Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Nash on July 17, 2003, 06:01:55 AM
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There ya have it. Thanks for playing everyone, and have a safe ride home.
(I'd offer my congratulations to the winner, but considering the nature of the bet there's no way to do it without sounding silly. :) )
Toad... Yours and mine's bet comes due 3 months from today. That's the one I'm looking forward to. :p
Edit: Surfed around a bit. Came back and saw the title of this post. Almost caught off guard. Thought back to 6 months ago, and how suprising it is now to actually see these words, and this result, posted here. Something else...
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I think 6 months from cessation of combat operations is more realistic anyways. I was willing to give the inspectors until the Autumn, afterall.
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I honestly don't think it makes that much of a difference. It's just instinct, but it tells me that if you can't find it in three, it's probably not going to be there in six.
The most likely sites have already been searched, and the majority of the people who would have been involved in any weapons programs have already been interviewed. If WMD turns up, it's going to have to come from the less likely sites, or come by way of a tip from someone not as involved. And the odds of that happening are obviously higher.
I don't think more time equates to more area you can cover with a shovel. I don't think we're looking at that kind of search.
Still, it's anyone's guess...
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Saddam can be a bad person, but it doesn't mean he'd be stupid.
I really can't find a reason why he would have wanted to develop WMD and risk his life.
Not even to strenghten his position, since it wouldn't have worked against western countries if they'd find out he really has WMD. (which kind of happened already, even without the proofs)
For Saddam, it was all about staying in power.
Therefore my opinion from the begining has been that he won't have the hyped WMD.
He did have WMD back in the times, but back then he also had nice allies.. US being one of them.
Until he stirred up the wrong bee nest..
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(http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1810000/images/_1813203_grave300.jpg)
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Hiya's,
Bets ehh
Look at the area of iraq, Mass graves being found now dating to more than a decade or if not 2 decades ago, WMD inpsectors kicked out of iraq for what was it 4yrs ?
Hmm saddi (sadaam) i've got an idea (an aid for eg), Let's pick some points in remote areas now that no-ones looking n spying within our borders and dump/bury/conceal/contain in deep bunkers etc etc anything we wanna hide, Hell lets even without anyones knowledge build a legit something over em, Darn it bro t'is a cunning plan so cunning you could put a tail on it and call it a fox !
Guys try and remember how this regime hid most of its stuff from the west, Now you really think knowing the major power/s in the west wanted to find evidence asap that the regime would of hid anything where it could easily be found ? Dang it's like looking for a needle in a million + 1 barns
My bet would of been at least 1-2yrs unless someone with knowledge grassed/caughed-up/snitched
Time will tell (if not a snitch will)
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Hmm saddi (sadaam) i've got an idea (an aid for eg), Let's pick some points in remote areas now that no-ones looking n spying within our borders and dump/bury/conceal/contain in deep bunkers etc etc anything we wanna hide, Hell lets even without anyones knowledge build a legit something over em, Darn it bro t'is a cunning plan so cunning you could put a tail on it and call it a fox !
Ya, what happened to the 45 mins deployment plan then? Shall we go over this AGAIN?
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Eagler - worse things happen Africa. So my question to you is, when is the CVN flotilla due to arrive over there?
WMD is the issue, there is no escaping that fact. It was what the whole show was riding on.
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Originally posted by Dowding
...WMD is the issue, there is no escaping that fact. It was what the whole show was riding on.
The sad part of this Dowding is that too many people look at it with that attitude. Sadaam's regime was evil, and rotten to the core. Millions of people died, quite ruthlessly. WMD's were a forefront of the instigation, but not the only reason. Stability within the arab world was another major factor. We can hound about no WMD's being found, but it will not change the fact that Iraq is a better place now then it was 1 yr ago, in 5 yrs it will be even better.
On the flip side, they will locate the disposition of the WMD's within 2 years from cessation of hostilities, sooner if Sadaam or his sons are caught. Sadly, that still will not be enough for the naysayers.
I wonder what the average Iraqi really thinks. In the end, thats the attitude that matters. :eek:
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Why didnt you djust say : We are gonna start an war with Iraq to remove Saddam from power.
Things would have been so much easier then...
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Originally posted by Eagler
(http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1810000/images/_1813203_grave300.jpg)
Congolese Liberian or Iraqi skull ?
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3 months was the bet. What beer is MT buying?
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we can't even find some important people in iraq, does that mean they don't exist?
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
we can't even find some important people in iraq, does that mean they don't exist?
lazs
hehehe
yep, Saddam and his sons were just computer animations...
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Good grief. We looked for the Atlanta bomber for how long? He was hiding in that huge Metropolis of North Carolina.
Some of you arm chair intelligence experts are a riot.
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Originally posted by Eagler
hehehe
yep, Saddam and his sons were just computer animations...
Must be. Our best intel resources and tons of precision munitions dedicated to their demise couldn't do the job. Should have jobbed out to an Israeli chopper with a few rockets. Plant the baddies on the spot with just a few innocents. Might have worked on Bin Laden also.
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Wasnt there like six Saddams or something? Atleast one would have been found by now.
CIA conspiracy for sure...
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Yep. An entire 90 days as of today.
10Bears, name the Ronald McDonald house you'd like the $45 sent to and how you want it verified.
Or I can give it to the local one here and send you a receipt.
Whatever you like.
Nash, we'll see. As Yogi said, "it ain't over 'til it's over".
I remain of the opinion that 90 days isn't all that much time.
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don't those greasy greavy-covered fries in Canada count as WMD's ?
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Originally posted by Dowding
I think 6 months from cessation of combat operations is more realistic anyways. I was willing to give the inspectors until the Autumn, afterall.
You might have been willing. The Bush administration was not. I find it odd that they would not allow Blix the time to conduct the inspections, but now bleat about needing more time.
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Well, we haven't been at it 12 years or so yet. ;)
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Did the inspectors have control of the entire country with hundreds of thousands of troops on the ground? ;)
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Originally posted by Arfann
Must be. Our best intel resources and tons of precision munitions dedicated to their demise couldn't do the job. Should have jobbed out to an Israeli chopper with a few rockets. Plant the baddies on the spot with just a few innocents. Might have worked on Bin Laden also.
nononono - you're getting it all wrong - USA does Israel's dirty work...not the other way round...sheesh.
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Originally posted by Dowding
Did the inspectors have control of the entire country with hundreds of thousands of troops on the ground? ;)
Does the U.S.?
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They are in a lot better position than a few hundred inspectors under the scrutiny of a police state to discover weapons.
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Hey Dowding,
If I were given.... say.... 100 semi-trailers full of crates and given six months to hide them anywhere in the state of California with full governmental cooperation unlimited funding and total secrecy (breaches punished by death)......
How long do you think it would take you and any 200,000 folks you coose to find the crates?
:)
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Huh? Somebody say sumthin?
culero (caught out vacuously staring at Nash's avatar - yet again)
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Originally posted by Toad
Hey Dowding,
If I were given.... say.... 100 semi-trailers full of crates and given six months to hide them anywhere in the state of California with full governmental cooperation unlimited funding and total secrecy (breaches punished by death)......
How long do you think it would take you and any 200,000 folks you coose to find the crates?
:)
One caveat... you have to hide it and make it an imminent threat at the same time...
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Bush gave 50 diff. speeches talking about WMD's
C.Powell showed publicly where said WMD are supposed to be....
your PREZ. and the Limey P.M. based said action in IRAQ on the Basis of WMD's.....they talked about em so much.
3 months later you say WMD's was NOT the justifyin reason for the IRAQ invasion occupation or liberation(which ever suits your needs)
confusion i say.....
must be the french....ya thats the ticket:rolleyes:
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If I were given.... say.... 100 semi-trailers full of crates and given six months to hide them anywhere in the state of California with full governmental cooperation unlimited funding and total secrecy (breaches punished by death)......
How long do you think it would take you and any 200,000 folks you coose to find the crates?
After offering substantive rewards including amnesty from prosecution to former, high ranking members of that government and common soldiers and scientists for information as to the crate's whereabouts, backed up by an extensive intelligence service that has information from agents that were in the country prior to the 'treasure hunt' starting?
I'd say about 6 months tops and that's being generous. My plan of action would be a little more in depth that a couple of guys with a metal detectors and a book of popular phrases such as "Have you seen any nasty chemicals around here recently?" :)
And let's not forget what the 'swingometer of plausibility' showed before and after the conflict; the sources showing indisputable evidence that Iraq had weaponized WMD ready to go in 45 minutes now suddenly dissappeared with end of the war.
You've got to admit these are interesting times - I wonder how history will record the current events?
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Well the "leader of the free world" took his conclusions from intelligence apparently NOBODY checked and NOBODY produced. (Or did they find the "guilty" guy putting false intelligence into the president of the USA`s mouth ? I should seek a job with an american intelligence agency, to produce a dossier making the US go to war with, say, france - NOBODY would notice).
Sorry, I can`t take a country seriously whose leader takes it to war on unchecked allegations. Yeah, he needed an excuse, so why didn`t he go to war for Saddam murdering his own people ? Not dramatic enough to warrant a 6 months hate campaign taking attention away from domestic problems ?
Why doesn`t Bush step down finally ? Starting a war on lies would be enough for ANY other political leader.
What upsets me most is that there is NO public outroar in the US. "So we went to war on a false allegation, who cares ! America #1". They even happily give up personal freedom rights for beeing more "secure" from "Al Kaida" - LOL. Maybe the US should stop waging war everywhere it has an interest, that would stop terrorists way better than videotapes you can play on TV AFTER Mr. Terrorist walked in and blew a Scysraper with PERFECTLY LEGAL PAPERS on him.
In short I see liars, dilletancy, and greed for power. And an american people so dumbed down they don`t even object.
Now flame away.
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What upsets me most is that there is NO public outroar in the US
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ROAR!!!!!
there! feel better?
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Originally posted by Yeager
What upsets me most is that there is NO public outroar in the US
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ROAR!!!!!
there! feel better?
gotta go outside and do it in public :)
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Originally posted by Saintaw
3 months was the bet. What beer is MT buying?
WHAT!!????
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Originally posted by Dowding
My plan of action would be a little more in depth that a couple of guys with a metal detectors and a book of popular phrases such as "Have you seen any nasty chemicals around here recently?" :)
LOL!
That's the best answer I've seen to the people who talk about this vast, Californian sized desert... suggesting that there are folks out there right now criss-crossing it with shovels and compasses, and therefore it's going to take some time. As bloody IF.
It doesn't matter if Iraq is the size of California or Vermont... The search method would be the same in both cases and it would have nothing to do with covering every inch of it in humvees or some other such nonsense.
Anyhow... Nice one Dowding. :)
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Originally posted by Dowding
After offering substantive rewards including amnesty from prosecution to former, high ranking members of that government and common soldiers and scientists for information as to the crate's whereabouts, backed up by an extensive intelligence service that has information from agents that were in the country prior to the 'treasure hunt' starting?
I'd say about 6 months tops and that's being generous. My plan of action would be a little more in depth that a couple of guys with a metal detectors and a book of popular phrases such as "Have you seen any nasty chemicals around here recently?" :)
And let's not forget what the 'swingometer of plausibility' showed before and after the conflict; the sources showing indisputable evidence that Iraq had weaponized WMD ready to go in 45 minutes now suddenly dissappeared with end of the war.
You've got to admit these are interesting times - I wonder how history will record the current events?
I wasn't aware that US Forces were all focused on finding WMD's...seems they have had some distractions, one of which is to restore order.
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The words you speak today should be soft and tender. . . for tomorrow you may have to eat them.
- Unknown
Well, six months may go by and no WMD. I'll pay my bet with Nash.
Then... just maybe... just possibly... 10 years will go by and some folks will be drilling for oil or checking out a cave or exploring some bunker just unmasked by howling desert storms and reveal a huge hoard of "Saddam's Lost WMD".
:)
Or maybe, just maybe... it'll be six months + one day. :D :D
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Originally posted by devious
Well the "leader of the free world" took his conclusions from intelligence apparently NOBODY checked and NOBODY produced. (Or did they find the "guilty" guy putting false intelligence into the president of the USA`s mouth ? I should seek a job with an american intelligence agency, to produce a dossier making the US go to war with, say, france - NOBODY would notice).
Sorry, I can`t take a country seriously whose leader takes it to war on unchecked allegations. Yeah, he needed an excuse, so why didn`t he go to war for Saddam murdering his own people ? Not dramatic enough to warrant a 6 months hate campaign taking attention away from domestic problems ?
Why doesn`t Bush step down finally ? Starting a war on lies would be enough for ANY other political leader.
What upsets me most is that there is NO public outroar in the US. "So we went to war on a false allegation, who cares ! America #1". They even happily give up personal freedom rights for beeing more "secure" from "Al Kaida" - LOL. Maybe the US should stop waging war everywhere it has an interest, that would stop terrorists way better than videotapes you can play on TV AFTER Mr. Terrorist walked in and blew a Scysraper with PERFECTLY LEGAL PAPERS on him.
In short I see liars, dilletancy, and greed for power. And an american people so dumbed down they don`t even object.
Now flame away.
You're ignorant of America....only the fringe left wing wacko's are upset....now give it another year and evidence of a cover up by Bush or deceit on his part....we'll run him out.
Currently, the hopes of every liberal in the US ride on this war failing, the fight against terrorism failing and the US economy failing....it's all about puting a Democrat back in the White House.
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Originally posted by Rude
You're ignorant of America....only the fringe left wing wacko's are upset....
...and according to the polls, this is approximately 9% of the population. They weren't upset before.
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Thx Nash, but today is the 17th not the 19th..
Toad you can send the money to HTC on Mass's account. Send me the recipt via email ... I got a new one
stevehouston@verizon.net
This is real DSL baby!... not ADSL.. I get 1100bps up and 1100bps down.. prolly faster than yours eh?...
Someone mentioned above this scandal wasn't getting much traction with the American public... well.. hold on to your hats!.. Somehow the mainstream media decided not to carry water for Bush any more.. Check this weeks news items.. Joseph Wilson and that..
The BS about the aluminum tubes next week... Office of Special Plans the week after.. It’s gonna get hot in that kitchen.
After giving the UN the bird.. now they want UN troops to patrol the mean streets of Baghdad. But what no-one has discussed is going to the Arab League for peace keeper troops. That would be the best face saving way for us to pull out and still be the victors.
Dubba is a nice enough fella.. and I feel bad for George and Barb, they’re nice people, but Junior is going to have to experience accountability for the first time in his life.
The way to do that is apply pressure to Vise President Chenny to resign, then Sec of Defense Rumsfield, then Sec. of State Condi “I don’t know nuthin bout birth an babies” Rice. That would leave the king open..
Republicans and Democrats have to ban together and wrestle our country back from these big corporations and I’m heartened that some are finally waking up.
My dream is for Wes Clark to throw in his hat at the last minute. He cuts a deal with the Republicans behind closed doors so they get to keep most of their programs..(pardons Bush and Chenny), most of their tax cut in exchange for the slim machine to be turned off at least for the first couple of years. Then we’d have a President we all could be happy with.
EDIT:.. If you worried about finding WMD in the sand, P'shaw, just hire yourself an albino.
10Bears--
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Originally posted by devious
Now flame away.
OK.
FOAD, Euro-trash.
culero (not kidding)
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So our spy satellites and recon over-flights wouldn't pick up unusual off loading points of certain vehicles?
Seems that if we "knew" that Iraq was such a threat all along, it'd make sence that we'd be paying more attention to such things.
But then again, maybe, just maybe, we made up these "WMD" allegations.
Time will tell.
Originally posted by Toad
Hey Dowding,
If I were given.... say.... 100 semi-trailers full of crates and given six months to hide them anywhere in the state of California with full governmental cooperation unlimited funding and total secrecy (breaches punished by death)......
How long do you think it would take you and any 200,000 folks you coose to find the crates?
:)
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10bEARS
you better check those mushrooms in the fridge .. don't think they came from the produce dept at ur local grocery store :)
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Originally posted by SaburoS
But then again, maybe, just maybe, we made up these "WMD" allegations.
Time will tell.
not so much as 'MADE UP' per se.....
more of a 'blown out of proportion'..... :D
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Originally posted by Maniac
Ya, what happened to the 45 mins deployment plan then? Shall we go over this AGAIN?
I bury a metal box with $10,000 dollars somewhere on my property, and only I know the location of it... I could dig it up in 45 minutes, while it could take several days, if not years, for someone else to find it.
We can go over it again, but the above scenario shows that it is quite possible to have a 45minute deployment plan - but only a select few have the knowledge of how to put it into action.
"Why didn't they use it?!"
Why don't some people have dental care?
-SW
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Ummmm...
The wager was $45 to Ronald McDonald house. Rearranging the terms now to suit your current whim is bad form, old chum.
Is Mass in some sort of difficulty that paying is a problem for him? If so, I'll consider that.
A deal's a deal.... but then, somehow I'm not suprised at this from you.
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Originally posted by GScholz
Don't you mean ESAD? FOAD sounds like a rather pleasant way to go.
Good point :)
I can only plead that I was struck senseless by the irony of seeing a German say "Sorry, I can`t take a country seriously whose leader takes it to war on unchecked allegations."
culero (thx for the tip, BTW)
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Ok I need your email address tho.
Chicking around in your profile I can't find it.. Need to give you my mailing addr. and that.
Putting the money on Mass's account is a way of burying the hatchet so to speak, I'm tired of this whole debate.
You know if he lied what needs to happen.. I don't need to tell you that.. You were in the service.. little brothers dying every day and there needs to be a stop to that. At the same time pull back in a way that saves face.
My suggestion was to not start it in the first place.. but of course I was shouted down.
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What's a Ronald McDonald house? Some kind of charity that McDonalds contributes to?
Surely not a bunch of happy meals?
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You chaps think Bush will face the same stiff criticism as Blair? So far he's gotten off comparatively lightly compared to Blair, but there are things brewing it seems.
What development are you foreseeing should WMDs not be found and further reports be shown to be greatly exaggerated?
It's hard to objectively argue 'it's there but we just haven't found it', just as it is hard to argue 'you haven't found it because it doesn't exist'.
He did have some, provided to him by the US in the 80s and used against Kurds. My best guess would be that what he had left was destroyed either just prior to the conflict or more likely during the 'fog of war' that comes with major combat.
We'll see.
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Sent you the E-Mail via your profile. Let me know if you didn't get it.
Best way to end the wager is follow the terms of the wager, I'd think. You know... do what was agreed, be a man of your word. The whole responsibility/accountability aspect of life.
Yeah, if he lied, I'd vote to impeach, wouldn't you? Oh, wait... no you wouldn't. :)
He'll be replaced at the next election if the Iraq invasion was a put up job. I have that much faith in the public. OTOH, like I said, 90 days is a pretty short of a complete and 100% correct"after action summary".
You weren't shouted down. You had your say, I assume you wrote you US Representatives and Senators and then the system functioned.
Or did you want to go to a system where it's a "pure" democracy and every single voter votes on every single issue?
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Originally posted by culero
Good point :)
I can only plead that I was struck senseless by the irony of seeing a German say "Sorry, I can`t take a country seriously whose leader takes it to war on unchecked allegations."
culero (thx for the tip, BTW)
*Plonk*
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Read about the Ronald McDonald house here (http://www.rmhc.com/)
They do a lot of good things for ill children and parents of ill children, among many other things.
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Originally posted by Dowding
What's a Ronald McDonald house? Some kind of charity that McDonalds contributes to?
Its a REALLY worthy private charity.
All over the nation, Ronald McDonald houses are setup within the vicinity of hospitals. People from out of town who have loved ones in those hospitals may stay at a Ronald McDonald house free of charge. There are communal kitchen facilities, and an onsite manager who will arrange local transportation as necessary, etc.
When our grandson was born (2 pound premie) my wife was able to stay directly across the street from the hospital (1000+ miles from our home) at a Ronald McDonald house for over a month. We were not only much better able to afford her being there in that time of need, but Rebecca had a built-in support group there amongst the other people there for similar reasons. It was a real Godsend.
culero
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Originally posted by Skuzzy
Read about the Ronald McDonald house here (http://www.rmhc.com/)
They do a lot of good things for ill children and parents of ill children, among many other things.
Wow, the scope's even wider than I was aware. Thx Skuzzy.
culero
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Yep, RMH is a pure good deal. One of the few and ya gotta know 'em when ya see 'em.
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Really is a heck of an organization.
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A worthy institution to lose a bet to. Nice one.
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Devious quote: "In short I see liars, dilletancy, and greed for power. And an american people so dumbed down they don`t even object."
This last sentence is infuriating. Here you go, making very generalized and racist comments about our populace.
Let me educate you on the mindset of the majority of the populace here Devious, although you seem perfectly content to make foolish presumptions with little information and from several thousand miles away: The hardline democrats have no solid agenda to push so they are taking every chance to discredit the current administration, thus they are crying "foul" over the WMD issue. The bulk of the populace, dems and repubs alike are still willing to give our government the time to find the WMD's. In short, the wise feel it is too early to "object". We're not "dumb", we're still waiting. You can rest asssured though, most grossly uninformed person, that if it indeed turns out that the administration was deliberately misleading us, both dem and repub alike will be calling for Bush's head. Politcal leanings will mostly be tossed aside if it does indeed turn out that we were purposefully misled. Funny though, when it was proven that Clinton was a cook and an adulterer, the far left made any number of excuses to justify the immorality of Bill. These same fools are screaming for Bush's head before the jury is out... typical left foolishness. The difference is, the right will not stand for that type of behavior in our leader, we will turn our backs on Bush if he was wagging the dog.
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Steve,
I don`t mean to label all americans as dumb. "The americans" don`t exist, as "the germans" or "the jews" or "the women" don`t. The general public seems to be *dumb* in the sense they eat all the bull**** the administration feeds them. It`s not only alleged WMD, it`s Total Information Awareness, it`s The Responsibilities of Freedom, it`s Project New American Century, it`s The War On Terrorism (err you can`t declare war on individuals...), it`s having a president that through his contacts manipulated the ballot (right word?).
Where`s the pressure ? A (post-WW2) german politician`s days in office would`ve been over long ago.
Note I also think the germans are dumb. Breaking their own civil rights (see flight passenger data sent to the US - plainly in violation of our rights), hailing surveillance measures just like "the americans".
I don`t want blind, agenda-driven protest. I`m missing guys who SPEAK THE F**K UP and DEMAND EXPLANATIONS other than "I didn`t read the dossier" or "I don`t recall" (like our beloved Chancellor Kohl)
Someone who leads a country to war by basically repeating over and over again reasons that are later found to be in fact fabricated --- nonwithstanding the fact Saddam needed to be removed, and he worked on WMD (with, shamefully, german technology) --- should be out of office in a hurry. EVEN if they find WMD later.
I would have had no objection to a line like "we got to stop this mass-murdering dictator". But "WMD ready at a 45 minutes notice" were clearly a lie.
And accepting such a charade is *dumb*. So to clear it up: If I say "the americans are dumb enough...." I don`t pick upon thinking individuals. I`m about a quiet, *dumb* mass that wouldn`t speak up when THEY - the administration - would deport blacks (or whites or jews), wage war, build concentration camps, steal billions of tax dollars or marks, undermine civil rights and so on.
It`s not even the Bush administration preaching war on fabricated facts when they could have had a good real reason - it`s that they believe (and probably rightly so) THEY CAN GET AWAY WITH IT. Believing the *dumb* masses won`t speak up and make like they didn`t notice beeing lied to.
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Cool Devious, thanks for clearing up the "dumb" thing for me.
:)
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Originally posted by devious
Steve,
I don`t mean to label all americans as dumb. "The americans" don`t exist, as "the germans" or "the jews" or "the women" don`t. The general public seems to be *dumb* in the sense they eat all the bull**** the administration feeds them. It`s not only alleged WMD, it`s Total Information Awareness, it`s The Responsibilities of Freedom, it`s Project New American Century, it`s The War On Terrorism (err you can`t declare war on individuals...), it`s having a president that through his contacts manipulated the ballot (right word?).
Where`s the pressure ? A (post-WW2) german politician`s days in office would`ve been over long ago.
Note I also think the germans are dumb. Breaking their own civil rights (see flight passenger data sent to the US - plainly in violation of our rights), hailing surveillance measures just like "the americans".
I don`t want blind, agenda-driven protest. I`m missing guys who SPEAK THE F**K UP and DEMAND EXPLANATIONS other than "I didn`t read the dossier" or "I don`t recall" (like our beloved Chancellor Kohl)
Someone who leads a country to war by basically repeating over and over again reasons that are later found to be in fact fabricated --- nonwithstanding the fact Saddam needed to be removed, and he worked on WMD (with, shamefully, german technology) --- should be out of office in a hurry. EVEN if they find WMD later.
I would have had no objection to a line like "we got to stop this mass-murdering dictator". But "WMD ready at a 45 minutes notice" were clearly a lie.
And accepting such a charade is *dumb*. So to clear it up: If I say "the americans are dumb enough...." I don`t pick upon thinking individuals. I`m about a quiet, *dumb* mass that wouldn`t speak up when THEY - the administration - would deport blacks (or whites or jews), wage war, build concentration camps, steal billions of tax dollars or marks, undermine civil rights and so on.
It`s not even the Bush administration preaching war on fabricated facts when they could have had a good real reason - it`s that they believe (and probably rightly so) THEY CAN GET AWAY WITH IT. Believing the *dumb* masses won`t speak up and make like they didn`t notice beeing lied to.
No...you dont get it. The US see itself as the guy on the whitehorse doing the right thing. We viewed Saddam as a mad man, a butcher and a threat to us. We didnt support the war due to the fear of WMD's really. We supportrd it because we though here was a chance for us to make a postive difference rather than letting him continue his ways w/us turning our heads.
There is a REASON why the polls show that even if WMD's arent found..we still feel the war was justified.
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Originally posted by Toad
I remain of the opinion that 90 days isn't all that much time.
Isn't it ironic that the same people who scoffed at giving UN weapons inspectors more time are now asking for just that?
:rolleyes:
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What? You aren't going to give the current inspection team 12 years? Isn't that what you gave the UN team?
:D
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Originally posted by Toad
What? You aren't going to give the current inspection team 12 years? Isn't that what you gave the UN team?
The initial UN team got results less than a month after they arrived in Iraq in June of 1991. They intercepted a convoy of trucks trying to move parts of Iraq's nuke program late in that month. In August, 2 months after they had arrived, they had identified that Iraq had built a much larger than previously known bio weapons program and had located several key bio weapon facilities. By May of 1992, they had discovered chemical WMD and by July of 1992 they had begun to destroy those chemical WMD.
By 1997 UNSCOM had destroyed or verified the destruction of:
38,537 filled and empty chem weapon munitions
480, 000 liters (690 tonnes) of chem weapon agents
>3000 tonnes of precursor chemicals
8 types of delivery systems
The al-Hakam bio weapon production facility
426 pieces of chem weapon production equipment
91 pieces of related analytical instruments
131 Scud missiles
15 mobile launchers
28 operational fixed launch pads
32 fixed launch pads under construction
30 chemical missile warheads
All of this while being harassed and even shot at or detained by Saddam's government. The inspectors were not allowed to use helicopters nor did they have unfettered access to question employees at suspect facilities. Nor could they offer rewards (financial or otherwise) that could offset the disincentives that Saddam would have imposed on anyone who talked.
I agree that 3 months is too short, but our teams should be able to locate something major if given a six months to a year...if it exists. Especially now that they can conduct an unfettered search.
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Originally posted by 10Bears
Thx Nash, but today is the 17th not the 19th..
Hey 10B... I don't know why the 19th is what you're looking at . Maybe it's 3 months ago on the 19th that the cessation of hostilities was declared? I forget now what that date was, but I went back to that post and counted 90 days from it. And it landed here on the 17th of July. The bet wasn't 3 months - it was 90 days.
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Originally posted by Maniac
Why didnt you djust say : We are gonna start an war with Iraq to remove Saddam from power.
Things would have been so much easier then...
Let's not forget that it was the UN that said Iraq was not in compliance with it's disarmament obligations. Why is it that the UN agreed Saddam probably had WMD, but now everyone is pointing the finger at the US for lying about them?
The UN's last resolution says it all, only the UN was and is incapable of acting to back up it's words.
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Well, Nash, it's good to see it meant enough to you to count the days. :)
10B, haven't got an email from ya with an address as yet.
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Originally posted by crowMAW
but our teams should be able to locate something major if given a six months to a year...if it exists. Especially now that they can conduct an unfettered search.
Yep, agree totally.
But I still think it's funny that guys that were howling about giving "more time" a UN team that had had 12 years... with the result that the Security Council passed 1441 unanimously... are now howling at us after 3 months. I mean.. hypocrisy or what?
Just one of those things that makes me smile.
Come a year, when the Prez campaign is gaining speed and no WMD, I assure you I won't be smiling at G. Bush.
I'll give him enough rope. But it snubs up short right around May of 2004. But that's just me.
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May 2004?
I guess I misunderstood... I thought the bet I made with you involved you writing letters asking for Bush's head - after 6 months. Forget the money. That's just something you wanted to throw in because you said you'd be doing the letter writing whether you bet me or not.
But as I've said repeatedly, that's the only thing that mattered to me. Are you saying now that after 6 months passes, you'll pay the 45 bucks, but won't write anyone until next year? That's not the bet I thought we made.
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Nash:
don't have any say in your government's affairs... but maybe I can get me some. If they find WMD in Iraq to a degree that you and I can reasonably consider it a threat to other nations and is clearly a violation of their '91 resolutions and 1441, and/or evidence of a nuke program that goes somewhat beyond mere blueprints (some kind of equipment/infrastructure will suffice), then I'll pay a month's worth of AH to your squaddie.
If they don't find this stuff, then you write your congressman or applicable representative asking for Bush to take a long hike.
Toad:
I'll be writing EVERY SINGLE Senator and Representative in the US demanding Bush's resignation if they don't find this stuff within a reasonable period. And I mean bunches of it and I mean validated by various newsmen and UN inspectors.
If he's sending young American's out to fight and die on on trumped up charges, I want him hung, not just in prison. And you can save this on your HD so you can confirm it matches what I'm saying if and when the time comes.
So really, you can save your $$$$, because I'll be doing it anyway. But if it makes ya feel better, I'll take yer money after 10Bears decides if he's in or out.
This is what I found, but I remember the six months too. Thought the focus of that was the money because I'd be writing the letters anyway in six months to a year. Just don't remember if that the "six months" one include the money AND the letters.
I'll write 'em at six months if you thought that was the bet, but I can tell you now that I'm not going to be as worked up about it in October as I am in May. In October, I'll be disappointed and suspicious In May, I'll be pissed because to my way of thinking, that's "if and when the time comes". In October, I'll be disappointed and suspicious.
BTW, right now, I'm neither.
Which do you want? I'm too tired/drunk to do anymore searches for what we said other than that initial agreement.
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Good deal. I'll take the letter writing in 3 months. I reckon you might do more of it later on your own account, anyway. :)
However worked up you are, or however you word it, is of course up to you. Oh - I did request a few times that you post here a copy of what you write but I don't think I've gotten an answer. I can't recall if that was officialy part of the bet or not, but I sure would appreciate it if you could enlighten myself and the rest of us here with it. Please? :) You really can keep the money... but if you insist, I'll let ya know later what charity to send it to - or if I'm gonna be greedy with it... Or maybe I make it painful for you and ask that you make the cheque out to, say, Hillary Clinton. :D
Er... I'm making it sound as if the result is a done deal... Of course anything can happen.
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Originally posted by batdog
There is a REASON why the polls show that even if WMD's arent found..we still feel the war was justified.
When did we start justifying wars with opinion polls?
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You might have been willing. The Bush administration was not. I find it odd that they would not allow Blix the time to conduct the inspections, but now bleat about needing more time.
Sandman, never tought of it this way before! :eek:
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Originally posted by Nash
I'll take the letter writing in 3 months.
I did request a few times that you post here a copy of what you write but I don't think I've gotten an answer. I can't recall if that was officialy part of the bet or not, but I sure would appreciate it if you could enlighten myself
1. I'll write at 3 months but I don't think that was part of the bet; I'm giving you this point as the act of a gentleman. As I said, I won't be all that worked up in 3 months and the letter will reflect that. I'll be worked up big time around May.
2. You requested it, I told you "no". I did say I'd send YOU a copy by E-Mail, however, it won't be for public distribution. You agreed to that, somewhere.
You previously specified a charity; I saw it in the search last night. So control your greed, that's who's getting the money. Man of your word, eh?
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Originally posted by GScholz
Looks like the UN got the job done though ...
Really in what way?
What evidence of the mass disarmament did the find, did they find buried chems. nope
Did they find the equipment used to make the weapons, that there is no question they used, nope
Did they find records to support the distraction of weapons? nope
Did they get proof of complete disarmament as required by 19 UN requirements?...nope
Did the UN ever say they have proved their disarmament...nope
Did the UN ever once claim they got the job done? nope
So you make this simple statement "Looks like the UN got the job done " and even the UN says they did not. What does that make your statement ?
answer .... a lie?
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Considering the amount of "released intelligence" thrown about before the war to prove the existance of that WMD (eg. Powell's presentation at the SC), and now just to accept the Allied military cannot inspect sites based on all this intelligence at will is unacceptable, and to deny that is stupidity of the highest order.
Originally posted by NUKE
Let's not forget that it was the UN that said Iraq was not in compliance with it's disarmament obligations. Why is it that the UN agreed Saddam probably had WMD, but now everyone is pointing the finger at the US for lying about them?
The UN's last resolution says it all, only the UN was and is incapable of acting to back up it's words.
The UN didn't fully agree with military action, or the SC would've past the last aborted resolution spelling out in plain language the need for military action.
The basis of the UN resolutions (ie. 1441) bandied about as the legal basis for the war was WMD. To turn up nothing, when we should've been swimming in the stuff should concern anyone.
Originally posted by Dowding
What's a Ronald McDonald house? Some kind of charity that McDonalds contributes to?
I thought McD house was where ever McD's was, like in this country.
Tronsky
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Uh Toad, with all due respect....
1. You're wrong. Writing the letters was always part of it, you just threw in the money because you said you'd be doing the writing anyways, so I might as well take it. It was originally 3 months, but I offered 6 months when I saw you tell 10B that despite you giving him 3 months, you weren't all that comfortable with it. It's six months, it's the writing... and your call - but it's also the 15 bucks.
2. I don't recall you giving a difinitive answer here - but fine. If you don't want to share your words with the gang here, so be it.
3. Wrong again. I said I'd give the money to Straffo - he turned it down saying to give it to charity instead. So I reckon that reverts back to me 'cause I'll decide what to do with the spoils of the bet I made with you, thanks. Don't lecture me like you did with 10B on what I want to do with it.
Kinda sucks that you're basically now saying that the writing is going to be toothless. Nothing I can do about that, obviously... though not quite what I thought I was signing up for, either.
But christ Toad - what's with the tone of your post?
"Gentleman"? "Control your greed"? "Man of your word"? Holy toejam Toad, spare me. And where the hell is this coming from?
Just because you lost one bet and you may lose another, well... You're sure getting, uhm... like... litigious or stickler-like allah-sudden. Or plain weird. It's just a bet... Lighten up. If you go back and read my posts you'll see I've been pretty loose with the terms as far as I'm concerned.
Whew... shreck me... :rolleyes:
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Look, I'm not going to go search all day nailing down exactly what was said by day/time group...
but here's a couple for you:
Nash:
"Now, if it gets into the 6 months or a year range...."
That works for me too Toad. The point is whether they're there or not... not how fast the team can dig them up. It's along the same lines as the "reasonable people can conclude" thing (wrt the WMD)... which you were fair with. So lets use the same standard for the timing as well.
Nash:
Speaking of the French... just give the month to straffo. Poor guy has taken enough abuse over this entire thing I figure..
Toad:
Done.
Straffo is your charity. WpnX is mine.
Straffo: Nash I prefer you to give money to Handicap International or MSF.
No further posts by you after you named Straffo. No further posts by you after Straffo deferred to charity. No "reckoning" needed.
You gave the month to Straffo and never rescinded that. That, as you will see if you look at the thread, is what I agreed to do: give the month to Straffo. (Three months actually... $45, same as WpnX would/will get.)
If he doesn't want it, that isn't your or my problem.. that was the bet.
I'd say by the terms of our bet, mutually agreed, that I should send the money to Straffo's AH account for 3 "free" months.
However, as a courtesy, I would let him send it to charity, either himself or I'll do it for him.
Perhaps he takes PayPal. Let him use it to light a cigar. It's HIS money. You gave it to him, I agreed to that and it never changed.
Letter writing? Yeah, it was in there. I'll write a letter to the Prez and appropriate House/Senate represenatives. I'll write what I feel at that stage of the investigation. That will fulfill the requirement and I do recall saying I'd send YOU a copy which would not be for further dissemination. There's no point in posting it here as there wouldn't really be any rational replies to what is basically my opinon. It'd just be another flamefest. Yawn.
I will therfore NOT be required to send you the one I'll be sending in the Spring time frame when I'll REALLY be pissed if no WMD have turned up.
It will be as you have chosen though. What I was expecting was that you'd want the really nasty letter. However, your eager anticipation seems to require something more immediate in the way of gratification, so you may have the much more sanguine version. If you win.
YOU are picking what you perceive to be "the toothless version." You have no idea what I'm going to say but you've already determined it will be "toothless". I said, and any review of the discussion will show, that I'll be outraged in "six months to a year." Did we agree that you would write the content or edit for me? I don't remember that.........
Well, it's 3 months now, you haven't won yet and you may or may not win. We'll see.
But I can tell you now that in six months I'll be much more suspicious but I almost certainly..... without further "suprise" revelations in the news... won't be outraged enough to send the letter you apparently crave until late Spring...about a year.
Which is totally consistent with what I said all along.
But christ Toad - what's with the tone of your post?
Yeah, Nash. $90 is just life and death for me.. it's losing the money. My life is over if I lose these two wagers. Why.. that's about... 13 six packs of the Boulevard Pale Ale I drink. The end is near.
I guess you're just a bit too eager for my taste here. A bit like the local undertaker measuring me up as I drink at the bar with friends.
You post the time limit's up for 10Bears bet and here we are 1/2 way through our time limit and you're telling me what you expect in my letter to my reps?
Yeah... I think it's the blatant overeager noodlesure attitude that leaves a bad taste.
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LOL - Why do you even care who I give the money to, if I give it to anyone at all? Hilarious. Like you said, no response from me after Straffo turned it down... now ya want to hold me to something? toejam... fine, send the money where ya want. Or KEEP it...
In fact, unless I lose, forget the whole thing. This thing just got shrecking weird in about 2 seconds flat and for the life of me I can't figure out why. What's happenin' here? Did you take offence to something I said somewhere or something?
This is stupid. If it's too much for ya, count me out. I'm not gonna bicker with you over this crap. Do whatever the hell you want.
too shreckin strange...
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Heh! I think you two should duel with flintlock pistols like real men. As it is, you come off as a couple of eunuchs engaged in a limp-wristed slapping match.
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Because a deal's a deal? A bet's a bet? Responsibility/Accountability?
You see what you offered and what I agreed to do. Why would you want to change that now?
When the result is determined, that's what should/will be done.
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Stop that Lance.. or I'll smack ya with my beaded purse.
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Let sort this out : if anyone give me money I'll give it back to Handicap International.
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I would honor that as a courtesy to you. If I lose.
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sure, fine, whatever...
You do whatever you have it in your mind that this bet entails, as you see it. I am faaaar from going to engage you in this "man of your word, eh?" type chit. It's coming from out of nowhere and is slightly too highschool for my tastes. I'm quite suprised at you.
End of discussion from over here. Whatever you end up doing is what you think this bet is about, and you won't get an argument from me.
edit: Oh I see you two have worked out where the money goes should *I* win the bet. :rolleyes: Hehe, like I said... do whatever ya want.
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Hehe..This thread is just a prelude to what's going to hit the fan next election.
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I'm thinking of Handicap International because I know their work and because I've lost a close friend who was defusing a mine.
But any other charity would be ok for me , I don't know if it's easy to give them money from non-european country.
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To me it was a money bet, just like the one with 10B, with the letter I would write "in six months to a year" copied to you as a courtesy/freebie.
To you it was obviously about the letter I would write with the money as a secondary consideration.
If you win, I'll satisfy both of your perceptions of the bet.
If I win, just do what you said you'd do and what I agreed to accept.
Simple, eh?
Obviously not.
Like I said before if they're "no show" in Spring, I'll be major pissed. Right now, I'm patient.
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And I assure you, you can't be more suprised at this than I am. Funny how perception changes.
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Why did nash seemed propelled to make this post in the first place? Isnt the 3 month bet a 10Bears/toad gig?
Doesnt that leave 3 more months for the nash/toad bet?
Im a bit perplexed by it all. It does appear however that nash started a "rub toads nose in it" type post and toad has responded in his usual factual demeanor. nash is picking a fight he cant win, even if he does win the bet.
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Look for the guy in the sun, Yeager?
Seems to me you're perplexed as to why Nash got 'involved' in the bet, yet you yourself are now getting 'involved' in their bet. That's perplexing, dude!
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So your really perplexed then? or are you just saying your perplexed for dramatic efect? And why are you getting involved with me now in a manner so similar to that which you appear to be critical of me to begin with? You want to duel or something? Ill let you take a shot at me :)
I would say Im seriosuly perplexed now -but I am concerned what negative effect that might have on you dowding.
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Don't worry about me. I'm all that and a bag of chips. :)
Have at you, sir! I demand satisfaction! (cue innuendos a-plenty)
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Are you related, in any subserviant way, to beet1e?
I think you two are in it together, somehow -Im going to get to the bottom of this :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
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Well that comes from the left-field... and the answer is no.
Are you subservient to Toad?
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The bottom line ladies is that Toad was Wrrrrrrr(Come on Fonzie)..Wrrrrong and now has to...err..pay.
Too bad Rude doesn't have the "Stones" to say the same.
:o
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Originally posted by Dowding
Don't worry about me. I'm all that and a bag of chips. :)
Have at you, sir! I demand satisfaction! (cue innuendos a-plenty)
I don’t know about all this but…
The correct retort would be: “Yeah, well, you may be all that and a bag of chips but I’m all that and a Snickers bar. Because snickers satisfies!” :D
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Dowding, I think I dont like you. Lets duel just for fun :)
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lol Zippatuh :D That would be fighting talk in junk food terminology!
Yeager - I cancelled my account at the beginning of the month. Besides, anyone will tell you I'm not a good stick. :) If AH2 comes out before I move into my new apartment I will subscribe - maybe then?
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Yeag, yer right. The very title of this thread when posted by someone other than 10Bears struck me as "Harry Highschool".
But I see that I'm the one getting tagged with that monicker. Life, eh? Gotta laugh.
Sirloin, I lost a bet. Yep. $45; end of life as I know it. Sold the house, car and dogs to cover it. I'm devastated.
But I lost on time limit. To my way of thinking the validity of the WMD claims hasn't been either proven or disproven as yet.
To exaggerate to help you understand. I may lose to both 10B and Nash on time limit and be vindicated on the actual point of the bet 10 years later when some goatherd stumbles on "Saddam's Secret WMD Stash" out in a hole in the desert.
So, relax a while yet.
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Originally posted by Yeager
Dowding, I think I dont like you. Lets duel just for fun :)
No sending luv notes in class.
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Ah... I get it now Toad. You're pissed that I made this thread... feeling that I'm "rubbing your nose in it." Fair 'nuff. I thought for sure there had to be a reason for this goofiness. And it sure did get goofy.
Maybe a little ribbing was the reason I made the thread. I don't know. If I could make a friendly suggestion though - perhaps you want to avoid these kinda bets in the future if a bit of ribbing on the outcome is gonna cause you such grief. Yegads man.
(I gotta point out that this "ribbing" consisted of merely making a post on the outcome. No commentary on it whatsoever. Oh the horror of it, huh Yeager? :eek: ;) )
If I lose the bet I sure as hell aint gonna be shocked if I hear someone say "har har" in some form or other. And of course that's exactly what I'm gonna be hearing. It's a bet afterall, not some solemn business transaction, and it comes with the territory. Not sure what you expected.
Lord knows you did your share of ribbing to get 10Bears to enter the bet with you in the first place, so confident were you. And lets not kid ourselves for a second; had 10Bears lost the bet and not you, we woulda been hearing from the entire front 15 rows of the peanut gallery here. Woulda made my apearent ribbing of you look... well, even more weak than it is. Buck up, sir. You got off easy. :)
Pardon my rambling on.
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I could rebut... and you know I could.. but I'm going to let it drop.
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lol
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Nash, toad is a squad mate but more importantly, I respect him and above all that mushy tripe I just happen to agree with him.
I will prefer simply to think of you as that dweeb that flew a nik extremely well rather than the dork that started this thread with the obvious druel that accummulates after three months sitting on pins and needles just waiting for the good guys to lose.
The Iraq affair will not be decided historically for several years and more likely a decade will pass before you and I can say "ahh, hell, so thats how it all went down". Until then you and I are simply guessing based on our respective divergent political opinions.
I still think 10bears should have started this thread. At least he would have been entitled to it.
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10bears, Just delete it. It looks silly and detracts from the fact that throughout this bet you have pretty much stayed on course and remained a gentleman about it.
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Geez...get over it already.
Have a nice day :D
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Righto Yeager, like I said... Even if you're right and this thread constitutes rubbing someone's nose in it (and wow, I really took off the gloves on this one, didn't I? I even went so far as to open a thread!...whew boy), uhm... big fricken deal.
Now, if I had said this: "Neener neener!".... then I'd agree with you. Mister, that'd be crossing a line. But alas I am not some kind of monster.
Hilarious... It's like I cheated on somebody's sister. Theeeeth... Tho thenthitive! :)
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like I said...
Even if you're right and this thread constitutes rubbing someone's nose in it
(and wow, I really took off the gloves on this one, didn't I? I even went so far as to open a thread!...whew boy),
uhm... big fricken deal.
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Sounds like a confession to me. You just blew it fella. Your game hen is cooked!
Now go to bed nash, before you say something REALLY stupid (yeah right, like thats gonna happen).
Cheerios
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d'Oh... Busted!
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Is nash somehow related to beet1e?
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
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All this chatter over a lost bet? I hope you guys aren't at my house on sundays during football season.
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Wow, with all the pouting going on over this bet, I cannot wait for the date of the next one to arrive. A++++ thread!
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Originally posted by Yeager
Is nash somehow related to beet1e?
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
And that makes sense... how?
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I cannot wait for the date of the next one to arrive.
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Apparently, neither could nash :eek:
And that makes sense... how?
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Perhaps it was merely a ploy to confuse you and keel you off center, make you trip. Think on it a spell.
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Originally posted by Yeager
Perhaps it was merely a ploy to confuse you and keel you off center, make you trip. Think on it a spell.
Uh ok Yeag. I'll do that, thanks for the tip. I wouldn't want to...you know.. trip or anything like that. I forget sometimes that the BBS is very serious business indeed. Yup yup. Gotsta be careful. But I guess that's what makes it exciting too... like this here. Probably one of the goofiest threads ever, yet you just never know what danger lurks... No sireee!
You're such a... pro. Again, thanks for the heads up Yeag!