell it to the at the bargain price of $750,000.00
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"I prefer being around the British and other Europeans more than the Americans".
Kind of says it all right there. Typical elitist limo liberal.
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"Why Britian needs more guns" Link to Article (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/2656875.stm)
"You are now six times more likely to be mugged in London than New York."
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(http://cagle.slate.msn.com/news/NRA2002/NRA2002gifs/cam81399_nra_shootings.gif)
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(http://cagle.slate.msn.com/news/NRA2002/NRA2002gifs/NRA42.jpg)
hehe
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Originally posted by Otto
"Why Britian needs more guns" Link to Article (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/2656875.stm)
"You are now six times more likely to be mugged in London than New York."
And the number of persons carrying handguns in NY is ???????
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Midnight, the answers is (execpt for gangs and thugs) "not enough"
The Difference Between a Liberal and Conservative:
Question: You're walking down a deserted street with your wife and two small children. Suddenly, a dangerous looking man with a huge knife comes around the corner and is running at you while screaming obscenities. In your hand is a Glock .17 and you are an expert shot. You have mere seconds before he reaches you and your family. What do you do? _____________________________ _____________________________ ________
Liberal Answer:
Well, that's not enough information to answer the question! Does the man look poor or oppressed? Could he use the money I was selfishly planning on spending on our dinner tonight? Have my ancestors or I ever done anything to him that is inspiring him to attack? What do I need to say to reason with this clearly distressed man? Could we run away? Would it make me a "gender-racist" to make this decision unilaterally without input from my wife? What does my wife think? What about the kids? Could I possibly swing the gun like a club and knock the knife out of his hand? What does the law say about this situation? Does he definitely want to kill me or would he just be content to wound me? Am I placing my value system on him...am I profiling him or "pre-judging" his intent to harm us? If I were to grab his knees and hold on, could my family get away while he was stabbing me? This is all so confusing! I need to debate this with some friends down at Starbucks over a cherry latte to try to come to a conclusion. _____________________________ _____________________________ __
Conservative Answer:
BANG….!
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New York’s Sullivan Act just makes your point concerning London kinda silly. Both places have severe gun comtrol.
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You are now six times more likely to be mugged in London than New York. Why? Because as common law appreciated, not only does an armed individual have the ability to protect himself or herself but criminals are less likely to attack them. They help keep the peace. A study found American burglars fear armed home-owners more than the police. As a result burglaries are much rarer and only 13% occur when people are at home, in contrast to 53% in England.
This data probablity excludes California.
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Burglary Ain't Mugging!
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depends on what part of europe your in. northern italy is damn safe as is most of france germany and england. but like the US if you go into blue collar citys that lose their industrys prepare to get robbed. like detroit newark brussels eastern europe etc.
of course japan is bizzare. most people dont even bother locking their doors in huge citys like tokyo. the level of any kind of crime there is so low its almost non exsistent.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Beetle has hit on a trolling method that is beyond amazing. All he has to do is tell a story about something.. he drew no conclusions BTW, and people in here feel the need to rip off his head and spit in the neck hole.
Funny.
Now say it in your very best Bruce Lee accent... It is the awt of twolling widdout twolling. :D
Hilarious stuff Beet1e... the story is boring as hell, but the reactions are always entertaining.
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Originally posted by Otto
You are now six times more likely to be mugged in London than New York. Why? Because as common law appreciated, not only does an armed individual have the ability to protect himself or herself but criminals are less likely to attack them. They help keep the peace. A study found American burglars fear armed home-owners more than the police. As a result burglaries are much rarer and only 13% occur when people are at home, in contrast to 53% in England.
Otto, I agree with your statement - in part. In the mid 1990s I was working in London, and also spent a great deal of time in New York. Yes, I actually felt safer in New York, and have expressed this to many people I know. But I do not agree that it's because people are allowed to walk around with guns in New York. (Is NY a conceal/carry state?) The real reason is policing. Britain is cutting back on policing to save money. Tony Blair's government has got itself into a pickle because the existing tax structure cannot support its spending plans, and they don't want to raise income tax. So they implement "stealth taxes" and cutbacks - and policing is one. My village used to have a police station - not any more. The council claims we can't even afford a traffic warden - so the village is blighted with illegal parking. Our jails are full, so Lord avacadoHead Derry Irvine has been urging judges not to send burglars to jail. And corporal punishment was abolished in schools in 1986 - followed by a collapse in discipline and a steep rise in juvenile crime - car break-ins, joy riding etc.
Compare that with New York - many more (33%) police officers deployed on the streets of NYC under the Giuliani-Bratton partnership. You'd see them everywhere - street corners, down the subways, on the trains, always in pairs... Many a time coming up from the W 86th St. subway stop (1 & 9 line) I would see police with a suspect in handcuffs. The NY police took a very tough line - even guys urinating in the street would get carted off.
Sure, the NY police are armed, but so are many London police these days. And of the many, many people I met in New York, not one single one owned a gun. I gues I was amongst a bunch of typical elitist limo liberals - LOL.
New York may be safer (up to about 107th Street) than London, but I don't agree that it's because of arming the citizens. The key is policing, and a tough stance on quality of life and other relatively minor crimes. The theory is that this will deter people from moving on to more major crimes, and the results would seem to bear out this theory.
Sandman! It's the reaction that counts! ;) My attention seeking has been well sated in this thread - muhahahaha. :D
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Beetle - you'll find that you are more likely to go to prison for burgalry etc than ever before. Our prisons are bursting because a) they were built 200 years ago and are crap and b) we are sending more people there, and cutting back on community sentences.
Still, if the shrecking police spent more time catching shrecking burglars instead of handing out shrecking speeding tickets I'd be alot happier. I got tagged by a mobile speedtrap van last week -within three days of the offence, they had a Notice of Intention to Prosecute on my doormat. Extremely efficient. Compare and contrast with the theft of a bike from my dad's shed a couple of years ago. It took the police 4 days for them to send anyone round - who then turned out to be a standard plod - who basically said they had zero chance of doing anything about it.
Did you know that SVVD cameras are being installed up and down our motorways? These actually record license plates as part of their operation (basically they record a car's time between two points of a known distance to calculate speed - a gate system), and add these to a central database. So basically, the government can effectively track a vehicle as it moves up and down the country as part of 'speed limit law enforcement'.
The British motorist. The most taxed and penalised people anywhere on the planet.
/rant off.
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You are now six times more likely to be mugged in London than New York. Why?
Because New York has approx the same population as London, but has 40,000 policemen compared to 27,000 in London.
New York may be safer (up to about 107th Street) than London
Depends how you define safer. New York still has a far higher murder rate than London.
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Nashwan,
Without checking, I thought the population of NYC was closer to 18m. Remember that NYC is not just Manhattan Island - the bit the tourists go to. There's Brooklyn, Staten Island, Bronx and Queens. These boroughs account for millions of people, but they're all part of NYC. Brooklyn used to be a separate city, but became part of NYC in 1906.
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The state of New York has a population of about 19m. NYC has a population of around 7 - 8m.
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Still, if the shrecking police spent more time catching shrecking burglars instead of handing out shrecking speeding tickets I'd be alot happier. I got tagged by a mobile speedtrap van last week -within three days of the offence, they had a Notice of Intention to Prosecute on my doormat. Extremely efficient. Compare and contrast with the theft of a bike from my dad's shed a couple of years ago. It took the police 4 days for them to send anyone round - who then turned out to be a standard plod - who basically said they had zero chance of doing anything about it.- Dowding
Oh c'mon, Dowding! You're talking like somebody who just got a traffic ticket! :D
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the story was pointless except to point out that beetle attracts idiots of all nations.
Anyone who buys a gun and doesn't learn how to use it is an idiot.
lazs
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he did a kind of rolleyes as he got to the word "pistol", and then we looked at eachother, each gauging the other's reaction.
Do you own a convertible beet1e?
MiniD
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I had fun, did you? :D