Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Citabria on May 09, 2001, 09:02:00 PM
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bad
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But how would anyone ever find a fight??
I'm skeeerd!
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Mista T and the whole A-Team is here to make a fight. We can't shoot straight and don't kill no one, but my fists bust you up real good.
fool!
-SW
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Just remember what happens when Mr. T gets in an airplane.
Drex
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i thought id just pop in to say its funny the fist 4 ppl to all post in this thread are all excellent sticks (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Yup, agree.
Ive allways been against inflight Dar, should be from Tower only or from any plane equiped with it in WWII. And the planes so equiped should be limited to 1 sector of Dar info.
Dog out.....
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If you don't want dar, just don't open your clipboard. Surprise, there is no dar in your plane then.
Mav
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I think this is a good idea...at least removing the dot dar in flight, even if the sector bars stay. Not sure if it'd be better or worse, but I'd like to see (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
SOB
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I totally agree. And this coming from an average stick... me... drop the inflight DAR .
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Yep, drop the radar dots in flight. Keep the sector bars but only if they don't show ground targets, and it's possible to fly low enough to avoid detection.
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Baaah!
You guys heard maverick. All you gotta do is turn your radar off. HTC needs to hire this guy. Genius at work I tell ya.
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Yeah what Blair said!!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hey blair about that $5.00 you wanted.......
Mav
[This message has been edited by Maverick (edited 05-10-2001).]
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Yep, drop the Dot radar & revamp the Bar counter.
Pepe
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yeah... let's just ratchet up the boredom factor another notch so that those who spend a goodly portion of their time online have one more advantage that they have "earned". We certainly want to keep the game evolving and the learning curve rising.... Keeps out the riff raff... Hey... if you haven't got a couple 4 hours to spend online then maybe you don't deserve a good fite? Heck the "real" pilots didn't see a fite for a whole tour someimes.
lazs
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hmm..
How about comprimising things a bit?
1) Get rid of individual radar contact dots for both friendly and hostile forces 2)make radar bar indicate size of enemy forces for not 1 sector, but 4(2x2) sectors
That way, there still is radar information enough to find action, but it is four sectors and you don't know both the location of enemy and friendly. This would necessiate people of same countries to contact each other working in the 2x2 square more often than we do currently(since, flying alone for four sectors would reduce your chances for both surviving AND finding the enemy).
More chance of survival for buff pilots would encourage them to fly more often/aggresively, and more buffs to be searched within four sectors would also mean more need for organized caps and less meaningless gang-bang furballs.
And, the sector radio channel could be changed to the 'tactical sector communication', (1 tactical sector = 4 normal sectors) to add more convienience.
Anyway, the point is to change something so that people still have enough guidance for flight/finding fights, but stop them from engaging and gangbanging in to just 1 airfield with instant access to information.
I think my idea can solve some of those problems, plus, it would be relatively easy for HTC to change programming.
What do you people think about it?
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hmm..
How about comprimising things a bit?
1) Get rid of individual radar contact dots for both friendly and hostile forces 2)make radar bar indicate size of enemy forces for not 1 sector, but 4(2x2) sectors
That way, there still is radar information enough to find action, but it is four sectors and you don't know both the location of enemy and friendly. This would necessiate people of same countries to contact each other working in the 2x2 square more often than we do currently(since, flying alone for four sectors would reduce your chances for both surviving AND finding the enemy).
More chance of survival for buff pilots would encourage them to fly more often/aggresively, and more buffs to be searched within four sectors would also mean more need for organized caps and less meaningless gang-bang furballs.
And, the sector radio channel could be changed to the 'tactical sector communication', (1 tactical sector = 4 normal sectors) to add more convienience.
Anyway, the point is to change something so that people still have enough guidance for flight/finding fights, but stop them from engaging and gangbanging in to just 1 airfield with instant access to information.
I think my idea can solve some of those problems, plus, it would be relatively easy for HTC to change programming.
What do you people think about it?
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In flight dar lessens the learning curve for newbies, game is tough enough for them already.
If it goes, we will be bombarded with chat on channel 1 and 2.
Sax
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Originally posted by lazs:
yeah... let's just ratchet up the boredom factor another notch so that those who spend a goodly portion of their time online have one more advantage that they have "earned". We certainly want to keep the game evolving and the learning curve rising.... Keeps out the riff raff... Hey... if you haven't got a couple 4 hours to spend online then maybe you don't deserve a good fite? Heck the "real" pilots didn't see a fite for a whole tour someimes.
lazs
Do you ever stop whining? Truly the most pathetic person on this BBS board.
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ya gotta admit, laz knows what he wants and sticks by it. I suggest another compromise, No dot dar, bar dar for sectors except for A/C under 500' and GVs. Laz and everyone who wants it, checks off and has a pulsating purple dot on the map so everyone can find Them (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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LOL JimBear! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
That was a really nice reverse of the worn point "If you don't want Dot Radar, don't use the clipboard!" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
S!
Cheers,
Pepe
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Keep the sector bars but only if they don't show ground targets
Sorry, but this is a very bad idea in regards to the ground targets.
The one thing that should always show as a deflection on bar-dar is ground targets. If not, there really is no way to prevent a panzer from "sneaking" into a base and taking it down. The only way to prevent it would be for people to sit in panzers waiting for them to show up, or people sitting in the tower trying to spot them.
Think guys.
This isn't about making base captures easier. Its strange that it seems this is the primary motive for losing the dar. Of course, Cit just wants anything that makes hanging out over someone's base a little bit easier. No flak and no dar... just 20k vulching.
AKDejaVu
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Make the sector bars modal:
i.e. hit a key the sector bars represent only aircraft, hit that key again they represent vehicles only, then watercraft only and then it toggles back to everything.
Hooligan
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Ok , no dar , and no icons .. that would mean each country would need to fly their own AC . Biscuits = LW ,, Knights = US ,, Rooks = Nipon .
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Deja,
I agree GV's should show on counter bar. I would suggest to use another colour to distinguish between air and ground cons.
I do not know what Cit wants, but for sure this request is not in favour of just 20k vulching. It is well in the opposite field. It is allowing NOE flights, it is allowing sneak attacks, It is allowing more utility to the clouds as hiding factor, It is having a better feel of what were the actual conditions in WWII, It is stimulating teamwork and cooperative work, It is adding a new "vehicle" and a new weapon....no, definitely not just 20k vulching.
Cheers,
Pepe.
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You don’t want dar… Do what Mav said; don’t use your clipboard.
This sounds strikingly familiar to the “hey we shouldn’t have icons in the training arena” (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
Zippatuh
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You want to use dar, do what JimBear said. Ask that you alone has visible dot radar, so anyone can find you (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
This sound strikingly familiar to the "hey, let us ease this thingy. It's too hard to find a fight"
Pepe
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I think more people want to remove, at the very least, inflight dot-dar.
If the game caters only to newbies then it'll get stale quickly. Newbies just need to team up and improve their skills. It's all part of learning to play.
I don't hear WB guys complaining about lack of inflight dar and they have the largest palyer base of all online sims.
The argument about newbies leaving or not coming at all just because of dar are weak.
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The "if you don't like the inflight dar, don't open your clipboard" isn't a solution to the problems perceived by the people asking for removal of the dar. For example, KnightJoe is attempting to hide in the clouds, so he doesn't want in flight dot dar, it gives away his position. How is Joe not opening Joe's clipboard going to stop RookMax from from opening Max's clipboard and getting a pretty good idea of where Joe is?
Deja makes a good point about ground vehicles. They'd have a really easy time sneaking up on things if they didn't show up in the Bar Dar, especially on this map. "keep your planes out of x,y sector. We'll take some GVs through there, no bars, they won't know we're coming until we're there!"
My stance? Bar dar should be inflight, that's no different than getting an update from a tower. "Enemy cons are active in sector x,y" Dot dar shouldn't be active inflight continuously. There isn't a verbal equivalent for that. There's no way a person in a tower can tell you continuously (and instantaneously) where ONE contact is, let alone multiple cons. Also, take out the swiveling icon showing your heading in the map, that's what the compass in your plane is for. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Tower dar stays like it is now.
Gameplay concessions... ALL Inflight dots stay, but are updated every X seconds. (X because I don't know what a good number would be. 15, 30, 60???) A step more towards the sim aspect, but still keeping gameplay concessions would be no enemy dots inflight, but friendly dots stay (continuous or interval updated). A step more would be only your squaddies/wingmen/missionmates would show up on the inflight.
And then the weirdest compromise I just came up with... This is to satisfy both the "I want my dots to find fights" and "dots help SA, and we don't want that" groups. Dots stay inflight, BUT disappear when the con gets in Icon range. Meaning you could find the fight, but once engaged, you couldn't pop up the inflight dot dar to see where that bogey went if you lose visual.
I guess that's all for now. If you agree with the ideas, great! If you don't agree, that's great too, just be nice about it! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Not intended as a flame, just to promote discussion or get to issues.
I just don't understand the opposition to dar. I can understand the icon discussions/issues, but what's wrong with dar. I always considered it to be the AI equivalent of WW2 radar, combined with spies, ground observations, and GCI officers all rolled into one. It didn't rely on having someone sit in the tower yelling out commands that nobody would follow anyway. You fly over the front of battle and some grunt on the ground reports it. When you get close to a field then your other observation assests help fix the enemy position.
What's the problem? I'm honestly asking the question. It seems to draw reactions from both side but I just don't understand. Is it a realistic capability from the cockpit, nope, not really, but does everyone want to spend spend there first 30 minutes in the tower feeding info to the pilots? I know I don't, I just want to fly.
-Soda
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The only thing I see here is a vocal minority trying to change the situation for all players. Not everyone that plays AH reads the BBS.
To say newbies should just team up with someone new, give me a break.
What it looks like to me is that some of you are board with the game and want it changed to suit personal needs. Adjustment to the DAR system I can understand in some way, of course depending on what they are. To just out right say its bad and it should be removed is ludicrous. Just about as much as saying, “don’t use your clip board”. I believe that was the point I was trying to make.
It looks like we need another arena. One that has no DAR, no map, no icons, and most likely no players.
Zippatuh
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Agreed Zippa.
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Soda.
IMO the inflight dot-dar creates more gangbanging than without it. It also turns the clouds into eye candy only since you can't really use them to hide in since the opposition can simply 'see' you on dar.
If we keep the inflight dot-dar, why keep the clouds. They only slow down FR.
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my real opposition to in flight radar is only the dots really.. you shouldnt be able to "check your 6" by opening up the clipboard and looking for a red dot near your airplane imo... use the old mk 1 eyeball..
but then again i definitely think we shouldnt remove radra in flight completely, just the dots.
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Reverse-perked dar:
If you have xx perk points, your airborn radar shuts down.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Funny, I don't have too much of a problem with the Dot Dar, except for the fact that it sees through clouds. It's the Bar Dar that I don't like. I think if you drooped the Bars and made the Dots only visible from the tower, it would open up a new area of strategy, by making the radar dishes even more important, and opening the way for such planes as the p-61, Bf-110G, and the whatever variant of the mossie had the radar.
Of course, we could just lobby for a historical arena with realistic Dar, and leave the MA as it is for the people that are "just lookin' for a quick fight" (not that there's anything wrong with that (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Afterthought: Keep the Bar Dar for inflight, but only for cons that are detectable by your countries radar stations. Also, I don't believe there were any ground-detecting radar setups in WWII, GVs should not show up on Dar.
Heck, We could even have air lookouts that could generate system messages when enemy planes overfly them. <System: 4 bomber aircraft sighted high over A55, heading SW>
That would be cool.
Muttz
332 Flying Mongrels
(Muttz Express, When it absolutely has to be there before the ack comes up.)
[This message has been edited by Greg 'wmutt' Cook (edited 05-10-2001).]
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Without the vocal minorities (not just on this one issue, but all issues) where would HTC get input for game updates? How do they know what players want if players don't speak up? I agree with you that the majority of AH players do NOT post on this board. However, every player has the option to do so. It's kinda the same way in the US for politics. Every US citizen has the right to vote (unless the right is revoked), yet not every citizen does vote. It's not the exact same, as the majority of Americans vote, but the principle is still the same. If citizens didn't vote, or didn't lobby, the government wouldn't know what we wanted (not like they always do what we want, but that's a different argument!)
These forums are here for us to share our ideas with each other, and in every case, there will be disagreement. These forums are also used by HTC to see where are interests are and what we think about the current situations.
As for the vocal minority comment, most polls are conducted that way. Gallop (for example) polls maybe 1000 people (out of 250 million!) and use that as a rough gauge of national interest. Think of the people who post on this board as a poll. We are only a percentage of the AH player base, however we are used as HTC's gauge for a rough estimate of what the AH player base wants, thinks is good/bad, etc. BTW, it's like this in other games too. Developers use forums to get feedback from gamers. Ultima Online has well over 100,000 active players. Their forums maybe have 1000 active posters, less than 1% of active players. Origin uses those forums to get feedback on ideas, and believe me, the "vocal minority" HAS influenced changes.
Sorry this got so long, and it's not intended as a flame. It's just intended to show, IMO, that these forums (and this thread) are being used as intended. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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"It looks like we need another arena. One that has no DAR, no map, no icons, and most likely no players.
Zippatuh
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and what we need is a new bbs one with no opinion, no conflict. and no posts right.
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jimbear.. sounds good to me. I don't flatter myself that people would take time out of their oh so important missions just to hunt harmless ol lazs but if you think they would I'm all for it. Heck... if it get's em down and fighting it's gotta be a good thing. I'm sure I would not be the only one pleased by such a move.
At one time I wanted (and we had in WB) the feature of the guys handle showing up when you got close enough. You'd be shocked at all the "great sticks" that were frightened by that one tho.
ag... you aint been around long enough to know the most of anything.
lazs
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Wlfgng:
IMO the inflight dot-dar creates more gangbanging than without it. It also turns the clouds into eye candy only since you can't really use them to hide in since the opposition can simply 'see' you on dar.
I see it the opposite. Someone would be sitting in the tower and saying "the fight is over Axx" and everyone would just fly there looking for the quick fight. I'd say 50% of the people in AH just want to furball anyway. They use the dar to get to the furball faster. Anyone without a squad would fly straight for where the action is, not land every 10 minutes to see where an enemy might be advancing. How many people really come to defend a field when a person calls on country channel it is under attack right now.. maybe a couple if you are lucky. Why think someone directing traffic from the tower would have any more success than that.
I think the icons do more to spoil surprise than the dot dar does though I don't really support removing those unless we get actual depth perception abilities on our monitors at the same time.
What's the real range on dot dar anyway? It's only 12.5 miles or so from an friendly base, isn't it? Visual range with a good set of spotting binoculars?
I can understand the argument for alt considerations on DAR with NOE cons only appearing when closer to target, but not the removal of DAR in it's current form. If you were going to do that then we would need a system that reporting cons as they passed over observation stations, bases that announced they had inbound enemy cons, automated queries to GCI officers, etc...
-Soda
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Pongo – whatever – your missing the point.
Nifty – I understand where your coming from; however, this bulletin board is not a “scientific” sampling of the AH community. Also the flyers in AH do not have a designated voice as in politics. To be truly fair to everyone in the community when changes occur (based on subscribers’ wants), before something changed when logging on to AH you can get a pop up window with a yea nay vote on the subject. Do I want this, hell no. I do not proclaim to know what is best for every situation and I imagine the creators have a better view on the topic. So give it to me and I’ll be happy. I’m trying to play devils advocate here not really anything more.
What is amazing and disturbing at the same time is that we in the AH community have the unique ability to communicate with the creators of the game on, damn near, a daily basis. I would like the BBS community to look at game play from a broader perspective. Understand that the wants communicated on the BBS may not necessarily represent the entire community.
There are a lot of responses to this subject, a few with solutions. That is the angle that I think we should approach this from. “How can we correct it or make it better?” Not, “we should get rid of this because…” In this situation I don’t even think we received a “because”.
Zippatuh
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Frankly I think Zip is right. We are fast approaching the time when, for whatever reason, those screaming for true "realism" need to have a permanent arena.
I will not deny that the MA as it is now is a flying, driving ,sailing quake arena. It is geared for quick combat against another online player. That was the entire premise for having an online game. Getting in the battle to have fun. (anyone not here to have fun needs professional help)
Various "concessions to reality" exist in this game to make it playable.
1. No restrictions on what side you can join.
2. No real restrictions as to what part you can play in this game. Everything from fighter, buff, goon, sailor, gunner to vehicle driver.
3. Instant respawn at the click of a button.
4. Perpetual "banking" of the players perk points. (death doesn't wipe them out)
5. Open plane set. You get YOUR choice as to what you want top fly / drive.
6. No requirement to follow an order or mission with a severe penalty for disobedience or cowardice / or fleeing in the face of the enemy.
7. Radar to take the place of a ground controller ORDERING you to intercept enemy activities.
8. No down time between missions due to battle damage or simple fair wear and tear of equipment.
9. No weather that stops operations.
10. No requirement to work with another player / squad / country instead of doing what you please when you please and how you please.
11. Ability to hit a small target with a bomber from a great altitude.
12. Increased lethality in Buff guns.
13. limited AI activity to allow some "ambiance" in the game as a concession to immersion.
14. Ability to take down an entire base single handed with a fighter bomber.
There are others, all you have to do is look for these concessions to playability. They are also what allows this game to appeal to a diverse player base. A little something for everyone so that the game goes on and HTC can have food and shelter.
I think those clamoring for true "realism" have an option available to them. It has been mentioned before. It is setting up a historical event and running it with the features of the game they want. This has been available for some time.
I think the fact that there has not been a CONSTANT overwhelming amount of this happening as well as a FULL historical arena every night (or day) says something about the appeal of this situation to the player base in general. It would seem that there is insufficient interest in this type of event to keep it as a full time change in the MA. Why do I say this?? Simple, there is a limited interest by those willing to set it up to keep it going. There is a limited interest in players doing that type of thing. Or there would be a line of players trying to get into that scenario all the time. The DA is a good example. Whenever I check online it is almost always empty. Why Is that?? You have icon and engagement options there. That should satisfy the icon purists. It still remains unused the majority of the time however.
In the interests of fairness if HTC would set up a permanent no icon, no dar (or partial dar) arena those folks asking for this could see for themselves if it is a viable alternative to the MA as it is now. Oh and BTW, the all important perk points should transfer between the arenas so that players won't miss their "rewards" and get the ultra realistic ability to choose a perk vehicle to play with.
That is my take on the "realism" as well as the icon and dar debate. I think it would be a worthy compromise and allow HTC to appeal to the broadest player base yet.
Flame away
Mav
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So, the simplest fix...er, modification, suggested so far is to update inflight DAR only every minute or so, instead of continuously in real time.
Easy to program. (??)
Less load on the host. (??)
Provides "simulated ground controller" info.
Restricts "SA substitute" info.
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Soda... don't you think that Bar-Dar would still let you locate a fight quickly, without the unrealistic advantage of Dot-dar?
I agree that it would s**k to spend lots of time finding a fight. I just don't want the Dar to be so accurate as to negate the need for SA, hiding in clouds, etc.
Whatcha think ?
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wlfgng,
I just think the icons do more to screw up hiding in clouds than the dar does. All you need is a quick flash of icon to let you know where the guy is... you can't duck under the clouds to check out a contact then duck back in without showing up like a billboard. The dar bar tells me enough that I need to be alert because there could be an enemy nearby, not the dot dar. The dot dar only tells me the con is near an airfield/cv/facility.
People would spend even less time searching for a small dar bar con in a sector, while that solo con proceeds to bomb a base/facility/cv into oblivion with nary a peep that it's under attack. If anything within 12.5miles (the dot dar limit) you should get approximate altitude, heading, and general aircraft type from spotters on the ground. Whether this be through the clipboard or some automated .dot commands I think the clipboard is easier to use. I just don't see someone sitting in the tower for the first 10 minutes online relaying GCI information to other players.
-Soda
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Zip, I would hope that most people posting their opinions on here realize that they are not speaking for anyone else but themselves, and those that have voiced similar opinions. I agree with you totally on your points. This isn't a scientific poll, nor are we appointed voices. This is just the best way for HTC to hear SOME opinions from the player base. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Mav, the reason the Dueling arena isn't used often by the "realism" crowd is that the DA is just that, a DA. The realism crowd wants immersion, and you can't get than in a dueling arena (the terrain is one reason). This is my opinion, and I could be wrong as to why the DA isn't populated more. You're right though, the solution IS a historical arena, for a lack of a better term. You're also right in the fact that there is NOT enough support from the player base for there to be one right now. If enough people played in it, the MA wouldn't be as populated. That's going to change one day as more and more people subscribe. In fact, this weekend, there were still well over 100 people in the Main Arena while the Hostile Shores frame was going on. So perhaps the interest in a historical arena is there, as well as enough people to populate both arenas during peak hours.
anyways, debate on, I'm leaving work now! cya (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Maverick,
I dont think a historical arena is really the solution either. Really, it would only be viable in US playing time hours from 8-12 PM eastern when the most people are online to play and theres enough to support both arenas.
What *I* really think the best option is is a 2-3 hour arena open nightly, that keeps a record of the status from the previous three hour period. It would be run nightly for three hours (or so) and teh terrain would rotate once a week. Each night of the week would represent 6 months, and the planesets would be rotated starting with 1942 through 1945 (before 1942 is kinda pointless since we dont have anywhere near the planeset for that period of the war, nbesides which 1942 is really "early war" enough to make most ppl happy)
If scoring was implimented in such an arena, i think alot of aces high squads would be interested in participating in such an arena where some of the more conservative game settings could be explored.
a 24/7 HA wont work IMO
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I agree with you on the Icons Soda.
good point.