Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Axis vs Allies => Topic started by: Sakai on July 07, 2003, 10:10:04 AM
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From Axis fields.
Is there a reaon we can't drop the Ki-67 and Boston and make tis a single-engine campaign???
Sakai
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2nd this
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Wouldn't the B5N fit better than the Ki67 anyway?
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4th
Why not give it a try? Its only a week.
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5th
..but I dont count :-)
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Originally posted by CurtissP-6EHawk
5th
..but I dont count :-)
Except to 5.
Sakai
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The B5N is suposed to be enabled, I will check the seting's.
Yes their is a reasion the Ki 67 and Boston are enabled.
If you had just the Kate and the VAl aganst the SBD, you would have a problem, the SBD is realy a mid war plane and it is a very deadly plane aganst the Zero, it's twin 30's in the tail can kill a Zero easly and it's twin 50's in the nose are effective aganst the Zero as well, and it handels decently enought to be able to get kills aganst it. The Kate is basical unarmend and is for the most part not a plane anyone is going to use, and if they do they likely not to reach their target, the Val has half the bombload as the SBD and while it does actualy have guns it is still in now way an SBD. What you left with in this case is the allies haveing three efective planes the Huricane the P40 and the SBD aganst the Zero. The bomber equation is also compleatly screwed and only the Kate has a bomb sight.
With the Boston and the Ki 67 enabled the bigest problem we have is the incessent whining that occures because they are to fast to be caught most of time and this is realy irating people, folks we nead more planes to do many of the set up's we wnat to do and do them right untill then at times we are going to have to make do with what we have. Personaly I dont bother trying to intercept the buffs on this map I look for the fighters to go and kill, I cant catch them they arent going to do much if any real damage if they reach their target and their their so people who like buff's and their sights can have a toy to play with.
Other posable Sub's and why their not being used:
JU 88, get real this plane has a 6K bombload, almost all Japanese bombers caried around 1800 pounds, it's way tougher, can dive bomb (somthing japanes Twin engined Buff's couldent do), It's German, ect...
TBM, well this mid war plane actualy more deadly to the A6M2 than the Boston is in terms of it's defensive firepower, it's two forward 50's are also more effective than the Bostons 303's , and it's not Japanese. Again the down side hear is that were tiping the scales back in the Allied favor in the bomber catagory by puting a plane in that is more deadly to the Japanese than it is to the Allies.
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Originally posted by brady
The B5N is suposed to be enabled, I will check the seting's.
Yes their is a reasion the Ki 67 and Boston are enabled.
we understand these reasons but
1) no B5N since inception Friday and
2) Clearly we all think it is worth a try. The SBD is not that great and the Kate is deadly accurate in delivery.
I kill every SBD I see when in a Val but I haven't seen many this time out for Burma.
The main reason people fly Bostons and Ki-67s is to wipe out fighters. Let's get the bombers back to being bombers.
We know we ned early war buffs, we don't have them so let's stick with the single engined jobs. They are all slow and anemic.
Sakai
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I fixed the B5N, it is available now.
"2) Clearly we all think it is worth a try. The SBD is not that great and the Kate is deadly accurate in delivery."
Yes most of those posting that favore removing the planes they think should be removed do seam to agree with one another:), but they also seam to be missing the larger issue at hand that is tied to this.
"I kill every SBD I see when in a Val but I haven't seen many this time out for Burma. "
Well I killed most all the Zero's(A6M2's) that tryed to kill me in a SBD when I was in one on the slot map, this doesent change the potential lethality and bomb weight discrepency's.
"The main reason people fly Bostons and Ki-67s is to wipe out fighters. Let's get the bombers back to being bombers."
We it's takes two to do this doesent it, It's prety hard to get real agressive in a peggy it has no fixed guns and it is not real nimble, so if you troling for fighter's you nead someone to bight. The Boston is a bit different it can be used far more agresively but inso doing it loses most of it's advantages and can then be killed, but they can be easly avoided, just like the Peggy.
"We know we ned early war buffs, we don't have them so let's stick with the single engined jobs. They are all slow and anemic."
Again your missing the big picture hear:
"If you had just the Kate and the VAl aganst the SBD, you would have a problem, the SBD is realy a mid war plane and it is a very deadly plane aganst the Zero, it's twin 30's in the tail can kill a Zero easly and it's twin 50's in the nose are effective aganst the Zero as well, and it handels decently enought to be able to get kills aganst it. The Kate is basical unarmend and is for the most part not a plane anyone is going to use, and if they do they likely not to reach their target, the Val has half the bombload as the SBD and while it does actualy have guns it is still in now way an SBD. What you left with in this case is the allies haveing three efective planes the Huricane the P40 and the SBD aganst the Zero. The bomber equation is also compleatly screwed and only the Kate has a bomb sight."
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Brady "...the SBD ....... and it is a very deadly plane aganst the Zero, it's twin 30's in the tail can kill a Zero easly...."
so why are the four .30s in the P-40B, (and nose .50s?) and twin .30s in the nose, 6 guns, not as deadly as the two little .30s in the SBD's tail, or even 6 guns vs two .50s in the nose of the SBD?
Hmmm did you just say something wrong?
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This goes toward the comparison of the guns relative to the balance issue regarding the Bomber's and side balancing, while the SBD is more deadly to the Zero than the Kate or val are to the Huricane or to the P40, thus we have an imbalance on this point, and other's, (in this scenario being proposed).
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Ahsh, Master, Grasshoppah not ready yet :)
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Originally posted by Sakai
we understand these reasons but
\The main reason people fly Bostons and Ki-67s is to wipe out fighters. Let's get the bombers back to being bombers.
Sakai
Sakai is right. I don't squeak about the speed of the bombers because I can't catch them. In fact I killed 19 Bostons yesterday. All you got to do is have an alt advantage to hunt em. I squeak because people get in there and use them as fighters. And if you call them on it, their answer is........ It's only got two 303s. Two 303s will kick stuffing out of a zeke thats in a fight with a couple of Hurris, and or P-40's , and some puke decides to start cherry picking the fights. If they have a gunner they get a crack at you on the engress, and the egress.
The TBM for both sides for a medium bomber would be the best bet. Yeah the firepower is more than the Boston, but you won't see as many people using them as some kind of half assed P-47. No insult intended 56th FG. :D
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I think they have 4 303's in the nose, unless I am tryping they do:). Ya they get used that way, and ya if ya get a good line up on a Zero you can rip them apart with them, but you are seeing them, if we had the TBM you most likely would not see many of them, and all it would be is fighter's in the air, fighters that cary no effeective ordance for atacking the bases with.
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Boston has 4 .303's. I would take a Zero over a SBD anyday. Yes if given half a chance it will knock down a Zeke but is it that unbalanceing? WHy not try without the bombers for a few days? If its sucks then oh well, dont do it again.
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Yep give it a try.
Or if the bombers are so important turn off all the fighters and let the bombers dogfight atleast they'll catch each other... kidding on last part.. :D
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If you had just the Kate and the VAl aganst the SBD, you would have a problem, the SBD is realy a mid war plane and it is a very deadly plane aganst the Zero, it's twin 30's in the tail can kill a Zero easly and it's twin 50's in the nose are effective aganst the Zero as well, and it handels decently enought to be able to get kills aganst it. The Kate is basical unarmend and is for the most part not a plane anyone is going to use, and if they do they likely not to reach their target, the Val has half the bombload as the SBD and while it does actualy have guns it is still in now way an SBD. What you left with in this case is the allies haveing three efective planes the Huricane the P40 and the SBD aganst the Zero. The bomber equation is also compleatly screwed and only the Kate has a bomb sight.
Since you nead bombs to take a base (unless you use GV,which you kinda nead bombs to kill), the bomber equation is important, if we pull the Boston and the Pegy the whole thing gets screwed up balance wise, btw we have tryed this in the past, before we had the Boston and the Peggy, all we used all the time was the B26 or the TBM, we (the colective conshisness of the staff) know for the most part what the effect will be.
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Originally posted by brady
If you had just the Kate and the VAl aganst the SBD, you would have a problem,
Thanks for the Kates, upped one, popped a VH base, landed it--that plane handles so sweetly.
Your argument is absolute silliness Brady, you are simply being obtuse.
There is no harm in trying this set without the Ki-67. Hell, I would let the Allies keep the Boston and Fly Jap without the Ki-67. It is a fighter sweep machine--you fly over bases and kill the fighters, it is the most out of place plane I've seen in any scenario. When you get to Mid War AC, groovy, add it but not earlier. I have flown it, it absolutely rules allied fighters when they are contending with zero tactics.
What you are saying is "if the planets align and we only fly SBDs and the zero pilots are morons" that all will be lost and then woe unto the republic. Tell you what. You get 20 guys, put them in SBDs, I'll get 20, we'll take zekes. You'll get bored trying to catch or kill us, you'll be tired of being killed by guys underneath you and you'll start flying P-40s. The days when guys had CT goobers that had never seen an SBD stall over them a couple K higher and would climb to them in zekes are few and far between--most guys now know better. If they don't, I reckon they will learn early enough.
In this setup few bases have changed hands. Clearly this is not an issue to EVERYONE posting, your stubbornness though is.
You are simply being stubborn dude, give it a TRY you have NOTHING to lose.
The match-up that is intriguing in this setup is the Zero vs. P-40/Hurricane combo--everything else is a sideshow and the Ki-67 is the single most unbalancing factor in that match-up. That is to say, you are talking about balance while the greatest element contributing to any unbalance is being left in. Worrying about a single SBD is silly, it can kill a zeke--but not 6-9 of them. A smart guy can sweep a field of enemy fighters by dragging them up to him, in his Ki-67---No SBD will ever accomplish anything remotely like that. You say "It takes two . . ." well it takes a moron in a Zeke to climb slowly up the 6 of an SBD also man, the Ki-67 is tooooooooo muuuuuuuuuch plaaaaaaaaane. Like I say, when you get Wildcats, Hellcats, Corsairs, OK. Even P-40Es because they can shred a Ki-67 with their firepower and have some pursuit speed, but the poor B model just gets blasted to hell and Hurricanes are cat chow for the Ki-67. This weekend I went AFK, came back and a Hurri was trying to shoot down my formation. He had one plane smoking so I got in the tail and sent him to hell with one stream of fireat about 450--his guns are not terribly effective at that range you know. I did not even use the 5" twin mount naval gun on top, that would have been pointlessly cruel.
Oh, if guys want to take a base that badly (the 67 is crappy for that role) you can coordinate ground and air attacks and do it in about 3-5 minutes using single engine bombers, LVTs with the 75 Howie and M8s/M3s.
Sakai
(aka MeanBobMean)
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Personally I dont think an SBD really has any chance against a decently flown zeke. Obviously it will soak up some 20mm before it goes. Only damage I got in 3-4 encounters was a punctured fuel tank (meylo) I think. I thought both Tankman and meylo flew the plane very well just not really much in way of viable options.
Personally I dont think the plane set matchs up well...the p40 and hurricane simply are not a match for the zeke.
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decently flown zeke? More like some half cocked newbie in the zeke will down that sbd.
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Originally posted by ergRTC
decently flown zeke? More like some half cocked newbie in the zeke will down that sbd.
Apparently you haven't heard about how the SBD is so unbalancing, such a potent and terrifying weapon that the Japanese considered surrender the first time they faced it.
Why, we might have to enable 163s just to balance out any CT setup that has them.
Sakai
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Originally posted by humble
...Personally I dont think the plane set matchs up well...the p40 and hurricane simply are not a match for the zeke.
So far the A6M2 has a 1.2 : 1 kill ratio over the P-40B and Hurricane I combined.
Its only one statistic, but it does suggest the Tomahawk and Hurricane have a fighting chance against the Zeke.
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I think the p40b is an excellent match for the zeke. You have to be careful, but it will get you home most of the time.
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At one time I had a 25 kill vs 2 loss in the P-40B vs A6M2. I could not slow down at all against the A6M2 and I dont recall killing any A6M2 that was not bzy with any other allied plane. I didn't claim to be a good fighter pilot but thats how I got my kills.
at one time;
P-40E vs Ju-87, 4 Kills, 0 losses
P-40E vs Ju-88, 14 Kills, 0 losses***
P-40E vs C-47, 1 kill, 0 losses
P-40E vs Bf-110, 13 Kills, 2 losses*
P-40E vs Bf-109E, 13 Kills, 0 losses
P-40E vs C-202, 12 Kills, 0 losses
P-40B vs A6M2, 22 Kills, 2 losses**
P-40B vs Ki-67, 2 Kills, 0 losses***
P-40E/B misc. 27 Assists
*In the P-40E vs the Bf-110, I had 13 kills, 2 losses. One loss consisted of a spin and crash with no hits from the Bf-110. My other death was because I was vulched by a Bf-110 on the refuel pad.
**P-40B vs A6M2, was caught twice by secondary fighters. Pesky Varments
***I dont chase Bomber very often :)
P-40B/E
TOTAL: 81 Kills, 27 Assists, 4 Losses (2 technical) ..death is a death.. :)
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Current CT Scores
Air-to-Air Fighter
A6M2..............1039 Kills
P-40B...............427 Kills
Hurri MkI...........329 Kills
Axis.................1039 Kills
Allied.................756 Kills
Air-to-Air Bomber
Ki-67................112 Kills
Boston...............31 Kills
SBD-5................32 Kills
D3A1...................3 Kills
B5N2...................2 Kills
Axis..................117 Kills
Allied..................63 Kills
Total Air-to-Air
Axis...................1156 Kills
Allied..................819 Kills
Axis by..............337 Kills
Air-to-Air
A6M2...............476 Kills
P-40B..............340 Kills
A6M2 by..........136 Kills
A6M2...............344 Kills
Hurrican MkI......309 Kills
A6M2 by............35 Kills
Ki-67.................65 Kills
P-40B................77 Kills
Ki-67.................47 Kills
Hurricane............20 Kills
Ki-67...................3 Kills
Boston.................0 Kills
Ki-67...................0 Kills
SBD-5..................1 Kills
Ki-67 by 15 Kills vs Allied Fighters
A6M2 by 131 Kills vs Boston
A6M2...............162 Kills
Boston III..........31 Kills
A6M2.................57 Kills
SBD-5................31 Kills
D3A1...................3 Kills
P-40B..................8 Kills
B5N2...................2 Kills
P-40B..................2 Kills
D3A1...................0 Kills
SBD-5..................1 Kills
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Includes ground GV and PT Boat Kills
A6M2........1080 Kills, 785 Deaths
Hurri MkI....608 Kills, 702 Deaths
P-40B.........458 Kills, 630 Deaths
Ki-67..........131 Kills, 140 Deaths
Boston III....89 Kills, 450 Deaths
SBD-5...........68 Kills, 99 Deaths
D3A1..............9 Kills, 16 Deaths
B5N2..............8 Kills, 7 Deaths
C-47...............3 Kills, 41 Deaths
Troop Transports
C-47 IJA/N......2 Kills, 24 Deaths
C-47 Allied......1 Kills, 17 Deaths
M-3 IJA/N....23 Kills, 36 Deaths
M-3 Allied....22 Kills, 43 Deaths
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There ya have it, the A6M2 rules the roost.
The Ki-61 does not belong.
The D3A1 and B5N2 bombers are not being used.
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Originally posted by CurtissP-6EHawk
Current CT Scores
Air-to-Air Fighter
Thanks for the stats!
Sakai