Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: davidpt40 on July 15, 2003, 03:24:03 AM
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I think ole'man bush is getting a bit confused. Iraq and Liberia have lots of problems : Guerilla warfare, lack of food water and medicine, brutal regimes, poverty, etc etc.
But what about the U.S.A.? We have some problems ourselves. Over 1 million prisoners, more than any other nation in the world. Obesity hovering at 30%. The U.S. ranks low in public education. Factories are packing up and moving overseas. Many states are having massive budget problems.
Invading Afghanistan was necessary
Invading Iraq was a probably good preventitive measure
Liberia..who knows
Then what?
Spending alot of money here. I would like to see some cool stuff in return. Maybe a space shuttle replacement, or some kind of training program for prisoners, or better schools. I do believe its time to 'turtle up' and get ahead in technology/domestics. Wars are cool and all but I would like to be able to vacation on the moon one day.
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dont worry we wont go into liberia. we are just sending a couple guys to make it look like we give a damn, but we dont.
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America is in much better economic shape than Europe or Japan - as "bad" as things are in the global economy were doing quite well by all econmic indicators. The factories are moving overseas because it makes economic sense and in the long run its better for everyone. Think of it this way, why arent you lamenting the loss of lets say oh 90% of US farming jobs that simply vanished since 1900? Those people eventually found better and more productive things to do as the farming industry evolved with new technologies and more people were needed in the manufacturing sector. In the past three decades the US economy has been shifting from a goods manufacturing emphasis to a service and intellect economy. You bring up an intersting concept about poor US schools, while basic education up through highschool is obviously lacking in comparsion to others this ignores America's real educational superiority. We have by far the best Universities and colleges both as traditional four year schools and the "JC/community college" system of two year schools. They draw out and train the best american students as well as many of the brightest foreigners. America still kicks ass. The state budget shortfalls are because they spent too much money on account of projected tax revenues that never materialized due to the econimic slowdown since 2000.
The moon landings were only ever faked :rolleyes: :) because of the cold war with the russians so dont get too carried away.
BTW lets all cheer up here, specially frogman, we gotta remember all that stolen iraqi oil that will give a boost to our economy.. :rolleyes:
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Grun is right. our economy is much better then japans right now and slightly better then europes. And the only reason why the dollar is doing so crappy right now is because of this currect administrations Supply Side economic theorys they are trying to put in place. And the Massive unemployeement is caused by them, and greenspans Moneterist policys.
As soon as we get some real economists back in charge things should shape up again pretty quick.
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
As soon as we get some real economists back in charge things should shape up again pretty quick.
Back in charge? Greenspan's been there since 1804.
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Frogm4n: our economy is much better then japans right now...
That may be true. Or not. How do you measure it?
miko
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Yea I wondered a few of those points too. I largely approve of what Bush has done...but really do not get why we are handing out so much $$ to help other countries when local states are running huge deficits, etc....the long and short of it being we could use some of that help back here at home.
Its admirable we try to help others out, sometimes it works....but it would be cool if the local folks back at home made the top of the priority list
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What domestic problems? The way I see it, all these fat people.... What the heck is the gov supposed to do about it? That is their fault for being lazy and not eating right, period, no one else to blame but them selves. Education, again that is the students problem. The best education in the world is available but kids these days are too lazy to seek it out, most likely a byproduct of there fat lazy parents who have set all the wrong examples. This isn't the matrix where you can get any education you want just zapped into your head, it takes work. Something kids these days don't know how to do. Economy? No problem, I have a job, with no danger of losing it. I look at the want ads and there are hundreds of ads for jobs every week and that is just in my town! So what is the problem? Again this is the problem of those who are out of work.
I see it everyday at work. People are born into families that are 2nd and 3rd generation welfare, they don't know any other way. And why should they. We give them all you could ever want. Free housing, free food, free beer and drug money, free health care. Well its free to them, us tax payers are the ones who pay for it. We have taken darwins theory and tossed it out the window and are saving people who shouldn't be saved. They are the cause for the "bad" economy, the fat people and the bad education.
Rant off, sorry
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Originally posted by LePaul
Yea I wondered a few of those points too. I largely approve of what Bush has done...but really do not get why we are handing out so much $$ to help other countries when local states are running huge deficits, etc....the long and short of it being we could use some of that help back here at home.
Its admirable we try to help others out, sometimes it works....but it would be cool if the local folks back at home made the top of the priority list
Right on BRO.
Let's take care of the USA for awhile.
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Originally posted by medicboy
I see it everyday at work. People are born into families that are 2nd and 3rd generation welfare, they don't know any other way. And why should they. We give them all you could ever want. Free housing, free food, free beer and drug money, free health care. Well its free to them, us tax payers are the ones who pay for it. We have taken darwins theory and tossed it out the window and are saving people who shouldn't be saved. They are the cause for the "bad" economy, the fat people and the bad education.
Rant off, sorry
Easy fix do away with welfare!!!
You no workie you no eat!
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I concur - how are lazy/fat people or slacking students the governments problem?
I suppose if you want to point a finger, you could blame the government for always making sure we have more food than we need and handing out grants to promising students to help them pay for higher education.
Horrible times we live in, indeed.
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Originally posted by miko2d
Frogm4n: our economy is much better then japans right now...
That may be true. Or not. How do you measure it?
miko
Don't ask him to put up facts and data! Why, he gets his facts from the 5 min. he spends watching CNN! ;)
On a side note,consumer spending is up .50 %, and if you took Car sales out of that figure, it'd be more like .70 % . This is one of the good signs.
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Thats just my point, if we keep bailing people out they will just keep getting into trouble. We need to let the problems of society just wither on the vine, it will be rough for a while but most will break down and get a job, those that don't.... Well that won't be our problem anymore.
Example: Last night the station I supervise got a call to a nearby town (30 miles away) at 0130 hrs for a man with a cat scratch on his hand! Pulled up to the house to see a new kia car in the driveway. When asked why he needed an ambulance he stated he couldn't afford the gas to drive to the hospital 45 miles away. So we asked him if he couldn't afford about $2 in gas how was he going to afford a $2000 ambulance ride because insurance sure as hell wasnt going to pay for it, his reply was I have medi-cal (california's medicade), its all covered isn't it?
Your tax dollars at work ladies and gentelmen!
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That must have been some cat.
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medicboy: What domestic problems? The way I see it, all these fat people.... What the heck is the gov supposed to do about it?
There is quite a lot that the gov can do - or rather stop doing - to help the situation.
It could stop guaranteeing everyone healthcare once they screw themselves up by the unhealthy lifestyle.
It could stop using government autority through FDA and Dept of agriculture to promote the use and reassure the safety of questionable or outright harmfull products like hormone-pumped meat, soy, homogenised/pasteurised diary products, etc. and let people think and decide for themselves.
It should stop issuing inane suggestion about high-carb diets - or any suggestons at all for that matter.
That is their fault for being lazy and not eating right, period, no one else to blame but them selves.
It may arguably be our fault for being lazy but it is hardly our fault that 50% of black girls and 15% percent of white girls develop sexually at the age of eight - and 3% of black girls, and 1% of white girls, show signs of sexual development as early as the age of three.
How about 5%-20% of young boys diagnosed with ADD/ADHD and treated with Ritalin? You can hardly call them lazy and they are usually not fat yet.
The phyto-estrogens and other bioligically disruptive substances in soy (including over-promoted baby formula), endocrine-disrupting approved chemicals of all kinds and hormones in food have nothing to do with that... Right.
miko
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
dont worry we wont go into liberia. we are just sending a couple guys to make it look like we give a damn, but we dont.
Wrong again buckwheat
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
Grun is right. our economy is much better then japans right now and slightly better then europes. And the only reason why the dollar is doing so crappy right now is because of this currect administrations Supply Side economic theorys they are trying to put in place. And the Massive unemployeement is caused by them, and greenspans Moneterist policys.
As soon as we get some real economists back in charge things should shape up again pretty quick.
You're so lost...you are amusing though.
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Just a thought,
What would happen if we (US) just packed up our troops from everywhere closed down our bases. Stopped helping everyone and anyone in need and took care of our own. We tighten our borders and develop a defense for ICBM's and required trade to be on a level basis. What would happen if we sent no money overseas unless we got something (goods) in return and only sold our food and materials for money (no freebies).
In a word, Isolation.
No more handouts for anyone, what would that mean to the rest of the world.
If we stopped giving away so much we could stop our dependence on oil and the Mid East could do what they want. I think they would be a greater concern of others then us.
Does the rest of the world want this? Do we?
Why not, it seams we are everyone’s bad guy and sooner or later we may as well take our ball and go home.
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Originally posted by Scootter
Just a thought,
What would happen if we (US) just packed up our troops from everywhere closed down our bases. ....
it would be 1930's all over again but worse - maybe too much for the US & her allies to stop this time. At least now we can put out the small fires before they flare into big ones..
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Miko, I think you missed the point, go back and read my post, or maybe it is a language thing. What you are suggesting, stop paying fat-lazy people to sit around, not work and reproduce is exactly what I suggested. Things like mandatory birth controll for people on welfare. If you can't pay for it dont have it!
As far as all the endocrine destroying chem. in our food? I eat mostly what I shoot, I buy very little meat in the market but do sometimes enjoy a good steak. I do also eat fast food from time to time, the whole trick is this little secrete called "exersise". Do it and you won't get fat.
The soy thing in the baby formula? My wifes milk never came in and we raised our son strickly on soy formula, he is a very healthy, happy boy. Has never been to the Dr for more than a checkup. And does not look anything like the michellin man.
Now for the comment on the young kids developing sexualy at a very young age... Man you are scaring me, where did this come from???????
The ritilan thing, I think it is a bunch of lazy parents who think there kids are overactive because they are too lazy to keep up with them. It is all a bunch of crap, and a ploy by the drug companies to sell more ritilan.
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Originally posted by Eagler
it would be 1930's all over again but worse - maybe too much for the US & her allies to stop this time. At least now we can put out the small fires before they flare into big ones..
Sure but we would keep the big ones at bay and let Europe deal with the crap on that side of the pond. If the flare ups were not on our borders why care.
I think its time we let someone else drive the fun bus for a while, this always buying the gas and food and staying sober is getting old
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so what college did you study economics at rude? foxnews.com? explain to me how im lost. And then explain to me how supply side economic policys will benefit the average american?
Miko, your right to. there is really no way to truely measure if japan is worse off then we are. but there is one thing we do know. They are in a period of deflation and we are not as of yet.
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Scootter: What would happen if we (US) just packed up our troops from everywhere closed down our bases. Stopped helping everyone and anyone in need and took care of our own.
If that involves ceasing support to all kinds of oppressive regimes, coercive culture transfer and interference in internecine conflicts, then there would be much fewer people out there intent on hurting us.
medicboy: I eat mostly what I shoot...
I see your "shooting my meat" with my growing vegetables and raise you driving 140 miles to the only farm in lower NY State that is allowed to sell raw milk, bying raw milk from mostly-grass fed Guerncy cows and making sour cream and butter and other stuff out of it. :)
People - especially those not very smart and educated - tend to believe what their government tells them about safety of the products.
It does not matter what you eat "mostly".
You would have to be very well educated to avoid the poisons in the foods that government approves as safe. And if you were educated, the items I mentioned would not be a surprise to you.
Do you know how many products contain soy derivatives and how harmfull they are?
Do you know how homogenisation and pasterisation change properties of milk?
Do you know what "hydrogenation" is and where trans-fats come from if they do not occur in nature?
Do you know that a modern Holstein cow besides being sick and requiring a lot of antibiotics, has naturally elevated hormone levels in milk/meat even if it is organically grown without bGH?
I suggest you start with http://www.westonaprice.org/ and http://www.realmilk.com/ on the nutrition.
As for american girls reaching puberty 3-4 years earlier, just type in "girls early puberty" into your google search and prepare to be scared.
Ritalin is not so much "a bunch of lazy parents who think there kids are overactive" but a bunch of government bureacurats in schools that do not want to deal with boys behaving like boys should and scaring parents into drugging their kids under threat of taking their children away:
Parents throughout the country are being pressured and coerced by schools to give psychiatric drugs to their children. Teachers, school psychologists, and administrators commonly make dire threats about their inability to teach children without medicating them. They sometimes suggest that only medication can stave off a bleak future of delinquency and occupational failure. They even call child protective services to investigate parents for child neglect and they sometimes testify against parents in court.
Still, the number of boys suffering from real disorders has grown drastically.
As for soy formula, I certainly hope your son is going to be OK.
I would recommend you research the issue and watch his thyroid function.
Do a search on the web on soy. Make sure to check New Zealand Ministry of Health Report (http://www.moh.govt.nz/moh.nsf/Files/mohsoy/$file/mohsoy.pdf)
Frogm4n: there is really no way to truely measure if japan is worse off then we are. but there is one thing we do know. They are in a period of deflation and we are not as of yet.
You are confusing "deflation" with "economic decline" and I am pretty sure you are not using the right definition of "deflation" either.
"Deflation" is an increase in a stock of money - which is clearly not the case with Japan.
What they have is a general drop in prices which is confusing the illiterates like rude who cannot tell a yen-expressed value of japanese GDP from the production of real goods.
Sure, the nominal GDP expressed in yen may be falling but the real one is raising at a pretty decent clip, as well as real private income. Their salaries drop but the prices of their products drop even faster as their productivity grows.
Since early 2000, Japanese real private sector GNP has risen 3.5% overall, and by 2.9% per head, for a modest, but perceptible, annual rate of gain of 0.9%.
For its part, U.S. real private sector GNP grew by an almost identical 3.6% between 1999 and 2002, but, with our population rising four-five times faster than Japanese, income per head in the U.S. barely increased at all over the period.
You also have to acknowledge that the fruits of previous Japanese prudence—their vast stock of assets held abroad—bring in a good deal of income too.
In fact Japan subcidises $100 billion of our yearly consumption by selling us products in exchange for dollars that we print and their government take our of circulation with their tax money.
miko
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The problem with alot of the vast holdings overseas is that they were all overvalued when they bought them. But your right once things settle out with overpriced land values and poor investments they still in essence have the 2nd largest economy in the world. It will be interesting to see what happens in the future. latest estimates is that their population will decline to about 80million by 2050.
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Frogm4n: latest estimates is that their population will decline to about 80million by 2050.
They can always start importing 3rd world immigrants and pretend they are growing in numbers like us.
miko
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they already have. large Number of koreans. The problem is that the japanese are very very racist. Especially against other asians.
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Medicboy!
You make alot of sense!!
I remember when i worked on the ambulance.
i would get a call to pick someone up at there house.
Now get this because they had a sore TOE!!!
And you know what?
Almost always there would be 2 or 3 of them sitting on the couch
each with a bucket of KFC And each one fat as a toejam house rat.
So you just know that in the very near future you will be coming back to this house to pick up the fatties because now you must drive them to dialysis 3 times a week:mad:
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
so what college did you study economics at rude? foxnews.com? explain to me how im lost. And then explain to me how supply side economic policys will benefit the average american?
Miko, your right to. there is really no way to truely measure if japan is worse off then we are. but there is one thing we do know. They are in a period of deflation and we are not as of yet.
Look....I don't really expect a liberal or socialist like yourself to ever agree with me....still, I'll make an effort.
I'm not a pure supply sider....however, money in the hands of the government is not my bag. Tax cuts are the basis for supply side economics....your argument is that it has never worked....your defense is Reagans years thru the eighties brought huge deficits....I contend those deficits were born out of unbridled spending by democrats and the military build up which buried the Soviet Union.
Liberals want the Government to provide everything....that course merely destroys the work ethic and breeds a society of tit suckers.
Consider yourself a tit sucker in my book.:)
BTW....higher education guarantees no road to excellence....hard work and ambition along with that education will bring positive results.
Your not on welfare are you?
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Frogm4n: The problem is that the japanese are very very racist. Especially against other asians.
As long as they are not invading anyone, they may be racist all they want and enjoy whatever consequences.
Frogm4n: they still in essence have the 2nd largest economy in the world.
Strange that you'd care about that fact. I'd say that per capita GNP would be more important for a person than what place in the world some arbitrarily determined geographical area occupies.
That is ignoring the fact that GNP is one of the most meaningless and misleading indicators.
The value is subjective. Japanese may be earning less than we do in dollar or yen terms but how about their expences compared to ours.
What you really ought to compare is quality of life and consumption of final products and services that was incured voluntarily. Do you know how many things contribute to the dollar value of our GDP that we would rather not pay for if we could?
Like private weapons and security systems, massive correction system, legal insurance, etc.
I would not bet that japanese or europeans feel like they live much worse than we do, whatever the numbers say.
miko
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Your right rude the deficiet was brought about by the defence spending. the result was the small boom of the mid 80's. Of course you figure out the massive tax cuts that came into play and the deficiet ballooned out of control.
Its healthy not to have a ballance budget as long as it is not to out of control. Of course if you had some higher education in economics you would understand the math that goes into the multipliers in government spending versus tax cuts. As well as why a budget surplus is created due to massive government spending on our infrastructure.
We true liberals do not want the government to provide everything. That dosnt work. We understand that a healthy Mixed-Market economy is the best system to date.( Big business does more to fetter the markets then government regulations ever did. ) You have to understand we believe that education and people having jobs is a public good like the fire department or our roadsystem. as is public health. when people have access to all these things it benefits society as a whole, and it creates a healthy economy.
Try not to confuse communism with mixed market socialism. last i checked it was working pretty good in sweden finland and such.
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i studied in japan for half a year miko. their gdp/ person seemed far higher then ours. Plus i would say they lived happier lives then we do on average. And noone will ever convince me that the living standards in western europe are(especially italy) as low as ours. One underestimate what good cheese beer and bread(food in general) has on the human experience.
I also think our GDP is overestimated through waste, and our inflation and unemployment rates are jokes when you look at how they determine those numbers.
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Frogm4n: And then explain to me how supply side economic policys will benefit the average american?
Supply Side economic would, if it were conducted.
The only way to increase real wages/income is to increase production per person which means to increase productivity per person and the only way of increasing productivity per person - at least untill we start genetic modification of human beings - is to increase the amount of productive capital per person (not just physical capital, intellectual capital such as education and knowlege base too).
In order to accumulate/create capital one needs to promote investment which comes from saving rather than consumption.
When talking about saving and investment I am talking of course about real funding - real goods directed towards labor working on creating capital factors - rather than paper money created from the thin air.
So Bush's talk of stimulating consumption is a polar opposite of the Supply Side - for which his father George Bush the elder coined the term "woodoo economics" when he ran against Reagan. His policies is another matter as well. If increased government spending diverts more resources from productive use in capital creation, what good are tax cuts paid with money printed by federal reserve?
Also, Greenspan's policies are not monetarist in the slightest.
Big business does more to fetter the markets then government regulations ever did.
Name me a case and I will show you that it was government that enabled it to do so. No business or labor union ever shied from using the power of government to restrict the competition. If the government was separate from economy, they would not be able to do so.
I also think our GDP is overestimated through waste, and our inflation and unemployment rates are jokes when you look at how they determine those numbers.
Here is how:
1950: A man earns $100 making widget, a woman stays home, raises 4 children, cooks dinner.
GNP is $100. One widget and 4 good children are produced.
2000: A man earns $100 making a widget. A woman earns $100 making a widget. She buys the same dinner for $50 and pays babysitter to raise her 2 children another $50. ($300 now)
A government bureaucrat administers new regulations for the salary of $100.
An accountant and a layer are employed by the widget producer to help deal with the new government regulations for 2x$100.
A correction officer is employed for $100 prividung valuable services of guarding a fellow that is serving time for smoking pot which became a crime since 1950.
A welfare caseworker is employed for $100 - her work is counted as a service too.
GNP is $800 (forget inflation for a while). Two widgets and 2 screwed up children are produced.
Are we really 8 times better off? Twice as well? Worse? You tell me.
miko
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Name me a case
enron
any oligopoly or monopoly
in a market a firms profits tend towards zero overtime. and thus the consumer benefits. Big business undermines this any chance they can get.
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Wow.
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
in a market a firms profits tend towards zero overtime. and thus the consumer benefits. Big business undermines this any chance they can get.
Thats not really true. That only happends in long term perfect competition - which really only exists in theory for the most part. It is of cours a n ice "ideal" and it's benefits are what drive us towards protecting ;) competition.
However your notion that "Big" business undermines it at every cahnce is pretty laughable. For example any small greek seafood restaurant violates the conditions of perfect compettion by charging too much and producing too little output at various times both in short and long run. :) Basically I'm suggesting you lay of the left wing "Big" business propaganda... :)
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Originally posted by Rude
Look....I don't really expect a liberal or socialist like yourself to ever agree with me....still, I'll make an effort.
I'm not a pure supply sider....however, money in the hands of the government is not my bag. Tax cuts are the basis for supply side economics....your argument is that it has never worked....your defense is Reagans years thru the eighties brought huge deficits....I contend those deficits were born out of unbridled spending by democrats and the military build up which buried the Soviet Union.
Liberals want the Government to provide everything....that course merely destroys the work ethic and breeds a society of tit suckers.
Consider yourself a tit sucker in my book.:)
BTW....higher education guarantees no road to excellence....hard work and ambition along with that education will bring positive results.
Your not on welfare are you?
That's one of the best summaries I've read in a long time. Pure genius ;)
But Rude, there are people who will argue to their dying breath that the US Gov't owes them. The only thing the Dems do is advocate class envy.
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Frogm4n: enron
False. Enron could do what they did only in the cooperation with all kind of government entities in the conditins that were not a free market but a heavily regulated environment.
Sure, in a free market companies can fail - including for the reasons of fraud. But the only people suffering financial loss would be the owners/shareholders of the company and those who took risk by loaning it money.
any oligopoly or monopoly
Would you care to name one that does not owe it's existence to the government-granted privilege and government-imposed restriction on it's competition?
in a market a firms profits tend towards zero overtime. and thus the consumer benefits.
In theoretical case of ERE - sure. But in real world innovation and change in consumer preferences makes sure that profits (and losses) are always present.
Big business undermines this any chance they can get.
But it can only do so if the competition is artificially restricted by the government.
miko