Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: humble on May 12, 2001, 01:45:00 AM
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Got 3 clips from today.
1st is a quickie hog clip....far as I'm concerned hilights everything I think is wrong with "quakeAH". I honestly do not see how this merge is possible....hog comes in from hi rolls inverted for a shot passes behind level to slightly nosedown into a low yoyo cold side lag....faster than I can rev my nose up 190 back into him.
I'm guessing a low E hog could do this....so if he chopped and low E maybe...but he's level above me and clearly diving in on merge.
2nd clip...everyting AH is and should be...nice pony vs yak fight....every move makes some logical sense and fight goes the way it should....right up till I dig a new swimming pool (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)...comments from anyone on improvement greaty appreciated.
3rd clip
A pony vs nikki fight. Nikki is pos-e at start. I watch him make what I consider to be serious ACM errors repeatedly with no ill effects at all. Again we're back to "quakeAH". The nikki is not that fast and I'm at a loss to explain the flight path on the overshoots.
If your that fast....you cant turn that tight...if you turn that tight you cant carry that much thru the manuver. If I'm wrong here please enlighten me.
Absolutely no neg or slight is intended to anyone who happens to be named in these clips. We're all playing the same game...it's the underlying ACM/flight model I'm trying to understand.
I do not know how to post a clip so email me or drop a request on this thread and I'll sens you a zipfile. Please post replies here, I'd like an open forum instead of private responses.
Thanx
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email the clips to me at jayb@exmsft.com and I will put them up where they can be downloaded.
Hooligan
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I'd like to see these. exile@simladder.com
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Hooligan,
clips got returned I'll try again. Exile, you should have em....all comments critiques welcome...please post em here instead of email....thanx
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The films are posted at:
http://www.lvcm.com/jayb/fil74.zip (http://www.lvcm.com/jayb/fil74.zip)
I only looked at the F4U film (film6). This is what I see.
On the merge the F4U is coming in higher than you with a lot of smash. After it passes it pulls back toward you in a right hand turn. You turn left about 90 degrees (you start at about 300IAS going N). At this point both the F4U and you are turning in towards each other, and the F4U still has some E advantage over you. Range numbers are still increasing so you both have turned about 90 degrees and are still separating slightly. At this point, if you would have continued turning left (and the F4U continued right) you would have been presented with another HO opportunity. Instead you turn 90 degrees right back to North and your final speed is about 200IAS. The F4U continues his right hand turn and ends up on your tail and kills you. Both of you turned about 180 degrees, his was 180 right and yours was 90 left followed by 90 right. The F4U started with more smash and still had more smash after the turns.
Hooligan
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I just watched the 3 films, and I totally agree with Hooligan about the Hog clip. You might as well of sawed off your own tail with a hacksaw. The hog had more E to start with coming from a higher alt (remember, they are heavy birds too), and the second turn you made gave him a great shot. I might have tried to continue the first turn another 90 degrees and extended for a little alt, making the hog come around the full 360 lower than you. (Unless he pulled up vert over the top (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) )
I saw a short Pony vs Spit fight in film #6, not a Yak. You won this fight purely by having a lot more E than the Spit, and getting a good surprise bounce. Even though, there were a couple of close calls, where you gave up good position. Patience is more than a virtue in the Pony, and the only hurrying you do will be toward a smoking hole.
The N1k fight shows this to an extreme. I lost count of how many times you had a great chance to extend, climb, and reset for a good attack, and you reversed right back with him co-E. In the Pony, if you're fighting fair, you're outnumbered. Now, granted, I did see some amazing pulls by the N1k, but you were riding a pretty rough road yourself, and blowing a lot of E on low probability passes. I would have tried to get some separation, and climb up, then reset for another slash. As a side note, your after flight "salute" could use a little work if you want to make friends (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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I'm not an expert at anything about AH mind you, but a lot of really good pilots have tried (with little, but improving result) to teach me how to fly in the Pony. If I'm wrong about what I said, I hope they'll steer you right.
Muttz
332 Flying Mongrels
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Thanx for reply's...thats why I but em out for review....I made the comment to hooligan on the email that my opener was a tweener.
My question was/is how do you retain that E and turn rate. I agree he was pos E coming in, seperation at my 3 was 275-300, at my 6 600 at my low 7 maxed at 850 or so. Yes I could of tightened up into a HO. I'm simply amazed at that turn....from recall I was in a climbing lefthander at mod G's (3-3.5)...so I'm clearly in an E fighting mindset and he hosed me on the angles...the rev was a dumb move but im not into mutual HO's ...also I'm way off on his eburn in my mind.
Mutt....clip "#6" should be hog, 9 pony/yak and #12 the pony/nikki. By nature I'm a T&Ber so pure B&Z has no interest to me. I was/am trying to find that fine line on E-fighting the pony....I'm sure that my judgement in the pony (and all planes) could use help. I didnt have any interest in buzz bombing him. My question was/is that E retention by nikki. I sincerly appreciate any critique on any/all the clips.
The questions are still as follows....
1) how does the hog retain that kind of E there...or am I just way off on my "mindset"...from my end I think that kind of E would throw him out 1.2-1.5....even with my rev into him. Thats an awful tight low yoyo he's flying. Hooligans call is simple...he's +E going in....my mid/lowspeed rev shortens his path and he still has enough E to climb into my climbing rev. My only issue here is G limits & E loss on that turn.
2) Nikki E retention...you see what I see with regard to the pulls. I'm certainly looking for any/all critique on how I flew that one, but my real question is that E modeling. My feeling is that my rev's were in a moderate pos E position. By nature I'm to aggresive (pure angles fighter) so I agree patience is a problem. It's that fine line I'm hoping to find again.
I've flown 7-8 yrs now mutt and I'm not aware of any bad manners....I throw out plenty of salutes/compliments...I had a great pony/pony with Kappa yesterday...he cleaned my clock and he got a big <S> and compliment.
Thanx for input, it's greatly appreciated.
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Greg,
Let me ask you question different way....is the E bleed mine...hvy hands...extra G's...or lack of e bleed on nikki. I'm simply trying to "recalibrate" my expectations here.
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1) You both turn about 180 degrees. You both bleed a lot of E. It appears to me that he in fact bleeds significantly more, but... he started with a big advantage so he still has more E at the end.
You retain E by doing the following: Never do a tight turn when a more shallow turn will do what's necessary. Do vertical moves in preference to horizontal moves. Climb during pauses. When I watched the N1K clip it seemed to me that he was pretty good about doing these things.
Hooligan
[This message has been edited by Hooligan (edited 05-13-2001).]
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Humble:
Not aware of any bad manners? Do you rember your comment about the "roadkill FM" to the N1K pilot. Explain to me how you can tell anybody: "You're flying an uber-airplane and I'm not", without the implication being that it was the other plane and not the other pilot that beat you.
Hooligan
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I saw the films and I have to say that you made so big mistakes fighting the n1k that I'm really amazed you flew away from that fight. The n1k actually did what you should have done, held E and pulled to vertical.
I saw you lose a perfectly good rope position in the beginning of the fight with a move that burned most of your spare E. Although N1k's are dangerous to rope at least you could have gained a better position.. Anyone who starts turning a pony with n1k is picking letters for his gravestone.
The chog encounter was clearly a missed call. Chog is a bad opponent to a pony especially if it has speed like this one had.
Looks like you lost sight of the chog and started turning back on his flightpath.
The turn the chog made was so tight, that he should have burned all the advantage he had by that time so you just had bad luck to give him a clear gunning position.
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What I said on ch 1 is being said by 75% or more of this community. The reason I put the films up was to ask questions/get answers. I didn't insult pilot or make any excuse. I also made comment to you in the E-mail that he extended and reloaded...only to make same errors. I also asked any/all comments be posted not private....I'll take the good and the bad from this. I don't claim to be any kind of "super stick" or am I hiding behind any BS complaints or excuses.
I agree with you in the Hog clip....I pulled what I felt was moderate climbing turn (maybe G load bit hi)...he climbed all over me....only question is the turn. I appreciate the time you took and respect your answer.
I've never intentionally ripped anyone that I can recall....but the FM issues are real.
The Chog is a curiosity to me. Far as I'm concerned the Nikki is porked. However, I'm searching for alternative's also.
Mr Sid....the nikki started that fight Pos-E/Pos angles...he's closing on my dead 6. He's bleeding E from the very beginning. Yes I did push the fight, and truthfully I should of won it easily ( I'm rusty as hell).
I'm certainly open to any/all critique on what I can/could to better (for starters I'm pulling to many G's myself). The issue here isn't my flying, I'm looking at the E retention of the Nikki, I happen to think it's way to high based on what I see.
To me I'm not positive E in beginning of fight...I did try for a couple ropes later but Nikki had to much E (whole point of thread)...either I'm scraping E to much...or pushing it to hard...or using bad judgement...or nikki is overmodeled. Any/all possibilities. Again, thank you for taking time to look at the clips.
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Mr Sid....looked at that that clip. Don't see what your talking about. To me, thats a well flown neg E fight for a pony in that situation. I was 235 at beginning with hoim closing....rev into him only way I could. Not a single non vertical move in fight from me. No major wasted E (lot of little stuff)...yes I could of Run...er extended...but why...he kept going out instead of up...he had multiple chances to go vert over me and dance on my head...last rev pushed it a bit far, but thats where the fun is. Again every pass including the last I feel he's out of position and the flight model is not "charging" him to reorient to me.
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If you don't have the patience that B&Z requires, don't fly B&Z primary planes like the pony and 190, is my advice to you.
I can't really advise on the 190a8 vs Hog fight, since I never fly 190a8. I never had any problems with 190s in my Hog until the Dora showed up, and it just ran away a lot (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
In the Pony vs N1K, you should have extended and roped him. I do this all the time (6 kills of N1K, no death). Takes a little time and work, but it's oh so rewarding (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Same goes for the Spit really, you should have extended and controlled the fight. The pony is one of the fastest planes around, use it wisely.
I saw nothing particularly strange about the FM stuff in the vids, that I don't see every day.
If you want to explore the border between B&Z and T&B, try the Spit9 or the N1K (did I say that or think it?), both are good at either type of fighting.
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2nd Lt. Hogni "Darling" Gylfason
332nd FG "Flying Mongrels"
143rd Pursuit Wing
(http://peterson.gm.is/img/darling_143.jpg)
[This message has been edited by darling (edited 05-13-2001).]
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Didn't see the Yak fight... seems the clips posted weren't all there.
As far as the other two go.. you really need to focus more on your own energy condition. Hooligan and MrSid pretty much covered your mistakes.
The only thing that that seems to seem uber is simply an N1K doing a lead turn (via immelman) on you as you were climbing at about 220. I figure the N1K was doing about 300 or more at the bottom of the move and totally had you out energied... can't believe you lived.
AKDejaVu
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I went online this afternoon and filmed some N1k maneuvers. Sorry about the long flight, but there are a few interesting points. Note the immelman on take off, the negative G stability, and the insanely tight radius near the end. I think I was also able to do an immelman, then an outside immelman, to make a big S over the field.
This thing does seem to have a secret Swiss E-bank account. I wonder if the real one can do that.
here is the link:
N1k film 290K (http://home.bak.rr.com/gcook/n1kflm.zip)
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AK/Darling...both of you are excellent pony drivers...I do respect/understand your point of view and I can fly both ways. Again, if you look at the remerge after his 3.5 horizontal extension on 1st merge...he 1s close to me at my 3...435 at my low 6 1.5 back as I climb at 210...1.3 as i hit 200...and tops out just behind me at 230 or so. To me he should of gone vertical on 1st merge...he was nose down to me on 2nd merge. I pushed it since he wasn't, form my view point after 1st merge I controlled fight from 1st merge on. Yes, the last rev was pushing it...but again he flew it badly...far as im concerned the e retention is way off.
No doubt I can fly a more efficient fight...but far as I'm concerned you can E fight a pony just fine...the B&Z stuff is just to boring for me.
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Greg,
thanx for taking time for a "test flight"...seems like you've got your own questions now...or am I miss reading that last post?
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No, I've always thought that there might be some "irregularities" in the N1k's FM. I don't have the heart to fly it in combat much, cause I figure that if I can get a kill or two in it, there must be something wrong. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I don't see it as invincible, cause I seem to die in it, just like most of the other planes I sign out, I just take a few with me before I go. I'm sure HTC will fix it. Till then, I just don't hang around them long enough to let them get guns on me.
Stay fast and live!
Muttz
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Heh, flying n1k after being used to an E fighter is deadly.
I've found out that when on a n1k you have to forget everything you learned to be successful. Yank it, stall it, flip it over and over and it will keep on going.. That's why the newbies love it.
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Flying a N1K2 myself quite a bit, lately.
Let me put in front that I do not know anything as far as the "real" performances of the thing in RL, or how those are modelled in here.
Like MrSid says, using N1K2 e-conciously makes it a deadly plane. Had loads of ammo. Works wonders on the vertical. Turn&Burn with anyone. Good rudder authority. Quite sturdy. Stable gun platform.
On the other hand, It is pretty easy for quite a lot of planes here to disengage, (only average hi-speed control, average to bad performance hi above, and blackouts quite easyly) only don't get caught low and slow, or with big e-disadvantage.
If you make flat turns against a N1K2, you better be a good Spitfire driver, or a Zeke one. No Pony should even try to turnfite it.
Just my 2 cents.
Pepe
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Pepe: IMO n1k blackouts very little at high speeds. I dove after a tempest the other night and was amazed how I could use the controls to make the nose point on the temp just like it was going in a slow motion movie.. Not even a trace of blackout and precise controllability at around 400mph.
Right after that I tried to do the same in a spit and the world was pitch black after the first touch to the stick.
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Spit blackout VERY easily. I agree with that. It's worse than N1K2 for sure. The reason why the George blackouts very little at hight speeds has to do, IMO, with hi-speed control. N1K2 becomes, as you point, slow motion at hi speeds. Over 300 kts. IAS, it rolls very slowly, and elev authority is also reduced. So it is difficult to pull high G's when moving very fast. I think Spit elev authority is better at high speeds.
Pretty much all of the faster planes in AH can cut into a N1K2 at higher speeds (+300), and that's the trick with fiting against George. If the faster plane manages to keep its speed over 300/350, little the George can do. Besides that, over 20k, N1K2 can do nil.
Cheers,
Pepe
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Humble, in the first case, F4U vs 190A8, you have little or no chances to survive even in at co-E initial situation. If you want to know exactly what I mean, go offline, pickup a Hog 75% fuel, level it at 5k and try tight loops with initial speeds of 300, 275 and 250 mph. Now try the same with 190A8. Notice the absence of horn warning in the case of Hog and the relative loose of speed in the loops.
And Pepe, you are right about defensive moves against nikki, the problem is to convert the deffensive pos into a offensive one. If you keep so fast, the nikki will be able to track you unless you break. If you break at hi speed, the nikki will go up with little loose of E and gaining a lot of control. You'll have little or no chances to pass to offensive.
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MANDOBLE,
your the 1st true hog driver that responded to you...and I agree, a 190 is gonna be hard pressed there no matter what. When I saw hog slash down I was suprised...my instant reaction at seperation 300 (my hi 3) 600 as he disappeared under my tail...900 as I reaquired on climbing turn ld me to believe he was slow and pulling max G's....obviously I was wrong...my ONLY question is speed/drag/e-ret. I'd expect to turn that tight he has to be at corner speed (225?) now he's pulling awful hard to get that nose up around. Normally a hog there is coming up in my front aspect as I turn....he's still well behind my 3-9 line and literally in a full HO as I close to 550 or so and pull up.
If you feel that that's a moderate or hi speed turn...or my climbing turn..initially to regain vis...then based on what i saw...was a moron move that enabled closure I'll accept it. I just was amazed he could turn the hog 270 deg in total of 1.2 in low yoyo with that much E.
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Humble:
That hog did not turn 270 degrees.
At the beginning of the film you are going almost due N and he is almost due S. At the end you are both almost due N, this means the hog turned about 180 AND SO DID YOU. I think the hog bled a LOT of energy. However you did also (from 300 IAS to about 200).
The hog did the simplest thing possible. He dove in and tried to HO you. When he missed he just yanked his plane around in a right turn towards you, there was no finesse or E management whatsoever that I could see. You turned into him and once you started doing that you should have committed yourself to another merge, but then you turned away a just gave him your 6. I can't even think of a way you could make it easier for him. If you were AFK on autotrim and just flew straight he would have probably never caught you after blowing all that E in his turn.
Nothing in any of your 3 films is indicative of anything funny in any FM.
Hooligan
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You may be right there...i'm at work so i cant view clip. I went right to min hor seperation...he's already turning into me. Then Rev as he passed. I kind of figured he's turning before during and after merge...also i'm climbing so there's a vertical seperation as well.
Once again I have no problem with the strong probability that the "moron at work" sign was lit on the back of the 190 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
I'm simply reacting to what visual clues I was given with regard to relative E state/burn.
On the nikki I just happen to disagree with you. At the critical points in fight his positioning is very inconsistant with E retention. He's working against his own momentum. He does extend to reload on multiple occasions, and yes I'm pushing way into the "red zone" with regard to my own E state. But my gut feel is that he's not bleeding E at all.
The one "segment" is the 3rd merge...(off memory) he pulls up off my 6 and I rev back to him....i'm trying to maintain contact since he pulled to vert then extended hor away...not a good E move at all. I feel like I'm minimizing his E gain...he pulls back to me and goes for HO into a diving reverse. thats the worst possible move he could make in my opinion. He's fighting his own momentum all the way. Now, I was also working on a little E so yes he's gonna gain some...buts he's climbing like a bat out of hell there (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Originally posted by humble:
MANDOBLE, your the 1st true hog driver ...
Mistaken, I'm an A8 driver, not Hog. But I have a clear idea of what can do the Hog and sincerely, your chances to survive are minimal. You cant even extend, he is faster after a dive. If you get into scissors he will follow, if he fails he will keep much more energy than you. If you are success forcing a CoE situation, he will outturn/outdive/outclimb you. If you get a bit of E advantage, you cant invest it on the vertical, the hog will outzoom you. Your only real hope is a hog mistake or to force a HO.
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Originally posted by humble:
What I said on ch 1 is being said by 75% or more of this community.
Not to sway off-topic, but I'll do my best to remain in that 25% minority.
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OHMYGAWD!
Ive never seen 3 films debated this much, not even 3 good ones.
My advice Humble. If you dont understand what a plane is doing, then go fly that plane. Youre going to get a much more accurate accessment in the cockpit then from looking in your 6 view.
My secong advice is to fly more and analyze less.
You used poor judgement in your encounters. If you use an E fighter, use it AS an efighter, which means having more E comming into a fight than your opponent and disengaging when you become co e or loose the advantage altogether.
If you want to turn and Burn (nothing wrong with it) then use a plane suited to that.
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In the N1K film I saw you repeatedly bleed E by doing turns into the N1K. Basically blowing your energy and giving the N1K a chance to bind you up in a turn fight. It's a miracle you survived. The only reason you did is that once the N1K got on you you dove out and the stang's speed saved you. When you dove out (and diving loses E), he followed you a bit then started climbing (i.e. banking E). IMO the film clearly shows the following: The N1K was cautious and maintained his E. You threw your E away.
Hooligan
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hblair,
Your not taking it off topic at all....that is the topic. I've yet to see anyone ever actually post a clip after a "rant". My comments were not extended or beligerent...least from my view point. However, I do feel if your gonna squeak...back it up with the clips.
You and I had a run in few days back, I made a gentle swipe...but also came back with a <S> and praise for your E management...you also confirmed you were pushing the edge and hosed me from "long range". We both knew I rolled the dice and lost.
If the overall feeling is the nikki's fine then lets get on with business (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)...My decision this go around with AH is i'm not gonna whine if I don't the clip to show.
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rgr humble. fair enough.
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Couple last quick comments then I'll let this one peter on out.
I posted the clip with issue of e retention by Nikki...not for a tactics film.
My take is simple, I'm neg E the whole time with the Nikki. He had control of the whole fight if he'd taken it. Now on initial merge his 3.5 horizontal "sepration" gave me time to leave....so did his climbing reverses after all three "re-merges".
I didn't see a single non vertical move I made in that clip...as for could I have flown the pony "properly" far as I'm concerned I did (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)...yes I could of extended and buzz bombed him...but I had enough E to play with and it was a fun fight.
Now my question is simple...is the nikki's E retension excessive....that's it. As for the rest of it, since I fly "dumb" I'll continue to get hosed on a regular basis (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif).
As a last comment the Nikki never had a shot till I tried to really force a mistake at end. Although he certainly had a closeup view on the zoom...so he may of had a nibble and missed there....my call on that fight is simple, the nikki blew 4-5 chances to hose me by never going to the vertical on any merge correctly, wasted all his planes advantages extending horizontally...never once took the fight up.
So in closing, I appreciate ALL the comments and time taken. The Hog related ones are right on...specially hooligans and Mandobles.
The nikki/pony stuff more mixed...lot of comments on my flying ... not many on the question posed. On the E question, it seems to be a mixed bag with strong feelings both ways.
As for the flying part, I think I handled a neg E fight with Nikki reasonably well, considering that I'm the chasing him around (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Personally I think he flew that hop as bad as you can fly a Nikki, only the planes capabilitys saved him...no indication of any basic ACM or 1 vs 1 tactics...he could of waxed me 6 different ways there. I fought the only fight (vs run) that I had to work with.
Just my 2 cents here....again my opinion has no more merit than anyone elses and the clip is there for all.
Thanks again for taking the time, specially hooligan for posting em for me <S>
[This message has been edited by humble (edited 05-14-2001).]
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People talk about E-retention and that is not the issue: Really it is usually acceleration.
2 planes do a little turning and both bleed E. But... one weighs 9000 lbs and has 1800 hp. The other weighs 7500 lbs and has 2100 HP. Guess what happens. The aircraft with the better power to weight ratio can much more rapidly accelerate or climb out of its poor E state. Its not that some aircraft don't bleed E, they just recover it much quicker than others.
hooligan
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Excellent point, i'm pretty positive that the
nikki easily out accelerates a pony in level flight. I think the nikki is pretty heavy though. I know it will easily outclimb a pony also. One reason I rev was to limit build up and keep him from going up on me. Although he easily could of climbed over me, he never really did.