Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: davidpt40 on July 16, 2003, 05:00:00 AM
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Heres one that has saved me many times-
I usually fly the P51 or F4U. Often times I lose airspeed and altitude and end up fighting superior turning aircraft on the deck. Through scissoring I can often times get firing solutions, but that can put me into a HO situation.
When I see the other aircraft about to fire on me, if I am able to get below his altitude (this is on the deck mind you), it will cause him to either abort his attack or make him point his nose down to get me in his gunsight. This maneuver has never failed me. I quite often get maneuver kills with it, and the majority of the time my opponent cannot get a gun solution on me.
The next is a classic but I have been getting many kills with it lately; the Zoom climb (works best in P51).
With a high airspeed, entice a co-alt (or lesser) aircraft to pursue you. When he is about 1.5k behind you, enter into a 90 degree climb. Don't pull too many Gs or you will lose too much airspeed. As you near the apex of the climb, and airspeed is around 100, pop flaps and get your nose pointing down. Usually the enemy aircraft is so intent on getting a gun solution on you he will stall and you can fill him full of lead.
Feel free to post any maneuvers that you find handy. I have yet to find a maneuver that works well when you are on auto-climb and unexpectedly find a bandit at d300 on your 6.
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Ahhh.. the second one is my favorite when I'm the one behind.
When I see they go for a loop or vertical maneuver, I just level up or go to shallow climb and at the right moment, pull up to shoot up the slow vertical target :D
If I can't make it in time to do that, then I simply evade his dive, let him go past and then get behind him.
He don't either have enough energy to run by diving after hes stalled, while I've reserved the E... more often than not, he can't accerlate fast enough.
Either ways, that makes up for a juicy target
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flew a 190a5 yesterday
after killing 2 planes i was low on the deck and was bounced by a p51
i looked for a nice hill pointed the nose on her and started barrel rolling, pulled over the hill in the last second
then looked back to see the boom :D :cool:
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Originally posted by davidpt40
The next is a classic but I have been getting many kills with it lately; the Zoom climb (works best in P51).
U've ever been in a 109? ;) :)
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I remember seeing an episode of Wings where a P51 pilot tells of killing a 109 using this exact maneuver. However he said the 109 stalled mere seconds before him and the two aircraft were so close he could clearly see the German pilots face and the huge 30mm cannon.
Now heres an interesting question- Did the real life P51 lose the thrust from the radiative exhaust effect in a stall? If so, thats nearly 25% thrust.
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Originally posted by davidpt40
I remember seeing an episode of Wings where a P51 pilot tells of killing a 109 using this exact maneuver. However he said the 109 stalled mere seconds before him and the two aircraft were so close he could clearly see the German pilots face and the huge 30mm cannon.
Now heres an interesting question- Did the real life P51 lose the thrust from the radiative exhaust effect in a stall? If so, thats nearly 25% thrust. [/QUOTE
ahh 25% thrust from the radiative exhaust is a bit (way) much.
Do you realize what the pounds of thrust would be at 25% of the thrust of a full song Merlin would be. Damn why were jets ever invented. I read that the thrust at cruse offset the radiator drag (no small feet) but never 25% total thrust.
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Originally posted by davidpt40
I remember seeing an episode of Wings where a P51 pilot tells of killing a 109 using this exact maneuver. However he said the 109 stalled mere seconds before him and the two aircraft were so close he could clearly see the German pilots face and the huge 30mm cannon.
Sounds like Clarence "Bud" Anderson's story from "To Fly and Fight"
This is what I see all these years later. If I were the sort to be troubled with nightmares, this is what would shock me awake. I am in this steep climb, pulling the stick into my navel, making it steeper, steeper . . . and I am looking back down, over my shoulder, at this classic gray Me 109 with black crosses that is pulling up, too, steeper, steeper, the pilot trying to get his nose up just a little bit more and bring me into his sights.
There is nothing distinctive about the aircraft, no fancy markings, nothing to identify it as the plane of an ace, as one of the "dreaded yellow-noses" like you see in the movies. Some of them did that, I know, but I never saw one. And in any event, all of their aces weren't flamboyant types who splashed paint on their airplanes to show who they were. I suppose I could go look it up in the archives. There's the chance I could find him in some gruppe's log book, having flown on this particular day, in this particular place, a few miles northwest of the French town of Strasbourg that sits on the Rhine. There are fellows who've done that, gone back and looked up their opponents. I never have. I never saw any point.
He was someone who was trying to kill me, is all.
So I'm looking back, almost straight down now, and I can see this 20-millimeter cannon sticking through the middle of the fighter's propeller hub. In the theater of my memory, it is enormous. An elephant gun. And that isn't far wrong. It is a gun designed to bring down a bomber, one that fires shells as long as your hand, shells that explode and tear big holes in metal. It is the single most frightening thing I have seen in my life, then and now.
But I'm too busy to be frightened. Later on, you might sit back and perspire about it, maybe 40-50 years later, say, sitting on your porch 7,000 miles away, but while it is happening you are just too damn busy. And I am extremely busy up here, hanging by my propeller, going almost straight up, full emergency power, which a Mustang could do for only so long before losing speed, shuddering, stalling, and falling back down; and I am thinking that if the Mustang stalls before the Messerschmitt stalls, I have had it.
I look back, and I can see that he's shuddering, on the verge of a stall. He hasn't been able to get his nose up enough, hasn't been able to bring that big gun to bear. Almost, but not quite. I'm a fallen-down-dead man almost, but not quite. His nose begins dropping just as my airplane, too, begins shuddering. He stalls a second or two before I stall, drops away before I do.
Good old Mustang.
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had to look it up scotter. The Mustangs radiator was like a jet, but mainly just helped to compensate for drag.
the case of the Mustang, the air duct pumping system at full speed at 25,000 feet was processing some 500 cubic feet of air per second, and discharge speed of the outlet was between 500 and 600 feet per second relative to the airplane. This air jet counteracted much of the radiator drag and had the effect of offsetting most of the total cooling drag. To offer some approximate numbers, the full power propeller thrust was about 1,000 pounds and the radiator drag (gross) was about 400 pounds, but the momentum recovery was some 350 pounds of compensating thrust--for a net cooling drag of only some 3% of the thrust of the propeller.
Thanks for posting that story alpo. Did Anderson kill the 109? Seems like I remember him saying he did.
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Yes. He got the 109. Bud Anderson was only hit once in a Mustang, and that was by groundfire that left a hole as big as a shilling, which is what the ground crew used to patch the hole.
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Originally posted by gofaster
that was by groundfire that left a hole as big as a shilling, which is what the ground crew used to patch the hole.
As opposed to a hole as big as a Shill, which would have ended his day.
-Sik
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ALT-F4 seems to be working very well for alot of people lately.
...-Gixer
-Hells Angels-
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Originally posted by Sikboy
As opposed to a hole as big as a Shill, which would have ended his day.
-Sik
Yeah, especially if it was me.
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I find the P47's do this well too - especially the D11 provided you have more E than your opponent. It has excellent low speed handling and due to it's weight, very good E retention.
Defensively, I find the best manuever is the one that takes your opponents pip off your plane and keeps it there.
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What in the HELLS is that thing you have for an avatar, runny? a booger?
Happy 100th
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I have several moves which i use. My 'bag of tricks' are made up of many i have read about, or I have invented and later found descriptions that cosely match what i found out myself.
Theres nothing more satisfying than inventing a move and finding out an ace used the same maneuver in the war.
One Very usefull move for 190s when around 5k and are attacked by a faster opponent from behind.
As the enemy closes to around 800 yards roll inverted and power dive vertically toward the ground. Spiral dive at high speed (but try not to exceed your best rolling speed) I use either a scissor like movement or i touch in some rudder and ailerons to sort of corkscrew my way down.
If your attacker is a LA7 or spitfire, a p51 or typhoon, they all suffer from a slower roll than the 190 and this is your weapon.
As you both scream toward the ground he will undoutedly be shooting at you. Aim your 190s nose directly for the ground and try to get your attacker into an overspeed dive which will start to lock up his roll capability.At the last moment use a Hard roll with a kick of full rudder to help you around, looking back you roll until your enemy appears to be inverted and pull out of the dive at the last moment.
Your attacker, if you have judged it right, will try to match your course and discover he cannot match the roll and therefore has to pull out before you and as you are both inverted 90 degrees this means he pulls out in a completely wrong direction.
Use this time to either extend and escape or if you have caused the other player to overjudge his aircraft's performance theres a chance he will either auger on his pull out or he over rolls and mushes his aircraft (losing lots of E) you can go into a clean low G loop over maintaining your speed. They may try to loop also and go for a HO and if you are lucky they will try for an early solution and pull hard and lose speed. You can then either go for the HO or better still use your superior loop exit speed to convert to altitude again if you can see the enemy aircraft has lost its speed and energy putting you in a position of advantage for a drop in attack.
This method can also be used against mountains and canyon walls.
A rather dangerous, but often last chance evasive for 190a5s when i have a enemy chasing me down when im low is to go flat out full wep then zoom climb at a shallow angle untill i can judge im at just the right height. I throttle back to about a 3rd. Kick in hard rudder and aileron, go inverted in a yawing/sliding nose down dive for a reversal , once all energy and speed is reduced enough i often whack on Flaps and head for the ground , hit wep and dive (if needed, TIP: :o they do get a snap shot oppertunity here) then pull out in the oppersite direction to where i was headed when i begin the move.Often im scraping the grassblades!! :) This can shake off a pursuer if you give them no time to react. On the slightangle zoom climb, this often makes the guy behind you SALIVATE with greed. They think 'Lovely , hes climbing ill close in and kill him',this often means as you climb they choose to go level to close the distance, then just as they get their distance right for a pull up snap shot solution, you suddenly snap roll inverted and slide out of plane, tuck under them and break in the oppersite direction.
The greedy player will try to shoot you, They do get the chance for a snap shot , but they often like the idea of maintaining their speed as they do it which means they will not be able to match your maneuver without hitting the ground or reducing their speed in a split second enough to follow you.If they are good and follow you into the dive you again must use your roll and pick your exit according to the direction your enemy is facing (usually matching your curve) you pick the exit they will find hardest to match. deception-moves like part rolls or using rudder to point your nose the wrong way at the start of maneuvers will often be enough to confuse your attacker.This may only claim you enough time for a single HO or a little more time to get to a safe area but obviously with cannons this one chance is often enough or a few seconds can get you to a friendly countrymens protection.
Remember some arent greedy though! :D
I have 'invented' a set of 'moves' in the 190 which I would guess many others have done the same, havent read it in any books though so thats one thing im surprised by and i must say i havent had it used on me yet. I call it 'my moves' because its such a nice set moves!! its partly a trick but it has all the right affects on your attacker :D hehe
Im not revealing it to the masses though as I think some moves should be kept a bit quiet :) if we all read it it wont keep on working!! hehe .
the main thing is be unpredictable. Do exactly what you think is the last thing your attacker would think you would do.
Dont always be ready to to start your moves early.That last second is where you want to make your attacker make HIS decisions. I must say though I also agree with the recommendation that says If you are attacked turn to meet the attacker.Aggresive is GOOD :)
good thread though, great for a newbie.
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Hazed,
Problem with that downwards scissor move is you'll loose tremendous amount of E and if the enemy is any smart, he remains at altitude and then hes way above you and you didn't even benefit from the altitudes E (since you lost E with the spiral, which the enemy doesn't have to do when coming down on you), like he will, when he decides to dive on you.
Altitude is life - and that doesnt mean orbiting at 30,000ft, but using the altitude you have, the best you can.
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I guess gettign off topic....But the alt is life stuff I have always taken to ideally mean having 2 to 3k over your enemy. I don't know where I read that, I think in "the" book. (This is to also say, as I understand it, that too much alt is bad ACM too)
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Originally posted by davidpt40
Thanks for posting that story alpo. Did Anderson kill the 109? Seems like I remember him saying he did.
Yeah, he did. The 109 stalled and fell out, Anderson rolled over for the gun solution.
Bud Anderson told that story at the Indy AW Con in 2000, where he was a guest speaker at the banquet - it was really cool, he was animated as he told it, using his hands to represent the positions of the planes, holding the room in silence and awe.
What was coolest about it was watching the large number of sim pilots sitting there, giving each other little side glances and nods of recognition, silently mouthing the words "rope a dope" at each other - he told a few of us later in conversation that it was the first time he'd told the story to a room full of people who seemed to totally understand what he meant :)
culero
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An off-topic but related item:
(http://home.rgv.rr.com/casamyers/Mouse-Bud.jpg)
That's Bud Anderson cutting it up with Robert Shaw (yeah, that Robert Shaw) at that same AW Con in Indy.
culero (wishes he coulda made the ongoing AH Indy Con)
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I highly recomend using the positive G blackout to your advantage. Start a dive to gather plenty of speed as your enemy follows. At D1000-600 begin the hard turn or loop to get your enemy hooked. Crank the turn after a moment to induce the blackout. After a count of 2 or so, change directions of the turn or loop by 45 degrees minimum, and release the turn to figure out where the bugger is. Escape, or find the poor bastard lower than you and go for him.
This tactic works particularly well against compressible German planes because their pilots usually are tentative/cautious in the initial dive which buys you a teensy bit of time to set the trick up.
This is definitely not the best low altitude tactic unless: #1 you're in a A6M, FM2/F4F, hurricane or some other uber turner #2 during the blackout you know exactly where mother earth is and you avoid her.
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The best move you can possibly have is never allow anyone to gain your 6 within 2k range unnoticed.
I can't think of any faster way to get smacked than maneuvering without vision. Your enemy need only set up a relaxed lag pursuit and you will find yourself without E or options when you ease off the back pressure.
Wing up with a guy who never seems to die, but kills everything he engages. Watch what he does and learn from it. Then, above all else, concentrate on you SA, because that, more than any other aspect of the game, will make the biggest difference in your results.
My regards,
Widewing
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here's a maneuver that will ALWAYS save your life:
Whenever you see a con, press Enter three times!!!
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The biggest problem I see here is it highlights just how pitiful the state of affairs in the MA has gone. This is certainly NOT ment to be a rip on davidpt40 or the thread topic. However niether of the points mentioned is actually a "move" of any kind. Realistically only a total newbie will consistantly fall for either ploy.
Obviously getting under an impending HO is a good idea...but any decent stick is going to be going up vs a slow (assuming since scissors mentioned) pony on the deck. Absolutely no reason to HO a dying pony....also a scissors will normally result in front quarter shots not a true HO. Pony in the right hands is actually an excellent dogfighter if you can keep fight a bit in the vertical to keep the flaps in play. Scissor really only comes into play vs a higher E bogie. To get HO's you almost have to be in a "two circle" fight down low.
The Bud Anderson quote is started mid point if I remember right. A good rope requires some type of setup against an experienced pilot. Rarely will an experienced stick follow you up (yes it does happen) to a stall. Obviously we have a great help since we have range counters vs real life. A good pilot will know if he has the E to overtake you and catch you like a hanging curve 90% of the time.
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Ouch Humble... I think many of us recognized the same points you made but we decided not to say anything. Why curb a young cub's enthusiasm?
Seemed to me that a realtively new guy learned a couple of ways to get kills and was just expressing his joy. Your disclaimer doesn't really dampen your words.... they were much better left unsaid.
Steve
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Theres nothing wrong with enjoying yourself and throwing caution to the wind now and then fariz :)
Don you ever take off when its being vulched and try to take a few with you ? or do reaally silly things like fly through a hanger when an enemy plane is 300 yards off your 6 to make them laugh? :).
I like to play seriously now and then , play to survive as it were. But I also like to just play now and then. I just head to enemy expecting to get bounced and practice some tricks. Its fun to mess around too,
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Originally posted by culero
Yeah, he did. The 109 stalled and fell out, Anderson rolled over for the gun solution.
Bud Anderson told that story at the Indy AW Con in 2000, where he was a guest speaker at the banquet - it was really cool, he was animated as he told it, using his hands to represent the positions of the planes, holding the room in silence and awe.
What was coolest about it was watching the large number of sim pilots sitting there, giving each other little side glances and nods of recognition, silently mouthing the words "rope a dope" at each other - he told a few of us later in conversation that it was the first time he'd told the story to a room full of people who seemed to totally understand what he meant :)
culero
Wasn't he also at the '98 Con in SF? Or maybe I'm getting old that it was at the '98 WB Con I saw him at.
Ack-Ack
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Originally posted by corrupto
I highly recomend using the positive G blackout to your advantage. Start a dive to gather plenty of speed as your enemy follows. At D1000-600 begin the hard turn or loop to get your enemy hooked. Crank the turn after a moment to induce the blackout. After a count of 2 or so, change directions of the turn or loop by 45 degrees minimum, and release the turn to figure out where the bugger is. Escape, or find the poor bastard lower than you and go for him.
This tactic works particularly well against compressible German planes because their pilots usually are tentative/cautious in the initial dive which buys you a teensy bit of time to set the trick up.
This is definitely not the best low altitude tactic unless: #1 you're in a A6M, FM2/F4F, hurricane or some other uber turner #2 during the blackout you know exactly where mother earth is and you avoid her.
The problem with that one is if the chasing plane recognizes what you're about to do (and most good veteran pilots will) and they just hang back and wait until you pull into that hard G maneuver and blast you out of the sky or they just simply level out while you dive and gain the altitude advantage and then just dive on you at leisure until you're dead.
Ack-Ack
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Originally posted by humble
Rarely will an experienced stick follow you up (yes it does happen) to a stall. Obviously we have a great help since we have range counters vs real life. A good pilot will know if he has the E to overtake you and catch you like a hanging curve 90% of the time.
It happens far more than you realize. The majority of my kills are from various Rope-A-Dweeb maneuvers, while some of them are newbies and less skilled players, a surprising large amount of them are veteran players that should know better.
Ack-Ack
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no need for ACM if you want to preserve your virtual life :
[list=1]
- log on
- look at number
- 65 for the knit (your country)
- 85 for the rook
- 136 for the bishes
- 5 fields left
- Dar is down
- All strats are in enemy territory
- Log off
[/list=1]
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I understand your feelings Straffo, I have a couple friends that I play paintball with. Like you, they won't play unless they have a clear numerical advantage. Like you, they will pack their bags and go home. I don't mind though, I don't like playing w/ whiners anyway.
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Originally posted by Steve
I understand your feelings Straffo, I have a couple friends that I play paintball with. Like you, they won't play unless they have a clear numerical advantage. Like you, they will pack their bags and go home. I don't mind though, I don't like playing w/ whiners anyway.
Someone pissed in your corn-flakes this morning ?
Or are you burn out ?
I don't mind though, I don't like playing w/ P-51D alt monkey anyway.
See I can be insulting too with ease.
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So the right thing to do Steve is not to make a comment?? Truthfully I love anyone who will take a pony down to the deck...an awful lot of ponies dont seem very comfortable under 20k or so:).
As for dampening someones joy for the game I certainly hope not. My goal was/is to help that learning curve along in some small way.
ack-ack...truthfully we all get roped from time to time...but relying on a rope as an "opener" isn't a good idea...least from my perspective. I'd much rather teach a "long" merge to a rookie, he'll catch a lot more guys clawing back up into him off the merge and be able to use it as a building block for quality e fighting ACM. I've run into you enough to know that you normally incorporate the rope as a "mid-game" move in the 38...go around a few times...assess E state...initiate a move or two to scrub a bit off then use the great acc in the 38 to claw up...either you get a rope or the high ground....worst thing in the world vs a good 38 driver is looking at the tail while plane is going up...good sign the E battle is over:)
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For some folks, alt-f4 works best.