Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: JimBear on May 11, 2001, 08:03:00 AM
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Been offline for the past month or so recharging and checking out that big shiny thing in the sky. Well when I went in last night the Knights looked sorta in a hole (again) and decided to take the rust off by flying Buff intercepts with my squaddies to try and keep our HQ and remaining bases safe from the terror flyers (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) What do I see, not singletons at 35k but Pairs at 20k and one time even a 3 ship formation at 19k making runs. BEAUTIFUL!! Not only does that look great, but it makes that ol fighter puke immersion factor go way up.
Lord I missed AH, and hope this wasnt a one night deal, cause I cant keep away and that kind of night is a reason. Once again <S> to all of the Bomber Pilots that I met (shot down and shot down by)
LB-HAM!!
JimBear
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Buffs are on the average 25K or so, but the 30K variety are by no means scarce.
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Yes,
<S> to the buff drivers at any alt!
eskimo
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No.9 Squadron RAF fly our buffs at their historical alts, that means our favoured ride the Lancaster does not go above 24k and usually fly at operational alt of 22k, B17's fly at 28k max as was their normal operational alt. Why am I telling you this? well I'm fed up of bombers getting constantly bashed, I wonder why I still play AH when the arcade gamers shout and get what they want, why did I bother starting a bomber squad?? At this point I feel pretty dispondant about my future in AH and while in the grand scheme of things it won't matter a jot if I left today but I know other buff squads will also pack up and leave unless this arcade mentality stops, it happened in Warbirds and now its happening again in Aces High.
Just wanted you to know there are some buff squads out there that want to do it the right way and not game the game (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) <S>
(http://www.no9squadron.com/No9Squadron.jpg)
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Revvin
No.9 Squadron RAF (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/revvin/Index.htm)
[This message has been edited by Revvin (edited 05-11-2001).]
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<S> to you Revvin.
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Yes, I never shot Sunchasr above 20K (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
<waves at Sunchasr> .. hehehe (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
<S!>
Saw
[Mass]
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Originally posted by Saintaw:
Yes, I never shot Sunchasr above 20K (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
<waves at Sunchasr> .. hehehe (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
<S!>
Saw
[Mass]
HEHEH very true hes the best buff stick i know <S> sunchasr ...... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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DRILL
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Revvin, I by no means leveled an assault at you or any other buff driver in particular. JimBear made a comment about stratobuffs being noticebly absent in his return, I commented that there are still players who go that high. There are guys that are ok with it, more power to them. I also have the right to say I am tired of chasing nose-bleed alt buffs that fly thoughout the 5-sector area dropping FH's. That doesn't mean I expect you or anyone else to stop it.
Unfortunately I can't just ignore them, as there will be no bases to fly from in short order. In short, you (buff fans) can make me play your game whether I want to or not. You can't make me like it no matter how many names you apply to the way I feel about it.
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My reply was not aimed at you or your response but at threads and replies by the same people (a small number) over and over again. I don't like to see stratto buffs either and will not accept applications from pilots that do. In our forum I have set out kind of 'unffocial rules' that No.9 fly by. We fly at historically accurate altitudes and egress from target properly and don't use quick turn manouvres to get the norden back over target quickly. No.9 Squadron was setup to perhaps redress the balance of the guys in the game that want to give bomber pilots a bad name by gaming the game and I posted my original reply so you guys know there are some squads out there that want to do things properly so we don't all get painted with that same broad brush that is so often applied to bombers wether its Aces High or Warbirds.
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Revvin
No.9 Squadron RAF (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/revvin/Index.htm)
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Well Jimbear, I was not there last night but since Degas, Kranan, vils and some others have returned or opened accounts bombing has become more interesting.
But Revvin has pretty much stated my present feelings regarding bombers in AH.
I never did the start a squad with webpage and all the trimmings but awhile back there were 8 Mad Bombers subscribed, now there are 3, skipper is still Knight and vils has just returned.
The rest lost interest.
Most of the guys into bombing with me are just hanging out till one of the other 2 options present themselves.
If one or both of them work as anticipated there will be several missing AH accounts.
This is not in any way an AH bash, this is a very stable airplane game but some of us want a bit more WWII sim involved.
The only thing even close are the events many work so hard on but these are too few due to the time it takes to set them up and often have appeal to a certain element and not all.
Thanks Saw and DRILL and dammit DRILL you and that lousy N1K1 really tore me up the other day, my chute got burned and if not for that really fat Knight sheep I woulda splatted.
WTF do you feed them, Bishops?
Be advised though, I have broken the 20K altitude barrier and, at least on this map, the recognized ceilings are just about where I can be found.
That would be around 25-28 in a B17, unless I am done wrecking your stuff, then I will climb till it won't.
In a B26 19.6 is max for me and if you find me in a Lanc at any altitude, just shoot me, I am way too screwed up to be loose.
Barring a miracle,like one of the anticipated sims works as well or better than Aces High for the same or less money, I will be around awhile longer....bombing furballers hangers and hearing the howls on this BB is worth the 30 bucks for now.
I do agree JimBear, SALUTE to ALL the Bomber Dudes.
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When did they put this thing in here and WTF is it for?
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Thanks Revvin. I really do mean that.
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I personally don't see a problem with buffs at 30k....when i'm in a fighter i try to get every advantage possible (alt, speed, E)
why should buff jocks not be aloud to get every advantage they can get??
and don't even talk about the buff guns being to powerfull....Ask my CO midnight about the 4 b-17's and 5 lancs we ran into last sunday night....one of our 51's was downed, but all the buffs were killed
(btw that was 2 seperate flights of buffs)
and to all you buff pilots out there <S>. don't worry about the guys whining about your altitude, keep on climbing i like the challenge (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
<edit> just use your brains when going up against buff guns</edit>
(http://www.telusplanet.net/public/brandor/images/412.gif)
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Pugg666 XO
Braunco Mustangs
[This message has been edited by pugg666 (edited 05-11-2001).]
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I understand the super hi alt buff problem and as unrealistic as it is there is a reason that makes the ability to do so valid to a certain degree.
As a bomber squad or anyone who has freinds that will join them on a buff run, a close formation sencible alt run is both enjoyable and feels right, i have had many a run like this and its great to do things by the book as they were.
But AH has to cater for every occation and not everyone has the time or resorses to make a acurate bomb run. If a base needs a lanc or b17 and its at a quiert time in the arena, there are not enough players to make large buff runs so solo runs are more common. fly on your own at 20k or less and your pretty much cannon fodder for any solo fighter that knows his stuff. I know i play at both time buzy and quiert and when you fly solo at these times you get shot down far more that you make it, and ushally by a lone gun.
You can say its the level of pilots skill, but a 109 comming in fast and at the right angle and a good lock on is not so easy to fight or dodge.
personally i dont often fly much higher that 15k becasue i cant be assed with the time it takes to gain alt lol, but i can understand why at certain times for lone bombers, high alt its the only was to stay alive long enought to make it, unfortunatly its open to abuse. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Guys, you don't have to justify to anyone the way you fly. As the game pretty much allows it you can't call it cheating per se. It is one of the areas of the game I have never been happy about and haven't found much the past week or so of chasing bombers to make me like it any more, but hey, I am just a player with an opinion.
My reason for not liking them is simple- a one hour flight gives me about enough time to climb to 25K maybe 2-3 times looking for the inevitable buffs that are sweeping large sections of our country. The smart ones run and climb when they see you, waiting for the gas to expire. A few will soldier on through. This gives me the opportunity to actually shoot at maybe five planes an hour, the rest of the time spent climbing and milling aimlessly around staring at the dar. This might be pulse-pounding fun for some, and at times it is ok, but it is all that is happening in Knightland right now. I don't happen to want this to be the only type of flying I do day-in and day-out. And, as I have already mentioned, ignoring them means they kill all the fighter hangars over several bases along the front. Now I can sit in the tower and watch the action!
I don't want to buff. I do occasionally to help the cause, but I don't really care for it. Neither do I GV or skipper. I want to fly fighters, pure and simple.
All that said, I am not asking HTC or anyone to change a thing. I have merely stated a preference and a reason for it.
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I've placed numerous posts in the past pointing out the unrealistic accuracy of bombers in AH, and the corresponding lack of damage to runways (a more typical target for a level bomber than individual hangars and acks).
The overwhelming response was that these features were needed to allow bombers to be effective in the "Game Environment".
As a result we have more of a "Game Environment" than most bomber enthusiast would really like. That leaves us with pilots willing to fly as high as it takes to be effective, and not many active bomber pilots as there used to be.
Bombing can be a lot of fun, but not the unrealistic picking off of individual acks, deadly accurate Norden, flying at unrealistic altitudes, and having no crater effects on runways etc. These types of features also take away from the importance of Jabo attacks.
Basically, we have a system designed to fit the game. That system was chosen on purpose. It's not a bug, it's a choice. Some of us would prefer something a little bit more realistic, knowing that full realism is, of course, out of the question. Others prefer the more basic "game effects" programmed into the the sim.
I've given up trying to convince the majority, and powers to be, that a more realistic system is better. Presenting ones point of view becomes a whining complaint if it continues against the tide for an extended period of time. I still believe the more realistic changes would do wonders for Aces High, but I will accept the fact that the majority wishes otherwise.
As a result, like Revvin, I will gain enjoyment and satisfaction flying as realistic as possible. I do keep my eye on other flight sims from time to time to see if I might enjoy them more, but always hoping that Aces High will make some bombing changes. I see no need to label others who disagree as something less than acceptable. After all, they are doing nothing more than using all of the tools offered to them by the sim.
Ranger Bob
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"Presenting ones point of view becomes a whining complaint if it continues against the tide for an extended period of time."
I raise my glass to any man intelligent enough to realise this and considerate enough not to do it.#
It should be carved in stone at the entrance to every AH arena.
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It's Strat Players vs. Furballers, redux (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Without exception, every bomber pilot I know in AH is a Strat Player. We're fortunate enough to have a number of Strat-minded fighter pilots in our group (<S>, guyz!).
Buffs and buff pilots are appreciated by Strat Players, and disliked by Furballers.
Aces High is a game, and games have Objectives, for any player that participates. The foremost objective is to have fun.
Lazs and many others have fun by getting the most amount of kills in the shortest amount of time flying fighters in furballs.
Sunchasr and many others have fun by participating in well-planned and executed operations designed to take enemy bases and eventually win the reset.
There is room in Aces High for both of the above objectives. Sometimes, when we see a large number of our countrymen fighting and dying around a particular base, we make the mistake of thinking that their objective is to TAKE that base. So, we bend every effort to flatten it, in order to assist in that objective.
It is extremely frustrating for Strat Players to play in the same arena as Furballers. The reverse is also true. But Aces High gameplay allows for both. As long as I am a paying subscriber, I will continue to be a Strat Player. I will also refrain from knowingly interfering with the gameplay of Furballers.
To each his own. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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degas... I think there is room for both. Under my retoric is the theme that rangerbob espouses but... I want realistic damage, FM, and gunnery in a sim and don't give a whit about strat. as u say, I want to fite and kill. I get enough "strat" and boredom out of work.
gunnery to me also means bomb dispertion and damage means.... damage including blast radius. Realisticly.... damage wise... bombers didn't close fields. They kept peoples heads down and kept everyone up nights...when they do close otherwise undamagged fields to fighters only in AH it is gamey and embarassing. And, distinctly, unfun. If, they had realistic targets like huge cities and huge ports and they would have to allmost devestate the landscape at fields to close em... everyone would be part of the sim and not some be in a sim and some be in a game.
If you can tell who is "furballing" and who is strat then.... something is wrong with the setup.
lazs
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Amen, Degas. Well said and to the point, as always (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
A big <S> to Sunchasr, Degas, Defiance, Kranan, et al who make AH a BLAST to play as a strat player. I consider it an honour to have flown with such great people. The fact that they are the grumpiest @#$^#$% curmudgeons(especially after they've been into the cider)only adds to the immersion factor for me (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Having only been here a month, I won't purport to know everything(yet), but i will say that every buff mission that i have been a part of has been at very reasonable (read: sporting) altitude; indeed, a mission without cons IMO is a bore (esp. for the escorts!)
And yes, i have also enjoyed the pure, immediate thrill of the furball, and will again(for about 30 seconds each @#$% time).
But to the Furballers I say: If you don't like us over your base, SHOOT US DOWN. If you don't your party WILL be moved. As long as the objective of this game is land aquisition, strat players will try for the reset, and the more mature players will try to do so in a fair manner. It is pretty funny to talk about realism in bombing strategy when your contribution is to circle an ememy airfield with no intention of taking it, and wait for fresh meat to spawn.
But, as Degas said, to each his own (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Last Sunday (6th May) the 412th came across 2 seperate formations of bombers.
1st was a 4 ship B17 group flying a close box at 15k. Our 4 Mustangs were able to break up and shoot down 3 of the B17s with only 1 of out A/C lost.
2nd was a 4 ship LANC group flying a close box at 20k with 2 190 escorts. Our 4 Mustangs broke up the escorts and then assisted in downing all 4 LANCs with no losses to our A/C.
I think the bombers were the same group of guys each time. I have parts of both events on film and will check it ot.
Anyway, WTG bombers guys. It made for a fun time during our 3rd offical squad night. <SALUTE>
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Wing up, Get kills, Be happy!
Midnight CO
(http://www.telusplanet.net/public/brandor/images/412.gif)
The 412th is actively seeking P-51 Mustang pilots. E-mail me for more information davidlj@charter.net
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I recently escorted a couple of buffs on quit a long trip, flying a Spit. There were no gunners available, so they had to make do with a solitary escort. We approached the target at 15k, just below a cloud layer. I made a quick circle as they went to bomb run, and came out just behind them.
While I was reporting in from my orbit I began tumbling into a dive, but not before I saw the b17 infront of me burst into flames and go down.
A single LA7 (or N1K - I remember not, never saw him) took down all 3 of us.
Fair enough, he caught me by surprise, but those two B17s never opened up a round because, sans gunners, and with the pilots being occupied with - well - flying, they never even saw him coming.
Needless to say we flew back at higher altitude.
I'm sorry if you fighters find it hard to deal with the fact that bombers don't (and never did) fly along at your preferred cruising altitude of 6-8k. and that we expect to have guns other than at the front of our aircraft, but - we're not fighters.
K
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<S> to one of the best buff jocks I know kfs! Long time no see m8 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
A week or so ago I made a light hearted challenge to Wilbuz to come and have a pop at my Lancaster knowing I really did'nt stand much chance. I took off in the training arena and to surprise him and give me a little edge dropped my ord then dropped to skip across the waves so he would'nt exploit my lack of a belly gunner. I dived to the deck and minus my payload and a minimal fuel load Wilbuz found it hard to catch me but when he did he sliced me in half in very short time making fast slashing attacks and I don't think I got one round on him! Kinda dispells this myth of uber buffs flying around with impunity while they spoil the fun for everyone else.
There are many things that can be done that would not only make bombing more realistic and make it fun for both fighters and bombers but while the players with the arcade mentality shout loud and long in these forums without listening to the viewpoints of the buff jocks here that want to fly properly then it will only lead to this sim turning into a game and there are three competing sims willing to take on subscribers who want more than just an arcade game.
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Revvin
No.9 Squadron RAF (http://www.no9squadron.com)
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Lazs: I would really like to play the game you describe, with more targets for bombers, realistic bomb dispersion and blast radius, damage models, etc. If you ever find that game, lemme know (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) B17 FFII was supposed to do this, but those lame-prettythanges shipped their game without multi-player.
As it is, the gameplay in Aces High revolves a great deal around the mechanics of online gaming. In order for people to enjoy the experience of Aces High, bandwidth issues have to be addressed.
In any online game, the number of packets required to be passed between client and server is the bottleneck which prevents more "involved" gameplay. Anything you do in Aces High requires your client to pass packets to the server, and the server to pass packets back. Also, anything you SEE on your screen that is happening real-time in the game requires the same thing.
Therefore, I don't think we will see the changes you mentioned happening (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) Larger cities/targets means more objects in the game, and particularly when within view of players. Bomb dispersion and realistic blast radius mean more calculations between client and server. Crater/runway damage (aka terrain deformation) is another big bandwidth eater.
Unfortunately, I live in the country. Which means I'm limited to dial-up at 31,200 bps. I think many are in the same boat, vis-a-vis connection speed. I am already killed quite regularly by fighters who are 3K + range from me, and suddenly warp out of my gunsight to the sound of furious pings and my plane disintegrating around me.
I just don't see how Hi tech and the rest can get around this. I've been lag-killed in every online game there is. You learn to live with it, or you don't play online, lol.
So, I'll continue to enjoy flying Aces High the way it is.
Niblitz: Nice post, fellow mullet (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) We'll just keep flying at 10K so we can get to the target and get shot down faster! ooo-rah!
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degas.. perhaps, but... I don't see any problem with more dispertion and more blast radius for bombs and more realistic (harder) field closure of the fighter element. More blast radius would also make for a tiny bit of realism where there is none now so far as bombing ground vehicles.
nimb.. shoot you down? No thank you. you may have noticed that a lot of guys lose all sense of immersion and interest when attacking single manned, 10 guns slaved to one, bombers. It is like a shot of cold water in the face after a good fite with other fiters for some of us. and you want us to climb up to those buffs and game an unrealistic attack at an unrealistic target so that.... they can't do unrealistic damage to, of all things, airfields? It is so much less fun than fighting other fighters and so much less realistic that the only time I attack a bomber is if I am bored beyond all comprehension.
One element is a combat flight sim and one element is a simplistic board game. We need to make both more sim like.
lazs
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I'll jump into this thread and provide an illustration that being able to die and jump back into an aircraft can make you stoopid.
The other day I saw an enemy B17 toddling along low so I thought I'd dive in at him in my P51 from my perch at 20K. Woops, gained too much speed, gotta level out to slow down...now where'd he go? There he is, now dive! Ripping along I quickly close in on the B17 and in an exchange of gunfire, dissentegrate from his guns. Oh well, I was low fuel and RTB'ing anyway. I'll up in another aircraft...I hear the FW with gondola guns is good for anti-buffs, I'll fly my first Focke Wulfe mission. Well, I find the B17 and "blam!" He gets me again. Okay, he has to be soft, I'll try this FW again. I take off and search him out but these FW's with gondolas do not climb so well and the 17 is light and he's hard to catch. I find him and every time I try to get into position for a safer shot he'll turn into me...a couple times, it almost looks like he's turning head on to me to chase me! After about three passes, I bore in less carefully and "blam!" The B17 gets me again! Luckily no one else is around to see this, but man...three strikes and I'm out and it's time to power down the computer and take to heart the lesson I learned. Let others take on Buffs.
-Puke