Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Ack-Ack on July 05, 2003, 01:07:01 AM
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Are there going to be any changes to the gunnery model or firing rates to any of the planes?
Like for instance, the P-38L. Currently when you fire the machine guns, only one gun fires at a time but in real life all four machine guns fired simultaneously, coupled with the single 20mm Hispano, gave the P-38 a high lethality rate. Will the P-38 have the correct firing rate in AH2?
And another question, will AH2 also model the various types of ammunition used? I seem to recall reading that US planes used a mixed belt of AP and HE rounds (think the RAF did the same) while the German planes used a hybrid AP/HE round. Will we get this option too in AH2?
Ack-Ack
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The Hurri D's 40mms could do with this fix aswell.
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Originally posted by BenDover
The Hurri D's 40mms could do with this fix aswell.
Id have to agree this could do with some adjustments I think.
Whether i could claim i thought it was incorrectly modeled im not so sure but i must say i have seen a film clip of the hurricane d using that 40mm. Very slow rate of fire like ours but when those bullets hit the tank it looked as though it was doing a hell of a lot of damage. BUT whether that tank was actually hurt in RL or it just looks like that I cant say, never saw the tank afterward! :)
AH could be spot on I dont know. All id say is in AH the Hurri D is really no better it seems to me than the 20mm hurri for killing GV's and its incredibly hard to hit with those 40mm. In the war I thought the 40mm hurricanes were very successful but again was it success against tanks or soft vehicles, If the enemy is stopped its deemed a successful attack but we will never know if they actually destroyed a tank or stranded it without its supply columns.Myths build up and history gets very distorted.
I would for once in AH agree to a slightly unrealistic increase in the 40mm's penetrating/tank destroying ability for gameplays sake.
Personally I feel the hurricane D is a hard aircraft to survive an attack with against AA vehicles and its so poor in performance it is rarely a big danger to anyone attacking it. It basically doesnt kill vehicles very well and the 40mm at the moment doesnt seem to be a good tank killer.Why not give the hurri D a bit of a role to play in AH? make it so a good 40mm hit does hurt vehicles. Nothing over the top just as long as they are a little more effective than they are now and it makes using them desirable.
Maybe in WW2 they(hurrD) werent very good either but in AH which is a game and as it cant cover every aspect of warfare it would be good to have it be usefull .Theres no troops or soft vehiicles for us to attack so players in tanks is what we have. increase 40mm's AP slightly just to see it used more if nothing else?.Then again maybe it isnt modeled quite right ? hard to tell.
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Isn't the real problem with the hurri's 40mm that it is firing them alternating left-right that causes a yaw moment bad for aiming, instead of both cannons at the same time?
The 110 with 2 30mm cannons has 255 rounds 30mm total, does one gun actually have 1 round more than the other?
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Are there going to be any changes to the gunnery model
Green tracers for Russian AC........
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That would actually be a cool thing to add, even though it's only an eye candy sort of thing. Each plane would get whatever tracer color that particular plane's country.
ack-ack
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All very nice suggestions.
To that I'd like to add that I would like to see the effects of the massive amounts of gunfire effecting a plane's flight condition. I'm pretty aware it's not too pleasing to time and time again mention a "brand X" contendor for comparing things :D, but in this case, the IL-2 series is probably the most serious contendor in these aspects as they also depict WW2 aircraft combat(tho' not necessarily a contendor as a MMOG I admit..!).
What I mean to say is, in IL2/FB, the effects of gunfire are really very pronounced - firing two machine guns, feel very different from firing four. The pure force off many guns firing at once, ever slightly effects the planes in a manner such as the nose pitch of the plane tucks under a bit. When some plane has wing armament, and one or two on one side is damaged, the unbalance of the recoil force makes the yaw axis shake.
I've felt some of these phenomena in AH too, but not as much as to make a real difference. The only case where something like this really effects a plane, is the Hurri2D, where a mistake in the firing sequence shakes the plane's yaw axis tremendously. In the case where I was flying a wing-armed plane like the 190A-8, or maybe Mustangs or Corsairs, I've often had entire amount of guns on one side of the wing knocked out, with only the other side operational. No problem in aiming, the only thing that bothers us is the reduced firepower.
In IL2/FB, when even if one cannon on a HurricaneIIC is jammed due to damage, those accurate Hispanos suddenly become very very hard to aim! Yaw axis shakes, and shakes hard!
I'm curious as to what others think about this. Maybe IL2/FB, like many other things, have exaggerated those features too much? Or, regardless of that, is AH too 'weak' in this aspect?
If all five guns entirely concentrated on the nose of the P-38 fires at once, just how much should that effect the plane's flight characteristic?
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Also, I am very well aware that the Hispano MkII and MkV cannons were probably the most efficient and powerful 20mm cannons in that era, but I recall reading some posts that the specific ammo types weren't represented.
I was always looking for a chance to confirm if this was true. Some people had ideas that this may account for its incredibly superb power in AH. All the different types of ammo mixed in the belt, is mixed into a single round in AH <- this is what I've heard.
So, just how exactly is the ammo types represented in AH??
Any opinions are welcome! Please enlighten me! :)
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Originally posted by Kweassa
In IL2/FB, when even if one cannon on a HurricaneIIC is jammed due to damage, those accurate Hispanos suddenly become very very hard to aim! Yaw axis shakes, and shakes hard!
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That's one of the pissers about the P-38 in AH. In real life the four nose mounted .50 cals and single 20mm Hispano cannon gave the P-38 an extremely lethal gun package. But in AH since the machine guns don't fire simultaneously like they did in real life, the lethality has been significantly decreased.
Ack-Ack
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(Slightly off topic) Seems to me the lethality of those hispanos is even worse(better?) offline, 2-3 bullets will knock a drone's whole wing off. Then again smaller caliber fire seems more effective as well.. C.202's 2 12mm offline seem as lethal as 4 50cal online.
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
But in AH since the machine guns don't fire simultaneously like they did in real life, the lethality has been significantly decreased.
Ya lost me there, bro. They don't fire simultaneously? They seem to on my end. Trigger plus thumb trigger = 6 .50s converging (hopefully) on target.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding your meaning here.
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he's talking about the 50 cals, leave the cannon out of this
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i would like to see tracers added (optional of course) to the end of aircraft's ammo load, and remove ammo counters from the aircraft that didn't have them. I would also like to see Hurri IID's guns fixed. They didnt call it 'The Tin Opener' and 'Tank Buster' for nothing :)
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Are you sure they arent all firing together? you cant use the sound file to listen to it because that isnt an accurate representaion of the gun firing.
When you press the trigger of a single mg it plays your sound sample.It doesnt necessarily match exactly to the bullets does it?
It also has been set up so when 2 mgs fire the program plays the sounds at a slightly different point so as to create that stereo affact.Im not sure about this but id susect its something like this so you as a player hears 2 distinct gun sounds rather than both at the same time cancelling each other out.
You really need HTC to tell you if when you fire a package of guns do they start to fire bullets at the same time or are they staggered somehow.
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Hazed, it wouldn't be difficult to test. The guns on the P-38 fire individually, not collectively. Just give the MG button a tap, and you'll see you fired 1 round. If all 4 guns fired at the same time, even a little tap would fire 4 rounds, since all the .50s would fire once.
As far as the ammunition loadout goes, I'd like the ability to change loadouts. Yea, this is a luftwhine, sue me. The german 20mm AP rounds and HE rounds completely sucked, but the Mine round was as good as a Hispano 20mm round, according to Tony Williams anyway. The reason the Hispanos hit twice as hard as the Mg151 in this game is either the Mine round is not modelled at all, or it is modelled as 2 parts crap AP round, 2 parts crap HE round, 1 part Mine round.
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Originally posted by Arlo
Ya lost me there, bro. They don't fire simultaneously? They seem to on my end. Trigger plus thumb trigger = 6 .50s converging (hopefully) on target.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding your meaning here.
The .50 cals on the P-38L in AH, fire one at a time. In real life when you fired the .50s, they would all fire when you pressed the trigger, not so in AH. Take one up and just squeeze off one round and you'll see just one .50 fire off, not all of them like it's supposed to.
ack-ack
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Beeing able to fire a single round doesn't neccessarily mean that their effectiveness is reduced.
Let's say a singel .50 would over time fire...
x---x---x---x---x---
Each x standing for firing one bullet, each - for time in between.
So with 4, even if all 4 are firing, it could look like this
x---x---x---x---x---
-x---x---x---x---x--
--x---x---x---x---x-
---x---x---x---x---x
Probably still wrong, but no reduced lethality ;)
Did you test how many bullets per second the p38 fires compared to another aircraft that can fire 4 .50s at the same time (e.g. 2nd bank on p51)?
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Since there aren't any real convergence issues with the P-38, with all four .50 calibers firing at the same time, it hit like a shotgun blast.
Four .50 calibers firing simultaneously at a target is going to do much more damage at the point of impact than four .50 calibers firing in succession.
Ack-Ack
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Ack Ack, there is no way that the guns in a real life P-38 fired the way you describe them too. Very slight mechanical differences in the firing mechanisms would in just half a second "un-synch" the fire of the guns to be what we have now.
Spring strengths (recoil operating guns), powder differences, primer burn rates, etc., to just name a few, all play a role of when each gun and then each shell fires. Now multiply this by four guns, and over ten rounds per second.
Do you really think that all 4 guns are firing at the same time? (or even within a tenth of a second of each other).
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What makes you think 4 bullets hitting at the same time do more damage than 4 bullets hitting after each other?
Did anyone measure round per second of all 4 guns combined and compared to 4 guns on another aircraft?
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Originally posted by ccvi
What makes you think 4 bullets hitting at the same time do more damage than 4 bullets hitting after each other?
Did anyone measure round per second of all 4 guns combined and compared to 4 guns on another aircraft?
in the time it took for those four rounds to follow one another to the target - 16 rounds could have hit it
then again your ammo would go 4x as quick :)
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Originally posted by Vermillion
Ack Ack, there is no way that the guns in a real life P-38 fired the way you describe them too. Very slight mechanical differences in the firing mechanisms would in just half a second "un-synch" the fire of the guns to be what we have now.
Spring strengths (recoil operating guns), powder differences, primer burn rates, etc., to just name a few, all play a role of when each gun and then each shell fires. Now multiply this by four guns, and over ten rounds per second.
Do you really think that all 4 guns are firing at the same time? (or even within a tenth of a second of each other).
But they did fire that way, all four guns fired when you pressed the trigger on the yoke. That's not how it is currently in AH. In AH, each gun fires once, in some sort of order, until all guns have been fired and then the cycle repeats, albeit at a high rate of fire. It might not seem all that significant but that does cut down on the hitting power of the P-38, which in real life carried a very lethal gun package, even after the 20mm Hispano rounds were depleted.
Ack-Ack
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Are we talking about 4 x .5" each firing at 850 rpm? ie over 14 rounds /sec / gun.
Are you suggesting that HTC has de rated the guns such that they only fire at 3.5 rounds / sec? (I assume not) or are you really concerned that they do not model synchronous fire?
How can you rely upon AH graphics to detect if the guns are firing syncronously or asynchronously when the frequency per round is a forteenth of a second?
This debate seems to be concerned with two extremes being
a)4 rounds perfectly synchronised every 0.07secs
or
b)individual rounds leaving every 0.017 secs.
I would be amazed if our FE's tracked individual bullets (I could be wrong it just seems wastefull of processing time).
There would be a trajectory model
There would be a lethality rate.
There would be a time on target.
There would be a graphic (tracer but not every bullet)
There would be a sound file.
There would be a usage rate.
In essence I would suggest that what you are really questioning is the lethality model......... because there is no way you can tell if these guns are synchronous or asynchronous from the rest.
edit ps by synchronous I mean with each other
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I'm not saying HiTech did anything with the guns at all. All I'm saying is that the way the machine guns fire on the P-38 in AH is not how they fired in real life. Does it impact the lethality of the plane? Those that casually fly the P-38 might not think so but those of us that fly it exclusively are of a different opinion.
Ack-Ack
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With all the gun postions that a Bomber has would it be possible to have more than one gunner on board, like for all the gun positions.
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
All I'm saying is that the way the machine guns fire on the P-38 in AH is not how they fired in real life.
How can you tell?
I do not see how it could be tested? (other than a basic lethality comparison)
Obviously HTC knows the lethality rate of their P38's combined 50's, only they would know if it is greater than 4 times a single 50 as you suggest it should be.
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Taking it a step further I would be interested in TW's opinion on the ballistics of the quad hit as opposed to the sequential hit.
I remember many a debate from those espousing the benefits of multiple 50's whereby, it was argued, that the combined rate of fire of multiple 50's more than compensated for lower round energy (compared to fewer but heavier cannon) because of a greater hit rate on a moving target.
It would seem that synchronous firing would negate this advantage as the rate of fire is now equivilent to one mg although of course the calibre is more equivilent to four.
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When WB3 switched from modeling multiple bullets as one to modelling every single bullet lethality was said to be increased for guns... (haven't been there when that change was introduced, just read it on their forum, at least if I remember correctly).
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All i want is 2 50 cals off an m3 on my p51.
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Just give me my Whirblewind {German Whirlwind} and I'll leave ya all alone :D
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Ack Ack is correct in that they fire one at a time in AH, however the difference in lethality, if any, would be way, way too slight to notice.
The only aircraft the guns being synced or unsynced matters is the Hurricane Mk IId, Il-2 and the Ju87G-2 (when we get it).
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Originally posted by Tilt
How can you tell?
I do not see how it could be tested? (other than a basic lethality comparison)
Make sure that you have tracers turned on and up in a P-38. Now press the trigger to fire a one round burst. In AH you are able to fire one round bursts but in real life if you tried, all four machine guns would have fired on the P-38, not just one as they do in AH. When you try it look at the ammo counter as you fire and you'll see by the count that only one round and not four was fired. Now you'll see muzzle flashes as if the other machine guns had fired simultaneously but that's just window dressing and only gives the illusion that all guns are firing simultaneously.
Ack-Ack
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Same effect with 110G2 20mm gun pack, it seems they fire one after another.
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Ack-Ack, You can not use the tracers as a reference for testing, there are 5 bullets per 1 tracer.
Did some simple testing here and I can fire 1 bullet about 1/3 of the time, using ammo counter for the mesure,by tapping the F key as fast as I can.
In the real 38 the first bullets out of the gun on a triger pull would not be at exatly the same time , they might be fired closer to the same time then in AH, but there after they would all be out of sync. To simulate this we would have to put in random firerates vs fixed fire rates for all guns.
And also unlike what you said, if you see the muzzle flash a gun has fired. It could just a non tracer round.
The thing to rember is if you fire a 1/2 sec burst in AH or in real life you will get the same number of bullets fired.
HiTech
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Originally posted by hitech
In the real 38 the first bullets out of the gun on a triger pull would not be at exatly the same time , they might be fired closer to the same time then in AH, but there after they would all be out of sync. To simulate this we would have to put in random firerates vs fixed fire rates for all guns.
Good idea :D
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Originally posted by ccvi
Good idea :D
Lol, I can see it now:
Originally whined by Sikboy
Is it just me or is the firerate randomizer on the Yak9U really porked? Whenver I engage a Spit my ROF drops by 3/4. HTC needs to fix this right now, or I'm going to cancell my sub. And a LOT of other people feel the same way!
:)
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
In AH you are able to fire one round bursts but in real life if you tried, all four machine guns would have fired on the P-38, not just one as they do in AH.
Re the test ........I just did one using the target and it did correlate between the round counter and the holes I could count..... so I think I must stand corrected it seems that AH does model individual .5 cal bullets..........
I then discovered something else.......... the gun sight compensated for the tragectory of the primary weapon!
At 600 yards the sight was lower on the target than at 50 yards This may help with my crap gunnery I have always raised the gun sight for longer shots..........
(yes lead computing was off........... yes i had waited long periods for the speed and horizontal to stabalise)