Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Dnil on July 12, 2003, 11:15:32 AM
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cambridgeshire/3061391.stm
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Just got back from the airshow. Unfortunatly Mj and I witnessed the crash firsthand. I noticed the plane off in the distance as it was falling straight down from a high alt and pointed it out to him (it wasn't center stage at the time). We noticed the plane wobbling and the pilot was trying to slowly pull out of the dive, but it was too late, he crashed belly down from what we could see over the trees. It was awful. Not sure I want to fly again anytime soon. The people sitting behind us had dinner with the pilot and a couple others last night. Apparently this guy's wife had to be tranquilized before flying anywhere herself because she hated it so much.
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I think sometimes many of us dont realize the dangers these men face when flying such old and rare aircraft for OUR 'entertainment'
to them,and the crew of the CAF He111 that was lost the other day,a big salute from me,their families are in my thoughts.
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Very unfortunate, watching the video it seemed the nose dropped during a roll and he went vertical. He managed to roll upright but too late, you could see the wings wobble as the Firefly got too slow and ran out of E, mushed straight into the ground. Tragic really. He hit a low hill, if it wasn't there he might have got away with it. You could probably duplicate the accident on AH and see how difficult it is to pull out when that happens
Don't give up on flying yet Athena, airshow flying is quite different to most other flying. I was at an airshow with a fatal crash. Two things linger in the memory. The dull crump as it hit the ground and then the silence.
It never put me off. It's all part of the game. I've lost friends to flying and six aircraft I had flown crashed later.
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Saw it firsthand too, but in not as much detail because, like athena says it was backstage at that point.
I caught a glimpse of it, right way up, but I knew he'd ran out of altitude. A plane on the ground then obscured my view and I just hoped it would come out the other side. Then I saw the dust cloud. There was no fire, and no noticeable sound, so I was really hoping they would get out of it alive. It was sickening really. As I saw it heading for the ground my stomach just dropped away.
It kind of took the glint off an otherwise superb day. 9 spits in the air, not a cloud in the sky and even a Yak-3 and La-9 flying.
I hope relatives of the people who died weren't watching. That would be horrific. Very sad.
PS. I hope you and mjolnir had a good day otherwise - we (my brother swoopy, my dad and I) were considering the gold pass tent but swoopy couldn't afford it. Maybe next year.
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Cant belive it was nice plane too:(, thoughts with families an all, heres it in all its glory this morning.
Other than the incident was a fantastic day, 9 spits in the air all at one had be in aw, pics will be posted soon in screenshots.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_60_1058038840.jpg)
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Not again :(
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I saw the crash on SKY News. I just hope that's the last of the crashes.... My thoughts go to the families of the pilot/crew.
Sky also showed a P38 crashing back in 1996. Jeez, it was a complete fireball, I'm just please that it was nothing like that. Seeing that made me feel really ill.
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Godspeed to her crew. :(
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if you fly them they will crash.
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This sucks :( I'm so sorry for the 2 guys.
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:( Too many crashes this year, I hope this is the last.
Gatso
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One of the people killed was =rix== from Warbirds brother. http://agw.warbirdsiii.com/bbs/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22371
:(
Cougar
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I went today (sunday) and it was a superb airshow with 25 warbirds flying in a single formation. Truelly a sight to see.
However i was a little concerned by the fact many aircraft actually flew over the top of the far end of the crowd (near the old hanger).It was great to see the underside of a hurricane and spitfire and a p51 directly overhead but it seemed a little irresponsible after this crash on saturday.
I was also quite suprised by some of the stunts being done. Yes the spitfire 14 was great but do we really need to see it performing loops? I really had a hard think about this and i have to say i came to the conclusion that no, I didnt need to see loops and stalls etc. I wanted to see one fly by me and to hear those lovely engines. I was really worried for the B17 they flew as that even performed a few rather sharp turns which seemed totally unecessary. Why do they risk these (sometimes SOLE examples) old planes in such a way?
If we had 2 B17s in this country flying them by all means risk it a little for crowd excitement but please not when its the last one flying!. The recent loss of the sole flying example of a he-111 is a tragic loss of a peice of history.
btw I DO love to watch the stunts but I think its selfish to demand these planes perform such stressfull maneuvers.Why not treat them with kid gloves and just fly-by? surely the risk of a loss is far less that way.
If its owned by a private individual and its not the last example of its type then Im fine with whatever they do but when they crash and for the REST OF TIME no one will ever see one again I think its a crime to risk them. really!
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I don't really agree Hazed.
If they just flew the planes staright and level, the initial "Wooow" would be gone fairly quick. I'm a real life pilot, so maybe I have a different view. I judge the airplanes at an airshow by "what they can do". I recall Sun&Burn 2 years ago. The Corsair stuned me. The guy was doing loops, split S and wide barrel rools over the runway at low speed and altitude. THAT really demonstrated what this plane could do, and really made me wonder "what a Zeke could do".
Airshows are display, it "destroys" misconceptions. I always immagined Lancasters or B17s as fat slow dogs. In Florida, the B17 pilot got a bit fancy and made stuff that I would not have imagined. Next time I meet a WW2 vet that tells me he did a hammer head in a B17, I may actually believe him hehehe:D
Or like the F86 at Chino. It's a jet, ok but how fast is a jet? Chino this year, the speed was restricted to 300 kts or mph (don't remeber). Ok, you see a jet flying by level making noise. I recall a Mig15 at Titusville, the guy came in full bore and shooted straight up above the crowd till he was only a lil dot up there. Well, THAT gave me an idea of what "jet power" was, and how it could have been such a change for WW2 prop pilots.
Plus ... if I own a P47, it could be the last flyable, but when I fly this sucker once a year, you bet I want to have fun hihihi:D
Hazed, you must be (no offense) one of those who have tears in their eyes at "Monterey Classic Racing" (I think it's Monterey) where all those rare antique race cars go at it on a track every year! Sure it brakes my heart when the guy crashes his "only 3 made Ferrari special 1966" into a "$800K Jaguar XXJ00-01", but it'
s quite a sight to relive history and compare the perfs.
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Frenchy, I know where you are coming from but I tend to support Hazed.
I mean no disrespect to any pilots who have died or been injured flying warbirds when I say this - Stop crashing them before they are banned from the skys.
I am happy for a straight and level pass at an airshow of ANY warbird. I don't need to see the performance envelope displayed. These aircraft represent the peak of development of a particular class of aircraft and I want my son to be able to go to an airshow in 30 years time and see a piston engined WWII vintage aircraft flying.
The "safety concious" mentality that has become the norm these days will dictate that piston engined warbirds will be banned from flying before long if a new approach to display flying is not found soon.
palef
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Originally posted by Cougar68
One of the people killed was =rix== from Warbirds brother. http://agw.warbirdsiii.com/bbs/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22371
:(
Cougar
:(
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I think to suggest that these planes are being in anyway flown irresponsibly, outside a safe envelope of operation is a massive disservice to the crews that maintain them, the pilots who fly them and those who work hard to find the money to put them in the air.
And what about the insurance companies that cover these near priceless aircraft? Do you think they'd provide cover if the danger was unreasonable? What about the aviation authorities in Britain? Arguably the most restrictive in the world, they are happy to let these planes display in the manner they do.
Watching the Breitling fighters (F4U, Spit, P51, F6F) do a close formation loop on saturday after watching the Firefly crash firsthand only an hour before did give me butterflies, I'll admit. But the sheer professionalism and skill they displayed made me realise, if I wasn't aware of it before, that these guys are the real deal. They take their jobs ultra seriously - they are not on a jolly, flying for the hell of it. I'm sure they are also aware that what they do is risky and potentially catastrophic, but do everything to minimise the risk to themselves, the aircraft and most importantly, the viewing public.
Personally, there is nothing better in the world than watching (and hearing) a flight of nine spits come barrelling in at full throttle at low level before pulling into some breath-taking manoever. The day such a sight ends will be a sad day indeed.
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Dowding, I'm sorry you took it that way. Read my post again.
"I don't need to see the performance envelope displayed."
I enjoy Airshows too. I went to Farnborough in '98 and had a ball - however some killjoy politician will stop these aircraft flying if pilots keep dying. If a solitary warbird crashes on a school it will be all over forever.
I mean no disrespect to the engineers or pilots and their skill and professionalism is without doubt.
Old machines, even those made of metal sometimes fail for no obvious reason. Metal fatigue is a strange beast.
palef
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What Dowding said.
There's more Spitfires flying today than 20 years ago. The 'I want to go to an airshow in 30 years and see them flying' thing is frankly balls. Do you think there is really that little planning in putting on one of these shows that you think that you'd get a warbird flying into a school! :rolleyes:
Spitfires are perfectly capable of doing aerobatics, as was the Firefly, as were the 3 other aircraft that have crashed killing people I knew.
It's not going to stop me restoring them, it's not going to stop me wanting to fly them.
Gatso
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As soon as it is too expensive to insure these aircraft they will not be allowed to fly. If they keep crashing and killing people, "public outcry" which is a useful political catch phrase used to justify ridiculous decisions by politicians, will ground them permanently.
I want to see them flying in 30 years - I want to you to keep restoring them Gatso - but I don't want excuses handed to politicians to ground them - and that is much more likely to happen if people keep dying.
Aircraft crash, it's a fact of life. But the supply of "original" WWII era warbirds is not infinite. Neither is the patience of "safety" minded politicians. Safety is a useful vote grabbing platform in any country.
There is nothing better than seeing these aircraft used how they are supposed to be. They evoke all sorts of emotions for all sorts of reasons and are having an increasing impact on the commercial sphere of aviation in general.
Highly public accidents at heavily patronised events have a negative impact on the perception of the safety of these events. The negative impact on aviation in general may be negligible, but someone at a large aerospace company will start distancing themselves from Warbirds due to image concerns.
I think a "she'll be right" attitude is not constructive in the long view in regard to this issue and the manner in which these airaft are displayed needs to change or everyone will miss out entirely. How does that benefit anyone?
You make a valid pioint about more Warbirds flying now than there were 20 years ago - however more aircraft and the potential for more accidents could easily equate to an "all WWII Warbirds are dangerous and must be banned" attitude. The people that make laws about these sorts of things are the same people who are adamant that speed kills and speed cameras and heavy policing (and the attendant taxation gains through fines) will fix it rather than improved driver education or skill.
Prove me wrong - I don't want to be right, but always expect the worst of lawmakers. Their goal is votes at the next election, they don't care about your passion or hobby. This may be heresy to some, but I am sure that many people can't see the difference between a statically displayed Warbird and a flying Warbird. Some of those people make laws to "keep the general public safe".
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These planes are taken apart every year then put back together again. If they werent suitible to fly then they wouldnt get a certificate.
And i dont think there is ever gonna be a 'public outcry' to ground em cause its the public that want to see em, the amount of people that turned up this weekend proves that.
gatso u get some pics of em flying, what to see those spits again. :)
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palef - my post wasn't meant as a slam, just a frank statement of opinion. I actually agree with much of what you say and fully understand how certain politicians will want more restrictive measures.
But I don't think that will happen provided spectator safety is maintained at the high standard it is in this country. I also don't think any change is needed on the back of this latest tragedy.
Finally, in Britain there will come a point when government interference will no longer be suffered. This particular issue is the watershed for me.
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Originally posted by Dowding
Watching the Breitling fighters (F4U, Spit, P51, F6F) do a close formation loop on saturday after watching the Firefly crash firsthand only an hour before did give me butterflies, I'll admit.
Gave my wife the willies too, especially since they were almost right over the crowd when they went vertical. But I am going to correct you Dowding, the lead plane of the formation wasn't an F6F, it was a P-40. Damned impressive display by those guys, it was a shame they had to go when they did, I'm betting the audience would have enjoyed it more later that afternoon.
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I couldn't remember what the 4th plane of the 4 was so I guessed at F6F. :)
Should have remembered it was a P-40 - I remember mentioning it to my dad during the display. And yes, it was an excellent display considering the mix of planes.
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Cheers Dowding - I'm glad we got onto the right wavelength. :)
Swoopy - the "public outcry" I am talking about seldom exists. It's an invented excuse by politicians for banning cool stuff like two-stroke motorcycles, and Concorde. It only takes a small group of outraged loudmouths with connections to ruin this sort of stuff.
I'm sorry if I upset anyone as it certainly wasn't my intention.
palef
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Originally posted by palef
I am talking about seldom exists. It's an invented excuse by politicians for banning cool stuff like two-stroke motorcycles, and Concorde.
palef
non of thiose in UK :)
and Dowdings a fool
:D
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When did they ban two strokes?
(http://image1ex.villagephotos.com/extern/640697.jpg)
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They haven't.
Gatso
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didn't they die doing what they loved to do?
will we be so lucky or will we have our family standing round the bedside watching the clock, tapping their feet, waiting for the old geezer in the bed to finally draw his last breath ...................
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Originally posted by Eagler
didn't they die doing what they loved to do?
will we be so lucky or will we have our family standing round the bedside watching the clock, tapping their feet, waiting for the old geezer in the bed to finally draw his last breath ...................
Patty Wagstaff, the airshow performer, was clipping a ribbon suspended over the runway while flying inverted. There was a bobble and the bi-plane touched down and skidded, sparks flying, down the runway. As Patty crawled out of the wreck, a reporter ran up with camera and microphone.
The reporter asked, "What were you thinking as you skidded down the runway upside down?"
Patty answered, "I envisioned a blankety blank reporter on TV saying 'at least she died doing what she loved.' That's not what this is all about!"