Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: humble on May 11, 2001, 01:28:00 PM
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Having been away for 4-5 months I'm relearning alot of stuff...however...one of the basic ACM fundementals seems to no longer apply (especially with Niki's). I've flown for almost 8 years and i'm truely confused here.
Situation as follows....
Your cruising at 15k or so at full throttle, level and trimmed, DAR shows a con in your front quarter...you wep and dive 1500 or so and level out just before vis...bogie appears in your front view as expected between top of "front glass and top of gunsight....you maintain speed and heading as you enter "premerge" you maintain heading and watch...con is angling in from slightly above and to the side...as you close thru 3k you turn into and gently pull up to minimize seperation...at 1500 con rolls inverted for a top down shot...again a slight pull up to avoid any possible shot...at merge AOT is probably 270 deg...figure 180 with vidio lag.
To me this is and was a "dweeb" merge, yet time after I'm seening planes...especially nikki's mantaining "contact" and literally climbing up my prettythang with no apparent effect's of gravity G's or physics. i'm not aware of any combination of manuvers that can produce this result in the real world...or prior to last 6 months here or any other sim.
I'm not talking about pos E vert manuvering by a dissimiliar aircraft...where you drive thru and under and come screaming up from the basement....or a true bounce from above.
This is simply a neg E merge where the "proper" tactic should envariably involve maintaining at least co-alt via a "reroll" to an oblique climbing vertical...ideally to a cold side lag out of vis...now the con (ME) has to roll in extension to reorient and try and counter as plane screams back in.
I'm seeing the same folks rack up a lot of kills with this and similiar tactics that I obviously cant understand....so before I go any further i'd love to get some comments on this. I do have clips...i havent looked at em yet, I'd like to get comments so i can match em up to what I see.
Whats funny is I have never seen this stuff duplicated 1 on 1 in TA or DA.
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I'd like to see the films so I can get a more detailed picture of what you are seeing.
Tough to comment otherwise.
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Sean "Lephturn" Conrad - Aces High Chief Trainer
A proud member of the mighty Flying Pigs
http://www.flyingpigs.com
Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome (http://lephturn.webhop.net) for AH articles and training info!
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I'm so confused.
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If I understand what he is saying, he got the other guy to dive into the merge for a bad angle semi-HO. The other fellow naturally overshot and oversped on the way through, yet somehow managed to reverse and catch him on his zoom upwards from the merge.
Is that close?
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I'll be happy to forward clips to anyone interested. I haven't looked at em yet since I'm hoping to get at least a theoretical overview prior to viewing.
Leph...
These were pretty classic neg-E merges (from my pers.) in yak 9t or f6. All are vertical overshoots to the low side by con on merge following a nose down shot on opener...in some instances I extend with nikki climbing up my 6 with no evidence of vertical displacement...I'd expect con to be 1.2-1.5 under min with true pull up....he's tucked in at 500-600 on my six with less than 10 deg AOT...or chop and roll inverted expecting Nikki to be under and at an angles disadvantage...only to find him behind my 3-9 line bringing his nose up.
I'm not ware of anyway to turn a plane in the vertical DOWN that tightly and maintain that speed under the current FM. Kieran's read is exactly right....again at this point I simply want to learn...with 5000+ hours and 1+ yr as a "trainer" in AW plus a tour here I thought I had a decent handle on basic ACM...I've worn shaw out looking for similiar stuff (as well as other sources) and see only reenforcement that this is an impossibility.
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What you are seeing is the n1k 's Ability To Disagree with what Newton Stated. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) The Laws of Physics Do Not apply to the N1k Becuase it has an UNrealistic Phyisics model.
IT was just the Other night that I was killed by one After Out flying it in a 190A8.
Heres a little summary of this UFO experience. The n1k was about 4k out (my 11 o'clock) and About 2k Under my flight Level.
I had been comming in from 21k and crusiing along at around 450mph when i got to the 4k point. I was around 5k and he was around 3k. I his energy state was NOT the same as mine. I went almost Directly into him And Over head, and Started a 1.5 - 2G pull into the Vertical. While doing so I keep an eye on the n1k. The N1k Kept on Flying Straight untill about a Distance of around 4 k Behing me. Again... After we had merged (me with more alt) And As I went over the Top roughtly around 9K he had started a reversal from 3k OUT.. and CLIMBED to me. And shot me as I was just strating to come down. Now that is Complete utter Bs.. im sorry HE did not Lead turn me.. lag turn me.. HE didnt do anything At all except TURN while being 4k!!! out and climbing to me An already 2K alt advatge plane. I find this to be ufo like.
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LOL
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Originally posted by humble:
Your cruising at 15k or so at full throttle, level and trimmed, DAR shows a con in your front quarter...
<ammo brings whistle to mouth and simultaneously reaches to back pocket projecting his yellow penalty flag forward>
Personal foul!!!! Individual using clipboard DAR while in flight! 15 yards, loss of down.
ammo
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hehe....I agree completely ammo...BUT, thats the point of this thread....we all play the same game. How we use the features is up to us. I'll send clips to anyone interested. I simply do not understand how you accomplish what I have on film in this flight enviornment. These same squeakes existed before I left, they are here now....but I see no clips. If consensus is I flew a bad hop...great, maybe I'll learn something...if others agree with me, maybe HT and pyro will address it.
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I'm not qualified to comment on the N1ks flight model, but I will say it sure seems to be able to do just about everything but go super fast. (Don't try to dive away from one though, they pick up speed faster than a p47 until about 500 mph.) I only attack N1ks when flying a spit. Otherwise I try to Boom and Zoom them when I think they aren't paying attention. A co-e fight with a n1k in anything other than a n1k is not a fight that you are going to win.
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bloom25
-MAW-
(Formerly of the)
THUNDERBIRDS
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bloom,
Seems like alot of folks have nikki questions. They were out there when I left in Jan....still here. The dving/climbing seem to be two sides of same coin....drag.
Nikkis seems to build/retain E in an amazing way. If Nikki is really this good then I'm amazed we won the war.
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I guess I'm blind. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I just looked at my stats against the Nik.
Tour 15 I flew the 205 only. I ended up 7-2 against the Nik in that. Never had much problem with them.
So far in Tour 16 I am 1-0 against it in the P38 and 5-3 against it in the Spit V. (I've pretty much decided this will be a P-38 tour. SpitV is too easy. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) )
In Tour 14 when I was hopping around between the Yak-9T (1-2), the 205 (3-4), the P-51 (1-0) and the Zeke (1-1) I ended up 6-7 cumulative. A losing record, but essentially even money. I flew the Yak and the 205 for the first time that tour and really didn't know how to use them.
The Niki is good. I have never found it to be a "wonder machine" though. If I make mistakes, I die. If I don't, I usually kill it.
YMMV.
[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 05-13-2001).]
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"If Nikki is really this good then I'm amazed we won the war."
Holy... now we have the George so good it could win the entire war?
Might have been that the Japanese were out of pilots, starving, being firebombed and way out numbered.
Let the witchhunt continue, but at least make it rational, that's just plain retarded.
[This message has been edited by Creamo (edited 05-13-2001).]
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The only question I have with the nikki is it's E retention. there's an awful lot involved in Win/Loss ratios beside the planes involved. Lot of people think it's an issue, I'm leaning that way, but looking for answers.
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I know what humble means.
The example I most often see goes like this:
We in tiffie, n1ki roughly co-alt 12 oclock.
I nose the tiff over a bit and wep to get maximum speed for merge.
We merge with me just under niki setting to avoid the enivitable HO shot.
Niki blows through in a 30-40 degree dive.
I blow through and ease back to a 20-30 degree climb.
I watch the niki and slowly steepen my climb.
At this stage the most common move is the niki then loops back (hard) maxing out at d2-3 seperation and starts climbing after me.
Remember, I have not executed any hard turns, rolls etc, just flown straight thru, into a gentle climb.
The niki will always catch me or get within sprayshot distance.
Essentially the niki has blown past me, reversed, and caught me in a combination of vertical/horizontal seperation.
The only choice I have is not to climb after blow through.
Its almost like they have no E loss in either the reversal or climb. And then they accelerate in the climb resulting in an easy catch of me. I also take care not to give back any horizontal seperation as I go vertical, making the niki come to me. Still doesn't work.
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Bingo Vulcan, I put a clip on other post different but same question. I'm not questioning tactics, mine or his, except as it relates to his E state.
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Sounds like both aircraft kept a pretty constant E state. He dove and gained speed, you climbed and lost speed, but he started higher than you with possibly more E.
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exactly vulcan.
I was in a tiffie with 5k alt trying to run to kill a reported m3 at one of our fields. Lo and behold, I see a single n1k 1k below me coming for a HO.
My already fast tiffie, I decide to blow past him at high speed, planning to leave the n1k behind and get the m3 before the n1k would catch up. So I make a dive, pick speed past the needle (around 420mph I believe) and fly past and under the n1k (which had also dived a bit to pick speed).
Im now 2k from the dirt, at 420mph+... I see the n1k behind me fly away to d2.5+ or so.. then it TURNS and dives... and before I could REACH the field, the n1k was already at d1.1 and closing in quick.
Now, hell, I kept straight with wep on in a TIFFIE and here comes this THING that flies past me, TURNS and then catches up with me in no time.
If a friendly m16 hadnt pinged the n1k off my 6 im sure it wouldve gotten to spray range and nailed me.
I also remember the fight I had in a n1k vs Vulcan's tiffie. I stayed on his 6 for a mighty long time at high speed fights.. and my n1k gained on him easily.
Besides this n1k thing, the tactic humble describes is basically diving before a merge, then pulling up in a turn after the merge and catching the other guy on his climb or his turn. What I find very interesting on this is that if one of the planes in the merge goes straight UP in a hammerhead attempt, you will always look down on your 6 and see the guy that dived, TURNED hard and is now coming up to you.. at high speed.. and catches up before you manage to flip your plane over.
If my 380 mph 38 goes into said hammerhead and a spit dives like 5k to get speed and then turns and comes up after my 38, it WILL catch it. I do not understand how this is possible, I would think that the spit had to burn E TURNING, then CLIMBING those 5k back and then Climbing after my p38, which has better zoom up and is by then, much high than the initial merge.
So i've learned to become the guy that dives first (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Wells, clip is up on my other thread thanx to hooligan
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Only thing I could think of is something seems odd with momentum...some of the planes don't seem to resist direction changes at speed by either drag generation or to some extent, stick forces/drag very much.
Oreo, maybe it's a placebo thingy...
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I remember hating the N1K's guts to hell. Now I'm pretty indifferent to it's flying abilities, though it sometimes does weird stuff. I'll give you a fun example. I'm at 18k after a swoop on a Spit9 (might have been V, but probably not), doing 400mph TAS or so, since the Spit didn't want to die right away. I'm just flying along observing a fight going on below me, looking for a hapless victim at the top of a hammerhead or other vertical maneuver. I look north to see a N1K heading to the fight at 15k or so. 3k or so lower than me. I casually head in his direction, climbing slightly, at 350mph TAS. Here comes the nice part. He passes under me, and does an Immelman to me, after passing under me. He ends up at about d2.0 behind me. I think he's slow, but he starts closing the distance. So I simply do a lazy wave of my wings to him, pull into a shallow climb, and watch as Outlaw rips him apart, coming from his 6 oc, firing at d400, doing 550mph, after a dive from 25000. We have a good laugh and move on (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Rope the N1K or bring friends (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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2nd Lt. Hogni "Darling" Gylfason
332nd FG "Flying Mongrels"
143rd Pursuit Wing
(http://peterson.gm.is/img/darling_143.jpg)
[This message has been edited by darling (edited 05-13-2001).]
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Originally posted by humble:
there's an awful lot involved in Win/Loss ratios beside the planes involved.
I agree with that.
Perhaps I should have said it this way:
In the last 3 tours I've had 31 conclusive engagements with the N1K2. I won 19 and lost 12. I flew 6 different aircraft in these engagments, all in the "average" part of the plane set.
I can recall no instance in any of these fights where my opponents were able to do something or some maneuver that I considered beyond the capabilites of a high performance world war 2 fighter. Nothing they did that left my mouth hanging open and a big question mark hovering over my head.
When I lost I usually arrived at the conclusion that it was because I did something stupid or because it was simply an impossible situation (like a low, slow, shot-up -51 being bounced by a fresh Niki with alt.)
I'm certainly not saying that the Niki is perfectly modeled. Maybe it does have some E issues. Frankly, I'm not enough of an engineer or programmer to be certain in either case.
I just haven't seen the E problem. Maybe I'm just lucky. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Toad,
I know exactly what you ment and as a "plank owner" of AH your ACM is not anything I'd ever question. My two threads are simply putting out in the open an issue that continues to linger.
Since I'm an impatient angles flier at heart, I'm always dancing on the energy pinhead.
The clip on the other thread is clearly me pushing a pony where it really isnt designed to go. At the same time I truely believe that the nikki is not penalized for fundemental errors in ACM.
Truthfully a patient E fighter who flys with an attitude geared to reliving WW2 aircombat will encounter much less of this issue. You can simply factor in a performance envelope reflecting what you see and act accordingly.
Under a fly to fight, fight to win, break of when even philosophy this is a minor issue. I tend to a fly to find em, fight em as you find em, stay till it's over philosphy and it comes into play alot more.
The clips Hooligan posted happen to be 3 from same couple hours that reflect couple questions I have. I don't think the nikki is unbeatable, but it's clearly a remarkable plane as modeled in AH.
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Dude... I gots one thang to say... Ki84... your nightmares have only begun.
-SW
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Yet another thread that simply resates what pretty much everyone allready knows, there is something odd in niki vertical performance. I saw and commented on this immediately on the first day of the 1.04FM, and now it seems more and more people are beggining to catch on every day. This plane's FM needs looking at with respect to its verical perfomance and E-retention!
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ:
I saw and commented on this immediately on the first day of the 1.04FM, and now it seems more and more people are beggining to catch on every day. This plane's FM needs looking at with respect to its verical perfomance and E-retention!
YEAH DUDE.. IF LIKE ONLY YOU HAD A LITTLE BIT OF MAYBE.. PROOF?... THAT THE N1K2'S FM WAS PORKED... THEN LIKE MAYBE MORE PEOPLE WOULD LIKE... ACTUALLY BELIEVE THE CRAP YOU SPEW... LIKE TOTALLY DUDE!
-SW
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From the point of view of a 190/109 pilot, nikkis, Typhs, Spits and La7 are all in same no E loss category. Perhaps a Typh pilot may notice the difference in E loss between nikki and Typh, but for me that difference is negligible. I've experienced a lot of times the cases you all expose but against any of the planes listed above.
This is my list of UFO champion leage ordered by UFOness:
La7, Typh, nikki and, finally, spit/Hog.
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As it stands right now, it would be very hard to prove anything right or wrong about the N1K2 beyond calculations for power, wing area, etc which have been done to death anyway. If there is a problem it would probably lie within the airfoil's actual performance and how it's translated into AH.
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE:
This is my list of UFO champion leage ordered by UFOness:
La7, Typh, nikki and, finally, spit/Hog.
Can you elaborate a bit more ? I don't see anything UFO in the Tiffi (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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straffo, UFO relative to 190 or 109. That is, they loose very little E performing maneouvers that kill all the E with 190s or 109s.
In the case of Typh, it can build up speed at level even faster than G10 and loose very little E maneouvering even in the vertical. We can put an example with a very good climber, the G10. G10 will outclimb the typh in a substained climb, but will be defeated if starts maneouvering in the vertical with the typh. In the case of 190, the typh will not only outacelerate, outturn and outzoom all of them, it is able to roll with them also. All this is applicable mainly at lo and med alts.
Yesterday I tested the La7 in MA and I just cant believe what this monster is able to do, just incredible and cant imagine the nikki performing better. In the other hand, La7 3x20 has a very weak armament, at least to kill another La7. 3 solid bursts needed to set on fire the other La. Good aiming and snapshot, but poor punch. huh! And you have WEP forever in this plane.
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE:
straffo, UFO relative to 190 or 109. That is, they loose very little E performing maneouvers that kill all the E with 190s or 109s.
That's way I perform so poorly with a 109 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) ... the 190 was my dream plane but since I'm now in love with the beast (the tiffy if ya prefer (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) )I don't fly it much (once per tour on average)
In the case of Typh, it can build up speed at level even faster than G10 and loose very little E maneouvering even in the vertical. We can put an example with a very good climber, the G10. G10 will outclimb the typh in a substained climb, but will be defeated if starts maneouvering in the vertical with the typh. In the case of 190, the typh will not only outacelerate, outturn and outzoom all of them, it is able to roll with them also. All this is applicable mainly at lo and med alts.
I've never been able to follow a rolling 190 ... except at low speed (<200) where quick rudder input can make the difference (no Andres it's not stick stiring (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif))
And to build speed I need to unload the plane (a 0G dive),I strongly doubt that in level I'm able to outrun a D9 but I can outzoom it (in general).
Btw I'm still a newbie for E management and ACM ... you seen it several times previously (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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LOL Mandoble you must be flying a different tiffie to me mate!
On the deck a g10 always outaccelerates me.
I cannot roll with a 190 (requires lotsa heavy e-burning rudder).
In a straight out chase any manouvring bleeds E (ie P51 chasin will catch if you turn at all).
Dora catches tiffie on the deck easily too. Although a tiffie can outturn the dora when the speed drops and you're low.
E-Bleeds on the tiffie like pig. A good tiffie pilot uses a very VERY gentle hand. Anything to hard and your dead meat, specially in a crowd.
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Vulcan, some remarks:
The g10 outaccelerates tif only starting both at very low speeds and with no alt room for the tiffie. At med or hi speeds and going a bit nose down the tiffi will win the acceleration race (lo alt).
Tiff can roll with 190A5/8 using that "e-burning" rudder, but the E lost by the 190 in the rolling scissors (using only elevator and ailerons) is greater than the lost by the Tiff adding rudder plus pulling (elevator, ailerons and rudder). The tiff quickly compensates the roll difference after two rolls. And most important, due the tiff armament, it can stay far from the 190 (500 yards or more), so, compensating even more the 190 rolls.
And yep, the tiff bleeds E (logically), but much less than any 190 or 109. Try one of these and you'll be horrified.
Dora can catch a tiffie only with a little alt advantage, else the run would be ethernaly long.
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Sorry mandoble, I disagree. I have tried the G-10 and Dora.
I have also fought (and been killed by) a lot of them and know what they can do.
I do agree the dora guns are porked though.