Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: LePaul on July 14, 2003, 11:55:19 AM
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Story at http://www.bangornews.com/editorialnews/article.cfm?ID=404428&
SEBAGO LAKE — AP — A lawyer for a company that wants to salvage World War II planes from the bottom of Sebago Lake said he would turn over any remains of the pilots so they could be properly buried. But that assurance doesn’t appease U.S. and United Kingdom officials, who are embroiled in a legal fight over the remains of two British Royal Navy pilots, who were both 19 when their planes collided and plunged into the lake on May 16, 1944. An adventurous wreck hunter and a wealthy aircraft collector have found at least one of the Corsairs at the bottom of Sebago. The fate of the two fighter planes and the pilots’ remains is the subject of an international legal dispute over ownership and a philosophical clash over how to best honor the men. "We still plan to go recover two Corsairs from Sebago Lake and, if any human remains are encountered, to treat them with all respect and dignity and turn them over to the local authorities and would expect them to be buried with full military honors," said Peter Hess, lawyer for the Historic Aircraft Restoration Corp. But Hess will first have to persevere in U.S. District Court in Portland, where the government of the United Kingdom is protesting the effort. The governments of Maine and the United States are supporting Britain’s effort to prevent the war grave from being disturbed. "I don’t know of another situation where any court has allowed commercial exploitation of a military grave site," said James Gould, a Washington, D.C.-based lawyer representing the British. The pilots, 2nd Lts. Vaughan Reginald Gill and Raymond Laurence Knott, were both from Leigh-on-Solent, Hampshire and were among a group of pilots training in Maine, many of whom would later serve in the Pacific on the British aircraft carrier HMS Vengeance.
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If two F-16's collided today, would we just leave them there and call it a "military grave"?
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its a war grave. should be left as it is.
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Originally posted by Furious
If two aircraft collided today, would we just leave them there and call it a "military grave"?
but its not today, they have been there undisturbed for nearly 60 years.
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It struck me as pillaging...get the plane, if body found, do what they must...so long as they get the plane.
:rolleyes:
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If it'd be me, I would prefer to be buried back at the home lands or own country (properly, not somewhere in the forrest or bottom of the lake of my country.. of course), regardless of the years my body would been left in it's "war grave".
Thats just my opinion, in case someone would bother to argue over the matter if someone would be willing to do it.
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Dead people don't care. Get the planes.
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Raise it, Corsairs are more important than bones.
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Yup, just forgotten bones, but if they raise them, they get some fitting attention to their plight and cause, and a proper burial. Seems quite fitting to me.
Also, then the world gets more of these magnificent machines to ponder and wonder at.
I don’t see why anyone would want to prevent so much good from such a tragedy.
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lets raise the arizona while we are at it!
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Originally posted by Furball
lets raise the arizona while we are at it!
I wondered if anyone would say that (or the Titanic, but its so severely decayed)
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Of course someone would have replied something that ridiculous Lepaul if they thought their initial post was somehow discounted or made moot by a rational reply that they could not possibly discount.
It’s the "Reply" inevitable of the Post/Reply part of O’Club Forum.
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Saw abit of that Bismark documentary, and they mentioned they were not going to bring anything to the surface (i believe) stating because its a war grave.
leave the planes down there.
There's only one reason there aren't more of these planes around ... $$ always potato peelin $$
Seems life/death has no price anymore... What next? damn that was a $3500 casket we just buried my great aunt in... hey in 10 years lets dig it up and put it away so we can reuse it...
SKurj
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I think it should be up to remaining family members, sons or daughters. They might want a proper burial. I wouldn't want my dad sitting at the bottom of a lake in another country. I would want him resting with the rest of the family.
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"What next? damn that was a $3500 casket we just buried my great aunt in..."
(http://www.tqc39.com/kiss.jpg)
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we dig up war graves all the time. lets get over ourselves and raise them up and give the bodys to the familys. or 100 years from now they will do it anyways and by then the planes will be to decayed to be worth a damn for historical study.
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war grave leave it there
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need to define "war grave"
i think if it could have been done at the time the Arizona would have been raised and the dead buried, but given the war pressure, lack of manpower and technoligy, it was left where it sank.
whenever the US finds a new airplane crash site in vietnam, they bring the bones back for burial, they don't leave the bones and call the crash site a "war grave"
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The US did that after WW2 as well - Britain didn't. I don't know if there is an official policy on crashed planes and whether there are conditions that relate to the type of terrain. I'm trying to think of a similar situation, but can't remember one.
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Raise the lawyer and company ancestors first ... then raise the fallen.
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That would be another tarded inevitable "Reply".
You didn't win a prize Straffo, yet.
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Damit ! I make my best at an time I'm suppose to be sleeping and I don't even have an have accesit (*) ?
(*) should be a "certificate of merit" for you or something like that ...
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I'm sure Vaughan Reginald Gill and Raymond Laurence Knott are far beyond caring.
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how does a the sight of a training accident in NE USA translate to a "war grave". I am unaware of any war that occurred in Maine that involved Corsairs.
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And with that, I retire to the DVD collection.
TK Furious. Ozzy is calling "LOUDER! LOUDER!" Actually he was.
Cheers.
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(last post for awhile again guys so if I don't respond it's because I didn't get to read the responses, etc.)
The guys trying to recover the aircraft could have some serious problems. I can't remember where I read it but it was an article written by the leader of a team of guys who looks for 'salvage' (sunken ships, aircraft under water, etc.).
The problem with any argument the recovery people could make is that the aircraft are still the property of the U.K. or U.S. military. The article told of several occasions where the salvage guys recovered something (once I think it was a TBM) and once they had recovered it the government stepped in and said "Thanks we'll take our aircraft/wreckage/salvage now" and compensated the salvage guys pennies on the dollar for their expenses. Of course part of the blame rests with the salvage guys because they didn't check with the government first and knew that 'post recovery seizure' was a possibility.
What I am surprised at is that I haven't seen the opinions of the surviving families listed, mentioned, etc. If they are at the bottom of a lake and it was a training accident I think the final word would have to come from any surviving family. If it was my Dad, I think I'd say recover the aircraft make it flyable and have my Dad's name and wartime rank on the side forever and a picture of him in the cockpit so everyone remembered where the aircraft came from.
The Arizona is a different case in my book - it's a landmark that's a big part of history that happens to contain the graves of a bunch of brave Sailors. But even the Arizona will be gone before too long the sea is eating away at her.
Mike/wulfie
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A/C with their aircrew, that are discovered in the jungles of the pacific, or in Europe those aircrew are always removed from the crash site and reburied in a military cemetary. I see no real difference here, except perhaps the fact these aircraft were discovered for profit only....
Tronsky
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What if the egyptians had been this anal?
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Originally posted by Furious
how does a the sight of a training accident in NE USA translate to a "war grave". I am unaware of any war that occurred in Maine that involved Corsairs.
Damn, I'm glad somebody finally had the common sense to say this. I spent every summer of my childhood swimming in Sebago Lake. There certainly aren't any marks around it of a war that I've ever found. To be honest, I can't even really figure out why two British pilots were in Maine to begin with. You'd have thought they had more pressing matters on their side of the pond to tend to. This 'war grave' logic escapes me here. If they'd been driving a car in Maine at the time and gone off the road into the lake and drowned, would that still be a war grave?
The good news is that Sebago is a relatively clean lake, so the planes shouldn't have suffered too much damage from the water. It's also the deepest lake in Maine, around 450 feet or so. I doubt they've been disturbed by much in the last 50 years.
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That's a bit disrespectful - they were servicemen training for the war. Maybe they were to ferry their planes to the Pacific via the US. Shouldn't they be afforded the same respect as those who died in combat?
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Brits don't belong in Corsairs.
Clean those bones out of those fine planes.
;)
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make both sides happy - get the planes and put the bones in the glovebox .. have your plane and your grave.
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Originally posted by mjolnir
Damn, I'm glad somebody finally had the common sense to say this. I spent every summer of my childhood swimming in Sebago Lake. There certainly aren't any marks around it of a war that I've ever found. To be honest, I can't even really figure out why two British pilots were in Maine to begin with. You'd have thought they had more pressing matters on their side of the pond to tend to. This 'war grave' logic escapes me here. If they'd been driving a car in Maine at the time and gone off the road into the lake and drowned, would that still be a war grave?
The good news is that Sebago is a relatively clean lake, so the planes shouldn't have suffered too much damage from the water. It's also the deepest lake in Maine, around 450 feet or so. I doubt they've been disturbed by much in the last 50 years.
Where in Maine are you from, mjolnir?
Bangor, here
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Brits don't belong in Corsairs.
Clean those bones out of those fine planes.
we taught you how to fly the g'dam things! you were scared to fly em until we showed you how ;)
and creamo, incase you hadn't noticed, i was being sarcastic about raising the arizona. I was just making the point that if its ok to raise the corsairs then why not the ship.
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Originally posted by LePaul
Where in Maine are you from, mjolnir?
Bangor, here
People still live in Bangor? I grew up in Washington. Knox County.
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(http://classof88.checksix.net/smstandpipe.jpg)
Yup, Bangor's grown too,
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I dont think bones even last 50 years underwater. There is most likely nothing left of those pilots.
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Originally posted by davidpt40
I dont think bones even last 50 years underwater. There is most likely nothing left of those pilots.
That's a good questions...whenever they have these documenataries with remote/robot subs with cameras, I wonder if they would find any sort of human remains after all this time
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Dead guys don't give a sh*t. Raise the aircraft.
SOB
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When they raised the Confederate submarine H.L. Hunley they found bones and skulls and eventually accounted for all 9 crewmembers. The Hunley sunk in 1864.
There's some reason why these aircraft weren't raised at the time of the crash that most probably has it's roots in "wartime expediency". I seriously doubt anyone at the time said "let's leave them there as a 'war grave'."
I'd raise the aircraft and give the remains military burial. That precedent is clearly established.
Probably run the idea by any surviving family members first as a courtesy, but I seriously doubt they'd oppose their ancestors getting a full military burial with honors in their homeland. That's what would have been done during the war had the crash occured in an easily reached area.
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I don't usually give long opinions on these things, but since I'm from Maine too, I will in this case.
I think the salvage company should have contacted the family before looking at legal issues or getting involved in a fight with either goverment. As a couple of you have pointed out, has anyone even contacted the families involved? Since they know their names, it shouldn't be too hard to find any surviving family.
If I were the salvage company, I would have approached the family first so that I had their wishes weighing in on my side in court. Plus it would just look a little less...well...moneygrubbing is the word that comes to mind. All sites of this nature should be handled in a respectful way, especially where more than one government is involved. I wonder if the outcome would have been the same if a 'nonprofit' war memorial committee or museum had wanted to raise the planes and pilots instead of a 'for profit' company.
Also there's this 'war grave' concept. To me, it would be more inspiring to see the planes these guys flew in a museum and learn about their stories, maybe some of their lives, as opposed to just leaving it alone and letting them and their contributions be forgotten. At least that's how I would feel if they were my relatives.
In my opinion, the family wishes of the deceased pilots comes first, then the planes.
LePaul, Mjolnir is from originally Standish, about 5 miles from Sabego Lake. I'm originally from Ellsworth, just down the road from you. We meant to write you ages ago, (we had a maine question for you) but never got a chance to. :)