Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: muckmaw on July 15, 2003, 01:00:04 PM
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In my spare time, I've been messing around with America's Army.
They have an interesting way of dealing with Killshooter/Team killers.
If you shoot another friendly, you lose an honor point. You start with 10 Honor points, and if you do not have 10, you cannot play in many servers until you rebuild that point. (I have yet to figure out how to do this.)
Anyway, what about a similar system in AH?
I think this has been brought up before, but I'm not sure.
Shoot and damage a friendly, lose an honor point. Lose enough and your forced to be grounded for 24 hours, or can only fly goons, or something. Sorta like doing time in the penalty box. Lose enough Honor points, and your grounded for a tour.
Just thinking out loud here.
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Oh my cod !!! ... things must be REALLY SLOW at the office.
You just can't prevent yourself from stirring the pot or beating the dead horse on these types of days.
;) :p
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I think your on to something....may I?
If you shoot or damage a friendly and you're a strat player, then you must fly a Zeke for a cumulative 24hr period.
If you shoot or damage a friendly and you're a furballer, then you must fly a B-17 for a cumulative 24hr period.
Now the above has some serious teeth:)
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Originally posted by SlapShot
Oh my cod !!! ... things must be REALLY SLOW at the office.
You just can't prevent yourself from stirring the pot or beating the dead horse on these types of days.
;) :p
What are you talking about?
I'm playing America's Army, and I had an idea. So it's been done? It's been mentioned?
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It's a good idea MM...
Unfortunately, at least half the people here (and all the people at HTC that matter) are uninterested in "fixing" the killshooter system because "it's not broken."
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MAW on MAW
Fight!
Fight!
Fight!
Fight!
Fight!
blech.
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
It's a good idea MM...
Unfortunately, at least half the people here (and all the people at HTC that matter) are uninterested in "fixing" the killshooter system because "it's not broken."
Honestly, it does not bother me much. I think I've had 2 killshooter incidents in my life. I have just seen many complain about it, and thought I would offer a suggestion.
Apparently, this topic has been discussed ad nauseum, and no solution was found.
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I get truly annoyed with it whenever it happens... especially when a "friendly" flys through my aircraft and right into my line of fire.
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Originally posted by Rude
I think your on to something....may I?
If you shoot or damage a friendly and you're a strat player, then you must fly a Zeke for a cumulative 24hr period.
If you shoot or damage a friendly and you're a furballer, then you must fly a B-17 for a cumulative 24hr period.
Now the above has some serious teeth:)
Rude ...
Lazs ain't gonna go for that. He must run into killshooter more than most cause he is always shooting over someone's shoulder tryin to steal the kill.
Can you see him in a buff ... err ... I mean "fluff".
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
Unfortunately, at least half the people here (and all the people at HTC that matter) are uninterested in "fixing" the killshooter system because "it's not broken."
BINGO!
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
BINGO!
-- Todd/Leviathn
It's a shame... really. There are other options, but we've never tried another (at least not in recent memory).
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Can't let this dead horse be dragged by again without giving it another kick of my own, for Hate's sake. Damn thing didn't die hard enough ;) So, those of you who've closed your minds to the truth, feel free to tune out at this point. For the rest.....
Killshooter sucks compared to every plausible alternative. This is because the penalties of killshooter usually fall hardest on the least deserving of punishment, and fear of these penalties cramps the style of all the honest pilots while doing absolutely nothing to discourage the problem children. As such, killshooter is not fair by any stretch of the imagination, nor is it even a reasonable solution.
Friendly fire usually doesn't come into play except when somebody is trying to steal a kill. Who's the badguy in that situation? The honest guy who did all the work bleeding the nme down and is now somewhat slow himself, or the fast jerk swooping in to steal the easy kill? But Killshooter allows the interloper complete freedom to steal the kill, while denying the guy who did all the work his just reward. Or say you've braved the defensive fire and have slowed a buff formation by crippling the leader, and then some jerk swoops in and kills them all while you're dodging bullets.
It is thus obvious that Killshooter actually ENCOURAGES kill-stealing behavior. Why blow your E, risk damage, or otherwise inconvenience yourself when there's such a good chance of it being all for nothing? Rather, if you want kills, you should play the jerk, letting other guys do the work, then snap up the spoils yourself.
If the real world used the same logic as Killshooter in its laws, the following things would happen:
- You spend a lot of time and effort writing a book. The night before you mail the manuscript to the publisher, somebody steals it off your desk and publishes it himself, and the courts think this is perfectly OK.
- You're stopped at an intersection and your light turns green. You start across and get broadsided by some jerk running the red light. But he gets off scot-free because he had more E, which gives him the right to bowl you over, and you're stuck with the damage.
Granted, there needs to be something in place to discourage the grief fragging of friendlies. However, I am of the firm opinion that the threat posed by grief fragging is FAR less than enough to warrant the heavy-handed coercion of Killshooter. As was proved by DOS AW, grief fragging can be controlled by a PNG system, something rather like what MuckMAW found in A'sA. Such as system lays a much lighter burden on the honest pilots who make up the vast bulk of the population, while reserving its punishments almost exclusively for the guilty.
Killshooter sucks.
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I don't want to dogfight the red guy in front of me AND the three green love muffines firing over my shoulder.
Killshooter works great.
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Planetside has pretty much the same griefer system as America's Army and it works quite well and it has pretty much curtailed any intentional griefing by little llamas.
As for the killshooter we have in AH, it really doesn't bother me all that much since I think I've only died a grand total of 2-3 times from it and those came when I intentionally shot at my squad mate when we were screwing around in a mock duel. But I do think they are better alternatives and one of them is the PNG system we used to have in AW. Shoot two friendlies down in a 24 hour period and you had your ammo taken away for 24 hours. For every friendly you kill beyond the 2 limit, it was an additional 24 hour PNG (Persona Non Grata) for each kill. You would still be able to fly while you were PNG but you couldn't carry any ammo or bombs and were pretty much delegated to goon duty.
Ack-Ack
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America's army is a really great game. IMO it is a masterpiece in realism. By far the most realistic FPS i have seen to date. If troops ever get implemented into AH, would like to see them use same system weapons and CEM systtem as Americas army. What is your name in the game?
Okay anyway, what I posted this reply to say...
The new court martial system in TOD will hopefully be similiar to this. If you kill a friendly, you will get a court martial. in america's army, if you get too many ROE points (Rules of engagement points, you do not want them) you get sent to jail and is therefore kicked out of the game. In AH2, maybe if you exceed the friendly kill limit you get sent to jail or something:confused:
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My handle is...well....MuckMAW.
I'm not very creative.
I'd love to meet up with some of you in Americas Army, but I've no idea how.
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The answer to the question is no.
Next question ?
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Killshooter does several things that no other solution ever has.
It works in both the 'control infantile pre-pubesant urges to ruin others fun' and it keeps in check the '10 weenies in a row' firing at 1 NME without hesitation not only trying to steal kills THROUGH friendlies, but making the poor chasee have zero chance to survive.
It also keeps a group from collectively 'spending' a few BAD MARKS each to totally screw with a guy for hours on end.
And just who wants to hear the whines when some dildo creates 10 accounts and proceeds to kill every friendly perk plane in sight?
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If you get killshootered more than once a month, you are probably doing a little too much vulching and not enough actual fighting....or you are just way too damned unlucky.
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Alf....well said.
Don't misunderstand me...killshooter has some problems. What I have suggested (more than once :)) is that no matter what, the first 2 hits do no damage. This would, at least, give you an opportunity to let up off the trigger before you blow up. As for the newbies that refuse to RTFM...let 'em blow up (often :D).
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Not a bad idea NB. I like it.
Those first two are the ones that remove my wing every time.
On a side note I wish my bullets hitting the con were as lethal as killshooter bullets.
Dem b som bolets..
Bolets wit a thud.
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I don't think turning off Killshooter at all is a very good idea. Tone it down a bit maybe so you don't accidentally blow your own tail off by single pinging friendly aircraft with a freekin .303 maybe, but....
We are engaged in a big game... and there are many people involved. It's a simple case of a very minor few dip****s causing a very big "guard" against stupidity. Killshooter is a necessary evil.
Ever try running a NASCAR race on a Papyrus Loop server? If not, you'll get the idea real quick. Never fails theres that one jackball who's goal is to wreck the race for everyone else. Same would happen in AH.
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Here's an idea: The way killshooter works now, all the damage that you do to the enemy plane is instantly doled out to one single point on your plane. Why not match the two? If you spread a couple bullets along a friendly's wing, why not have the damage that would have happened to him happen to you? Much less likely to instantly kill the offending party, but very likely to cause enough damage to make him disengage.
Yes, a dweeb can still fly in front of you and you'll still pay for it, but maybe you'll still be able to rtb instead of spiraling to the ground with only one wing.
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Terrible idea...
often, the best pilots are closest behind a chased enemy waiting for the right moment to kill. And the worst or most greedy pilots are spraying out of the third row.
You would read a lot of tirades of hate on countrychanel.
Ecke
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nb's isea is best but... no killshooter and honor points is good too... that means I could shoot down 9 of our own bombers a day.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
nb's isea is best but... no killshooter and honor points is good too... that means I could shoot down 9 of our own bombers a day.
lazs
rofl
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How about a blackout or similar when 2 or 4 pings- no damage to friendly, pilot would most likely stop firing trying not to auger....
If continue firing then Killshooter in effect?
NwBie
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kill shooter was off in ct a couple of weeks ago, it was hell. stupid noobs in field guns vulchin friendlys. did make for some interesting threads on the board.
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Instead of killshooter, how about one of these alternatives (in all of the below, the friendly target take no damage):
1) When you hit a friendly, the damage value of your shot is subtracted from your perk points for your ride type (fighter/bomber/vehicle). When your perk points go to zero, any additional damage to friendlies is accumulated as the number of minutes that have to elapse before you are allowed to launch in a plane or vehicle again (you can still join a multi-place plane as a gunner). An arena-setting scale factor would be used to adjust how fast friendly-fragging eats your perks.
2) I don't know if the host has enough data to be able to tell which 'burst' of fire a round came from, but if it's possible, then when you hit a friendly, all damage inflicted by you on enemy aircraft/vehicles for five seconds on either side of hitting the friendly will be credited as having been inflicted by the person you hit for determining kill credit. This would discourage shooting past people to get kills, because if you tagged the person you were shooting past with even one round, all the damage you do would go to their credit for getting the kill.
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Originally posted by mjolnir
Here's an idea: The way killshooter works now, all the damage that you do to the enemy plane is instantly doled out to one single point on your plane.
My understanding is that the real problem is the fact that there isn't a 'generic' damage model for kill shooter. When you shoot an enemy plane, the program knows where to put the damage (lag issues aside :D). With killshooter, it only works if you are shooting a friendly in the same plane as you are flying. I have about given up trying to help guys in bombers for this reason. One or two hits on a friendly bomber's tail is a sure fire death warrant :(.
I do know that HT knows about all of this. I also know that making changes to the killshooter system are a low priority (at least currently). Maybe after AH2 :).
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I think it is a good system. Like Ack Ack said, it only happens a few times a year (granted, when it does happen it is annoying as heck).
Just imagine if there was no killshooter or if the shootee did recieve some damage. you would get a ton of punks on the 2 week free trial doing nothing but parking an ostie on his own runway and vulching every friendly who wants to take off. Or even worse, spies changing sides and doing the same thing at an airbase to make way for an attack.
I am sure there is a better system, but the one we have now is necessary and adequate.
Tapakeg