Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: AKDejaVu on May 10, 2001, 08:42:00 PM
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(http://www.dbstaines.com/images/T15FvF-T16FvF-mid.GIF)
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NEXT (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Its hard to compare with tour 15 because it was a different map. Here is a tour 14 comparison:
(http://www.dbstaines.com/images/T14FvF-T16FvF-mid.GIF)
AKDejaVu
[This message has been edited by AKDejaVu (edited 05-10-2001).]
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Also notice that the total difference in kills is excluding the the number from the F4u-1C colum.
AKDejaVu
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Basically these numbers are showing that the number of kills in the arena scored by the unperked chog are not all being scored by the other plane types. Interesting. People are now finding it harder to get kills maybe? Having to learn ACM? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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"That was some of the best flying I've seen yet, right up until the point where you got killed."
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or the chog Nazi's just cancelled their accounts and left
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Disgusting.
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or the chog Nazi's just cancelled their accounts and left
I find it ironic that you associate "Nazi" with the people flying the F4u-1C when its many of the people that were complaining about them who's behavior was more deserving of that label.
AKDejaVu
[This message has been edited by AKDejaVu (edited 05-10-2001).]
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
I find it ironic that you associate "Nazi" with the people flying the F4u-1C when its many of the people that were complaining about them who's behavior was more deserving of that label.
AKDejaVu
[This message has been edited by AKDejaVu (edited 05-10-2001).]
Thats a facinating statment. In what way?
Not that I aggree with citabrias inaccurate and misguided statment. But I think yours is as inaccurate.
Interesting thread though. Did enyone predict the net result would be fewer kills by nearly the margin of Chog use? I dont think so. Is the sortie rate down? It would be somewhat anyway as a death to someone triggers a new sortie. So more deaths equates to more sorties maybe. Has any thing become particularly more survivable with the decrease in chogs?
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Seems we really need to know if total playing time is about equal too. Doubt we'll ever have that proprietary info.
When you compare anything tour to tour it would be helpful wouldn't it?
If for example if total player time in 14 was 50,000 hours but was only 25,000 hours in 15 that would skew the stats too.
Just an observation. I have no suggestions or solutions.
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Originally posted by Toad:
When you compare anything tour to tour it would be helpful wouldn't it?
If for example if total player time in 14 was 50,000 hours but was only 25,000 hours in 15 that would skew the stats too.
A straight comparison of % of kills per tour would probably be more accurate. It would account for variation in number of sorties, player base etc.
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Looks like c-hog dominance was heavily influenced by the Island Map and the more strategic use of CVs maybe.
BgMAW
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I have switched from the CHog to the 109F-4!
eskimo
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Not to comment the results, I find them quite self-explanatory. Just a big <S> and tell my appreciation to somebody who makes a good hard work for all of us.
You can agree or not, you can draw conclusions or not, but the work si here for us to enjoy.
Thks AKDejaVu.
Pepe
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hehe Eskimo, 109f4 rocks (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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G'bye beloved C-Hog.... Hello dawlin' Niki.
Better plane anyways...
enjoy.
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Oh great... now we have two planes instead of 1 that double the kills of the next plane down... i guess that is diversity? Seems double the kills is still double the kills no matter what plane.
Plus... nash in a nik.... now that's comforting.
So.... let's perk the top three planes and even things up? After that we can see what needs perked next tour. Or maybe... we should perk until the 202 is used in an equal amount to the other planes?
lazs
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One point that has yet to touched on is that the C hog could get more kills per sortie than than the nearest competitor,and it could kill anything, GV or aircraft with relative easy using it's guns alone.This is something the George will never be able to do since it's cannons are useless against tanks and the Osty,The George is a better ftr but not a better all round killer so I doubt u will see the kinds of numbers the C hog was generating from the George or the Spit 9.
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[This message has been edited by brady (edited 05-11-2001).]
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Deja, could you break down the percentage of flights those top two killers have? After all, if the Spit or N1K rise above 20%, then they should be perked, since the reasoning for the Chog perking was just that. Thks.
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Oh, Brady, come to the TA sometime, I will show you that a N1K or a SPit can kill a GV just fine.
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Dammit Eskimo and Soullyss....keep it quiet about the 109-F4!!!
You're gonna get all the dweebs flyin' it and the ENY value is gonna drop and then I will have to find a new plane to rebuild my perkies with. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
****ANNOUNCEMENT**** ATTENTION ALL MA FLYERS!!!
Stay away from the 109-F4...it sucks...Eskimo and Soulyss are on crack and know not what they speak of. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Originally posted by brady:
One point that has yet to touched on is that the C hog could get more kills per sortie than than the nearest competitor,and it could kill anything, GV or aircraft with relative easy using it's guns alone.This is something the George will never be able to do since it's cannons are useless against tanks and the Osty,The George is a better ftr but not a better all round killer so I doubt u will see the kinds of numbers the C hog was generating from the George or the Spit 9.
What the hell are you doing up this early? And aren't you suppose to be at work?
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Looks like the perking of the F4U-1C has had roughly the effect that was predicted by those who advocated its perking. I did note the surprising effect of fewer F4U-1D missions being flown. I wonder what is causing that?
Ripsnort,
Using the numbers in AKDejaVu's charts we find the following information:
N1K2-J has 14.7% of the kills.
Spitfire MkIX has 12.8% of the kills.
Neither aircraft is close to breaking 20 percent of the kills.
Further I noted that no aircraft has twice, or more than twice, the kills of the aircraft listed below it.
I think its kind of refreshing to have a non-American aircraft being the most popular, and a Japanese one at that. True, it was easily predictable based on bast tours.
The projected kill total could be for several reasons. The ones I think possible are:
1)Some players have quit, or reduced their playing time, due to the perking of the F4U-1C.
2)Players that were using the F4U-1C are still adjusting to other aircraft and thus not at normal efficiency.
3)AH v1.06 is getting stale and players are playing less. This is something that we have seen each time a version has gotten to be a couple of months old.
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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother
Bring the Mosquito FB.MkVI Series 2 to Aces High!!!
Sisu
-Karnak
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Originally posted by Karnak:
Looks like the perking of the F4U-1C has had roughly the effect that was predicted by those who advocated its perking.
Not to me, looks more like what I predicted... they'll just move onto the next aircraft that's percieved as the top dog.. or dogs.
Here we have a perfect example of that: More SpitIX and N1K2 usage.
I said it all along, perking the F4U-1C will just place more planes with percieved advantages in the air.
SpitIX and N1K2... remove those and I'll betcha either the P51, 109G10 or La7 would recieve more attention.
It's a viscious cycle, and will only end when we're all flying the same plane... kinda boring if you ask me. I liked the challenge of F4U-1Cs flying about... but whatever.
-SW
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SW,
I suggest you look at the stats again.
You were predicting that they'd all move to the next top fighter, the N1K2.
I agreed that the N1K2 would probably gain the most(it didn't), but I also said that substantial numbers would also be added to numerous other aircraft.
In order of gain:
Typhoon MkIb: 1827
P-51D: 1638
N1K2-J: 1409
Spitfire MkIX: 829
C.205: 569
P-47D-30: 282
Fw190F-8: 244
Bf109G-10: 170
Tempest MkV: 103
I am surprised that the F4U-1D and P-38L did not gain, but many others did.
Contrary to your claim they did not all simply move to the next aircraft.
If we use Tour 14 it is more lopsided, but still far from a unanimous movement:
N1K2-J: 2007
F6F-5: 745
C.205: 425
Typhoon MkIb: 365
Spitfire MkIX: 264
Yak-9U: 237
Bf109F-4: 148
A6M5b: 39
Projected Total: 4230
Projected Total, Less N1K2-J: 2223
Slightly less than 50% went to the N1K2-J using Tour 14 as our base. I would still consider this a major success. The Spitfire MkIX is 5th on this list, hardly representative of all of the movement going to the top two fighters.
You can call the results whatever you want, but I hardly think this shows what you say it does.
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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother
Bring the Mosquito FB.MkVI Series 2 to Aces High!!!
Sisu
-Karnak
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Originally posted by Karnak:
SW,
I suggest you look at the stats again.
I did, I wasn't looking at the projected kill stats or the difference between the two tours in order of usage... because that is projected. We are 11 days into this tour, you can't project anything based on this. It's a rough guesstimate at best.
When the end of the tour comes around, we'll see where it stands then.
But as of right now, the SpitIX and N1K2 are seeing the most usage. Followed by 1000kills is the P51D.
-SW
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Here's what the numbers don't show: the hue and cry moved immediately to a new aircraft to persecute.
Now if you truly are happy the 1C was perked soley because of the numbers, then you are right, the stats back you up. If you are one of the elitists doing victory jigs because a threat to your (collective "You") "superior ACM" has been eliminated, hang on, the ride's just beginning.
In the old days I might just have been on this bandwagon, but it seems so pathetic now. Some of the finest pilots in the game soiled their pants over the 1C issue, and a mid-range nothing like myself never had any trouble with them. Let's be pragmatic; while not everyone who was against the 1C have gloated, and there are many valid reasons to perk it, many have picked the torch right up and moved on to the next plane. It will also be interesting to watch them side-step and defend their rides of choice- of course there is nothing overmodeled in those aircraft.
[This message has been edited by Kieran (edited 05-11-2001).]
[This message has been edited by Kieran (edited 05-11-2001).]
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I agree with Kieran 100%.
-SW
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I think it had the desired effect, at least right now. I see fewer C-Hogs and the ones I do see aren't playing stupid and performing suicide dives anymore. I'm not surprised the D-Hog didn't pick up that many converts, only true Hog pilots would most likely convert over. The others would look for the next best plane (at least in their minds the N1K) or something with 4 hispanos (Typhoon).
Overall though, it's refreshing in the MA these days. <S> HTC.
-Soda
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You'll see quite a spike in F4U-1Ds when we go back to the Island terrain.
I see the posted stats as TOTAL AND COMPLETE VINDICATION of all of us who advocated perking the CHog. Contrary to the frankly silly argument made that ALL the lost CHog sorties would go to the Niki and thus the Niki would have to be perked, they ended up being spread among a wide variety of aircraft. Now, no one aircraft even remotely APPROACHES the % of arena kills the CHog did.
I've always found it incomprehensible that so many people have whined about the Niki being a super-UFO; in fact, prior to the perking of the CHog, it became trendy for people to claim the CHog sucked and that what they REALLY were afraid of was Nikis. (despite the fact the CHog K/D was ALWAYS far better than the Niki, and the Niki's K/D has ALWAYS been mediocre.)
Yet, with only slightly fewer total kills, the Spit IX has a BETTER K/D ratio than the supposed UFO Niki!
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Originally posted by Kieran:
Here's what the numbers don't show: the hue and cry moved immediately to a new aircraft to persecute.
[/b]
What hue and cry? I see hardly any calls to perk anything, now, on the board or in the MA (admittedly, haven't flown all that much recently.)
The only talk of perking I ever see is the usual people unhappy with the CHog perking tossing out further perking as straw-man arguments.
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Originally posted by Torgo:
I've always found it incomprehensible that so many people have whined about the Niki being a super-UFO; in fact, prior to the perking of the CHog, it became trendy for people to claim the CHog sucked and that what they REALLY were afraid of was Nikis. (despite the fact the CHog K/D was ALWAYS far better than the Niki, and the Niki's K/D has ALWAYS been mediocre.)
Now this statement here begs me to ask you, WHAT do you think is the ultimate total air warfare weapon?
Powerful guns, lots of ammunition, ability to carry high explosives, and speed.
F4U-1C had all of that. Which in turn lends itself to be the ULTIMATE ground pounder (note: not ultimate A2A weapon).
I'll bet dollar to donuts that atleast half the F4U-1C's kills came from the fact it was used for base suppression/vulching.
No one would use a N1K2 in the role the F4U-1C was used, thus it's kill/death will not be disproportionate.
So yes, you are correct... the N1K2 will never see the kills and kill/death percentage of the F4U-1C.
If the Typhoon had larger ammo loads, yeah you'd see that one replace the F4U-1C in total kills.
-SW
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SW,
I don't recall myself, or anybody else, suggesting that perking the F4U-1C would magically reduce the numbers of the N1K2 and Spitfire MkIX. The N1K2 and Spitfire MkIX were the 2nd and 3rd most popular fighters before the F4U-1C was perked, of course they are going to be the 1st and 2nd most popular after the F4U-1C has been perked.
The fact is that the lead aircraft no longer has more than twice as many kills as the 2nd aircraft and the 2nd aircraft continues to have fewer than twice the kills of the 3rd aircraft. In fact no aircraft now has twice the kills of the aircraft below it, well, maybe the C-47A. There are still two clear leaders, but they lead my a much smaller margin.
Like Torgo, I have not noticed any "hue and cry" to perk the just N1K2 and Spitfire MkIX, other than from those who are outraged at the perking of the F4U-1C. It seems to me that those people are trying to take the thing to a ridicules extreme to prove some point that only they believe. If anything is taken to its extreme it becomes ridicules.
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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother
Bring the Mosquito FB.MkVI Series 2 to Aces High!!!
Sisu
-Karnak
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My problem with the Chog was the way it was used as an anti tank vulching dweeb platform.
The N1K cannot do that.
Us LW's have to take eggs to kill panzers and flaks, and we ain't got any rockets, and we can only take few eggs (50kgs are not effective panzer/ostie killers, a kill for me is the exception rather than the rule).
For this reason alone, I think HTC made a VERY good decision about the F4UC.
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Von Santa
Staffelkapitän 9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"If you return from a mission with a victory, but without your Rottenflieger, you have lost your battle."
- D. Hrabak, JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://stsantas.tripod.com/stsanta.jpg)
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Originally posted by Karnak:
If anything is taken to its extreme it becomes ridicules.
Kinda like the "perk the chog" stuff I would presume.
It was always something with them. I never flew 'em and I hated them to the extreme... you would never catch me in one.
But damn were they fun to blow outta the sky.
But as I said before, we are only 11 days into the tour.. a lot could change.
-SW
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When the A5 was used more than the CHog, people were complaining about the CHog's high K/D ratio saying it didn't matter how many kills it had.
When the Chog K/D ratio went down and usage went up, people said it didn't matter that the A-5 had a higher K/D ratio... it was the high usage that mattered.
BTW.. is anyone else noticing one painfully obvious thing?... there are going to be fewer kills this tour period. That means pilots are flying less (or fewer pilots are flying). There really isn't much that indicates any real transition to another plane has occured. It just seems as if some people have stopped flying.
AKDejaVu
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Torgo-
Fly the Nikki in the arena. See what happens when you kill people. You will hear some of the elitists and the wannabes call you names for being in it.
The point isn't what is perked or what isn't. The point is that there are planes in the arena that are available, but not really available. New people that come to the game are coerced to flying what the elite call "real-men" planes, hopefully (to the elite) rendering some planes defacto unusable.
There exists a movement to address the Nikki, some of it justified IMHO, but some of it just ridiculous.
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Dejavu, I posted some time ago the stats for that tour (the one when teh A5 got more kill than the Chog). The most used plane was the Spit, the second teh A5 and the third the Chog, but only 50 kills behind the A5. That was one of the most balanced TODs I remember, BTW.
Oh, and BTW we werent yelling "perk anything" at that moment for the simple reason that at that time the Perk system was NOT implemented (And IF I recall correctly, it was NOT a public issue yet). We were saying "fix the turbolasers", not "perk teh chog".
On the current thread issue, the N1K2 and Spit IX are where they were last tours, having between 1.5-2 times the kills the P51D has. So, it is EXACTLY the same situation as last tours.
As the pro-perk crowd said, the numbers of ex-chog kills are pretty evenly distributed now. NO massive migration. NO massive presence of N1K2s in teh MA, and NO yell to perk it (regardless that many many people who were against the perking of the Chog are NOW insising that we are saying "perk it" now, we aren't).
In short. We were right. true, the numbers are from a 11 day time and to extract conclusions may be precipitation, but this trend has been IDENTICAL since day one of this tour. In other words, since day one this trend is the one ruling.
I bet that when the tour ends the same ones who are now yelling that this stats should not be credited with so much attention becuause this is data from 11 days of this tour, say that "it is only one tour, wait another"
They will do WHATEVER before admitting they were wrong.
Because, of course, they can't be...they have seen this same story so many many times before.... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Originally posted by R4M:
Oh, and BTW we werent yelling "perk anything" at that moment for the simple reason that at that time the Perk system was NOT implemented (And IF I recall correctly, it was NOT a public issue yet). We were saying "fix the turbolasers", not "perk teh chog".
Yeah you're right..........
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You said "REMOVE THE Golly-geeN CHOG" or something to that effect.
Selective memory... or something.
-SW
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I'll help you remember, since your memory seems to be broken RAM... http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/003252.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/003252.html) http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/005916.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/005916.html)
And here's the ultimate in roadkill threads about perking... Trying to hit every nail on the head until you found the right one that people could agree with: http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/005571.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/005571.html)
-SW
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SW said:
Kinda like the "perk the chog" stuff I would presume.
It was always something with them. I never flew 'em and I hated them to the extreme... you would never catch me in one.
But damn were they fun to blow outta the sky.
But as I said before, we are only 11 days into the tour.. a lot could change.
-SW
SW - I agree, we are too early into the tour to start making projections. Anything could change.
AkDejaVu - how are you estimating the change? Based on a 11 day survey of the current data? I mean, I love the data, but I question it's integrity for this tour. You may be just be putting salt on a sore wound. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
I'm curious, what were you hoping to accomplish by posting the results?
Vruth
(http://www.telusplanet.net/public/brandor/images/412.gif)
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In its post perked chog incantation the perk the niki campaign is a pure fabrication of the ministry of chog preservation. The posts calling for a perk of anything else are almost all negative comments made to create the impression that people are crying to perk the spit and or niki. On the BBs that is not the case. In the MA I cant say but on this bbs the ruckus about perking anything is with a few exceptions all being generated by people that want the chog unperked. Almost all are acompanied by pompous "I told you so" statements.
There are fewer kills probably because the big killing machine is alot rarer. Reach for whatever argument you like that supports your position. But 25% or the people flying AC that are much less deadly will generate lots of wounded but landable planes. The simple expediant of putting the cannon battery of the chog on the P51 would quickly replace all those lost kills.
Those nasty elitists....LOL
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Ripsnort said:
"Oh, Brady, come to the TA sometime, I will show you that a N1K or a SPit can kill a GV just fine."
I do not dispute the fact that they can Rip I know they can, they just cant kill as much in a single sortie, the cannons on the spitt are the same as on the C hog so they can do the same thing, just not as much since the C hog carries more ammo/ordance.The George can kill GV's with bombs or those tin can's the US called halftracks no sweat, but the type 99 MK II has a piss pore anti armor effect aganst tanks, so hear agin it is not a doo it all plane like the C hog, u also half to get in about 400 yards to consistently hit aircraft do to the poorer range effects of the Type 99 MK II compared to the hispano, which is good out to 1200yard's at least in my experience.
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[This message has been edited by brady (edited 05-11-2001).]
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Didn't say I wanted the C-Hawg unperked, said I am disturbed by the trend it represents and the jigs of the victorious.
Fly the Nikki in the arena. See what happens when you kill people. You will hear some of the elitists and the wannabes call you names for being in it.
Are you saying this is untrue?
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AkDejaVu - how are you estimating the change? Based on a 11 day survey of the current data? I mean, I love the data, but I question it's integrity for this tour. You may be just be putting salt on a sore wound.
I'm curious, what were you hoping to accomplish by posting the results?
Just posting data. Its all Fighter vs Fighter results since most of the complaints were stemming from fighter encounters (too much e.. turbo-laser HO attempts... etc).
One thing I did want to show was that the average usage for most aircraft is going down... despite the fact that fewer people are flying the Chog. What are they flying or are the simply not flying as much?
AKDejaVu
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"Has any thing become particularly more survivable with the decrease in chogs?"
Me.
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Tjay,
I also notice that F4U-1Cs have become more survivable.
The general trend of less usage could also be because AH v1.06 is getting stale. Its not like it isn't something we've never seen before. It happens with every version after a couple of months.
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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother
Bring the Mosquito FB.MkVI Series 2 to Aces High!!!
Sisu
-Karnak
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Less kills does not automatically mean less people flying or less flying time. It may indicate that e.g. Chog pilots are now more careful in their approaches... instead of instant HOs they take more time to attack their targets. I hope this would be the case, but seriously I doubt it. For many pilots their own virtual lives are worth nothing.
In any case sortie amounts and flight time would be the correct indicators for judging wether there are less pilots and less flying time compared to last tour.
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BlauKreuz
Lentolaivue 34 (http://www.muodos.fi/LLv34/)
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Here is a simple truth; If I outgun you and I am in a less maneuverable a/c than you, I will take any shot you give me. If that is a front-aspect or even HO, I will take it. Perk or no perk that is how it is if you are in a furball situation and you have to fight your way out. Had a guy upset with me because I turned into him and gave his Zero the business end of my 190A5 big gun loadout- we were on the deck, I was slow and facing both him and a Lightning. No way to run, no way to outturn them (one more turn and they both had me). Best thing to do was to thin the odds some. He went on for 10 minutes about how dweeby I was. All I could say to him was, "in the same situation I would do the same thing again"- and I would.
8 perk points on the C-Hawg isn't worth crying about for the mediocre pilot, and I think that has little to do with why people aren't flying it, or even the way they fly it.