Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: midnight Target on July 08, 2003, 09:50:18 AM
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Since the Evolution debates always seem to degenerate into a question of faith vs. observation, I wonder if there is a way to reconcile religion and science, especially when a scientific observation flies in the face of a religious belief.
For the most part, I believe that religion has been the largest hindrance to the expansion of man's knowledge over recorded history.
Some have speculated that the burning of the Library of Alexandria (by the Christians) may have cost us thousands of years of stored knowledge.
While there are instances of Religious men doing stellar work in the sciences, it wasn't their religion that urged them as much as their ability to think beyond their religion.
So has religion helped us or hurt us regarding our knowledge of the world?
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(http://www.muskie-lures.com/rocketman/structure1.gif)
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Seems like I've read this post before.
Religion has definitely advanced the arts, philosophy and science.
All these things are hard to do without help of some kind.:)
If you don't believe in God, believe in repetition, practice and self discipline.
Les
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i am not a monkey
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Some have speculated that the burning of the Library of Alexandria (by the Christians) may have cost us thousands of years of stored knowledge.
This could be a thread all its own.
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Monkeys evolved from Man....:eek:
:D
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Insecurities emerge in threads about religion all the time, nothing scientific about that, Midnight.
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I gotta say Rip. The "huh?" factor of your posts has increased lately.
I don't see where insecurity ws mentioned or even alluded to.
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Search for Dinger's posts on the subject. His knowledge of the topic exceeds the collective knowledge of the rest of the community. :)
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Originally posted by midnight Target
I gotta say Rip. The "huh?" factor of your posts has increased lately.
I don't see where insecurity ws mentioned or even alluded to.
Damn, no bait even...just a bare hook....I gotta say Midnight, the "huh?" factor of your nibbles has increased lately.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
So has religion helped us or hurt us regarding our knowledge of the world?
If religion is so hurtful to mankind as your post suggests, a better (imo) question would be why have we stuck with it for so very long?
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Damn Dirty Apes!!
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Originally posted by AKIron
If religion is so hurtful to mankind as your post suggests, a better (imo) question would be why have we stuck with it for so very long?
Excellent question.
Maybe for the same reason we stuck with drugs and alcohol. It feels good.
In other words, sticking with something doesn't necessarily equate to it being good for you.
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Kinda like sugary cereal?
I gotta have my Pops. ::Jaws music::
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How come the most successful and dominant societies were based on religous principles?
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Originally posted by funkedup
How come the most successful and dominant societies were based on religous principles?
Conservatism.
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Because Apes don't know how to pray? :rolleyes:
:D
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Originally posted by AKIron
If religion is so hurtful to mankind as your post suggests, a better (imo) question would be why have we stuck with it for so very long?
Fear and guilt. Works every time.
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religion and facts need a restraining order on each other.
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Initium sapientiae timor domini.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Excellent question.
Maybe for the same reason we stuck with drugs and alcohol. It feels good.
In other words, sticking with something doesn't necessarily equate to it being good for you.
OK, I kinda considered that a given, why then does it feel good? Is it natural selection that causes us to do those things that "feel good", like sex for example, to ensure survival of the species? To address your example of alcohol use, it's probably beneficial to your health when used in moderation.
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Originally posted by funkedup
How come the most successful and dominant societies were based on religous principles?
Rome?
Ionian Greece?
United States?
USSR?
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Religion is a security blanket. Nothing more, nothing less.
It should surprise nobody that people get angry when you seem to be taking their security blanket away from them.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Rome?
Ionian Greece?
United States?
USSR?
Rome: Hey Claudius! whos' your God?.. well, I've always been a follower of Mars. Lasts several centuries
Greece: Hey Pelleponiuos! whos' your God?.. well, I've always been a follower of Apollo. Lasts several centuries
USA: When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary...to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
227 and counting
USSR: State declared athiesm, due to Marx's 'opiate of the masses' statement.
Lasts 80 years.
There may be something to the theory, although my personal belief is apathiestic.
Live your life doing your best to be a good man, and people will remember a good man.
Science and Religion will always be at odds, as the scientific method is based on what can be provable through repeated experiment, where faith is based upon belief in the unprovable.
A leap of faith is by it's very nature illogical:
Logic is the base of argument.
Therefore it is impossible to successfully argue faith.
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Originally posted by AKIron
If religion is so hurtful to mankind as your post suggests, a better (imo) question would be why have we stuck with it for so very long?
Religion is the opiate of the masses.
We haven't stuck with it as much as we have been stuck with it.
By the way, belief in God is not religion either.
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Originally posted by Syzygyone
Religion is the opiate of the masses.
We haven't stuck with it as much as we have been stuck with it.
By the way, belief in God is not religion either.
Folks throughout history have many times and frequently shucked oppresive leaders and/or governments with little hesitancy. I disagree that religion is something we're stuck with, that concept just isn't congruent with the first statement in this paragraph.
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Originally posted by AKIron
Folks throughout history have many times and frequently shucked oppresive leaders and/or governments with little hesitancy. I disagree that religion is something we're stuck with, that concept just isn't congruent with the first statement in this paragraph.
Historically, the "shucking" that has gone on, more often than not, I think, has been justified with religion. Even Hitler called on God and I bet so did Ghengi s Khan, and Alexander, and Attilla the Hun, etc etc. Historically, organized religion is accepted and used by political leaders to control civilian populations. Religion has often been used to keep the masses in control, with the "church" closely aligned with whatever political government exists at the time. As religions changed, and populations clashed, and religions ran into each other, they were used as justification for genocide and wars. Even in the U.S. religious persecution played a large role in our revolution, did it not.
Anyway, you are free to not feel stuck with religion. I certainly don't think any less of a religious person. That's their choice, just not mine. But I do get a little uppitty when they try to force the religion on me and mine, be they Christians, Buddhits, or be they Islamists.
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Originally posted by Syzygyone
But I do get a little uppitty when they try to force the religion on me and mine, be they Christians, Buddhits, or be they Islamists.
As do most Americans including me.
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I choose to believe in a God, I choose to believe in evolution to a certain extent.
However, I refuse to insult someone who is involved in an organized religion and insinuate it is a plague, even if I don't agree with it. Many of them are better men than I.
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last i heard opium is the opiate of the masses. and karl was the least funny of the marx brothers, so what would he know. nothing i want to laugh at.
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"Parents bring up their children believing in Santa Claus, then wonder why children don't just believe in God on their say-so" - English comedian, Jasper Carrot.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Since the Evolution debates always seem to degenerate into a question of faith vs. observation, I wonder if there is a way to reconcile religion and science, especially when a scientific observation flies in the face of a religious belief.
For the most part, I believe that religion has been the largest hindrance to the expansion of man's knowledge over recorded history.
Some have speculated that the burning of the Library of Alexandria (by the Christians) may have cost us thousands of years of stored knowledge.
While there are instances of Religious men doing stellar work in the sciences, it wasn't their religion that urged them as much as their ability to think beyond their religion.
So has religion helped us or hurt us regarding our knowledge of the world?
LIke everything else, the answer is both.
Islam has provided us with a thousand years of Scholarship that moved us from astrology to astronomy, gave us the number 0, and heavily influenced western moral philosophy.
Laz was right about the religion/discipline link. The way religion permits you to shun the self in favour of service to others, to repeat and devote yourself to a given field (like the Mendel the monk and his peas).
The burning of the Library at alexandria does not mean that we are somehow 500 years behind our potential development. It is impossible to say how it affected the development of western scientific thinking, and wrong to automatically surmise that it somehow damaged our 'progress'.
Even the concept of progress as affected by religion is a pretty spurious nineteenth century invention, this Idea that mankind is somehow moving forward in anything but time.
So Religion and Science are at least as old as one another, and it is only recently that the two have been distinguished from one another. They exist in harmony for the most part.
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Originally posted by bounder
So Religion and Science are at least as old as one another, and it is only recently that the two have been distinguished from one another. They exist in harmony for the most part.
Isn't that a quote attributed to Galileo?
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not that I'm aware of - I just wrote it.
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over history huge swathes of knowledge have been destroyed by religious fanatics.Christians burned libraries in the middle east, The great library of the greeks burned,Hitler tried it too by burning all material he deemed un-nazilike :) nazism not a religion? I think you'd best look into just how weird it all got.They even believed they could use the spirits of long dead tutonic knights to empower their warriors!, Hitler sought the 'spear of destiny', the spear that apparently peirced Jesus's side on the cross.Legend has it that an army with this is invinsible.(hehe maybe he mislayed it in 1944 :D)
Religion , without doubt has been the cause of huge losses to our knowledge.Not only by destroying records but by persecuting the thinkers of their time.Imagine how many genious people throughout history were stopped by the religious fanaticism that branded any contrary thinker a heretic and burned them at the stake.
Its even happening today with things like genetics. Whether we like it or not the use of genetics will continue but its much to do with religion that holds it back presently.The debate enters the 'messing with gods work' far more often than the subject of how it could actually stop huge amounts of suffering for people with degenerative deseases. Plus look at the wars going on. Its all religion and money. The greed for money and the excuse religion gives nations to act in totally inhumane ways.
RELIGION SUCKS, its just a way to control people by fear.If it was adhered to in the true way it was probably intended then we'd all be fine but unfortunately it has just becme a tool of power.True it has indeed been the home of science in a way for it was generally religious types who wrote it all down but due to the ferocity of the various factions all they ever did was try to destroy what the other had achieved. BAN religion I say :) BURN EM , BURN EM AT THE STAKE!!! YAAAAAYYYYY
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Originally posted by bounder
Islam has provided us with a thousand years of Scholarship that moved us from astrology to astronomy, gave us the number 0, and heavily influenced western moral philosophy.
Islam is a religion. Please point out the specific source in Islam of the concept of Zero. I don't contest that those and other fundamental concepts came from those who might have practiced Islam as a religion, but to attribute those concepts to the religion is erroneous.
Originally posted by bounder
So Religion and Science are at least as old as one another, and it is only recently that the two have been distinguished from one another. They exist in harmony for the most part.
To the suggestion that they exist in harmony, I suggest while they seeminlgy exist in harmony, but that is only because science has not yet bumped into everything espoused by religion. When it does, i.e. creation vs. evolution, there is much wailing and nashing of teeth, but scientific explanation ultimately wins out, i.e. the world is not flat and is not the center of the universe. Science endeavours to develop knowledge of and to explain that which we do not currently understand by impirical analysis. Religions, on the other hand, are universally supported by the hypothesis that humans are incapable of knowing some (many) things and thus must rely on faith to explain the as yet unexplainable.
So, if humans ever know everything, then there will be no need for religion and all humans will be God. Perhaps humans are Gods in training and it will take a bazillion years to learn everything. Then those that can graduate from God School can create their own universe and start the cycle all over again.
So, with that said, I have to go advance my knowledge of the BnZ fighting characteristics of the P-38 lightening! Baby steps, folks, baby steps!
:D
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For me, all knowlege comes from God. He gives us knowlege a little at a time for what we can handle. If you look at Science, it's always changing Sciencities are always learning news things. Remember, just a few hundred years ago the comman thought was that the earth was flat. We now know it's round. And that the Solar System, or Universe revolve around the earth. So we keep changing our threse as we come across new knowlege in science.
I don't think that God and Science are not odds with each other.
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Religion is a product of Mankind....has nothing to do with God.
Jesus himself warned that the religious(Pharisee's and Sadusee's...) were themselves the worst of mankind.
For most, you cannot understand something that you have no knowledge of....you seek to apply the physical to that which is spiritual. You have eye's yet cannot see and ears which do not hear. Pride and self are your God.
Be assured that at some point in your life, God will deal with you and at that time, you will make a choice. Perhaps you already have, or do not understand what I'm speaking of....still, that time will come and when it does, you'll know it.
God loves us all and his desire is to give life and life abundantly through fellowship with him. I have experienced this and know it to be true.
Now, I would be a liar if I left you thinking that I was better than any of you....the truth lies in the following....
"It is by Grace that we are saved, not by works, lest any man should boast."
Hard concept to swallow I admit....still the truth remains regardless of the opinion of mankind.
BTW MT....science is merely mankinds effort to define the undefinable.:)
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Originally posted by Rude
Religion is a product of Mankind....has nothing to do with God.
Jesus himself warned that the religious(Pharisee's and Sadusee's...) were themselves the worst of mankind.
For most, you cannot understand something that you have no knowledge of....you seek to apply the physical to that which is spiritual. You have eye's yet cannot see and ears which do not hear. Pride and self are your God.
Be assured that at some point in your life, God will deal with you and at that time, you will make a choice. Perhaps you already have, or do not understand what I'm speaking of....still, that time will come and when it does, you'll know it.
God loves us all and his desire is to give life and life abundantly through fellowship with him. I have experienced this and know it to be true.
Now, I would be a liar if I left you thinking that I was better than any of you....the truth lies in the following....
"It is by Grace that we are saved, not by works, lest any man should boast."
Hard concept to swallow I admit....still the truth remains regardless of the opinion of mankind.
BTW MT....science is merely mankinds effort to define the undefinable.:)
So, let me get this straight. Your belief in God and your statements about his attributes of love and his desires are not "religion"? Sorry sir, but I find that statement hypocritcal. I'll grant you that God is above religion: he/she/it is what he/she/it is and nothing humans spout can change that. But once you begin to attribute any quality to God, i.e. that he "deals with humans, you are defining religious belief, or, in other words, espousing a religion. I am happy that you have your God. He may even be the same as my God. Your God may even be THE GOD. I am sure you think he is. But, chances are, there are a few billion humans who don't share your view. Now, you say that human opinion is irrelevant. If that were true, why would God "deal" with humans.
And Rude, respectfully sir, I cannot agree with your theory that science is the effort to define that which is undefinable. That we cannot currenlty define something does not mean that it is undefineable, only that humans are currently lack the knowledge to define it, i.e. people used to think aerial flight was magic. We know it is not. Science is the effort to understand the parameters of our existence.
And a question about Grace. If it is solely by the Grace of God, and not our works that humans are saved, and it may well be, then how does one acquire the Grace of God, or how is the Grace of God distributed, if not by the works we perfom. Again, I sense hypocricy there. You see, I think that someone who does good all his or her life, has a better chance at salvation, or at obtaining the Grace of God, than does say, someone like Jeffrey Dahmer, or Adolph Hitler.
Geez, I'm regressing back to collegiate nights of wine infected mullings about the meaning of existence, etc etc. I better stop. It hurts! Sorry.
:cool:
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Religion is merely a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices. I suppose if you stand on that alone, you could lump all believers into this definition.
I suppose my belief is that Religion is the organized product of man, not God. A personal relationship with the living God is not a religion as man defines it.
As to science defined, I'll buy your take:)
Regarding grace and how to aquire it...it's a free gift from God for those who believe on his only son...his death and his resurrection.
If you truly want to know, then read Ephesians chapter 2.....the Bible defines it much more accurately than I can. To be honest, it is a hard concept for me to understand....still, by faith it is mine.
I don't pretend to be better than anyone.....I'm just sharing my personal beliefs with you guys....am I perfect...absolutely not. Will I mess up today before bedtime....yep. Does God love me more than you...most certainly not.
It's not about what we think or what makes sense to us....God is not here for us to define him. We are here to serve him....yes by works and sacrifice to one another. This life is not an easy one to follow. I personally was and am to some degree the most selfish, self serving jerk that ever walked God's green earth....however, when I accepted Jesus Christ as my savior and began to serve him rather than my flesh, then the promises of what some see as just a book began to manifest themselves in my life.
Ya see, the Bible is unlike other written works....the words do not just lie on the pages but are full of power....the power to change your life forever.
The Bible speaks of being born again....anyone who has known me before I was saved will attest to the fact that God changed my heart....I am not the same man as I was before. Just ask my wife:)
The truth remains....God loves us all and wants the fellowship with his creation he once had....only by his Son can we recieve the Father...not very palitable for most folks I agree....still, God defines truth in life, not men.
Sorry for preachin...MT's just a trouble maker:)
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Rude,
You might be surprised how much I agree with you.
Once again my point was all about religion vs. science, not your personal relationship with god or Jesus or whatever the power the you worship might be called.
Truth be told I have a little bit of envy for people that find that level of grace and happiness in their lives, and have nothing derogatory to say about that.
Now religion is a whole other kettle of wax balls. If an entity (religion) draws an imaginary line in the sand and says.."past this point is unknowable... don't bother", then I feel the need to throw down.
And when man endeavors to know beyond this imaginary point... and what he finds contradicts the religious doctrine, it is in the religion's best interest to squelch the knowledge gained. Because religious doctrine is not a learned thing, or a hypothesis to be tested, it is (according to the religion) as immutable as a (fill in really immutable thing here).
So religion by definition MUST resist the expansion of knowledge unless said religion is perfect. And since religions are the creation of men and not God they are decidedly imperfect. <----- dam thats freakin good logic!!
(ps. hey Eagler THPTHPTHPTHPTHP!)
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Right on!
:)
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Religion = bad. Basically it is a group claiming to have intimate knowledge of possibly a deity and his/her/its intentions. Through history it has been used to opress the masses.
Personal spiritualism/beliefs: probably good, depending on what they do for you.
I've become kinder to animals, if I see an earthworm on the pavement I generally move it to real earth. All thanks to skydiving - perhaps what goes around comes around. Perhaps not.
If I am wrong, at least it's a laugh that the critters I save might end up eating me :D.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Truth be told I have a little bit of envy for people that find that level of grace and happiness in their lives,
And that's the bottom line for all Religion-bashers.
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Originally posted by StSanta
if I see an earthworm on the pavement I generally move it to real earth.
Then you are just getting yuck on your fingers for nothing. Once an earthworm has been forced out of his hole he is doomed. Countrary to popular belief the worms dont just build a new hole or whatever. They have one hole, and they die when they are removed from it.
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Originally posted by StSanta
Religion = bad. Basically it is a group claiming to have intimate knowledge of possibly a deity and his/her/its intentions. Through history it has been used to opress the masses.
Not true, Buddhists don't even have a deity (Buddha is only a prophet, a man who reached enlightenment and has no further impact on the fate of those that follow the religion). In fact Buddhists are generally Atheists - those that aren't may subscribe to a second religion.
Syzygyone I'd be suprised to EVER find Buddhists pushing their religion. Its just not the nature of Buddhists or the way their religion works.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
And that's the bottom line for all Religion-bashers.
Please explain how this makes sense to you.
(did you bother to read my post, or were you just looking for a troll bait?)
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Originally posted by Vulcan
Not true, Buddhists don't even have a deity (Buddha is only a prophet, a man who reached enlightenment and has no further impact on the fate of those that follow the religion). In fact Buddhists are generally Atheists - those that aren't may subscribe to a second religion.
Syzygyone I'd be suprised to EVER find Buddhists pushing their religion. Its just not the nature of Buddhists or the way their religion works.
Depends on the variety of Buddhism. I practiced a lay version of Buddhism for 7 years and 90% of the practice was proselytization (sp?). There were meetings every night to introduce new people. I'm not saying it was right, but it was definitely pushing Buddhism.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Then you are just getting yuck on your fingers for nothing. Once an earthworm has been forced out of his hole he is doomed. Countrary to popular belief the worms dont just build a new hole or whatever. They have one hole, and they die when they are removed from it.
Atleast they won't be sauteed (need to through one of those gay squiggleys over one of those e s) on scorching hot pavement.
Maybe a nice fisherman will come along, pick it up, throw it on a hook and complete the circle of life.
-SW
EDIT: changed him to it, since worms have a lil' from column A and a lil' from column B.
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Originally posted by Arfann
Depends on the variety of Buddhism. I practiced a lay version of Buddhism for 7 years and 90% of the practice was proselytization (sp?). There were meetings every night to introduce new people. I'm not saying it was right, but it was definitely pushing Buddhism.
Well thats wierd, all the Buddhists I know don't do that. But they are all Asian (Chinese, Cambodian, Thai, Lao, Vietnamese). Where these Asian buddhists doing the pushing?
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I just gotta say it.
VULCAN HAS MUCH BETTER BAIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
BTW the creation he has displayed is certainly heavenly no matter HOW you think it was developed! :D :D
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Originally posted by Vulcan
Well thats wierd, all the Buddhists I know don't do that. But they are all Asian (Chinese, Cambodian, Thai, Lao, Vietnamese). Where these Asian buddhists doing the pushing?
The organization was headquartered in Japan. Mixture of Caucasian and Japanese in this country. They were even pushier about it in Japan than here.
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We as humans are incapable of understanding eachother, let alone understanding "God". Historically, organized religions out of fear have tried their best to quell the scientific upstarts who attempted to find out how our Universe works and how it was created. I find this somewhat amusing because I came to believe in the existance of a God through the pursuit of science.
I also don't believe that God is afraid we'll find out how "he" did it. In fact, I'm quite sure he's proud enough of the Universe to welcome any curiosity on how he pulled it off. As I sit looking through my telescope, I am continually in awe at the beauty and size of the Universe we live in. It is truly an amazing thing, and I certainly think God (whatever he might be) welcomes any appreciation of it.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Then you are just getting yuck on your fingers for nothing. Once an earthworm has been forced out of his hole he is doomed. Countrary to popular belief the worms dont just build a new hole or whatever. They have one hole, and they die when they are removed from it.
hortlund,
you're wrong and clearly have no idea what you are talking about , whatsoever..
(plus ça change huh?)
earthworms are very happy to be thrown back on a patch of earth, and if you've ever had the patience to watch, you'll see they very rapidly disappear into the earth, little chetae propelling them as fast as they will go.
as for the karma for skydivers issue - well, no it probably wont save you from a nasty fall, but God is good to those who are good to the weak and lowly I hear - and you don't get much weaker or lowlier than an earthworm.
And of course without the earthworms we'd all starve to death so saving them whenever possible is a good idea.
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idiot
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Originally posted by Hortlund
idiot
troller
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Originally posted by midnight Target
troller
Trollee!
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Originally posted by Syzygyone
Trollee!
Groupie
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Groupie
Groper!
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Grand Funk Railroad
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Originally posted by Syzygyone
Groper!
dam straight!
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Originally posted by Hortlund
idiot
rather that than a scientific ignoramus.
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These last few posts have really been so well written and well thought out.....
I have decided to join the priesthood...... Forget science!!!!
(http://jubal.westnet.com/hyperdiscordia/sacred_heart_of_elvis.small.gif)
The Church of Elvis calls......
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Originally posted by bounder
rather that than a scientific ignoramus.
Hey now! Hortlund can't help it - he is, by his own admission, unevolved. ;)
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Originally posted by midnight Target
These last few posts have really been so well written and well thought out.....
I have decided to join the priesthood...... Forget science!!!!
The Church of Elvis calls......
Considering this sequence:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by midnight Target
Groupie
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Groper!
then:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Syzygyone
Groper!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
dam straight!
Seems like you are all set fo the Catholic Church, eh?
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As a former altar boy, I can honestly say that I was always treated with respect by the priests... no matter how much i squirmed..
ewwwwwwwwwww!
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Originally posted by bounder
rather that than a scientific ignoramus.
And yet you manage to be both...
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Originally posted by midnight Target
troller
Hello mr Pot...call for you from mr Kettle on line 2.
You better shape up MT, because you have been fishing with really stinky bait lately.
Truth be told I have a little bit of envy for people that find that level of grace and happiness in their lives,
So...MT... you claim to be to retarded to understand what I meant when I said that that is the bottom line for all religion-bashers?
Fine, let me try to spell it out for you.
Jealousy.
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Ohhhhhhhh! Well now its clear. Forgive my befuddledness Oh Swedenheimer. I didn't realize that you were unable to differentiate between my admiration for people who have found Grace, and my disdain for religions.
You must be very bitter to see something negative in that post I wrote. Sad.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
You must be very bitter to see something negative in that post I wrote. Sad.
Lets read your posts in this thread and see if we find anything negative about religion shall we...
For the most part, I believe that religion has been the largest hindrance to the expansion of man's knowledge over recorded history.
Some have speculated that the burning of the Library of Alexandria (by the Christians) may have cost us thousands of years of stored knowledge.
(And MT...in your little crusade against Christians here, you should at least avoid making stuff up as you go. The library of Alexandria was gone in 20BC ...nice try trying to pin that on the Christians tard)
While there are instances of Religious men doing stellar work in the sciences, it wasn't their religion that urged them as much as their ability to think beyond their religion.
Maybe for the same reason we stuck with drugs and alcohol. It feels good.
In other words, sticking with something doesn't necessarily equate to it being good for you.
Now religion is a whole other kettle of wax balls. If an entity (religion) draws an imaginary line in the sand and says.."past this point is unknowable... don't bother", then I feel the need to throw down.
Yeah, I dont know how anyone could take that as "something negative"...
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(And MT...in your little crusade against Christians here, you should at least avoid making stuff up as you go. The library of Alexandria was gone in 20BC ...nice try trying to pin that on the Christians tard)
http://www.mediahistory.umn.edu/indextext/Alexandria.html
Early in the year A. D. 642, Alexandria surrendered to Amrou, the Islamic general leading the armies of Omar, Caliph of Baghdad. Long one of the most important cities of the ancient world and capital of Byzantine Egypt, Alexandria surrendered only after a long siege and attempts to rescue the city by the Byzantines. On the orders of Omar, Caliph of Baghdad, the entire collection of books (except for the works of Aristotle) stored at the Library of Alexandria were removed and used as fuel to heat water for the city's public baths.
This is not the first time the library was damaged or destroyed. Originally built to house the massive collection of books accumulated by the Ptolemaic rulers of Egypt, the library had been devastated by fire several times. During Julius Caesar's Alexandrian campaign in 47 B. C., Caesar set fire to ships in the port. The fire spread to the library, which was called the Museum at that time.
In A. D. 391, riots instigated by fanatical Christians damaged the collection heavily. During the years between disastrous events, the library collection had been gradually restored. In 641, the Caliph of Baghdad exhibited the same spirit of religious fanaticism in ordering Amrou to burn the books stored there. The loss of the library at Alexandria was a particularly grievous blow because the works of so many Roman scholars. literary geniuses, and historians were destroyed
Hey Steve....
your pee pee is still small.
And you still don't get it. It must be a language problem. I don't like religion. I Praise people who have found grace in their lives.. jealousy don't enter into it..... get a clue..... Tardling.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
I don't like religion. I Praise people who have found grace in their lives.. jealousy don't enter into it..... get a clue..... Tardling.
You dont like religion, but you praise people who have found grace in their lives..through religion?
Jealousy is there alright...its the same basic concept as communism really... "either we all get an equal amount, or no one gets anything" now whether you understand that or not is basically up to you and your daily struggle with your braincells.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Jealousy is there alright...its the same basic concept as communism really... "either we all get an equal amount, or no one gets anything" now whether you understand that or not is basically up to you and your daily struggle with your braincells.
Having just the one must reduce that struggle to a minimum huh Stevie?
Convenient how you ignored the fact that you were wrong.. Mr. History
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Let's get back to the really good, troller, trollee, groupie thingamagig. Must less anst that way!:rolleyes:
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Ok, maybe I missed the response somwhere, but the great library of Alexandria was NOT burned by Christians. The library burned in 47BC I'm pretty sure, and Rome was not Christian until Constantine came to power in Rome after the battle of the milvian bridge, which was in the early 4th century AD (350+years later). The library burned as a result of the conflict between troops loyal to Cleopatra's brother and Caesar's legions in Alexandria, and the library caught on fire by accident in the fighting. Sorry, no bible thumpers involved there, just a tragic accident that deprived the world of its greatest single collection of knowlegde ever.
Ok, sorry to hijack the thread, just had to clear that up; please go back to bashing each other :D
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Originally posted by Stang
Ok, maybe I missed the response somwhere, but the great library of Alexandria was NOT burned by Christians. The library burned in 47BC I'm pretty sure, and Rome was not Christian until Constantine came to power in Rome after the battle of the milvian bridge, which was in the early 4th century AD (350+years later).
So you're saying... no christians Before Christ?
Don't know if I buy that. :)
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Yeah, exactly :D
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Religion is for weak people....
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In A. D. 391, riots instigated by fanatical Christians damaged the collection heavily. During the years between disastrous events, the library collection had been gradually restored.
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LOL @ MT who doesnt seem to understand that his 'lil quote there doesnt really say anything to support his little crusade.
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I don't know why, but I will attempt once more to be rational in the face of the your juvenile attacks Horty.
I wrote:Some have speculated that the burning of the Library of Alexandria (by the Christians) may have cost us thousands of years of stored knowledge.
You Wrote:(And MT...in your little crusade against Christians here, you should at least avoid making stuff up as you go. The library of Alexandria was gone in 20BC ...nice try trying to pin that on the Christians tard)
Followed by my correction of your historical knowledge...(excerpted for convenience) During Julius Caesar's Alexandrian campaign in 47 B. C., Caesar set fire to ships in the port. The fire spread to the library, which was called the Museum at that time............In A. D. 391, riots instigated by fanatical Christians damaged the collection heavily. During the years between disastrous events, the library collection had been gradually restored........ Early in the year A. D. 642, Alexandria surrendered to Amrou, the Islamic general....... On the orders of Omar, Caliph of Baghdad, the entire collection of books (except for the works of Aristotle) stored at the Library of Alexandria were removed and used as fuel to heat water for the city's public baths.
So when you said the Library was GONE IN 20BC... you were..........WRONG!
Now what exactly is my crusade? And do you have anything constructive to add to the discussion?
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
So you're saying... no christians Before Christ?
Don't know if I buy that. :)
Everyone knows they were called Pre-Christians then!
Sheesh!:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Hortlund
LOL @ MT who doesnt seem to understand that his 'lil quote there doesnt really say anything to support his little crusade.
What I don't understand is that you have time to waste exchanging barbs with MT but you don't have time to respond to crucial Diplomacy Press. :(
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To be honest MT, I dont know if you are deliberately acting dumb do get out of the discussion or if this is how you truly are.
The Library of Alexandria burned to the ground sometime BC. After that, a new library was built. If something happened to that library, another one was built. Then another one, etc etc. Because there is a library in Alexandria right now. But THAT is not THE Library of Alexandria, because THE library of Alexandria burned to the ground before the year 0. Get it?
Now when ppl are talking about the prizeless knowledge that was lost when the Library of Alexandria was destroyed, they are talking about THE library of Alexandria. Undoubtedly, knowledge is always lost when librarys are destroyed...heck I bet even some knowledge was lost when the library of Sarajevo was destroyed in the Bosnian war.
But the reason your quote wont help in your crusade here is because
a) the real Library of Alexandria was destroyed hundreds of years before 391, and
b) Your quote doesnt really say anything other than that the (new) library was damaged during some riot, it doesnt really say what was damaged, how much was damaged, or whether those riots had the specific goal of destroying the library of Alexandria or whatever.
And no one can possibly have anything constructive to add to your crusade, since your crusade is nothing more than bitter ramblings by a tard. Sorry.
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God, Allah, Buddha(insert your diety of choice here) are all products of the mind....the imagination. It makes people feel better to believe in some higher being that loves them and takes care of them. If that makes you feel better, great. I have no problem with people who believe in a diety, as long as they don't use that belief to justify their oppression of a people whose beliefs differ, or those who don't have the faith.
Unfortunately, througout history, we(meaning the humans on this planet) have used their belief in a particular diety to justify imperialistic and/or oppressive behavior, and countless wars have been waged over religious differences.
As much as I would like to agree with my faithful friends, I believe that, unfortunately, there is no divine being, no diety, no God. So instead of relying on the power of God to works things out for us, I wish we would all start relying on the power of each other, as compassionate and thinking individuals, to solve the problems of today and tomorrow. "We're all in this together" seems to me a fitting phrase to describe our situation here on earth. There is no "God's plan" or "God's will". There is only "your plan" and "my plan" and "our will". Only by relying on the power of the people, and having faith in each other, can we continue to make this world a safer and more peaceful place for us all.
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Originally posted by banana
blabbity blah blah blah ......
No disrespect Wank, but you were sounding pretty touchy feely there so I just summarized the whole thread for ya', so's you could join me in telling Hortlund:
TO ANSWER HIS G#$^%#*AMN DIPLOMACY PRESS
THANKS!;)
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LOL Syz, Hortlund hasn't answered my Diplomacy press, either. :)
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Originally posted by banana
LOL Syz, Hortlund hasn't answered my Diplomacy press, either. :)
That tears it then. I'm gonna send him some bangers and fries but no Guiness!
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Originally posted by Hortlund
To be honest MT, I dont know if you are deliberately acting dumb do get out of the discussion or if this is how you truly are.
The Library of Alexandria burned to the ground sometime BC. After that, a new library was built. If something happened to that library, another one was built. Then another one, etc etc. Because there is a library in Alexandria right now. But THAT is not THE Library of Alexandria, because THE library of Alexandria burned to the ground before the year 0. Get it?
Now when ppl are talking about the prizeless knowledge that was lost when the Library of Alexandria was destroyed, they are talking about THE library of Alexandria. Undoubtedly, knowledge is always lost when librarys are destroyed...heck I bet even some knowledge was lost when the library of Sarajevo was destroyed in the Bosnian war.
But the reason your quote wont help in your crusade here is because
a) the real Library of Alexandria was destroyed hundreds of years before 391, and
b) Your quote doesnt really say anything other than that the (new) library was damaged during some riot, it doesnt really say what was damaged, how much was damaged, or whether those riots had the specific goal of destroying the library of Alexandria or whatever.
And no one can possibly have anything constructive to add to your crusade, since your crusade is nothing more than bitter ramblings by a tard. Sorry.
I may be accused of acting dumb, but that just means I can stop while you have to live with it constantly.
Now read this carefully and
The history of the library falls into five stages. From its founding in 306 B.C.E. to about 150 B.C.E., it was populated by a large band of scholars from all over the world who lived on generous stipends from the Ptolemaic rulers of Egypt. These scholars applied Aristotle’s scientific method to every conceivable area of investigation, from the humanities to the exact sciences. The second period, which lasted from 150 B.C.E. to 30 B.C.E.—a turbulent time, when the Mediterranean world was being swept by the tidal wave of Roman conquest—was characterized by a radical shift from Aristotelian empirical research to the idealism of Plato. A new interest in religion and metaphysics came about, in an attempt to understand the meaning and purpose of life.
From 30 B.C.E until about 150 C.E., the teachings of the Jewish philosopher Philo Judaeus and the rise of Christianity most influenced life at the library. And during the next (fourth) phase, which lasted until 350 C.E., religion became increasingly important in the cultural life of Alexandria, with many systems of belief competing for supremacy: Christianity, the Hellenistic Judaism of Philo Judaeus, the Paganism of Rome, Gnosticism, the Roman brand of Iranian Mithraism and the Hellenistic Neoplatonism of philosophers such as Plotinus, Porphyry (c. 234-305 C.E.) and Hypatia (355-415 C.E.). The fifth and final phase, which lasted until the Arab conquest in the seventh century, was dominated by Christian theology and philosophy.
I will accept your apology in writing.
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MT...sue your parents or your teacher or whatever...
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Originally posted by Hortlund
MT...sue your parents or your teacher or whatever...
HORT, YOU SWEDEN GUY YOU! PLEASE ANSWER YOUR PRESS OR I WILL HAVE TO SELL MY VOLVO!
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Originally posted by Hortlund
MT...sue your parents or your teacher or whatever...
Your right... logic means nothing. Why do I try?
Hortlund you ignorant slut! I have given you plenty of data to show that "the" Library existed after 20BC and that its eventual demise was due to religious upheaval (Both Christian and Moslem).
Yet you continue to toss out these piece of crap little name calling juvenile tardlike sissy pants numbnut idiotic fartfilled bag of gas replies that mean nothing. Your ignorance shocks me.
If you have anything to add such as an argument that religion enhanced mankinds knowledge or something along those lines please play on. Otherwise I will taunt you a second time.
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IMO organized religion is mostly a farce comprised of it's share of hypocrites trying to tell other people how to live their lives.
belief in god, good/bad, etc isn't always the same thing as religion
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Originally posted by Stang
The library burned in 47BC I'm pretty sure, and Rome was not Christian until Constantine came to power in Rome after the battle of the milvian bridge,
Certainly you know that there were nevertheless Christian Romans throughout the Roman empire history, and before Rome's official conversion?
The influence to become Christian came through Contantine, but Rome was still not Christian during Constantine's rule between 306 and 337 A.D.
The entire library was not burned down 48BC by Caesar, as can be evidenced in this link:
http://www.ehistory.com/world/articles/ArticleView.cfm?AID=9
So Hortlund is wrong, it didn't burn to the ground and get rebuilt, it was damaged and some material was lost.
Over the course of several hundred years, the library was eventually destroyed.
-SW
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Hortlund you ignorant slut!.... Your ignorance shocks me.
Tsk tsk, tsk Logic Police Alert
If you knew enough to call him ignorant in the first place, yout statement that his ignorance shocks you is a logical non-sequitur and shuold be thrown out with the cressant roll wrapper.
Now, on the other hand, if you are shocked by the magnitude of his ignorance, then that's a differenet story. But, you didn't say that. Erego, logically speaking, your most recent rant was unsupportable. But, this is Amurica and being fair mined and all, I respectfully offer you the opportunity to to rephrse to something like:
Hortlunds Ignorance = If Hortlund's brain were put on the edge of razor blade, it'd look like a pea rolling down four lane highway!
If you are going to troll MT, you should not be surprised if a scutfish jumps on the old hook, even though you were fishing for large mouth bass!
P.S. This post has nothing at all to do withHORTLUN NOT ANSWERING DIPLOMACY PRESS
Really, it doesn't! Really!
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LOL it seems pretty apparent that critical reading aint AKSW's strong side...
well that was to be expected...
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Originally posted by midnight Target
I have given you plenty of data to show that "the" Library existed after 20BC and that its eventual demise was due to religious upheaval (Both Christian and Moslem).
English cannot possibly be your first language MT, either that or you have the reading comprehension skills of a drunken cow.
I suggest reading through this thread one more time...this time perhaps with a childrens ABC-book close at hand.
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It appears reading comprehension isn't on your side Hortlund, sure would hate to be tried in your court.
"No, it WAS definitely destroyed in BC!"
While it is evidenced in the link I provided that in each of those eras in which it is cited to have been destroyed, there is no concrete evidence it was completely destroyed by any one of those 3.
From Julius Caesar, to the Christians, to the Muslims, there is no concrete evidence any one of those three completely destroyed it - only stories of each one completely destroying it.
The only way you can for certain say it was totally destroyed sometime BC is by ignoring the facts, you must suck as a judge if you do that.
-SW
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Let me know when you can get someone to read it and explain it to you stevie. Then maybe we can talk.
For anyone else interested the actual decline and loss of the contents of the Library seem to be a matter of debate among scholars...
1. The original "burning of the museum by Ceasar" reported by Plutarch may have some truth to it, but may not. Plutarch wasn't a fan of Ceasar by any means and while there are numerous documented histories of the fire in the harbor... only Plutarch mentions the loss of the museum.
2. The sacking and destruction of the Library in 391 was enhanced by Edward Gibbon's in "The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire" in the 18th century. This was more likely a loss of about 10% of the collected works and the conversion of the Library into a Christian temple.
3. The 3rd version places the blame on the Moslem Kalif who decided to destroy all books that contradict the Koran as Heresy and all that agree as superfluous. These "facts" were reported by Bishop Gregory Bar Hebraeus, "a Christian who spent a great deal of time writing about Moslem atrocities without much historical documentation."
Whats the point?
There was most certainly a collection of ancient works in a building in Alexandria after 47 BCE. The mosty likely reason for their disappearance is the overall rise in power of the various religious sects in Alexandria. Spiritualism won out over science and much was lost.
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MT, you are the Ayahtrolla of Aces High BB. :D
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As much as I would like to agree with my faithful friends, I believe that, unfortunately, there is no divine being, no diety, no God. So instead of relying on the power of God to works things out for us, I wish we would all start relying on the power of each other, as compassionate and thinking individuals, to solve the problems of today and tomorrow. "We're all in this together" seems to me a fitting phrase to describe our situation here on earth. There is no "God's plan" or "God's will". There is only "your plan" and "my plan" and "our will". Only by relying on the power of the people, and having faith in each other, can we continue to make this world a safer and more peaceful place for us all. - banana
Oh boy banana, God is gonna toss you in the hottest corner of hell for this kind of crazy talk. Or maybe God will be humming a tune in his kitchen while you sputter and sizzle nicely, like a fat, greazy chorizo in the RED HOT skillet God reserves for blasphemers :p
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Originally posted by Gunthr
MT, you are the Ayahtrolla of Aces High BB. :D
GAWD NO!
That's too close to saying he was right!
BUMPITY BUMP BUMPTY BUMP BUMP BUMP.
Here we go again!
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Muaahahahahahahahah!!!!!
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There was most certainly a collection of ancient works in a building in Alexandria after 47 BCE. The mosty likely reason for their disappearance is the overall rise in power of the various religious sects in Alexandria. Spiritualism won out over science and much was lost.
That much I definately agree w/ you on MT. And it is great to finally see someone using specific historical references paraphrasing from actual authors of first or second hand sources
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Originally posted by Vulcan
Well thats wierd, all the Buddhists I know don't do that. But they are all Asian (Chinese, Cambodian, Thai, Lao, Vietnamese). Where these Asian buddhists doing the pushing?
Vulcan you dumb butt, he's talking about Texas Buddahists. Geez!
curly
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Originally posted by AKcurly
Vulcan you dumb butt, he's talking about Texas Buddahists. Geez!
curly
Actually, the organization I mentioned has groups in Texas and most other states.
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i havent been good at links but i hope this one works. http://www.abetterhope.com/hope/sayings.html
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Originally posted by bigsky
i havent been good at links but i hope this one works. http://www.abetterhope.com/hope/sayings.html
Don't you be one of those who strike hands, of those who are collateral for debts. If you don't have means to pay, why should he take away your bed from under you?.
huh?
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Originally posted by midnight Target
huh?
NO, the appropriate response is
WTF? Over.
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You're right!
here's another ... WTF??!
When you sit to eat with a ruler, consider diligently what is before you; put a knife to your throat, if you are a man given to appetite.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
You're right!
here's another ... WTF??!
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When you sit to eat with a ruler, consider diligently what is before you; put a knife to your throat, if you are a man given to appetite.
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My head hurts!
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Originally posted by Syzygyone
My head hurts!
Is Solomon saying watch out for attorneys?
Don't move the ancient boundary stone. Don't encroach on the fields of the fatherless: for their Defender is strong. He will plead their case against you.
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Originally posted by Gunthr
Oh boy banana, God is gonna toss you in the hottest corner of hell for this kind of crazy talk. Or maybe God will be humming a tune in his kitchen while you sputter and sizzle nicely, like a fat, greazy chorizo in the RED HOT skillet God reserves for blasphemers :p
Yeah that reminds me... just what is it that burns anyway? Are spirits made of combustible molecules? Do they still have spirit nerve ending? Can a spirit feel pain? Are there still electromagnetic signals still travelling through a spirit nervous system?
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Originally posted by Boozer
Yeah that reminds me... just what is it that burns anyway? Are spirits made of combustible molecules? Do they still have spirit nerve ending? Can a spirit feel pain? Are there still electromagnetic signals still travelling through a spirit nervous system?
My head hurts so much!:(
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read a few books by the dalai lama...
they are fascinating.
he is a cool old dude in my opinion.
really makes you question your belief system and really makes you more aware of the suffering of others and how you can help to alleviate that suffering.
i dig the buddhists.
every bible pusher ive ever met is a hypocrit. they talk the talk (over and over and over and over again) but very rarely walk the walk.
its a fairy tale.
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Ok i havent read the entire thread im sorry but there is something which is REALLy intereesting with the current theories of just what our universe is made up of.
M-Theory.
It is a fairly new take on the very fabric of our universe (and al the other parallel ones!!)and basically it all boils down to every piece of matter is somehow connected. Almost like a force that is ever present all around us. The string theories are fascinating to read about and i have recently started reading 'The Elegant universe' by Brian Greene (ISBN 0-099-28992-X) and i have been totally engrossed by it. It makes you realise that we are taking too much for granted around us. We should be actively seeking knowledge about this sort of thng as it can actually change your whole outlook on the world around you.
What is fascinating is gravity. A immensely powerfull force holding entire solar systems together yet when you consider we can pick up a weight or jump around in it , it just didnt add up It acts on objects thousands upon thousands of miles from the source.It pulls all those asteroids for instance. A immensely powerfull force which seems to excert a tiny force on us. This is where things got amazing!
A female scientist (i'll edit in her name later Helen quinn?) was seeking ways to explain this phenomenon and she needed a way to explain where all that gravitational power was going. She suggested it could be somehow excerting most of its force into another dimension. It was a stroke of genious. It allowed a closer matching of the large scale universe model with the chaotic world of quantum physics .This and other theories led them on the latest path of theories, we could even be looking at the holy grail of theories: 'The theory of Everything'. Calculations led to more strange and fascinating discoveries or at least predictions.
to cut a long story short they came up with the M-theory which is uncanny in that it almost predicts a sort of MAGIC to our universe. A universe where almost anything is possible. So now we have a form of energy which permeates everything and is connected to EVERYTHING. from the smallest atom to the largest star.
An energy all around us, in us and for all we know we may even have some sort of basic instinct which is AWARE of it.
Could this be the 'God' we always seek? Could we be seeing the very face of this god? or is it just a form of 'matter' and theres no real 'life' to it? Why does a universe somehow develop a lifeform which now has the potential to understand its universe?. Design? random fluke? We need to answer it for our own sanity! :)
It doesnt matter if you're a scientist or a bishop it comes down to a belief. We can only go back as far as the 'Big Bang' and there you are faced with that age old question again. Did it all start from nothing? Or is this the very point at which 'God' created us all?
Science and religion could both be right. We may not have the right idea about what a 'god' really is.This energy could be what a 'god' actually is. Religious people will see it as a sign there is a god while scientists will name it 'M-energy' or something and carry on seeking knowledge of it.Its really all up to you to seek the truth and learn about all this.I hope you all find what you seek ;)
I cant remember the chapter or verse but the bible does say something about we should seek wisdom and understanding. seems its not a bad piece of advice ;)
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Hey there Hazed,
I read the "Elegant Universe" about two years ago. I wound up reading it a total of three times as I'm sure you will to.
Membrane theory, I believe, is onto something HUGE. The problem is we just don't have power sources and particle colliders strong enough to test many of the theories as yet. But we will :)
If you're interested, I have several other books that I can recommend that I'm sure you'll enjoy immensely.
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Originally posted by hazed-
What is fascinating is gravity. A immensely powerfull force holding entire solar systems together yet when you consider we can pick up a weight or jump around in it , it just didnt add up
Actually gravity is an incredibly weak force applied on an immense scale. If you can't add it up you shouldn't be writing books like this.
Maybe these 'scientists' should investigate the fart. If an astronaut farted in space (lets assume some sort of valve system was involved with his spacesuit) it would provide amazing levels of propulsion. Now when I fart on earth I get less than a inch off the chair. It just doesn't add up does it?
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Vulcan,
People couldn't add up the inability to exceed the speed of light not too many years ago. Some idiot named Albert Einstein decided to write a paper about it. Amazingly enough, this autistic fool cracked the secret and shook the foundations of science.
I'll bet he farted on occasion as well.
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Whats that got to do with a bunch on wannabe scientiests claiming gravity is some "immensely powerful force" and wondering why we can lift a brick. All I was pointing out was its obvious (to someone who understand even a little basic physics) they ain't got a clue.
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you don't actually lift the brick... you push the earth down.
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
you don't actually lift the brick... you push the earth down.
So what happens if some guy in China picks up a brick and the same time as me?
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The explanation is too complicated to go into here, suffice to say that Einsteinian relavistic gravitational feild warpage is involved.