Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Nath-BDP on November 19, 1999, 11:45:00 PM
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HTC, I surely hope you will consider removing this addition, being able to see the enemy's position from your plane is totally bogus and throws the requirement for SA and skills out the window, real pilots never relied on pin-point radar, yet on their reflexes and SA. No more being able to jump people, all they have to do is press esc and your suprise is blown, no more buffing from high alts, everyone will know where you are, you get my point. When I saw this new radar my heart just dropped and thought of this being just an arcade game with planes, nothing like the real thing.
Perhaps having FULL radar only available in Towers and buffs is a viable alternitive, but I can tell you now, I'm no way going to spend $30 bucks a month for this, I think many others agree with me as well.
Let the flame war begin...
P.S. Good Job on the C.205, too bad I refuse to play AH anymore.
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1./Jagdgeschwader 51 "Mölders"
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While not as vehemenantly opposed to real time, pin point radar in a WWII flight sim as the previous poster, I have to admit I was a little taken aback.
I understand the need to test the waters, and to let the design juices flow, but I think in this case we're dribbling a little on our shoes (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I figgured the nme counters in the sector grids were a necessary evil, I mean, you can rationalize that as ground control vectoring you to a reported contact "Somewhere in that sector" but real time radar is a huge step towards dweebdom.
Im actually curious as to why you guys even tried it (honestly, not being sarcastic)
Fester, out
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--- Nath-BDP: ---
I'm no way going to spend $30 bucks a month for this, I think many others agree with me as well.
--- end ---
I belive this is must be officially the first post/poster saying he won't be playing because of feature X?
//fats
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This is the first thing ive seen that makes the buffs interesting to me . If they are able to knock out radar. That would have a real impact on the other side.
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Please, no radar !
Only friendly/enemy count in a sector, as planes being spotted by observers (ground control, like fester said).
Clouds were step to right direction, as well as dumping F3. Radar is a step back.
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Agreed...ditch the nmy inflight radar
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Well, I like it. I hate having to quarter a 25 mile sector looking for someone who coluld be 20k up or hugging trees. I think they current limitations/ must be in sector/tower must no be destroyed even it out.
If you think about it there is no way this adds SA or any type of reduction for getting bounced. If they are not in their own sector they won't have any radar, if they are watching the clipboard instead of flying and cruising they are goin to get bounced faster than ever.
The dot's are not THAT accurate guys. At best they tell you which way an attack is coming from. Unless your flying with zoom on MAX in the clipboard you would never pinpoint where a con is except by heading.
I think it's nice and allows a better defence. and it also makes your B17 drivers more valuable. Can't very well sneak a 47 in a sector where they can get the cons spoted at a border. Have to knock out radar first now!
(Don't forget base radar is killed by bombing/strafing tower and whole thing is gone when Radar station by HQ goes boom)
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If your in range, so is the enemy.
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Where do most fights take place, Sorrow, around airfields. Sneaking a C47 up and taking a field was fun, but now its going to be harder than ever, people NEVER escort you in the first place, now the enemy can see exactly where you are, this is going to drastically change airfield capturing, which in my mind, is most important for a game that is totally based on aircraft.
Perhaps having radar equipped aircraft that can track and direct friendly aircraft to incoming enemies, but still NOT as accurate as the currect system and having the radar a/c pilot have a different color text than others? The He 219 'Uhu' comes to mind for this role, its fast and has its share of defensive armament. And how about ONE ground radar installation for each country, which can be viewed from towers, but once destroyed, the radar is lost. Or maybe an AI controlled radar a/c instead?
Just some ideas...
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1./Jagdgeschwader 51 "Mölders"
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Not necessarily, Nath, because if you fly a C-47 below 500ft you won't get picked up on radar. Though not stated in the read.me file this was also implemented for versiom 0.39. Once again, fly below 500ft. and radar will not pick you up.
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129 IAP VVS RKKA
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I really like the new dar. Don't much like the nme having it though. So I grabbed a 17 and knocked it out at 8, 7, and 3. Dar prollem solved. If you don't like it, kill it. The more AH implements strat, the better imho.
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Here's my vote for dar...
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I like the pinpoint dots on one hand, but on the other hand I dinnae. I like knowing the approx location of my opposition in a quadrant, but I dinnae like him knowing mine. I espeically dinnae like flying into an enemy quadrant and he has a pinpoint dot for me but I dinnae have one for him =)
This addition has added a new target to my priority list when I'm prepping a field for drunks. On my first pass I hammer the acks (both on a single strip, 2 out of 3 on a tri-strip). The tower is now on my 'first-pass targets' list just for the reason of knocking out the radar for that quadrant.
As for the radar factory, we may have to organize mass raids on the city and the factories. Hitting the city adds a multiplier into the factory regen, and hitting the factories adds a multiplier to the regen of that item at the airbases (if I understand the system correctly =). This is making formation raids on strat targets more important IMNSHO, as a single B-17 can't carry enough ordanence to totally flatten any factory.
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And how many people are going to bother taking a buff up to 30k (10 - 15 mins of flight) to avoid enemy fighters. It being able to be destroyed isn't the point, the point is that its not HISTORICALY accurate, radar is fine if you keep it real and not turn it into a friggin' AWACS system in a late war WW2 based game, toejam, AWACS isn't even that accurate. Make radar not available in FIGHTERS, since when is there room in a WW2 fighter for an APG 73? Load up my electronic warfare system too!
Perhaps I'm asking for too much realism for the standard WW 2 flight sim junkie, maybe WW 2 online will quench my thirst for REALISM.
Nath "Muted" 29
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1./Jagdgeschwader 51 "Mölders"
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For me the Sector counters weren't very accurate at all, I assume that haveing one bar of red across the top the top meant five enemy in that sector.
I am not estatic about the level of accuracy with the current dar, perhaps a compromise can be made.
Airfields close to the Mountain/Valleys should be blind, the mountains block the dar.
Dar should have a range, cons outside a certain range, Call it the grid square where the dar is, are not picked up, effecti range 25 miles, okay, make it 40 miles.
Dar Ceiling.
Low 1000Ft.
High 25,000 Ft.
And instead of the precise dots, use the current sector counter indicator, and don't have it update as often, build in some inaccuracy.
Make a chaff load out available to all fighters, do blind and confuse radar.
Of course radar can be bombed and disabled.
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"I could feel the 20MM Cannon impacting behind me so I made myself small behind the pilot armor" Charlie Bond AVG
lkbrown1@tir.com
http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1 (http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1)
Very Opinionated Person.
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Also add a "Contact Report" function or key.
Generally speaking, in the RW if a pilot saw an enemy aircraft, he reported its location and position, so others could come help destroy it.
I see a bish B-17 at Sector 12,10 at alt 20,000K grid square 4. I push a button, and the message is displayed to all my country men, or every pilot in the same grid square with me.
I would use this function for large concentrations of fighters, B-17s, and of course C-47s.
This function should be disabled when you are in your chute.
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"I could feel the 20MM Cannon impacting behind me so I made myself small behind the pilot armor" Charlie Bond AVG
lkbrown1@tir.com
http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1 (http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1)
Very Opinionated Person.
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Hmmm... Errr... Just wondering if I missed a patch or something - my map is so NOT detailed so "pin-point locating of the enemy" sounds like some kind of fiction to me.
It would undoubtedly work just the way you guys describe had we had the Brand W style map... We don't so please stop wasting bandwidth/energy - the global warming is upon us and you are contributing (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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-lynx-
13 Sqn RAF
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Enemy/Friendly symbols should be seen only on the ground.
I don't like to see symbols at the in-flight. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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And maybe this is a signal that we need Historical Arena ASAP.
With historical matchups, reduced icons and no radar.
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You know you fly too much when you think you just have to hit the / key and start typing.
I spent four of five seconds, just stareing at the screen, wondering why the text box to post a reply did not appear.
Then I saw the Post Reply Icon Button, and a bell rang.
-Lynx-
For Version 0.39 you can see enemy plane icons on your map in flight. These are displayed as Little RED dots.
In Version 0.38 Freindly Icons were displayed as little green dots.
Pin Point may be a stretch, and the Radar Does not give alt.
AND during the war there were ground controllers who could feed data to pilots in the air on the Location, and direction of Enemy Aircraft. Many could give you a good height estimate also.
But the Radar of that period was very fickle, and I think more inaccurate than what we have now.
I think the Radar we have now is great if all you are looking to do is furball.
Apparenly it will allow someone to sneek a C-47 in below 1000Ft.
But I haven't heard any limitation on Altitude for this Radar.
Even Modern Radar has an Effect Ceiling of about 35,000 Feet, that is why the AWACS Fly at 35,000 and provide coverage up to 65,000 Ft.
Hampering the Radar will provide realistic feedback.
Give them a range, say 50 miles.
Targets at extreme range should be fuzzy, and their postion should be grossly inaccurate on the Radar.
As a target closes on the Radar, the Radar should have a clearer picture of what is approaching.
Also, Radar can't see into canyons, valleys Etc, unless it is positioned above such natural obstacles. The same should be true of AH. The forward fields are close to that mountain range. Radars located at those airfields should not be able to see much across that mountain range.
I don't mind the radar, but I feel right now it is tooooooOOOOOO accurate.
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"I could feel the 20MM Cannon impacting behind me so I made myself small behind the pilot armor" Charlie Bond AVG
lkbrown1@tir.com
http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1 (http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1)
Very Opinionated Person.
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I am with Nath, I was really disappointed with the new Radar feature just implemented. It was one of the reasons I left AW, because SA didn't mean crap.
Please, keep the sector counter, get rid of the inflight radar.
Oh and before some of you guys keep pressing for a "Historical Arena" can we try and get a full regular arena first and get the beta finished? How can we test 3 way strat and combat if its 95% of the time a two way war.
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Vermillion
WB's: (verm--), **MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires ;) "
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I for one was very pleased with the threatened sector icon, since it warned any entering the sector that enemy aircraft were in the area. And by lengthening the bar the seriousness of the threat could be conveyed as well. That the location of the enemy was no more detailed than within a given sector was an excellent method of simulating various reports in the area of reported air activity.
This new radar that is part of 0.39 certainly appears to work fine, however whether it should be available for inflight usage is something I would discourage, since it would be unrealistic for the time period depicted. It certainly has a use for scenarios where radar figured heavily like the Battle of Britain and the strategic bomber campaigns.
I do like the idea of the tower's integrity being directly linked to the coverage of radar in that vicinity, since destruction of a radar command center would be just as debilitating as damage to the radar array itself.
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double post - sorry
[This message has been edited by leonid (edited 11-20-1999).]
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I totally agree, this is extremely strange that Hitech implemented such all knowing all seeing ??RADAR?? in all aircraft including fighters??? WTH?
It's just as surprising as if Hitech decided to arm all the aircraft in AH with futuristic Star Wars lazer canons. Just doesn't make any sense at all.
You can't combine Quakebirdlike dweebery features like all seeing radar in all AC while implementing hardcore flight models/ gunnery. You'll just p*ss off both the hardcore flight simmers and the Quakebirders alike and no one will want to play AH.
And NO NO NO padlocking! Learn to use the view system and stop whining. Or else play Novalogic sims. Heck, even my dog could play Novalogic sims after 2 mins of practice.
I think some explanation for this strange event is warranted from Hitech.
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Ok, you guys want realism? Get in a plane, go up. If you get shot down, leave the computer and never play again because in a sense, you are dead. If you don't, well good for you.
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Inflight radar is a step backwards, IMHO.
Az
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Azrael
XO 487th BG (Heavy) (http://www.487th.de)
'The Gentlemen from Hell'
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The comment "Who want's to take up a 17 to 30k only to be shot down because someone can see your location" has me a little confused as this statement was intended to protect the 'realism' of a radarless arena. It only points out how _unrealistic_ our engagements are currently.
If you don't want to get shot down, maybe bring another buff with you for support. Hell, bring 4 or 5, 10 of em even.. and fly inna tight defensive formation. Oh yah, but this radar now is going to (unrealistically?) convey the nature of this threat to the enemy infrastructure. Of course they will be met with heavy fighter opposition. What to do? Hmm.. How about some fighter escorts? Some
close, some high, and perhaps some out ahead to sweep.
Golly, this is shaping up to resemble a 'realistic' air battle.
I don't know if it is because of years of flying arena sims that people are defending any change to the status quo as it relates to the engagements as they are flown, day after day, the same. But I just find it odd that some make the claim of 'unrealistic' in the same sentence that they protect the sanctity of the stealthy lone B17 flying deep into enemy territory or the single 47 flying through the back door to take over a base.
Not to mention the go find a furball and dive in mentality. Is it _that_ that some would like to protect? How? How does dar as it is today foiling these? How could it be that my countrymen are engaged in such a manner, and I wouldn't know its location?
So most likely, yes, this will change the way you go about flying in the arena. This unrealistic dar could ironically have the effect of bringing about realistic engagements, and better overall strat.
And again, the problem (if you see it that way)isn't anything a well placed 500lber couldn't solve.
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Very well said Nash-agree completely with all you've stated-especially the using b-17's in a tight formation for protection.I've(with varied success) attacked formations as small as 2 b-17"s and it is VERY dangerous fare to a single fighter.Now-3 or more would be a REAL defensive snarl and that(as you said) would require a sizeable and coordinated fighter defence to tackle!That is as realistic as it gets I'd think and if current radar aplication facilitates this scenario-sounds like alot of fun to me!
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Well, the dots didn't make THAT much difference to me last night
At least it didn't prevent Voss (and his wingie) from making a meal of me <g>
From a historical POV though, I'm leery of
eye-in-the-sky radar...I'd like to see 'dar
implemented for scenarios but only so that a
player could actually act as the ground controller (but not fly at the same time)
maybe radar should be added as a "plane type"
or in multi-place planes, as an "observer"
position where that plane DID have onboard
radar.
For single-seat fighters, I'd rather see a
text message (or a sound file triggered by
a text message) that calls out planes that
are actually likely to have been observed
(ie by radar stations, naval units etc)
that would give GENERAL locations (including
altitude) but would only be given intermittently, so the pilot would be forced to plot a likely intercept based on each report.
If the map ever gets drawn more clearly or
gets an inflight "zoom" feature like WB, I'd
vote for the dots to be left out.
Grump
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Personally i perfered it when there were just sector counters.
Perhaps an explanation for hitech putting in this sort of radar is just to test to see if it works so if an arena/scenario may require them they would be available (e.g. a night time scenario)
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Radar should only be accessable in the tower. Not in the AC. The only exception to this would be AC that was equiped with onboard dar.
I do not & never have liked the idea of onboard Radar in any sim unless its used in the correct AC.
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--wd-- Jagdgeschwader 26 "Schlageter"
"The Abbeville Boys"
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I personally like the concept in general. What is does is give us all a reason to reflect on the stategic elements to be succesful as a country and not JUST to dogfight or Just to bomb! I think it may give us reasons to work together once we recognize the benifits of coordination. It has been lacking in all sims to date and one thing that IS ALSO REALISTIC about warfare is that it takes COORDINATION not just that a bunch of fighter pilots or bomber pilots that like to do there own thing. Maybe HiTech Creations is making it that way to achieve better gameplay for all interests. Not Sure??? Since the each field radar controls the dots within its own area, coordination in killing the tower to shut it down it esential. Getting buff strike up that are not easily identifiable require pre-knocked out radar paths and then major hits at city and HQ and Radar Complex to effectively nuetralize the effects. Its easy! Get fighters and bombers and C-47 pilots working together for common goals itstead of creating an arcade arena. Hmmmm I think HiTech Creations may have thought of that! HATS OFF to the creators IMHO! I like the direction that we are going and I can only say to the guys that are working hard to make this the greatest WWII combat sim is KEEP IT UP!
Salute,
Thunder
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Don't like it in the plane. IMHO it should be available on the ground only.
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If HTC claims AH is the most realistic WWII on-line sim the RADAR should be withdrawn, totally in flight and downgraded in tower.
You dont have radar in EAW or other sims like that.
Just add text message from "ground contoller" saying the aprox bearing and distance of nearest nmy, something like arrow in WBs, but disable it if you are flying too far of a friendly field.
I asume the RAD will be the actual way only in the beta.
Other way I'll be back in Warbirds.
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Because of this unrealistic radar, my initially great hopes for Aces High are in great question. I've not logged into AH since I first downloaded the .39 patch.
I don't anticipate getting into AH any more in the rest of the beta or future cuz this radar has dashed all sense of realism I get in this sim arena.
It's kinda like in Star Wars episode 1 where Jar Jar binks destroys all suspension of disbelief turning the whole experience into a bunch of kiddie nonsense.
I have nothing against Hitech or AH, in fact I think AH has the potential to basically be the best online flight sim experience if it's not screwed up.
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This Friendly/Hostile radar is IMO a good compromise to reality. No one has really said how it could be done better? This is just one method and it seems OK.
If you don't like the red and green dots or bars, I can live with it either way. It is even either way.
I believe this compromise is OK because the arena is VASTLY smaller than any thing in real life, but is still large. In real life you were extremely lucky to even make a contact on fighter patrol. That would not be fun for a game, high realism or not.
Planes often engaged only on interceptions where the location of the hostile was known.
I know personally a P-51 pilot who flew during WW2. I am not sure where or when he flew, but he said that he saw very few German planes in the air.
I was reading some post mission reports the other night of "Brewster Buffalo" pilots (F2F?). Each account said that the Japanese planes were just about the right location and attitude that the British Radar Operators said they would be found at. These pilots knew where to go from their takeoff brief, or received in flight vectoring.
The text scroll, is NO WAY as effective of a communication as a radio might be used in real life. I miss 90% of what scrolls by, so the radar operators (system/host) can not communicate in this fashion. Maybe HTC will put in voice recognition or a voice responding AI Radar Operator?
Of course the countries with poorer radar facilities will suffer in an Historical Arena.
Mino
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Kinda suprised High Tech hasnt popped in here to explain his ideology behind implementing "onboard realtime radar" into a WWII flight simulation.
Personally I think its a step backward, and is a significant SA crutch, but Im not a game designer, Im a game player (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
still curious to see what the boys at HTC have to say on why they did it, and what they were trying to accomplish with it. <serious>
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I just read another thread. In that thread Hitech said something that I thought might apply here. The thread is "Is engine management in the winds".
He said, in essence, that this is an ACM simulator game. It is not a realism simulator game.
You have got to find the hostile, to simulate ACM right? Better this, than the simulation of searching for them.
What is good game play? I'll wait and see. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Mino
[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 11-21-1999).]
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I don't mind the RADAR, however, I do like the idea of only being able to see accurate RADAR in the Tower. That coupled with accurate location of your friendly's and general location of the enemy (per version 38)in the planes, I think would be ideal. Then whenever anyone entered a tower they could call enemy vectors to their team pilots before flying.
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For once. I agree with Wardog.
DITCH the 'dar.
<cough>
Please.
Curly
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Bring it on boys.
I like the radar. But then I asked for it two weeks ago. It makes surviving in a 47 way easier not harder. You can see the cons from a distance and know to hold back for escort. You have the information to ask for cap on a field and your country man can look at the sector and the fighter jocks will go "hey maybee there are some kills up there". The defence can coorinate way better but can also be spoofed by numbers and feints.
What are we crying about. We all know that both sides in western europe had highly evolved and efficient RW systems that could steer a single fighter onto a target. All things are compressed here so we have what looks like way too much info for the time period. But it will balance out as there is no command authority to take advantage of it.
No one can say "XXXXX quit vulching 2 for your thousands of EXTREMELY UNREALISTIC kills and get up here and defend your loved ones for a while, or your out of here. So its just information that can be used or not. An interesting resource that the buffs seem to love.
I think that it can be further limited, I would lower the setup time for a newly captured base. I might even do somthing like the red bar for large formations. At the point where the resolution of the radar could not distinguise the units in a fir ball then it turns into a blob and you cant count enemys or friendlies in it. Chaff of course. shielding by ground features would be great.
Keep it, evolve it, perfect it.
Pongo
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Pongo-
The problem is the game then becomes a radar simulator.
I know when I see a slow moving dot from a rear field that a buff's a comin'. I will climb and meet him.
I know when there are dots hanging on the periphery of the battle that the C-47's are a comin'. I can just wait at the field.
Look, like the external view, this may just be a temporary condition. I hope so, as I think inflight radar takes away more than it adds (like external view). I'm not about to quit flying because of it though. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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You are right, but is that not realistic? This is a late WW2 simulator. They saw PR spits coming for hundreds of miles. They just couldnt do anything about it until they got the right planes.
So many people complain that it wrecks the game because people know too much(perfect SA) did anybody see that this weekend? I think not. The real perfect SA that is unrealisic in this game is in relation to Vulching. You could not drop flaps and turn and burn with the victum over any airfield because you new that the 2 flak guns where down for a nother 15 miniutes. Some of these guys would be brought down by pistol fire they are so slow and low. If there is one thing that history has shown and still shows its that knowing what has happend on the ground is impossible. Yet the most popular passtime in this game depends on it.
We dont even get alt and bearing fer crissake which is what real radar gives doesnt it....
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I dinnae keir, kinda hard to id a buff like that since you can't see red dots unless they're in a quad that's covered by a friendly field. Last night Handy and I were chasing a 17 south of field 2, but it was outside the coverage area of the field, so there was no dot to guide us. Just zig-zaging through the quad til we saw a dot.
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Air power is a thunderbolt launched from an egg shell invisibly tethered to a base. - Hoffman Nickerson
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You may be right in the planes, but you can in the tower. Omniscience is not a good thing for the most part IMHO.
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Just my thoughts on RADAR returns from the tower ONLY.
You can debate all day wether it adds or subtracts from game play. Now you get to have TowerGroundControllerDweebs. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Which might be in itself a seperate way to play this game.
Having dar in the tower only, is no more realistic than not having dar at all or having dar all the time. Nor is it more realistic than having force bar sliders only or not at all.
However; it is not any less realistic.
Mino
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Pinpoint radar... Hmmm.. I don't think it should be a see all, In the tower, you should be able to see contacts in radar range. In the air, you should only be able to see an approximation...
Two detection methods in WWII spring to mind right now. The Air Defense Network used in Burma and China composed of assets surrounding the bases and stretching outward. These forward assets would report any aircraft in the vicinity and the people back at the base would track contacts and vector fighters, or evac bases as necessary.
In England, the radar was accurate enough for a ground controller to guide a night fighter to intercept. If they had enough accuracy to intercept at night, then I see no reason not to have pinpoint radar.... Seeing the dots on the map screen is equivalent to having a Ground Controller informing you of a hostile nearby.
My spin on it... it should be limited to a radius around your fighter and a radius around your bases. A more general approach should be made for other regions of radar coverage.
Am I making any sense?
-Shep
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What wardog said, dump in-plane 'dar
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whoops
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whoa ancient thread
but very true about inflight awacs and sector bars
the arena will be much more fun and dynamic if this information is only available while in the tower
by limiting this information to just the tower we get the new dynamic of people in the tower acting as radar controllers for fighters on the prowl.
its a lot more fun this way. and in wb the only thing preventing people from doing this task a lot was the buck 50 an hour. we have no such constraint here and this would be a great feature and new aspect of team cooperation that is lacking in AH thus far.
fighters should not be totally self suficient Beyond visual range tracking and targetting at all
they should have to rely upon the good souls in the tower that will vector them to the enemy
also by this the pilot will have to use good judgement once he leaves the tower for his plane.
he has information on where the enemy is when he starts up his aircraft but after this he must plan his flight to head to a best area for intercept based on dated information or he must request assistance from ground control radar watchers in the tower.
i hope htc can see it in their best interests too remove inflight radar/sector bars
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Having AI Flight controllers that would give info about where incoming planes are, this info would be updated in a seperate chat buffer.
example:
"Three enemy contacts at 8,16,2 incoming bearing 8 8 8."
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(http://pobox2.zyan.com/~nath/Stab%20JG77.gif)
Stab/Jagdgeschwader 77
"Herzas"
[This message has been edited by Nath-BDP (edited 10-01-2000).]
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the same could be said for having ai ground vehicles.
human GCI would be much more fun
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What a long and deep thread.
Oops, sorry for my trash response.
-Mitsu
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I vote for tower-only radar. Funny how many write about realism and then agree for our inflight radar.
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Originally posted by Nath-BDP:
Perhaps having FULL radar only available in Towers and buffs is a viable alternitive, but I can tell you now, I'm no way going to spend $30 bucks a month for this, I think many others agree with me as well.
Let the flame war begin...
P.S. Good Job on the C.205, too bad I refuse to play AH anymore.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
some guys never learn...
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Did you bother looking at the date on that post RAM?
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Btw, why do you always have something constantly negative or a troll to say? Why not think before posting and make an impression on people, you're in a supposed 'training squad' after all.
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I hope someone blew the dust off this one first (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I still don't like the pinpoint inflight radar.
And I still hear people telling me to work the strat (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Fury
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well I got somthing to do outside of AH too.
if no radar it could take very looong time looking for conns, if taking off from the wrong field.
This is still a game, i think HT is thinking playability.
And i cant remember flying here witouth radar (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
And whatsoever the rules are alike for us all.
I still havent found a more realistick online flightsim anyplace else.
airguard
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Untill we have people to vector us real-time to incoming cons, dot dar is a necessity. The truth is, ground based radar did exist, and there were flight control officers who told the you where the cons were. Pilots in flight would also report any enemy activity. Untill someone is willing to vector us to enemy cons, while they sit in the tower... I vote for dot dar. BTW, radar also gave elvations, which we DO NOT have, so please be quite about this onboard radar and AWACS and such. HTC is merely providing us with the information WWII pilots had, maybe even less...
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Weelll, the planeset is fleshing out, decent Terrains are being made, Scenarios are rolling, but still the AWACS Radar and B29 Fire control limit my interest in this game.
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dudedog,
the solution is AI radar controllers...
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Gads, they really dug one out of the grave yard on you didn't they Nath.
Sisu
-Karnak
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I dug it out myself ;p
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From some posts, this issue has apparently been discussed before, so I appologize for beating a dead horse - but hey, it doesn't hurt the horse.
To me, the specific issue of how the radar functions is a piece of a bigger question of just what AH is? If it's a combat flight simulator then it should be a representation of a system = in this case air/ground combat during a the 1941-1945 time period. IMHO, this type of simulation should generally represent what was actually going on. That means simulating the actual capabilities of the aircraft/vehicles and support - including radar capabilities.
Fighters didn't have radar (or at least not until late in the war), they had ground controllers vectoring them to the approximate position of contacts or other pilots on patrol calling positions. There was not total coverage of all friendly territory as we have here. Others suggested AI ground control should be modeled in a seperate text buffer - I would very much like to see that. Radar, if desired for game play should only be available while a pilot is on the ground (from tower).
The current all seeing radar does make it easier to coordinate and deal with enemy planes, but that's not simulating the historical action. I'm not suggesting it provides complete SA, but it is greatly enhanced. For example, if you see a distant contact, all you have to do is look at the map to determine if its friend or foe. All is required then is to determine if you're at advantage or not and how you want to handle it.
But don't you think it's possible that limiting the radar to more realistic (for the time period) would encourage more cooperation and teamwork between fighter groups, jabo and bomber flights? Think about it for a minute. Don't those periods when radar is down highten the excitement of running into enemy aircraft? Are you going to be at advantage or disadvantage, will you have to call for help, fight or flee?
Not only do we have hightened SA, but the capability to leap across from on side of the map to the other to defend a base. I would prefer that all be limited to travelling there (by plane or vehicle). How realilstic is that?
If the intent of AH is simply a ACM contest as one post noted (and by extension just a FFA), why bother with seperate countries, squads/wingmen, variable fighter loadouts, bombers and ground vehicles in the MA? FFA can be flown in H2H.
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Seems to me that the current radar (and sector bar) system is about game play, and I think it works pretty well.
The current system makes it easy to find a fight when numbers are low, AND gives us a very valuable strat target. If we don't take advantage of the strat value, especially when numbers are high, then I guess we don't have a complaint.
Having said that, I could live with just about any modification suggested above. I DO find those times when radar is down to be more exciting when numbers are high enough.
I think the easiest modification to make would be to delay the sector bar updates by between 5 and 10 minutes,(make it variable so it would be harder to game). This would simulate the time delay for ground observer reports to work their way through the info system, and give strikes a chance to organize before the interceptors can scramble.
popeye
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I would have to agree totally with my squadmate Tbone on this one, its a question of what we want AH to be on both counts. Having the radar totally accurate when combined with the ability to hop from base to base with a click of the mouse takes alot away from the realism, but if its just one big ACM contest instead of a true simulation then I guess the radar is cool. Personally I can have an ACM contest in H2H, the reason in my mind to pay for the MA is working with squads and running true operations on a larger and more realistic scale then just FFA.
Regards
Todd "Stardog" Garner
Wildcards V.F.S. "Dealers of Death"
News Editor
Frugalsworld of Simulations (http://www.frugalsworld.com)
Managing Editor/Webmaster
Stardog's Simshack (http://simshack.frugalsworld.com)
[This message has been edited by Stardog1 (edited 10-05-2000).]
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Originally posted by RAM:
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
some guys never learn...
LMAO! Ohh the irony..
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Originally posted by von Werrer:
LMAO! Ohh the irony..
Irony?...I left AH once, for less than one month, if that makes that quote ironic for you...well, great (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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So "Von" Werrer, Who are you and do you have anything to add or are you just fishing here ?
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This "realism" argument really cracks me up. This is not a realism game. It is a combat game loosely based on WW2 aircraft and some other related equipment. Since it is a game HT has implemented some features to maintain a steady game flow and keep more people online playing it for as long as possible.
If you guys want realism go buy a box sim. You can then deal with the limited planes available for you to fly based on whatever country you choose to "fly" for.
Here in AH you can fly any damn plane in the set, from any open friendly field. Hardly realistic or historical. You do not have to stay in the plane you are "ordered" to fly and you can re up every time you get killed or shot down, again not historical or realistic.
Please understand this IS a game not a historical recreation of actual events. Now go get the plane of your choice, in the country of your choice and fly in the manner of your choice all of which is not historical or realistic but is designed to be a fun gaming experience.
Mav
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STaga, apparently he is someone who have been ticked off by us luftwobbles.
I wouldn't place any weight on this alter ego of someone who wish to remain anonymous, as all his posts are rolling eyes ones (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://store4.yimg.com/I/demotivators_1619_3845234)
"I don't necessarily agree with everything I think." - A. Eldritch