Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Ecke-109- on July 07, 2003, 08:58:22 AM
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Are there any ways to fight in an agressive manner in 190's?
I dont expect them to go in to a close turnfight.
But is there something else like B&Z to be sucessfull?
I mean...is it me or the 190 that i feel a bit helpless when coalt with an enemy (which is not a 190)?
I would really appreciate to get some films.
Please send to: ecke@abbeville.cc
:cool: I have some 109 films to swap :cool:
Thank you,
Ecke;)
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Just give up...fly straight....it's hopeless.
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use it's roll rate .... get enmeies to turn and over shoot then slide in behind em' and boom! Sicciors
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in a 190A8 with 4 20mms and heavy machine guns at 15k when I spotted a P-51D down low on the deck, moving fast and heading for my base. So I went diving down...
The pilot saw me as I closed and he pickled his ordinance. Normally, when bounced, Mustang pilots like to go into a tight turn, but this Mustang pilot had a bit of pluck and really started twist around the sky. I had the berserker rage going and did something I normally wouldn't do in a 190A8 - I turned with him.
Gradually we both started getting close to 250ias and I could feel the 190 start to torque over on its wing, so I leveled out, found a valley, and dove into it to keep my speed up. He followed me down and the fight was on!
I knew from the early turning that my 190 would lose its speed sooner than the Mustang would, so I started going into a scissors fight in the bowl of the valley. Eventually the Mustang overshot on a reverse turn and I managed to get a snapshot of 20mm into him. Off came his vertical stabilizer and he fluttered to the ground. "You shot down (somebody who's name I've forgotten) of (some RCAF squadron)." Victory through superior energy management.
Right about then his buddy came diving down on me. I hit WEP to get some speed so I could get the 190 back into the meat of its flight envelope. The Mustang overshot and pulled up into a loop to transfer its kinetic energy into potential energy and set itself up for another guns run against me. I went into a shallow high yo-yo just to get some air under my feet and stay out of plane with the Mustang, trying to force him into a deflection shot of some sort. He came over the top and back down on me as I tightened my turn and worked my throttle to avoid nose-planting on the side of the valley. He tried to drop flaps in order to lose speed but it was no use. On the pull-out he scraped his prop on the grassy knoll and had to ditch. Victory through superior energy management, again.
My advice when flying the 190A8 is this: in a low-speed fight, Mustangs will have the advantage. In a high-speed fight, the fight becomes more equal. The key fact is that the 190 can lose its speed, and therefore cut a turn shorter, than a Mustang when both planes start out fast - 400 knots or so. You have to use a Mustang's energy retention against it.
For other planes, the best attack is the one from dead astern or dead ahead. In the 190A8 with four 20mms, go for the HO if the enemy will give it to you. You can also try for a snap shot if the enemy is maneuvering. However, don't try to turn fight unless you are 1 v 1 or have the odds in your favor.
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@Manedew
Aren't scissors a kind of defensive acm which you should fly when the enemy is just behind you?
Do you use scissors when flying head to head at first merge?
Ecke
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Originally posted by Ecke-109-
Aren't scissors a kind of defensive acm which you should fly when the enemy is just behind you?
You can fly scissors when either the enemy is behind you or when you are behind the enemy. Normally, scissors is a defensive move, but if you find that you are doing a scissors pattern when you are chasing an enemy, you must be certain that either (a) your plane will turn sharper than your enemy or (b) your plane will lose energy faster than your enemy (which will allow you to turn sharper as the enemy overshoots you at the turn and flies in front of your guns). Once you have completed a scissors turn, make sure your guns are strong enough to damage your enemy at the merge. You will only have a snap shot. Or, hope that your plane has better low speed handling than your enemy because eventually you will both end up at low speed and on the deck unless one of you breaks the scissors pattern.
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Thank you Gofaster,
Or, hope that your plane has better low speed handling than your enemy because eventually you will both end up at low speed and on the deck unless one of you breaks the scissors pattern.
I just had a deja vu.
I know this situation very well.
From time to time, my 109g10 changes its status from hunter to victim in a few seconds while chasing a 190.:)
Ecke
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mane means stick stir like mad......
Find Urchin he will show ya all ya need to know about 190s.
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and try the A5 with the 2 cannon option, very fun :D
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Yes,
190a5 seems to be the toughest 190 while fighting in 109g10.
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Batz! Just noticed your sig - LOL! Long time no viddy, Droog. How goes? ;)
Ecke - yes, the 109 and 190. Two very different planes. I would say use the roll rate of the 190. It's got much better elevator response than the 109 especially at high speed. I like to get directly above a con, then dive down. If the con turns, you can "roll" in the vertical plane as to exit the dive in the direction of your choosing. It's a B&Z plane. Unlike the 109G10, it's OK to dive it like this at quite high speed.
If only I'd known you were looking for film. I had a good session in an -F8 earlier. Start out with the A5 though. It's the entry model! - and the fastest to 20K.
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Hey Beetle,
if you have 190 films with pregnant sequences, i would like too see them. Films should be <2.5mb.
In a coalt situation 1vs1 head to head, my mainproblem is:
After first merge, i can do what i want. I can go in a tight turn or a wide highspeed turn.I can fly them vertical or horizontal. Whenever i finished the turn to continue the fight, this damn enemyfighternose is already pointing straight in my eyes.
And that makes it really hard to come behind him. :)
Maybe that sounds silly. I notice this effect only when flying in 190.
By the time you can call it paranoia. ;)
Ecke
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The FW is best used as an Energy Fighter, What that means is using and retaining its energy to wear down your opponets energy to a level that you have him at your mercy.
This means using the Vertical, High yo yos and low yo yos. FWs love to burn up energy when making High G turns. Its Very much like BnZ. Each Pass is made with the thought of gaining angels on your opponet. Normal the first pass or two are not intended for the kill unless he doesnt react.
Later when you have begun to get into a firing postion, you will have chances for some snap shots. If the fight continues long enough, you will be able to use the high energy consumption of a FW to aid you in getting a good shot.
E fighting is often a mixture of BnZ and TnB but managing your energy level as you fight.
Damb I just wish I could get the hang of it :)
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Ecke - after all the help you have given me with 109, I'd be glad to do anything I can to help you with 190.
I found the 190 a challenge, but easy to learn once having developed the mindset for it. But the 109? I struggled with it for years.
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other peoples stick stirring seems to confuse you ecke......your a good pilot....I've fought you plenty of times in your 109
your trouble is exactly that....always 109
let them stick stir like gofaster seems too like.....I woulda stayed on top of em in pony and let him bleed all his E.....A8 low no speed is dogmeat......
even if urchin shows ya a few moves.....trust me.....they can be taken care of.....ya gotta fly em all too now what gives and what doesn't.....I'll fight any 190 in Pony.....toughest is A5....for first 2 or 3 moves....
rolls and scissors is whats best in 190.....
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lol..right..for certain reasons, 109's fit best to me.
Great climbrate, good e-management, powerfull 30mm's, good acceleration.
And even if the 109g10 is close to La7's performance, 109's are defenitely not everybodys darling.
They have their weak points, and that makes them kind of challenging.
And not the last point...they are german planes. :)
your trouble is exactly that....always 109
Yepp, thats why i try to manage FW190, from time to time.
Best of both worlds. ;)
Kurt Tank and Dr. Messerschmitt should better have worked together.
A 109g10 with the 190a5's rollrate...hmmm....that would be nice. :D
Ecke
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lol.....
I know you like german uberness....but you should really try LA5.....205.....Yak......and my Fav. Typhoon......your style would fit those planes....mostly the Typhoon though.....combo of good ammo and fast accl.....
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Originally posted by Ecke-109-
I mean...is it me or the 190 that i feel a bit helpless when coalt with an enemy (which is not a 190)?
If both are coalt it will depend on the difference in speed. If both planes are coalt and same speed, it will depend on what will do the enemy after the merge. If both of you follow the same pattern trying to maximize your E, then the 190 will be, in most cases, switching to deffensive.
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.... I killed two of his squad mates when I was in the 190A8 and they were in Mustangs (see "There I was..." posting above) ;)
In the FW190A8 you're going to find yourself in a lot of HO situations, mostly because your plane has a wide turn radius (well, wider than Spitfires, N1Ks, and Hellcats anyway). That's why I bring maximum firepower. Fire early, fire for effect, knock your target into a billion pieces before he can get an accurate aim on you. Embrace the HO if your target gives you the opportunity. Just make sure you get out of the way at d500 or you may lose parts of your plane at the convergence of your target's fire.
The Yak9U taught me a lot about aim and ammo conservation. You should fly it a few times to get a feel for it. You might find that your 109 flying will improve.
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they where squaddies....not me....or you woulda been dead:p
bah yak9u is for sissy's.....
try yak9T...only 32 buwetts:D...now that will help with aim.
but I know ECKE has no trouble with aim.....he's a good driver....just needs more air time in something diff. then 109's
and listen too mandoble.....he has good uberness knowledge :D
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Havent read any other replies to this topic yet but heres my take. I think the AH 190 is more disadvantaged than other fighters because of the game, not so much the plane. Though the 190 cant turn worth s**t, thats besides the point. Its possible to get lotsa kills per sortie in a 190. Anybody who has flown with me knows that this is true. Individual results may vary though. Even though your asking for a miracle if you want your 190 to turn 180 degrees in time to evade a kill or get one I personally feel the biggest problem is that there are so many experienced flyers in AH that simply do not make many mistakes. Thats one of the main reasons why I do not partake in turn fighting too much against more agile aircraft flown by seasoned pilots. The AH main arena is filled with "aces", very dangerous place. Yet experience doesnt matter as much when you implement the most important part of combat, surprise. Especially when you have four mg-151s to surprise them with. :D Stay fast, stay stealthy, stay alive, and dont miss.
As far as TNB in a 190, its possible but only if your tanks have drained down (means you cant TNB for very long) past 50% and you are VERY comfortable with throwing that bird around at stall speeds. I would draw comparison to those free style cyclist that do neat tricks with their bycycles. TNB will get you killed in a 190 so I dont do that unless I have to or feel that my opponent may be prone to making mistakes. I would not go and TNB any opponent. Thats sort of like the dagger of 190 fighting styles. In a 190 Im hunting 90%, TNB 10%.
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Originally posted by gofaster
.... I killed two of his squad mates when I was in the 190A8 and they were in Mustangs (see "There I was..." posting above) ;)
You must have been VERY lucky :)
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Sry guys but i dont agree. 190 is surely one of the best turner at 300mph. Dont forget this and use ur roll rate and u can be sure to get the snapshots u need to kill the enemy. OTOH Ecke u fly ur 109G10 mostly in BnZ modus (or at least as an E fighter). So whats the problem with the 190? If u take the D9 u have a G10 with better roll rate, better dive handling and a bit worse climb abilitiy. The acceleration is also good.
If u take the A5 or A8 u can IMO be more agressive than in D9 cause u can "turn" with ur enemies at least 90°. This is enough for many enemies, cause they will change direction and u get ur ... guess what ... snap shot.
If u have a spit or N1K that does a sustained turn to outturn u u can simply fly straight and run. With a P51 it is harder - as described above.
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Originally posted by Duedel
Sry guys but i dont agree. 190 is surely one of the best turner at 300mph.
Disagree with that. While your instant turn rate will be averagely good (N1K2, 109s, P51s, Spits, Typh, La7, La5, Yak9U, F6F, F4U, FM2, C205, 110G2 will outturn you or turn with you without problems at 300 mph), you are going to lose too much energy in a single 360d turn, even worse when the 190 is D9 or A8. 190s have a small advantage when turning at 400mph, but, again, your speed will drop very quick. Basically, if you need to turn horizontally in your 190 more than 45 degrees (to get a kill), you are doing something very wrong and more than probably you are going to be dead in few more seconds.
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Warhawk in the Bishops, is also a deadly efficient 190 pilot. He's particularly good with the 190A-5, and also deadly with the D-9. Try seeking him out and fight him... he has a very aggressive style of 190, and frnakly I can't figure out how he does that.
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Generally, the best piece of advice you can get is don't fly alone. The D9 can fly alone, as long as the pilot is extremely cautious. Even with the D9 you really have to stick with straight Boom and Zoom (think pendulum type attacks, an aggressive E style of fighting is not possible in the 190 like it is in the 109). The A5/A8 are to slow, and they can't accelerate or climb their way out of trouble like a 109 can.
If you get stuck in a situation where you are facing a slower plane like a spit or N1K2 that has more speed than you, there are a couple things you can do. If you are 1v1 with him, you are OK. If you are around a pack of them, just bail because you are going to die. The first thing you need to do is get him away from his friends, so you will go into a relatively shallow dive to get your speed up to something approaching his. Usually 350 mph is fast enough to keep them from closing on you. Next, you actually want to put him on your tail, and get him away from his friends if at all possible. If his friends decide to come to, and they are all slower than you, just keep running. If just the one guy decides to follow you, you can engage. What you will do is from a distance of 1.5k or so, go into a nice gentle turn to one side. If he keeps heading right at you, tighten the turn up as he gets closer. Ideally, he will be coming straight in doing about 350-375, and you will be pulling about a 4-5g turn coming across his nose. Now, you basically make a barrel roll around him as he comes in shooting. Going from your turn, you roll wings level, and pull up. As he passes under you, you roll to put the top of your head where he will come out (lift vector), and pull straight back down. If this is done correctly, you will be seeing him fly past through your gunsight, but you will be upside down. Don't bother to roll right-side up, just learn how to shoot inverted. Now if Mr. Spit decides to pull hard back into you and start a flat scissors, you will have maybe 1 or 2 more shots at him before he slows down enough to kill you. Hit those shots. If he decides to zoom, you will basically start the process over, so you run to get your speed back up, then try to sucker him in again. Do not follow him up in a zoom, because you will be roped and killed.
The 190 is really a one trick pony in a fight. You have to learn how to hit any shot you can get. The 190a5 can manuever relatively well, but the firepower is awful. The 190a8 has decent firepower, but the manueverability is awful. The D9 has awful manueverability and awful firepower, but it is fast at least.
For the 190d9, Mandoble is probably the best pilot to learn from if your goal is not to die. He flies Boom and Zoom, but he flies it reasonably aggressively. I fly much to aggressively in the D9 to be any good in it.
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Originally posted by Ecke-109-
Are there any ways to fight in an agressive manner in 190's?
I dont expect them to go in to a close turnfight.
But is there something else like B&Z to be sucessfull?
I mean...is it me or the 190 that i feel a bit helpless when coalt with an enemy (which is not a 190)?
I would really appreciate to get some films.
Please send to: ecke@abbeville.cc
:cool: I have some 109 films to swap :cool:
Thank you,
Ecke;)
BnZ is an aggressive tactic, it's just that many think BnZ means one pass and run like hell for the nearest friendly horde. BnZ, properly flown is extremely aggressive because the whole point is to be on the offensive the whole time while setting up your target for the kill.
It's been a long, long time since I've flown the FW190 (way back in early AW4W days) but it's a great energy fighter and usually any energy tactic, employed correctly will work. You should head on over to NetAces.org and read the lectures from BulletHead on Energy Management and Tactics, it will help you out a lot.
Ack-Ack
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BnZ is an aggressive tactic, it's just that many think BnZ means one pass and run like hell for the nearest friendly horde.
Ack-Ack,
lets stay serious :)
I am not very familiar with the terms.And please correct me if i am wrong.
Imo BnZ means:
to have an advantage in altitude (or speed, which i give up for alt). And from up there i start attacking downwards to the enemy. I come close with speed ,hoping for a snapshot, while the enemy flys a defensive turn against my direction. After the merge, i use my speed to climb above him again to repeat the attack.
Often, it looks like continuously flown loopings.
And somewhere at the bottom of the loopings is the target, hopefully presenting me a solution for a snapshot.
It depends of the skill of the attacker how often he can repeat. Because every loop consumes a little bit of energy ( or alt, what is the same), if not proper flown.
If that is BnZ, i do it often while in 109.
But in 109, BnZ is just an act of preparing.
From loop to loop, i fly them tighter to increase the pressure. And as soon as the enemy offers me the chance to follow him in to his turns, i do it.Thats the moment where the enemy gets big eyes and cold sweat. ;) I stick like glue at his six.
And it depends on the skills of my opponent how long he allows this 109 to stay behind him.
The point is, to notice the moment,when its better to break.
And then i can count on 109's acceleration. :)
That is, what the 190 cant do. And that is why i asked if there is something beside BnZ in 190.
If the defender has some skills, BnZ really can change to bore&zoom. From up to 20k to down low on the deck.
Ecke
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Read that at Soda's page :
Fw 190A-5 (http://www.telusplanet.net/~dsoder/Fw190A5.htm)
Fw 190A-8 (http://www.telusplanet.net/~dsoder/Fw190A8.htm)
Fw 190D-9 (http://www.telusplanet.net/~dsoder/Fw190D9.htm)
Fw 190F-8 (http://www.telusplanet.net/~dsoder/Fw190F8.htm)
Next ask Apar our squad FW dweeb and after we can wing a bit together
The FW at the exception of the D9 should not been used without wingman ... at least not by a suicidal dweeb like me
And don't forget that the FW have a generous amount of ammunition so you can spray a little :)
(shotgun effect you know ;))
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Yup. BnZ is a passive tactic in nature.
There aren't many planes that can kill the enemy strictly relying on BnZ passes. Usually it is a 'set-up' move where you force the target to bleed lots of E, so that you may take a very advantageous position to start off with the "real" attack.
Otherwise, the only instance where BnZ has any real value as a tactic which can actually shoot an enemy down, is when you get an unnoticed clean bounce, or when hordes of planes are attacking one low enemy. Almost always, BnZ is utterly useless when the target notices your presence.
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1 things for sure.....ya got some very good drivers here trying to give you some tips.....
I'm more of a Urchin type(naturally agressive) then a mandoble type(agressive but smart)........
I WILL turn a D9 against anything.....I will extend but i will come back.....most don't expect a D9 to be agressive.....its those first 2 or 3 turns that count...like Urchin described.
fly it....try not to be such a ***** like some in 190's......20k perchers.....
oh ya....Wilbuz is pretty good too....some others but I can't remember there names right now:cool:
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Originally posted by SLO
fly it....try not to be such a ***** like some in 190's......20k perchers.....
hehe..i forgive the 190 all bad manners which i normaly condemn.
If it is 'high-alt camping' or running.
As far as i can see, 190s really need to do such things to survive.
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I have to agree with Duedel,
The 190s are formidable, no you shouldn't follow anyone in a circle, but I can out scissor the best of the turners in an A5.
With a fuel load at 50% or less she’s a good bird at slow speeds you just have to get used to throwing her around. If you fly it right you can be very aggressive and most people will underestimate it's capabilities. It just takes time to get used to them.
My best advice is, fly the D9 in a boom and zoom, turn and extend mode - Fly the A5 like a 51 with bigger guns.
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One hint on turning in the 190s: If your enemy goes into a turn too hard to follow (any turn ;) ) and you want to follow roll in the /opposite/ direction from the enemy, and gently barrel roll around his flight path. At the bottom point of the roll, you usually can pull your nose in front od him and get either a nice snapshot or following opportunity.
But turning should only be done as a finishing move in A8/F8/D9. After you have bled your E, and you will, you`ll be a sitting duck. If I have the choice, the only planes I really engage in a close in fight are the Ponies, Corsairs, Jugs and Tiffies. Everything else should be BnZed to death.
If you`re looking for a dogfight, go with the A5 - it can do amazing maneuvers, remember the killer rollrate and capitalize on it.
BTW I want a 4 x MG151 Fw-190 A6. That would be the day :D
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Originally posted by mars01
IWith a fuel load at 50% or less she’s a good bird at slow speeds
30% of fuel is always my time to RTB and disengange. With so few fuel (50%) you will be able to fly 190s as much agressively as you want, but you will be a real menace for less than 5 mins, unless you dont plan to land your plane.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
Yup. BnZ is a passive tactic in nature.
It's not a passive tactic. It has evolved into a passive tactic by those that think you make your pass and run away but BnZ tactics used by someone that knows to to properly execute a BnZ attack, is quite aggressive. The whole point is to use your energy and altitude advantage to maneuever and set up your target for the kill. The only way to set the target up is to be aggressive in your attacks, otherwise you give the target a chance to maneuver away or build up E to be able to meet and counter your attacks.
Ack-Ack
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
It's not a passive tactic. It has evolved into a passive tactic by those that think you make your pass and run away but BnZ tactics used by someone that knows to to properly execute a BnZ attack, is quite aggressive. The whole point is to use your energy and altitude advantage to maneuever and set up your target for the kill. The only way to set the target up is to be aggressive in your attacks, otherwise you give the target a chance to maneuver away or build up E to be able to meet and counter your attacks.
Ack-Ack
Exactly ... If I am low and slow in my Spit V and I see a BnZer take a non-agressive zoom (45 degree angle) I am cool with that. It just gives me more time to build up some speed and E. If I see the BnZer take a more agressive zoom (75 to 80 degree angle), I know I am in trouble ... I may dodge him for a few passes, but will eventually lose enough E so that on one of the booms, he will get a good angle.
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE
30% of fuel is always my time to RTB and disengange.
Yeah I think the D9 blows through the fuel pretty fast, but I was talking about the A5.
I usually up with no less than 75% if it's a short hop. Prefered drop tank and 75%.
Once the fight starts I drop the tank, I fly aft tank down to 50% or 25% and then fly the forward tank throughout the rest of the fight. After a few BnZ, I'll be at 50% forward tank. At this point I can be more agressive.
Maybe you thought I meant 50% one tank - 50% forward 50% or less in the Aft she turns nice.
mars01 [M.A.W.] Blacksheep - XO
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It's not a passive tactic. It has evolved into a passive tactic by those that think you make your pass and run away but BnZ tactics used by someone that knows to to properly execute a BnZ attack, is quite aggressive. The whole point is to use your energy and altitude advantage to maneuever and set up your target for the kill. The only way to set the target up is to be aggressive in your attacks, otherwise you give the target a chance to maneuver away or build up E to be able to meet and counter your attacks.
That's the whole point, Ack. You and I, aren't saying different things. It's just that we don't share the same term when saying "BnZ".
The two sequence of the pure "Boom" and "Zoom" essentially looks forward to minimizing the risks, rather than maximizing the chances.
It became widely recognized through the potential it holds - giving the wielder all the cards to deal. However, there is also significant importance that this tactic became essential when certain plane types, which cannot risk a committed engagement due to inferior performance, began to develop the arts to the extreme. With the "BnZ" approach, one can go for a more aggressive engagement, try some more passes, or, if all else fails, just run away.
However, you seem to describe the whole process from the beginning of the engagement to the final shoot-down, as "BnZ".
The process, the term of "BnZ" itself, cannot be in anyway described as aggressive. The aggressiveness comes only after BnZ, not with it. The aggressive intent comes from the capable pilot who runs the whole engagement, with a specific purpose to continue the attack AFTER the BnZ, not WITH the BnZ itself.
And the part that comes after the initial stages of BnZ, is what people call "E Fighting", and this, is "aggressive fighting." Doing boring passes again and again like seagulls diving to catch fish, is not something one would call 'aggressive'.
BnZ itself, is a passive, over-hyped tactic, being tossed and thrown as an "answer to all" - somebody asks specific questions about tactics and everybody answers "BnZ".
Well, how many times has anyone actually been shot down by a BnZ? I'm betting not that many. It takes helluva gunnery to do that, and not many people, even in the world of AH, can do that.
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Kweassa, of course, literally, you are right. A P51 comming fast, firing and running fast is technically BnZooming. Just like a 190A8 turning in a mile is technically TnBurning.
Agressive BnZ should be done in a scale dependant on the number of enemies. If one vs one, the attacker should try to be always very close to the enemy, but far (or faster, or higher) enough to be outside his guns while getting an E-state/angle/altitude where the enemy cant evade the next attack and cant counterattack it. When done vs several cons, the distance/speed/altitude and possition should be carefully calculated to be a credible inmediate danger for all the enemies while having a clear way to attack inmediatelly at least one of them. Everytime I see an enemy comming fast, firing and running I simply ignore it. When you find a real BnZoomer, you can do whatever but ignore him, and more than problably, you and several of your country mates will end dead in few minutes. IMO, this is the most effective and reallistic aerial combat in a multybogey environment.
On the other hand TnB is whatever but an agressive way of fighting. You, usually, will be "agressive" just for one target, while being the target of multiple bandits. Basically, this way you are not a credible danger for your enemies, so, your agresiveness is totally innefective.
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Here's something that a long ago player in AW (and I think es-Kesmoid) Vossman (no, not that Voss) wrote up on the art of BnZ.
Vossman's BnZ tips (http://www.netaces.org/genbnz/bnz2.html)
Ack-Ack
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Originally posted by mars01
I have to agree with Duedel,
The 190s are formidable, no you shouldn't follow anyone in a circle, but I can out scissor the best of the turners in an A5.
I fly everything, but I have logged a lot of time in the 190A-5 and A-8 over the past several tours. Yes, you can use that excellent roll rate to scissor your way into an overshoot. But, if the enemy pilot knows 190s real well, he'll know how to counter the scissors.
How's that done? Quite simply really. Pull the nose up, roll inverted and evaporate the guy as he rolls into the next reverse. He's killing his E by reversing his turns, you kill yours by doing a rolling yo-yo. When you come back down, you are accelerating on a course very near to his reciprical, even if you miss the shot, you have converted into enough E to chandelle, then vector-roll right back onto him. He will not have enough E to pull nose high to counter. Now he's low, slow and soon to be very dead. Try it.
My regards,
Widewing
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other than turnfighting or BnZ ? yeah here's another way ram them at medium speed LOL.
what other way is there to fight in an a/c ? theres only 2 ways.
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Wildwing why would you assume that the 190 would just continue the scissors? If I see him going vertical, then I pull vertical and you end up in a vertical scissors. It's a wild ride either way you look at it and you know your in a fun fight.
mars01
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Originally posted by mars01
If I see him going vertical, then I pull vertical and you end up in a vertical scissors.
With a 190s? Unless you are very low on fuel, you will have no chances in the vertical starting at low speed after the scissors. More than problably, you are going to stall the 190 inmediately.
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Let's not forget the HO here, gents.. When low and slow it's a viable option. 190's are small and has a good gun package. Loose off a salvo at 1000 yards and get out of the way :D The dispersion of 30mm, 20mm and 13 mm will ensure a few hits. Just stay away from hispanos :p
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hehe i like this thread, hey ecke i remember a fight a couple of months ago iin which after about 5 minutes you popped an a8 with your 109 was a hell of a fight though wish i'd filmed it, i find 50 fuel and a drop tank get alt , takes awhile and use it for what it was design for , a 1st strike machine, with the aft tank burnt off 1st and use your nous to turn not the tail always nose down, now by no means am i an expert, but i aint to bad in it, haven't flown for awhile though, good luck.
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Thanks to all,
a lot of input here.
It looks like the first thing i should be used to, is to switch the tanks manually.
I did that in the past a few times. But i found it uncomfortable to always keep an eye on the fuel-indicator. But now i guess its mandatory, when trying to be sucessfull in 190.
Hey Krazyhorse.
Very sorry that i didnt remember our fight. I shouldnt smoke so much. Its worth to keep fights against 190s in memory. Because there arent so much.
Respect to all 190 riders which are coming close to my 109 for having some fun together.Tough guys..silly guys...but always brave.
You fly 190 with only 50% and DT? Isnt that a bit short?
Since 2 months or so, i start taking off in 109 with 100% plus DT.
( Thanks to Yaws for inspiration:) )
Ecke
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MANDOBLE,
If we are in the scissors then our speeds are close.
If the con is fast enough to go vertical its safe to assume the so am I. If we are in the slow latter portion of the scissors then neither of us are going vertical.
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actually yes, not much time after ya drop your tank, get yer kills and run like hell , now that may not be everyones way but in that bird thats how i fly it
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Yep,
Mandoble I retract my last post - Yes the 190 A5 will go vert.
So wildwing's maneuver will work on a noob, but any seasoned 190 pilot will be able to counter.
TW9 - I just took a spit 5 and a 190 A5 off line 50% fuel for both. It was surprising to see they are quite similar in this regard.
The Test:
Take off the spit speed 120, get 100 ft above ground throttle to idle till speed was 100, full power pull back strait up. It took about 8 to 9 secs to reach stall and wing over at about 850 ft.
Take off in 190 A5 speed 100, get 100 ft above ground throttle to idle till speed was 100, full power pull back strait up. It took about 8 to 9 secs to reach stall and wing over at about 900 ft.
Try it your self. I know I have faced these moves in the MA and won in an A5.
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Hey TW9,
Yeah the spit is definitely more forgiving at low speed no doubt about it.
I like the stability of the spit, but I can't stand flying around that slow. It puts me to sleep and the roll rate sucks.
If you look at the HTC charts the A5 out climbs the spit to about 5k then the spit takes over. The A5 owns the spit in top speed throughout the curve.
Once a 190 driver gets comfortable with the low speed characteristics ( good use of rudder ) I think it is the other way around. Under 5k the spit is dead 8). Above 5k the 190 driver has to watch the 500 fpm better climb rate of the spit but the speed difference should help the A5 driver equalize that.
I'll check out the H2H, sounds like fun.
Good Luck, see you there.
mars01
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Originally posted by Ecke-109-
You fly 190 with only 50% and DT? Isnt that a bit short?
75% + DT, 100% + DT or 100% as minimum. And, if you have the advantage, try to keep your DT as much time as possible.
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The 190A5 pretty much dominates a Spit V in every department except for turning. Particularly in scenario or snapshot situations, unless a Spit V manages to jump an A5, the A5 quickly tends to control the fight and may enter or egress at will.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
the A5 quickly tends to control the fight and may enter or egress at will.
Unless the SpitV decides to do a so elementary move as gain alt, where 190A5 cant compete at all.
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE
Unless the SpitV decides to do a so elementary move as gain alt, where 190A5 cant compete at all.
Yeah above 5k in an A5, and then it is only about 500 fpm, so the 190 extends while spit climbs, uses superior speed to zoom climb and maneuver is neutralized and both pilots are asleep. lol.
The D9 will out perform the spit in climb and speed all day long.
You make it sound like the 190s are no match for anything. lolh. I like the move counter move thing going on, definately a good way to get tactics down. for some good ideas.
Oh well.
TW9, sorry I meant I'll see you in there at some point - I have to go quell my MA craving, if it suks as usual, I'll check out the H2H 8)
mars01
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE
Unless the SpitV decides to do a so elementary move as gain alt, where 190A5 cant compete at all.
You do realize, of course, that the A5 easily outclimbs the Spit V under 5k. Above that, it's close enough as to not truly become an issue in an actual fight. Given the A5's superior top speed at just about every altitude, it's unlikely that the Spit V could peel away long enough to utilize any climb advantage over 5k anyway.
Unless you're suggesting that the Spit V should simply climb to an altitude above the 190A5 before engaging, which is pretty silly since an altitude advantage in anything represents an often insurmountable obstacle to the lower plane.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
You do realize, of course, that the A5 easily outclimbs the Spit V under 5k. Above that, it's close enough as to not truly become an issue in an actual fight.
Of course, A5 climbs below 3000 fpm at 10k, SpitV at 3500. If that is not an issue, the advantage of A5 below 5k is an issue in actual fight? BTW, you are talking about substained climb rate at a constant speed, and this kind of climb is not ussual in combat. End of futile discussion.
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE
Of course, A5 climbs below 3000 fpm at 10k, SpitV at 3500. If that is not an issue, the advantage of A5 below 5k is an issue in actual fight? BTW, you are talking about substained climb rate at a constant speed, and this kind of climb is not ussual in combat. End of futile discussion.
Yes, I'm talking about sustained climb rate at a constant speed because you never made it clear what you meant by "decides to do a so elementary move as gain alt." Do you mean zoom climb? Grab alt out of the fight? A sustained climb? It's not at all obvious what you're saying here.
In any event, as usual you're wrong. At least you bailed out early before it got embarrassing.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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hehe P38 will kill em all :D
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Oh yes I do know the rest:-0 seriously any 190 coalt with P38 will die if it dont run or HO ya. 109s can get good sometimes depending whos flying it but P38 will out do it coalt. 109e4 and f4 give me problems though. I think what an idiot hes taking that G10 and trying to turnfight me and next thing I know hes on my 6 :-( . I gotta get better at identifing the 109s. I have had some 190 fights where were both slow but I get thrown off with the sicorss. Roll rate horible in P38 when slow.
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Some of my longest fights were 190 vs 109, especialy the G10. Usually turns out me chasing him and hes faster. I usually dictate my fights. Then the after a period of time the G10s come back at me. The F4, G2, G6s often try to TNB me. I fly 109s also so I know them well enough. 190 vs 109 is a fun fight.
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Originally posted by mars01
Wildwing why would you assume that the 190 would just continue the scissors? If I see him going vertical, then I pull vertical and you end up in a vertical scissors. It's a wild ride either way you look at it and you know your in a fun fight.
mars01
Too late. Your airspeed will be too low to get the nose up high enough to do anything about it. Especially if your enemy has a good climbing, and hence, good accelerating fighter. For example, an La-5FN, or a Spitfire Mk.IX being two.
In fact, I tend to agree with Mandoble that the most dangerous fighter in this game is a Spit9 with an altitude advantage piloted by someone who knows how to fly it, which fortunately, usually isn't the case.
In general, I find the defensive scissors a move of desperation. I can't think of a single instance where the target escaped destruction. I can't over-emphasize that once you realize a defensive scissors is required, you've already screwed the pooch big time.
I simply will not scissor with the enemy, except if I'm flying a really underpowered aircraft that scrubs E like a racing tire. There are several very effective ways to quickly end a scissors fight. However, you need to know what to do and when to do it. That means knowing the full capabilities of your fighter and your opponent's fighter.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Widewing
In fact, I tend to agree with Mandoble that the most dangerous fighter in this game is a Spit9 with an altitude advantage piloted by someone who knows how to fly it, which fortunately, usually isn't the case.
Seeing as how the Spit IX is pretty much the best all-around fighter plane in the game, a Spit IX with altitude really shines. Hard to disagree there.
Except that Mandoble keeps talking about Spit Vs in this thread, or at least he keeps responding to people who are talking about Spit Vs. And while a Spit V with an altitude advantage poses as serious a threat as any plane, I wouldn't put it in the same league as the Spit IX. A 190A5 with air beneath it at least has some escape options against it.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by TW9
May i add again that i was talking about an a5 and spit5 low and slow on the deck in sissors? :D
A5 has no surviving chances at all.
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Originally posted by TW9
a5 can go vertical after take off at 100mph
:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
Are we playing the same AH???? Or do you mean SpitV?
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i find rolling scissars to be an effective move, usally the enamy can be forced into an over shoot situation,
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TW9, with 190A5, WEP ON you can hardly take off at 100mph, no way at at to go near vertical. In your film, your frustrated attempts were done at 125 mph, not 110, and at the end you were well below 50% of fuel, and no, no vertical climb at 100 mph at all.
Take also into consideration that due fuel burn rate, usually the 190A5 will fight with no less than 60% of fuel taking off with 100% or 75% + DT. You will need a lot of WEP usage in that plane, and that has a high fuel cost.
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE
Take also into consideration that due fuel burn rate, usually the 190A5 will fight with no less than 60% of fuel taking off with 100% or 75% + DT. You will need a lot of WEP usage in that plane, and that has a high fuel cost.
Thank goodness the 190A5 possesses almost twice the WEP time of the Spit V... not to mention drop tanks to compensate for the extra fuel burn.
You are correct that a low and slow A5 in a scissoring fight with a Spit V stands almost no chance of winning, but yet again you're trying to talk down the capabilities of a very decent plane.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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The 190A5 is a great plane in context with other planes that are similar to it. It stacks up pretty well against the Spit V, P-47s, P-38, P-51s. La7s, Spit IXs, and N1K2s are superior in just about every way possible.
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Spit IX and some Niki's can give me some problems but I dont worry too much about La-7s unless they are flown by uber La-7 pilots. I TNB with La-7s, good fights.
La7s cant hit very well when they're going too fast and if they slow down, they're a fair fight for 190s, specially the A5.