Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Animal on July 12, 2003, 06:32:28 PM
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I figure this will make a great discusison seeing as the demographics in this forum is heavy with bigots.
From CNN.com (http://www.cnn.com) :
OXFORD, England -- I had my DNA examined by a prominent genetic specialist here, and what do you know! It turns out I'm African-American.
The mitochondria in my cells show that I'm descended from a matriarch who lived in Africa, possibly in present-day Ethiopia or Kenya.
O.K., this was 70,000 years ago, and she seems to be a common ancestor of all Asians as well as all Caucasians. Still, these kinds of DNA analyses illuminate the raging scientific debate about whether there is anything real to the notion of race.
"There's no genetic basis for any kind of rigid ethnic or racial classification at all," said Bryan Sykes, the Oxford geneticist and author of "The Seven Daughters of Eve." "I'm always asked is there Greek DNA or an Italian gene, but, of course, there isn't. . . . We're very closely related."
Likewise, The New England Journal of Medicine once editorialized bluntly that "race is biologically meaningless."
Take me. Dr. Sykes looked at a sequence of my mitochondrial DNA to place me on a kind of global family tree. It would have been nice to learn that my ancestors hailed from a village on Loch Ness, but ancestry can almost never be pegged that precisely, and I appear to be a mongrel. One of my variants, for example, is scattered among people in Finland, Poland, Armenia, the Netherlands, Scotland, Israel, Germany and Norway.
On the other hand, is race really "biologically meaningless"? Bigotry has been so destructive that it's tempting to dismiss race and ethnicity as artificial, but there are genuine differences among population groups.
Jews are more likely to carry mutations for Tay-Sachs, Africans for sickle cell anemia. It's hard to argue that ethnicity is an empty concept when one gene mutation for an iron storage disease, hemochromatosis, affects fewer than 1 percent of Armenians but 8 percent of Norwegians.
"There is great value in racial/ ethnic self-categorizations" for medicine, protested an article last year by a Stanford geneticist, Neil Risch, in Genome Biology. It warned against "ignoring our differences, even if with the best of intentions."
DNA does tend to differ, very slightly, with race. Profilers thought a recent serial killer in Louisiana was white until a DNA sample indicated he was probably black. (A black man has been arrested in the case.) As genetic science advances, the police may eventually be able to recover semen and put out an A.P.B. for a tall white rapist with red curly hair, blue eyes and perhaps a Scottish surname.
On the other hand, genetic markers associated with Africans can turn up in people who look entirely white. Indians and Pakistanis may have dark skin, but genetic markers show that they are Caucasians.
Another complication is that African-Americans are, on average, about 17 percent white: they have mitochondria (maternally inherited) that are African, but they often have European Y chromosomes. In other words, white men raped or seduced their maternal ancestors.
Among Jews, there are common genetic markers, including some found in about half the Jewish men named Cohen. But this isn't exactly a Jewish gene: the same marker is also found in Arabs.
"Genetics research is now about to end our long misadventure with the idea of race," Steve Olson writes in his new book, "Mapping Human History."
When I lived in Japan in the 1990's, my son Gregory had a play date with a classmate I hadn't met. I asked Gregory, then 5, whether the boy's mother was Japanese.
"I don't know," Gregory replied.
"Well," I asked sharply, "did she look Japanese or American?" Although he'd lived in Tokyo for years, Gregory replied blankly, "What does a Japanese person look like?"
He was ahead of his time. Genetics increasingly shows that racial and ethnic distinctions are real — but often fuzzy and greatly exaggerated. Genetics will increasingly show that most humans are mongrels, and it will make a mockery of racism.
"There are meaningful distinctions among groups that may have implications for disease susceptibility," said Harry Ostrer, a genetics expert at the New York University School of Medicine. "The right-wing version of this is `The Bell Curve,' and that's pseudoscience — that's not real. But there can be a middle ground between left-wing political correctness and right-wing meanness."
I'll be searching for that middle ground this year as I'm celebrating Kwanzaa.
* * *
Genetic Bazaar
Anyone can get a DNA analysis to try to shed light on genetic origins, but for now don't expect to be pegged too precisely. Bryan Sykes of Oxford University founded a company that offers analyses based on the rubric in his book "The Seven Daughters of Eve," and more information is available at http://www.Oxfordancestors.com. That's the company I used. An alternative is an American company offering DNA analyses with a genealogy focus, http://www.familytreedna.com.
Here is the original link for the article:
http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/07/11/nyt.kristof/index.html
Let's get it on.
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This just in... we're all black.
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Originally posted by Animal
I figure this will make a great discusison seeing as the demographics in this forum is heavy with bigots.
No Animal, we just don't like you :p
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
This just in... we're all black.
Duh.
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(http://clan-zzq.org/~kampf/images/images%20folder/megarolleyes.gif)
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you all look the same to me, puny humans! :eek:
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"Life could not start in a refrigerator..had to be an incubator"
- Jimmy Cliff
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Originally posted by Animal
Among Jews, there are common genetic markers, including some found in about half the Jewish men named Cohen. But this isn't exactly a Jewish gene: the same marker is also found in Arabs.
So... according to the bible, Jews are the chosen people of god... now if these same people are muslim, were does that lead?
:D
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When do I get my restitution for slavery?
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Originally posted by Sgt. Hartman
There is no racial bigotry here! I do not look down on n*****s, kikes, wops or greasers. Here you are all equally worthless!
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Originally posted by Animal
I figure this will make a great discusison seeing as the demographics in this forum is heavy with bigots.
Blah blah blah. Shyaddup Sambo, and get back under Fatty's desk.
SOB
PS...If we're all black, does that mean I can check the "African-American" box on my financial aid forms?
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Well we know what side Bert is on...
(http://www.imtek.de/mstpinn/fun/kkk.jpg)
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Sure there is "race" the genetic differences are of course minor and irrelevant but the visible physical traits are pretty obvious due to the enviromental pressures we adapted to over our migration from Africa - for example the asian eyelid or that eskimos are short and have heavy fat distibution all over their bodies where africans in especially hot regions are tall and slim with fat depoits in localized areas... I see no problem admiting that obvious fact and its perfectly harmless unless you begin to tie in some cultural or social meaning to it - which is a whole another matter.
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now that i'm black , maybe i can get my govt grant?
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Funny thing is I was just watching the Clayton Bigsby piece on Chappelle's Show.
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This I object to:
Another complication is that African-Americans are, on average, about 17 percent white: they have mitochondria (maternally inherited) that are African, but they often have European Y chromosomes. In other words, white men raped or seduced their maternal ancestors.
Note the automatic assumption, 'raped or seduced'. No allowance for any other possibility like normal love and relationships. Typical PC crap.
The irony about stuff like this is that we don't need to be told any of this. Everyone knows we are all the same under the skin. That won't stop the racists and the bigots.
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Originally posted by funkedup
Funny thing is I was just watching the Clayton Bigsby piece on Chappelle's Show.
The first time I saw that peice I almost fell over.
Id repeat some of the great lines, but Im sure someone would go complain to Skuzzy and call me a bigot.
So much for humor. :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
So... according to the bible, Jews are the chosen people of god... now if these same people are muslim, were does that lead?
:D
Jews and Arabs originally hail from the same family tree. Both Muslim and Jewish doctrines believe that they are descendants of Abraham (who was neither Muslim or Jewish because neither existed yet). He was born in modern day Iraq in the Tigris Euphrates valley. Two of Abraham's sons, Isaac and Ishmael, are considered to be the beginning of each blood line. Each son had a different mother. Isaac's mother was Sarah, Ishmael's mother was Hagar. Ishmael and Hagar were thrown out of Abraham's home when Isaac was born by Sarah.
Isaac had 12 grandsons who formed the 12 tribes of Isreal. One of the grandsons was named Judah. From his tribe come the Jews.
From Ishmael came the Arabs and the divine prophet Muhammed.
Both Jews and Muslims agree they are related.
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In Africa the lighter skinned blacks look down on the darker skinned ones. As humans.....We got a long way to go yet.
hally barry is considered gorgeous by many but women with very dark skin and negroid features are not.
lazs
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You guys really wanna subscribe to the New Scientist.
It's been common knowledge for a few years now that EVERYONE can be traced back to a group of about 60,000 people who slowly spread out of Africa through the middle east. The odd thing though is that among these 60,000 only 7 different women spread their chromosomes about and since then.....all the offspring of 6 of em have died out.
That's right, we're all descended from the same black chick. Guess she had no rhythm though.
The only thing studies haven’t told us is whether or not indigenous people such as Aborigine’s or South American Indians (or North come to that) have the same genetic make up. This is simply because the studies haven’t been done yet. It'll be interesting to find out if these guys have the same genetics or whether they really are "other" people.
(http://image1ex.villagephotos.com/extern/640697.jpg)
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Originally posted by Swoop
EVERYONE can be traced back to a group of about 60,000 people who slowly spread out of Africa through the middle east. The odd thing though is that among these 60,000 only 7 different women spread their chromosomes about and since then.....all the offspring of 6 of em have died out.
Soo...should that be 59993 guys and 7 women? Or ~30 000 guys and gals, but only 7 women who managed to "spread their chromosones"? (i e get pregnant).
...yeah...well, I think this one ranks right up there with the big bang theory actually.
*Insert picture of occhams razor here*
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I always figured I was of the human race. What is / are the others races???
Worrying about skin is plain stupid. Just wear it and deal with life.
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Originally posted by Saurdaukar
The first time I saw that peice I almost fell over.
Id repeat some of the great lines, but Im sure someone would go complain to Skuzzy and call me a bigot.
So much for humor. :rolleyes:
The book titles were great.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Soo...should that be 59993 guys and 7 women? Or ~30 000 guys and gals, but only 7 women who managed to "spread their chromosones"? (i e get pregnant).
...yeah...well, I think this one ranks right up there with the big bang theory actually.
*Insert picture of occhams razor here*
Careful Swoop. You brought up something Hortlund doesn't understand. Next thing you know he'll be calling people names and pratelling on about how modern cosmologists are all devil worshipers....
Geeez Looo-eeez Hortie baby. If it makes you feel better, her name was Eve.
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Originally posted by blue1
This I object to:
Note the automatic assumption, 'raped or seduced'. No allowance for any other possibility like normal love and relationships. Typical PC crap.
I think that if one person is a SLAVE and one is the OWNER it is fair to assume the sex was nonconsentual. Or do you believe that the slave girl really wanted to be a slave?
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*holds up mirror for MT*
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And MT...how EXACTLY would a woman "spread her chromosones" if not by giving birth?
You may answer now.
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Yea, there is such a thing as race. Does it really matter? I don't think so, everyone is pretty much the same genetically. The real difference is the difference in culture that springs from the difference in race.
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Originally posted by SOB
Blah blah blah. Shyaddup Sambo, and get back under Fatty's desk.
SOB
PS...If we're all black, does that mean I can check the "African-American" box on my financial aid forms?
Well said. Shouldn't he be picking coconuts or something?
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Well, Fatty generally tells Animal to "polish the banana", but I'm sure he likes it when his coconuts are picked too.
SOB
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Get over it people.
there is but one race.
THE HUMAN RACE
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Originally posted by Hortlund
And MT...how EXACTLY would a woman "spread her chromosones" if not by giving birth?
You may answer now.
Steve, read about it. It's all true. And no I'm not saying at there were 7 women and only 1 of em gave birth, I'm saying that out of those 60,000 offspring from only 7 different women spread out from the Middle East into Europe and since all those thousands of years ago the people descended from 6 of em have died out. Maybe they didnt like each other.
We're all one big not so happy family.
Except Africans. Africans have a waaaay more varied genetic make up than the rest of the world, see in places like South Africa there were tribes who kept to themselves until the British moved in in the 1800s. The rest of the worlds gene pool seems to be very bland in comparision, but we're very well stirred.
(http://image1ex.villagephotos.com/extern/640697.jpg)
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On the last refinance of my house I was asked "what race?" I replied... "what is popular right now?" she said "American indian".. I said, "put me down for that". She you cann't do that if you aren't an indian and I told her to go ahead and prove ai wasn't she conceded that I had a good point and marked me down for American indian.
MT be careful.. if we all come from one woman then there is no need for affirmative action.
Oh... was that woman light skinned or dark skinned? did she look like some white model or like oprah or like something in between?
Think I'll pass on this theory and wait a decade or so for the next one.
lazs
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Somebody say race?
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There is only one race Human. Everything else is just bullchit.
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*starts handing out mirrors to lots of ppl*
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Urchin: Yea, there is such a thing as race.
Depending on your definition. If your definition of a "race" is a "large inbred extended family with specific gene allele frequensy distribution", then there is. Of course it's anybody's private decision which treshholds to use as "substabtial". In some respects you can have the whole humanity as one race, in others you can delineate hundreds of distinct ethnicities.
Does it really matter? I don't think so, everyone is pretty much the same genetically.
Does the alleged 1-2 standard deviations difference in intelligence matter? It's not really a trifle like the skin color that is the cause of all the controvercy, right?
The real difference is the difference in culture that springs from the difference in race.
Than again, what kind of difference in culture would we expect from populations with differing cognitive abilities if those differences proved to be true?
If the hereditary difference of 2 standard deviations is real, what kind of culture would a population develop in which 50% are capable of graduating a college compared to a population where less than 50% of population is capable of graduating a hight school, occasional genius nonwithstanding?
The urgency of verifying or refuting those assertions is very real. If there is no such difference in intelligence, the actual causes of disparity must be studied and dealt with.
If there is a difference in intelligence between races/ethnicities, then the affirmative action policies aimed at representation proportionate to the relative sizes of the populations cannot work and should be abandoned and replaced with policies intended to ameliorate the results of disparities or, more futuristically, to promote genetically-based selection/manipulation of progeny.
That would mean a huge loss of taxpayer's money and political linfluence for some people, so all the exitement surrounding the topic is understandable.
miko
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"I have no race prejudices, and I think I have no color prejudices or caste prejudices nor creed prejudices. Indeed I know it. I can stand any society. All that I care to know is that a man is a human being--that is enough for me; he can't be any worse."
Mark Twain
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Actually, this discussion has no place on our board. I apologize for it getting started, and missing it.