Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: SethK on May 13, 2001, 01:18:00 AM
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Toward the end of World War II, General Hap Arnold authorized the making of a color film on the activities of his forward strike air crews as the Allies closed in on Berlin. Over the course of 60 days, film crews captured the activities of the 362 Fighter Group, which destroyed over 6,000 German targets but suffered a nearly 50 percent casualty rate as the camera rolled. Deemed too brutal to show to the public, the film was shelved-until now. With the help of four of the pilots who appeared in the unreleased 1945 production, The History Channel presents this never-before-seen film that captures the actions and emotions of P-47 Thunderbolt crews above Germany over 55 years ago.
•Airs Sunday, May 13 at 10pm ET/PT
tune in to the history channel should be a good one
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Gosh, I wish I had that channel.. Sounds like lots of good stuff coming.
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LOTS and LOTS of combat footage. Gonna be a goody.
(http://home.nc.rr.com/ammo/public.html/ammo_sig2.jpg) (http://www.jump.net/~cs3)
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Never fear Mr. Sid. You can buy it online:
Thunderbolts: Conquest of the Reich (http://store.aetv.com/cgi-bin/ae.storefront/0/Ext/OutsideFrame/UT/32/Product/43191) $19.95
(http://www.jump.net/~cs3/sigs/uns_sig.jpg) (http://www.jump.net/~cs3)
Hell hath no fury like 8 50 cals and 18 fire breathing cylinders.
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Just watched the program and it was really one of the best I have ever seen. The gun camera photage was awesome....great detail.
One thing interesting was they said they could kill Tiger tanks with a P47 by shooting their 50s just to the rear or very near and that the bullets would richochet from the ground and penetrate the armor underneath where it was very thin.
From there this might start a fire with the fuel, ammo, or damage other mechanisms. They actually had camera photage of them making runs on Tigers.
They also had a lot of detail regarding shooting soldiers and individual vehicles on the ground.
The P47 loses though were very high, nearly 50% as ground attack was a very dangerous business.
Next time I'm frustrated about getting shot down, before I replane, I'm going to pause to reflect a moment on those brave pilots who didn't make it back on all sides.
See you in the air!
Rogue out
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Cant believe the average life expectancy of the replacement pilots in march '44 was 2 missions....that's just incredible.
CRASH
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Just watched it.... Fantastic Domumentary on the P-47! Thanks to all for giving us a Headups on the airing! I never thought about horse drawn ammunition carts and Tigers pulling ammo behind them. Watching that gave me another perspective of that terrible War!
Salute
(http://www.applink.net/thunder/sig/thsig.jpg)
[This message has been edited by Thunder (edited 05-13-2001).]
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Kool its coming on again at 1am. I get to see it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
LLB OUT!!!!!!!!!!!
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That Tiger strafing thing is a bit of a misconception. Apparently the pilots were uninformed that tanks had full armour underneath as well (that P47 pilot interviewed on the show said he thought tanks were unarmored under), so they thought this could work. In reality all German tanks had fully armored undersides.
For example the Tiger 1 had 26mm underside armor, while Panther had between 25-30mm underside armour depending on model.
This armor thickness is well beyond the penetration capability of WW2.50cals.
Plus the bullets would loose much energy striking the ground, and then after bouncing off would impact any horizontal tank understide armour plate an an extremly acute angle thus would often simply bounce off.
This didn't really work in RL.
The other thing they mentioned about strafing the small 2drum fuel carts that Panzers sometimes used is very interesting. As is the napalm idea.
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grunherez were you there? did you fly a p47 in ww2?...i seriously dont that they are full if toejam...why would they waste ammo on a old wifes tale or misconception? obviously it worked or they wouldnt waste ammo.
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SethK ... physics in 2001 is just the same as physics in 1944.
A .50cal round simply cannot, ever, ever, penetrate the armour thickness on a Panzer.
If it could, do you really think that both sides would have bothered developing 40mm and 37mm antitank cannon for their aircraft? Why not just outfit them with a brace of .50cal machine guns if that's all it took. Why bother building bazookas if a .50 cal round from a grunt's rifle can kill a Panzer?
If every pilot's claim of a kill in WW2 were correct, both sides would have run out of aircraft, tanks etc by mid 1941.
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Sethk its very simple they didnt know it wasnt effective. Thats what im saying they were under the misconception that tank hull bottoms were unarmored so they thought it would work, while in reality it didnt.
One of the pliots on the show said that they shot at the tanks because the bottoms were not armored. But the bottoms are armored with between 25-30mm on Tigers and Panthers so it didnt work.
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Damn, it is not for sale outside US and canada.
That realy sucks, i hate that!!!!!
I am a big fan of this stuff and can't even buy it!
Sorry to say this,
JG5FaBi.
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Aiming under the engine compartment did work occasionally, but not for the reason given. They were of course armored to protect from mines and infantry weapons.
But, German heavy tanks were pretty notorious for leaky fuel feed system, especially later on in the war when gasket and and other rubber components were of poor quality, so problems arose after overhauls.
Combine moderate fuel seepage with quantity of .50 cal API rounds a P-47 can expend, lighting off the under side of the tank and you can see it how this misconception got started (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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hehe that one guy said it was strange to see the horses they shot jump 20 ft in the air . what a mess
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<S> to the pilots of the 362nd and 377th FGs.
I knew it was inevitable that someone would come on the board and explain how the first-hand accounts of pilots who actually flew the missions were "wrong" for this reason or that.
Here's the facts: Up until late 1944, newly manufactured German armored vehicles were indeed armored on their ventral surfaces. However, at the end of 1944/beginning of 1945, the German Reich was unable to produce sufficient high-tensile strength steel, and so the armored vehicles being produced at that time were left ventrally unarmored.
There is no need for anti-mine armor unless you are using your panzers in offensive operations. Such was the reasoning of Albert Speer at the time. This, combined with the absolute decimation of the Ruhr industrial region, dictated reduced useage of armor plating on the undersides of virtually all Wermacht armor manufactured in the 6 to 9 months prior to V-E day.
Some of these "ricochet" attacks were ineffective, simply because the Jugs were attacking armor made prior to the design changes.
The efficacy of the "ricochet" method of attack was proven by inspection of destroyed Tiger/Panther/Leopard tanks performed by U.S. Army Combat Engineers, advancing closely behind Allied front line forces.
Along with all of those Allied men and women whose sacrifices enabled freedom's ultimate victory in the Second World War, I salute all of the members of the 362nd and 377th Fighter Groups.
Kudos to the History Channel for their programming, as well.
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This was a cool show, color gun camera footage! Now I expect we'll see a lot of new Jug pilots in the MA... for about 1 day.
ra
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ehhh actualy is it imposible reviev in Europe hmmm bad bad if can some make a low quality copy , copy what not tuch Copyright
(i em not a pirat )
got a satelite recive unlimited bandwich just need to get it from ftp
maybe ?
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Degas:
Thanks for the new and interesting information.
Hooligan
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I don't know what was more disturbing, hearing the guy talk about the horses jumping 20 ft in the air after getting hit by a .50 cal slug, or seeing the guncam footage of the horse carriages getting strafed. I'm just glad they didn't show footage of soldiers getting strafed when the pilot was discussing it. *shudders* At least the pilot said something about not feeling good about shooting at the horse drawn carriages.
It was a good show all around. It's necessary to be reminded of the reality of WWII. Even without counting the Holocaust, more civilians died in WWII than military personnel (at least in the European theater).
Real wars are about the worst thing humanity can do, but it sure is fun to play wargames on the PC.
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Someone mpeg/divx it?
// fats
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Degas,
You made some VERY good points. I think you cleared up the issue with some solid and logical info. I'm sure it was a tactic that was only marginally successful but successful nonetheless. I'm sure all it would take is 1-2 accounts to start circulating within the squadrons and they'd all give it a try if they ever ran across a tank. And why not, you're mission is interdiction and that means tanks too and if you'd heard that there was no armor underneath then that's the tactic you'd try. Makes perfect sense to me...
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I thought that there should have been more of the air to air and air to ground footage shown instead of countless minutes showing captured Germans parading around which was a waste of valuable air-time imho. All in all a very eye-opening show.
In spite of popular belief, was good to see the smoke whisps from the tracer rounds and the nice "sparkles" of impacting rounds just like we have here in AH... we are sooo spoiled. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Lonz
P47-d-30 dweeb
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And if you watch carefully you can see the grey flak bursts on occassion. Imagine the small arms ground fire as well and the always ever present "golden BB".
Rogue out
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And if you watch carefully you can see the grey flak bursts on occassion. Imagine the small arms ground fire as well and the always ever present "golden BB".
As far as shooting armor and the 0.50s effectiveness. A 50 cal round is big...
Imagine being inside a tank getting hammered by those 8 0.50s. Regardless of whether it is taking damage or not, I cannot see the tank crew laughing and flipping the bird at the attacking P47.
Rogue out
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There were some instances during the guncam footage of tracer rounds hitting paved roads and shooting nearly straight up. But only one or two out of every 3 or so second burst.
Btw there is one slight problems with the Tiger and whether or not the engine compartment was armored ... most were completed by 44, as were most of the main battle tanks. (Panther is an exception, it started production in '43 and continued to the end of the war)
A total of 1,354 Tigers were built between Aug 1942 and Aug 1944 when production ceased.
The German industry, in the case of it's heavy tanks, did not keep producing tanks up until the end of the war. During late 1942, most of '43 and early '44, nearly all the tanks that would serve during the remainer of the European conflict were produced, before the industrial sectors had to scamp on raw materials. The only real problems with the heavier German tanks were replacement parts such as engines, bearings and other parts made to wear out, as these had to be constantly replaces.
Even the rehashed chassis from earlier conflicts still had their armor intact, which had been produced during what could still be called the offensive (but in actuallity a stale mate) period in Russia.
Only the Pz IV and the Pz V Panthers were really subject to manufacturing problems during mid '44 to the end of the war, as they were in continued production.
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Oh and as far as the Pz V and Pz IV go, 2800 Panthers were produced before March '44 (D and A) Another 3126 Ausf G versions from March '44 till the end of the war.
The majority of Pz IV chassis were produced before '44.
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ONe of us here in the states could by several and send them overseas and those of you over their could pay him/her 19.95 plus shipping and maybe a hassle fee. And then you would have it. :0
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Originally posted by Nifty:
I don't know what was more disturbing, hearing the guy talk about the horses jumping 20 ft in the air after getting hit by a .50 cal slug, or seeing the guncam footage of the horse carriages getting strafed. I'm just glad they didn't show footage of soldiers getting strafed when the pilot was discussing it. *shudders* At least the pilot said something about not feeling good about shooting at the horse drawn carriages.
It was a good show all around. It's necessary to be reminded of the reality of WWII. Even without counting the Holocaust, more civilians died in WWII than military personnel (at least in the European theater).
Real wars are about the worst thing humanity can do, but it sure is fun to play wargames on the PC.
I couldn't agree with you more, Nifty. When I saw that footage and realized what was really happening on the ground when those fifty-cals opened up, it made me feel for those at both ends of the barrels.
Buhdman, out
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Good info Degas.
However, the mention of the 377th meant the 377th Fighter Squadron of the 362nd Fighter Group.
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Col Dune
C.O. 352nd Fighter Group (http://www.352ndfightergroup.com)
"The Blue Nosed Bastards of Bodney"
"Credo quia absurdum est." (I believe it because it is unreasonable)
- The motto of the Republic of Baja Arizona
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Thanks, Dune. Should have rewound the tape and watched it again (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
In my case, and from our current historical perspective, it's hard not to feel sympathy for the German people, the vast majority of whom were not Nazis, but simply human beings doing everything possible to protect their homeland from invasion.
Having a father and two uncles who served in the ETO, it's also understandable when one of the interviewed pilots talked about "hating" everything German (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
I thought that the synopsis offered by the writers at the end of the documentary was very pertinent. It shows the horrors of the war, and offsets the "WooHAW, don't that look like fun!" factor.
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Originally posted by Degas:
<
I knew it was inevitable that someone would come on the board and explain how the first-hand accounts of pilots who actually flew the missions were "wrong" for this reason or that.
Here's the facts: Up until late 1944, newly manufactured German armored vehicles were indeed armored on their ventral surfaces. However, at the end of 1944/beginning of 1945, the German Reich was unable to produce sufficient high-tensile strength steel, and so the armored vehicles being produced at that time were left ventrally unarmored.
There is no need for anti-mine armor unless you are using your panzers in offensive operations. Such was the reasoning of Albert Speer at the time. This, combined with the absolute decimation of the Ruhr industrial region, dictated reduced useage of armor plating on the undersides of virtually all Wermacht armor manufactured in the 6 to 9 months prior to V-E day.
Some of these "ricochet" attacks were ineffective, simply because the Jugs were attacking armor made prior to the design changes.
The efficacy of the "ricochet" method of attack was proven by inspection of destroyed Tiger/Panther/Leopard tanks performed by U.S. Army Combat Engineers, advancing closely behind Allied front line forces.
?
Reference please.
Leopard tanks?
That is the first time that I have read that the Germans degraded the quality of their belly armour. In fact the Panther II designs had even more belly armour then the Panther G.
Yes they stopped making Tiger 1s in the fall of 44 but they continued making Tiger IIs instead. At almost the same rate. It had very heavy belly armour.
While I am willing to look at any reference you would care to put forward concerning these "soft belly" German medium and heavy tanks. I would guess that the pilot in the film was influenced by one or more of the following.
Concurrent destruction of a tank by another source. leads a pilot to believe he straffed a tiger to death with hmg only.
Over optimistic Intell breifings formulated to keep the aggression flowing.
The desire to attack a Tank and a need to justify the sillyness of it.
Blurring of circumstance. The Americans did use their 57mm anti tank guns in this way. In the ardennes they purposly held fire on panthers and Tiger IIS to point blank and then fired at the cobble stone under the tank. The farthest advancing Panthers of Kamp Gruppe Pieper were destroyed this way. That would have been commonly known and these guys figured it applied to them too.
It did not.
Some people will say anything on camera.
If you are correct though then they would have had to degrade the armour signifigantly to allow for penetration by 50 cal.
The History Channel in Canada did not air the film or advertise it yet. I think we got "Cuba" in that time spot.
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www.historychannel.com (http://www.historychannel.com)
O my, mine is otw! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
LaVa