Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Puke on July 13, 2003, 01:52:47 AM
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I am not mechanically inclined whatsoever other than simple plug/filter/fluid replacements. I have a 1982 280ZX that is my 2nd car and that I rarely drive. However, recently I've been thinking on maybe a few simple mods to the car that might boost some torque. I'm mostly looking for improvement for quickness and not top speed. And nothing too outlandish either. I'm certain there are some really knowlegeable people on here that can offer suggestions and that's what I'm doing, asking for peoples opinions and suggestions. Off the top of my uneducated head, I'm thinking some exhaust modifications, maybe flywheel/clutch and maybe some electrical such as coil and maybe cooler air intake. I'd love to hear opinions from those in the know.
Here's a link to a photo of the car I'm referring to:
http://members.cox.net/barking.pig/images/280ZX_1982.jpg
Oh, and I won't personally be performing the modifcations, I'd have a professional do them.
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the easiest way to get torque out of that car is to pull out the z motor and trans and replace it with a small block ford or chevy of at least 383 ci.
lazs
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Im not really familiar with the 280's - is that engine a turbo or NA?
If its a turbo - you can increase boost (relatively sure it would be computer comtrolled)
If its NA - you can let the engine breath better (air meter, air filter, free flowing exhaust).
Or you can try and reduce drivetrain loss - lightweight flywheel, drive shaft, etc.
Whats the displacement on that engine?
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The engine swap is too much, I still want to keep it a ZX. I know I'll never be the king of the drag strip, I just want a little extra oomph for when I drive to get groceries on the weekend.
Saur, unfortunately, I have the normally aspirated L28 engine. It's an inline-6 2.8 liter. I've been also doing a lot of research on ZX and Nissan boards and the light bulb in my head is slowly turning on to a faint glow. Right now is the research phase trying to pull advice from all avenues. I wish I had a turbo but I've had this car since I was 21-years old, and now I'm 37 and I know it's always been well cared for.
The intake and exhaust sounds like a good way to go (I'm in CA and so much has to be done behind the cat) and flywheel as well, though with the flywheel it sounds as though I'll need a new clutch to go with it.
I guess my question might be too open-ended and too difficult to answer. But maybe one day, if I ever take it to a specialty performance shop, I have some idea of the direction I want to go. What about something like this: http://www.zcarparts.com/store/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=11-3073&Category_Code=PFFC14
One guy recently posted this: "Made a shakedown pass on my ZX friday night and ran a 12.593@114.22 on pump gas." That would be fun! I don't know all his mod's yet, but I'm guessing too much for me.
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exhaust squeezes out a few horses, manifold sports cat etc. air filter also a good option, ecu chip. U can do engine mod such as camshafts etc but leads to more money. But once you start spending u cant stop:) i havent yet
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Again, I am treading into waters where I don't have a clue. I'm wondering, if I do get into more compression (sounds like the L28s run real low and can be increased quite a bit 'cause it's actually a "strong inline engine") with cams and maybe shaved pistons or whatever they are talking about, will this affect my being able to meet CA smog laws?
If I go to a performance place, what should I say or look for or be wary of? I fear that if I do go to any place I won't have a clue what is being explained to me and really do not want to be taken advantage of or led down the wrong path.
I'm thinking either:
http://www.jimwolftechnology.com/
http://www.mossyperformance.com/mossy.html
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This guy says "dyno got the engine to 415 Hp @ 473 foot pounds of torque..." and he thinks he can get "When I complete the cam design, I should be able to acheive 600 horse power from the engine" which seems ludicrous to me, though kinda has me salivating over here. LOL
http://www.angelfire.com/extreme/280zxt/
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u can get outputs like that but it cost alot, over here it costs on average £200 for every 20-50 BHP.
Just tell them u have a buget of whatever and wanna improve acceleration
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Im not surprised because its turbocharged. The torque numbers though are the case because that 280ZX engine has long stroke to begin with. Its a very rugged inline 6 design with a chain for cam/valve timing. This engine can produce lotsa power. I would ask myself if this car is running in good condition first, your car looks very clean BTW. Make sure your cars Fi is healthy, fuel line has good pressure, good fuel pump/filter, clean injectors, good working air mass sensor, other sensors, etc... compression is even across six bangers, no bent or burnt valve sets etc... Then Id pop in a header, clean up the ignition system/coil/wires/check timing. Then if I wanted more power, (after making sure valve timing was good) I would take the head off and have work done to the valve seats and have intake track ported. You could also remap your Fi a bit here, maybe with a new chip.
Taking it another step. Dont know what your stock compresion ratio is but if its average, you can increase compression a bit while the heads are off unless they have higher compression after market pistons (better way to go, less math, measuring). That always does it for more power, you'll notice that. Then to make all that kick even more, do the CAM timing or replace it with non OEM cam, reset ignition timing. Light flywheel helps engine rev faster for acceleration (may also make engine die if you go off gas abrubtly in neutral) but depending on your Fi, how light your flywheel is, your engine may not idle as smooth (idle wanders). Your Fi may need to be remaped with all these mods though. More extreme you go, the more you may need to mod your Fis map. Specially the CAM stuff.
Anyways, getting a good mechanic and using proven mods will ensure you dont get side effects that affect road drivability.
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I'll be honest, my head is starting to spin here. One minute I think something is a good idea and the next I'm second-guessing it. Now the flywheel idea is out, unless I really go with a lot of power.
If I recall correctly, the n/a L28 is at about 8.5:1 compression but can handle up to about 10 or 10.5 before predetonation is a problem. At least I think that's what I read (I'm reading a lot lately.)
I think my Fi is okay. Last year the dealer stated I had some leaking around a couple injectors and I had them replaced. I think I had them perform a complete diagnostic and don't recall any other problems regarding fuel injection.
Maybe I'll just go with cat back exhaust upgrade and maybe replace the stock air intake with something better. Or, maybe I'll have someone drop in a turbo L28 with all the fixens. I just can't make up my mind.
Errr, what is OEM? I see that a lot. (I'm sure I'm gonna hit myself in the forehead when I learn what it is.)
I've e-mailed two performance places today asking if they work on the older ZX's. I'll be interested in what they say. I'm guessing I may put $3,000-$5,000 into it and have no clue what that buys.
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Just read this, about a guy putting a turbo 280ZX engine into a 240Z:
"I can put a 280zx turbo engine into my car with a few go fast goodies, raise the boost to 10psi, and put an estimated 200hp to the wheels, and with another $1000 or so (this would put me close to what I've already spent on this N/A engine) I can add some more parts like an intercooler, fuel pressure regulator, and bigger injectors, to get me closer to 250 at the wheels and have a car that will do 0-60 in about 5 seconds and mid to low 13 second 1/4 miles. This will be faster than almost anything else on the street. AND I'll get all this with much better gas mileage. I have kicked myself so many times for not just doing this to begin with. Even in the heavier ZX, 250hp is nothing to sneeze at, and putting a turbo into an n/a zx will be even easier than what it's gonna take to put it in my 240..... you've got the better starting point. The only way you're gonna get anywhere near that kinda power out of an N/A is to have a stroker built, which is gonna cost way more, at least $5,000 to do it right the first time. If you just want a bit more power than sure building up your N/A would do the trick but if you want a fast car..... dude dont make the same mistake as me and pour money into an N/A that will probably never be as fast as you want it to be. Just my .02 cents"
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Can't believe nobody suggested gearing. If you want a lot of extra oomph off the line gearing is the best bang for the buck there is. You suggested you weren't concerned with top speeds so lowering your gear ratio (numerically higher gears) will get you to top speed a lot faster. The downside is top speed will be reduced.
OEM = Original Equipment Manufacture (stock parts)
Since you're in San Diego... go by the Nissan Dealership on Convoy. I believe its Pacific Nissan but its been awhile so my memory is a little hazy. Its just north of Balboa.. located next to the Fun Bike Center. They carry the Nissan Motorsports stuff and if nothing else pick of the Nissan catalog to get some ideas from.
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I'm real close to Mossy Nissan in Oceanside, and they have some subset there called "Mossy Performance." Yes, I'm hearing a lot about swapping trannies and differentials and stuff. Right now, it's really looking like a turbo engine swap with a few bells and whistles might be the trick. I'm looking into this. Also, hopefully Mossy or Jim Wolf Racing replies to my e-mail regarding working on the older ZX cars and then I'll ask them if they can do the swap. It also sounds like the L28et (turbo) engines are becoming hard to find because people are popping them into all sorts of things. Any suggestions where to look for a rebuilt turbo engine...or do I not want rebuilt and let the Performance guys do that? I certainly can't pull an engine from a wreck.
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Originally posted by sparkzz
Can't believe nobody suggested gearing. If you want a lot of extra oomph off the line gearing is the best bang for the buck there is. You suggested you weren't concerned with top speeds so lowering your gear ratio (numerically higher gears) will get you to top speed a lot faster. The downside is top speed will be reduced.
'Duh' - good idea - surprised it wasnt mentioned yet myself. Shorter gearing can make all the difference in the world.
There are a couple other avenues not yet mentioned. One would be wieght. I forget the conversion, but dropping 'X' amount of lbs is the equivelant of adding X more power.
So far I think we've come up with allowing your engine to breath better (afterall, what is an engine but an air pump). I think this would be the least intrusive and best option for you at this early stage (porting/polishing/cam regrinds/etc are very expensive and alter the internals of the engine - I wouldnt recommend this unless you REALLY know what you or your shop is doing).
A decent cat-back exhaust setup will probably yeild you from 10-15HP by itself.
A cone airfilter or K&N drop in filter 'might' get you 1/2 HP (biggest myth in the auto industry - air filters actually dont do **** by themselves - but they can make a car sound good - for those of us that get goosebumps hearing a well tuned carborated engine - this is about as close as youll get with any FI car.
However... Im not familiar with how the Z engine measures air. If you can change this system, you can gain another 10-15 HP (again, by itself). If there is an air meter or air flow sensor of some sort - its almost certain that someone has built a better one to squeeze out extra power.
When you put the two together (hypothetically speaking) - a less restrictive air filter, a more efficient air meter, and less restrictive exhaust, you might see 20 HP if your optimistic. (mods like this and their 'manufacturer quoted gains' are never accurate and never 'stacked' or added together on top of other mods.
Where you will really start to take advantage of this setup is custom burned software (assuming your engine is electronicly controled). If you gained... lets say 15HP from exhaust and intake/airmeter you can have a Z speed shop burn software that will take full advantage of both mods. Remember your car will still be equipt with the OEM chip set which is not set up for your mods.
Custom burned software can probably squeeze out another 10HP just by making these adjustments. (~20-30HP)
As with getting power out of any NA engine, this will be expensive - figure $2,000-$2,500 for al of the above (Im guessing - not up to speed on Z aftermaket prices).
In any event, the car will definately 'feel' faster (or just different) because your torque curve will be altered, throttle response will be improved, etc etc etc.
Kind of long winded, hope I didnt confuse you even more.
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(just read your last post)
I think an FI (forced induction (turbo) in this case) engine swap would actually be the most cost efficient... but at that point, the normal reaction would be 'why not sell it and buy a turbo Z?'
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Pretty car, Puke.
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That gear ratio is not a bad idea if you want better accel without HP worries. Well I guess you may have two options here. One, swap in a turbo kit or OEM turbo engine. You can leave the compression ratio as is then because turbos and superchargers like lower compression engines. Or increase N/A compression ratio and modify your intake system. The stock Fi doesnt breath very well because you have one air mass box (eletronicly linked to Fi) at the front, one throttle body, then a cast intake manifold that splits all that up into the six intake ports. You can get rid of that and install some dual sidedraft carbs for much better performance.
http://www.racetep.com/ztripdcoe.html
http://www.racetep.com/xmasspecials.html
http://home.att.net/~jason510/weber.htm
Can also have the mechanic jet it to your driving/performance needs.
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Saur, very good question...why wouldn't I just buy a complete 280ZX Turbo automobile? A biggie is because these things are know as "rust buckets." My car is a "California car" and I've owned it since I was 21...lessee, that makes it 15-years now. My car is in very good shape and I may have jumped the gun anyway because my car is due to be out of a body shop any day. I'm having a rusted panel replaced under the gas intake and the front hood is being replaced due to a few bubbles appearing at the leading edge. The guy pulled all the trim off and is supposed to be doing a pretty good paint job with "extra" prep and a two-stage paint job to match the original color (the silver you see in the pic...which is about a 5-yr old pic.) At first I was thinking new paint and then modified exhaust back of the cat with 2.5" pipe. Then of course I get all embroiled in this thing and I started getting interested in engine mod's. Now I've decided I want to dump a 280ZX Turbo with a few extra bells and whistles into my car (I guess you can easily achieve 250Hp from the stock 180HP turbo engine.) 10-15-years ago I looked into this mod and no one was really doing it but it sounds very common and the engine just fits right in except for a few differences in the wiring and some fuel pumps and some other small things. Once I have the engine in, I think then I'll match the differential/gears to the HP. A lot of people are saying the non-turbo 5-speed tranny is good and can handle this HP and is actually preferred to the turbo tranny (not sure why.) The turbo L28s were only made 1981-1983 and so there weren't a lot made. The first 240Z was built 1969 (1970 model year) which people are putting L28 Turbos into and so you have basically 13-years of Z's trying to claim 3-years worth of turbo engines and it sounds a little like they are getting hard to find. So basically, my next step is to find someone who has done this type of swap and talk with him about working on mine. Then I have to find an engine and then the games begin. I know I probably should have dropped an engine before body work, but at that point, I wasn't planning on this. Surprise!
(When I was 21-years old, I totalled my first 280ZX [it actually caught air in a spin out] and a few months later wiped out on a motorcycle and both those incidents really calmed me down regarding vehicles. I think I'm older and wiser now [and have more money] and I think I can handle some extra power again.)
Basically, my car is in good shape and all I need now is a good shape L28T engine to drop into it. I doubt I'll do anything before Sept, I really want to research this well. I've also heard a few problems with CA emissions going with an older engine into a newer car, so I need a 82 or 83 turbo engine.
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Puke,
The all around cheapest good horsepower increase will come from some form of super charging or turbo charging. My reccomendation is to contact the folks at http://www.procharger.com. I have been impressed with what I have read over there and plan to use one of their superchargers on my pickup in the not too distant future.
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WARNING!!!!WARNING!!!!WARNING!!!!WARNING!!!!
Many a hot rodder's career has started with the phrase "i just want a little more power, nothing too radical." My '68 Cougar started out as a nice cruising car then I decided it needed just a little more pep. A little bit of pep turned out to not be enough so now she's getting about 475 hp, new front suspension, tubbed rear end and a 4.11 posi-trac. Be prepared for a second mortgage as you look at new K&N filters. :D
Cougar
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Supercharger. Probably a kit out there custom made for 280s. Unlike a turbo, you'll get instant boost and instant power. Turbo will lack in low-end torque and power until you get to 3k RPM or so.