Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: LePaul on July 17, 2003, 03:06:49 PM
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I dunno...I was watching the news yesterday and they were interviewing troops in Northern Iraq complaining about wanting to go home and saying morale is terrible.
Half of me feels bad that they are away from home in the face of danger, yada yada.
Then the other half thinks "Look, you whiner, this is what being inthe military is all about, shape up. HooRah!" (Insert blanket party).
I sure feel for em, but that troops reaction really made me wonder.
All that rough tough/kick bellybutton talk sure melted away quick on this gentleman
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Not so long ago a tour of duty lasted 12 months, before that 18 and in WW2 it went just about to the end.
Time to toughen up guys.
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i thought we fought those wars so crap like this didnt have to happen again.
I bet if we waited for our Nato buddys to join in we wouldnt have to keep our troops there for so long.
But you know saddam had tried to buy uranium from africa so we had to go in now!
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Originally posted by Scootter
Not so long ago a tour of duty lasted 12 months, before that 18 and in WW2 it went just about to the end.
Time to toughen up guys.
This was my thought too
I'm wondering what his comrades and commanding officers think...did they roll their eyes, or have a group hug and sing Kum-buy-ya ?
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Oh, and I'm sure that if interviewed, none of those troops who served 12, 18, or more months would have said that they wanted to go home. :rolleyes:
Are you fediddlein stupid? Who isn't going to want to return home? Because the guy is honest you call him a *****? Have you ever spent that long in a dangerous place?
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Wissen Sie eigentlich, mit wem Sie hier reden ?
Haben sie überhaupt gedient ?
old "joke", translation: Do you know who you`re talking to ? Did you even serve ?
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Jeez, Raub... who would want to leave that paradise?
I mean.. IRAQ!.... the chicks, the booze, the vacation weather, all the modern conveniences of life, nightly top line entertainers in the casinos......
why would the ever want to come back to the States and their families after a mere 8 months or so away?
Tough guys playing AH know war isn't pretty. They're prepared to sit at their computers for hours... I mean HOURS... at a time, despite the nagging of their wives and the wailing of their children.
Shape up troops!
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Unless the military has changed drastically since I was in, the whiners will be taken care of by their peers before long.
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
i thought we fought those wars so crap like this didnt have to happen again.
I bet if we waited for our Nato buddys to join in we wouldnt have to keep our troops there for so long.
But you know saddam had tried to buy uranium from africa so we had to go in now!
What is this WE crap here?
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we. as in the american people. If thats all you have to defend your position your in a sad state of affairs iceman or goose or whatever you call yourself.
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
we. as in the american people. If thats all you have to defend your position your in a sad state of affairs iceman or goose or whatever you call yourself.
Please note that I did not take ANY position in this thread. I just asked you a simple question about what it is you have done to include yourself in fighting "wars".
As to my handle, it is from another show much earlier than the Navy film. If that is the best you can think of as a criticism of myself you had better try harder. :rolleyes:
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If you have never served then you have no grounds to even speak on the subject...
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FWIW
I've served. Seven Years. 1987-1994
So this thread is now "unless you've served, you can't comment".
Baloney
When a big tough troop boohoos how he wants to go home, part of me feels for him, the other recalls its a VOLUNTEER service. No one held a gun to his head. Reminds me of all my National Guard peers who joined for the college benefits and were all bent when we got activated for the first Gulf War. Sorry guys, sometimes you have to earn the pay
I'm not beating up on the servicemen, heck no. Just this one fella who cried like a girl scout for NBC.
Flame at will.
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So when you were in the Gulf War you didnt want to go home? They asked he told them. I am in no way flaming. If you have served in the military then your opinion holds water cus you can relate.
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Originally posted by Martlet
Unless the military has changed drastically since I was in, the whiners will be taken care of by their peers before long.
lol too funny...think about these points.
1. Those that have laid their lives on the line in combat for America and their Gov. perhaps deserve more than most the freedom to say how they feel - they've earned that right.
2. The officers right up to the Div commander knew exactly how their troops feel - unless of course you feel that America's military professionals are incompetent fools - I don't.
3. The Military had complete control over who the journalists spoke to and could have easily required final edit on any conversations - they didn't.
4. The Military wanted to make very sure that the American people know how they feel.
Bet no stupid politicians are going to be saying "Bring it on!" or "Why do you keep asking if it's Vietnam yet?" anytime soon.
Since the occupation of Iraq will probably go on for 5 to 7 years how about the draft - then the burden of war can be placed in every household - well the less affluent one's anyway rather than being borne by the military while fat little civilians whine on bulletin boards and tell those in uniform to tough it out.
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If you have never served then you have no grounds to even speak on the subject...
*cough* bull**** *cough*
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Did you see 'Fighting the War' Schaden? Did you see how tightly the journalists were controlled? That's why this supposed 'slip-up' is so bizarre.
This wasn't a "Hey kid, just step behind this wall and tell us how you really feel - off the the record of course" kind of a deal. I know how convenient such a scenario would be for some people. This show was orchestrated and set-up by the local commanders - I can see no way this was done without their knowledge.
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Originally posted by _Schadenfreude_
lol too funny...think about these points.
1. Those that have laid their lives on the line in combat for America and their Gov. perhaps deserve more than most the freedom to say how they feel - they've earned that right.
And yet in a bizarre twist of irony, we don't have that right. That's part of being in the military. Voluntarily accepting some restrictions on the very rights that you fight to defend. Military members do not have the kind of free speech that civilians do.
For example, if you get fed up with work, you can go tell your boss off, call him all sorts of interesting and creative names, and walk out the door. If anyone in the military tried that, they could suffer non-judicial punishment at the least, court martial at worst, and if they tried to just walk out and not come back, then they're AWOL and will probably face jail time.
So no Schaden, the military has the least right to say how they feel.
(and yes, before the question comes up, I am in currently)
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Yep have been following Fighting the War and actually been impressed both by the facts that when major screw ups happen
they are shown warts and all - those shown, from the marine fished out of the water after an ambush to the Major who asks his Sergeant - not orders - to go back to sweep the ambush site in unarmoured hovercraft, the Sergeant who agrees to do it are all a credit to the British army.
The MOD did bleat a bit but far more good is done by allowing the men serving to say on camera exactly how they feel rather than censoring anything.
I also noticed that the British Army are pulling their main units out for 6 weeks home leave before sending them back in for another 3 months tour of duty.
Hell even the politicians - such as we've seen, Geoff Hoon in particular come out of it in a good light.
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Originally posted by mjolnir
And yet in a bizarre twist of irony, we don't have that right. That's part of being in the military. Voluntarily accepting some restrictions on the very rights that you fight to defend. Military members do not have the kind of free speech that civilians do.
For example, if you get fed up with work, you can go tell your boss off, call him all sorts of interesting and creative names, and walk out the door. If anyone in the military tried that, they could suffer non-judicial punishment at the least, court martial at worst, and if they tried to just walk out and not come back, then they're AWOL and will probably face jail time.
So no Schaden, the military has the least right to say how they feel.
(and yes, before the question comes up, I am in currently)
Yes that point was made by the General at the press conference in Washington after the piece was aired - stupidity at the top allowed this to happen - if the troops had been replaced by fresh troops coming into theatre for a say 6 month tour then there would have been no public embarrasing complaints.
Was it Montgomery who said "There are no bad soldiers, only bad officers?" The soldiers don't trust the politicians, they still deserve the support of the public.
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Raubvogel said :
Oh, and I'm sure that if interviewed, none of those troops who served 12, 18, or more months would have said that they wanted to go home.
Are you fediddlein stupid? Who isn't going to want to return home? Because the guy is honest you call him a *****? Have you ever spent that long in a dangerous place?
yes have you?
Of course they want to come home, they all do, are you the master of the obvious or what?
I have served, and the U.C.M.J. does not give the troops freedom of speech and they are not covered by the same rights as are the citizens (if you don't know what the UCMJ is it proves my point about your ignorance (look it up). I’m sure you are smart enough to understand why the freedom of speech thing is applied to the troops in a combat zone (think capture).
Also keep in mind you take an oath when you join up and this is all explained to you under the all VOLUNTEER military.
When they hand you a weapon and give you training you are very sure what you are in for and are going to be required to do.
If you panty wastes think (the whiners) represent all of the military , think again.
I agree no one wants to live like that but to think its going to be a cakewalk is ridicules, what should we just pack up and leave now, think that would be fair? think anyone in the world might criticize us for that?
I have been there in the past, and now have family there, they are not and their units are not wining (yes there is a few cub scouts in any unit and yes the press found them and made what they say news).
In the last 3 months there have been over 75 murders in the state of Kalifornia (look it up) why no posts about this travesty, huh! where were all the human rights lib’s when SH was killing folks at 1000's a month where.
Seems that you will find anything do down our government and this country like it is fashionable or something.
When I was in the service it was in vogue to down the chow and complain about it, guess what it was pretty damn good and we all liked it and had seconds most of the time. The point is that it was cool to whine about things and in fashion to do so, seems that way about this country also. Please at least think about your complaints and your whines as you have your freedom chow and also ask for seconds (I heard there are other chow halls not as good).
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
i thought we fought those wars so crap like this didnt have to happen again.
I bet if we waited for our Nato buddys to join in we wouldnt have to keep our troops there for so long.
But you know saddam had tried to buy uranium from africa so we had to go in now!
What do you think that the past wars were fought so we would never have to fight another war, thats a nice but bit wishfull thought.
We have few willing NATO "buddys" these days, to bad. We are learning about this and it may come up in the future when someone ask's (needs) our help, we shall see.
This is still up in the air so don't be so quick to take big bites of this issue either way. Seems that things are not as they seem right now, stay tuned.
If Saddam had nothing to hide and was in compliance with the UN he really missed an opertunity to make W look real bad, end the sanctions and keep his cush job and his country. If that is the case.. bad call SH.
I think he had a lot to hide and we will find it. (we were still learning about Germany 5 years after the war)
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how many did the media clowns have to interview to find the whiners? they only televise the ones who help build their story/liberal slanted view..
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Troops whining? Did you happen to catch the rank? Yeah everyone gets tired and a burned out but it’s the job you're assigned and do not have a choice in the matter. Suck it up and do it. The soldier doesn’t get the choice to think, just act on what is given to them.
2:30 in the AM, South Korea, field exercise, January.
Combat engineer’s to lay multiple obstacles for the mechanized attack suspected the next day
A low lying part of a dirt road with a hill on one side, high bank the other, and about 2 feet of standing water across it.
lay seven rolls of concertina with pickets across the road and through the water using the water (ice) as an anchor as well. We had to prove to the M1 jocks that yes we can stop your tank with razor wire.
Troop 1: This sucks, what the hell are we doing. It’s 2:30 and I’m tired. There is no reason for us to do this. I’m wet and cold, when are we going back to tent city. I’m tired of carrying pickets. (over and over and over – well at least twice anyway)
Team A leader (me): STFU! The quicker we get done the quicker we’ll be in our racks. Why are we doing it? You don’t get the right to ask why. Someone with some stars say’s something to someone with bars who says something to someone with rockers who comes down and tells us to stand in the watermelon and lay wire. So, you want to go ask the man why we’re here? Quit crying and get to work.
He did.
Oh, and yes, seven rolls of wire will stop a tank :D.
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All servicemen and women want to go home when they are abroad. It doesnt mean moral is low - but dont let me ruin it for you - Im sure Fox picked the most accurate 30 seconds of the 10 minute interview to air.
"I miss my family and cant wait to see them."
THERE you have it folks!! American Troop moral has hit rock bottom!! There are reports circling that mass defections are taking place in all units, stay tuned for our retraction!
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Troopies griping is a cherrished "right" that has passed down from before the Roman phalaxes were used. It happens and it's part of having human beings in the line of fire and doing other nasty jobs that most folks wouldn't even think about doing.
What I see going on here is an enhancement of the situation courtesy of the media. Hell yes the troops want to be home and with their families and away from that particular deity forsaken peice of the earth. No sane person would want to be in their shoes right now. The problem is the media already starting to replay the same recording used in the late 60's and early 70's. Any complaints are seen as a demoralized force in the zone. Lets face it, that type of coverage gets the media the attention they want to sell their wares. Good news doesn't sell, bad new does. The more drama they can inject into it the better.
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I was never a soldier.
But I am human.
So purely from a common human perspective I know they are people who have been away from home and family for almost a year so I know they will want to be home and not in some desert not doing the sort of thing we are all told they train for. I know they are frustrated by having their stay repeatedly extended. So I understand how they are dubly upset even without factoring in some sort of combat stress - which of course I know nothing out.
But AFAIK the military has some rules about frredom of speech and public criticizm of leadership by soldiers and this clearly seems to violate it.
Tough issue here, no?
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Grun,
There are statutes in the UCMJ that prohibit the overt criticism of superiors. The statement about demanding the resignation of the folks in charge would do it, if it were followed up on. On the other hand you do have to allow for some lattitude on the part of those who have been the "tip of the spear" for some time in unfriendly territory. Most of this is likely to have been blown out of proportion and is eagerly used as "proof" of problems with the miltary or troops. On the other hand, coming down real hard on troopies who spoke to the press WOULD be an indicator of problems. Almost like a catch 22 here and it calls for walking a fine line.
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Thats what I was alluding too, time for some good mid management here..
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Originally posted by Scootter
Raubvogel said :
Oh, and I'm sure that if interviewed, none of those troops who served 12, 18, or more months would have said that they wanted to go home.
Are you fediddlein stupid? Who isn't going to want to return home? Because the guy is honest you call him a *****? Have you ever spent that long in a dangerous place?
yes have you?
Just to set the record straight, I'm going on my 14th year of Army service, and I spent 9 months in SW Asia during the last Saddamapalooza. After 6 months I was told I was going home, then a week later I found out I had to stay 3 months more. **** yeah I was pissed off, who wouldn't be? These guys were told they had to do a job, they did it. Now they find out the job isn't finished. It's human nature to get pissed off at **** like that. Volunteer service or not, it sucks.
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Well, when you sign up, they own you. And you do what they tell you till your time is up. You join with the understanding you can go anywhere at anytime.
When a soldier voices his displeasure about being there, that's one thing, and I have no problem with that. But I think that deck of cards thing about rummy went a little too far. They shouldn't be making derogatory remarks about their superiors. Aside from that, I have no problem with what was said.
Was this aired on arab television? I wonder if this will change the attitude of the locals, will they throw more rocks, or less? I'm hoping the locals will have some sympathy for the troops, but i'm not betting on it.
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As Maverick says griping is a cherished right in the military. All soldiers everywhere volunteers or not moan about their situation they find themselves in. It's easy for us REMF's (look it up) and civvies sitting here in cosy safety to tell them to 'toughen up' or 'suck it up'.
Of course they want to go home, who wouldn't. I'll bet the grumbles not aired would make certain politicians hair stand on end. Criticising Politicans is par for the course after all they are the people who put them there in mortal danger thousands of miles from home. Politicians are not 'their superiors' Their Officers are their leaders, criticising them on camera would be unacceptable. But in the army or not they are still Americans who believe they have the right to criticise their politicial leaders.
Criticising the 'The left liberal media' for reporting this is off base too. What do you want? Fox news in there reporting that the 'boys are all saying "bring them on" or we'll stay as long as it takes' . Or some other propaganda exercise. Do you want some form of Baghdad Ali type reporting from the media, a slant that suits your political agenda?
In the end the troops will do their duty. Don't expect them to enjoy it though and when the they do come home don't expect them share your love of the politicians who sent them there. War has a way of stripping out people's illusions. They'll eventually look back and take pride in what they did but right now they want to go home. Who can blame them?
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I thought sec of defense was their superior...my bad.
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Originally posted by Raubvogel
Just to set the record straight, I'm going on my 14th year of Army service, and I spent 9 months in SW Asia during the last Saddamapalooza. After 6 months I was told I was going home, then a week later I found out I had to stay 3 months more. **** yeah I was pissed off, who wouldn't be? These guys were told they had to do a job, they did it. Now they find out the job isn't finished. It's human nature to get pissed off at **** like that. Volunteer service or not, it sucks.
Then leave the service?
All your whining is doing is giving the anti-war klugs more ammo. See? We shuoldnt be there, even the troops there don't want to me there....that's the media blah blah we're getting on the radio/tv all day.
Congrats on 14 years of service, really. 6 more to retirement, pension, and recalling the good ole days, rght? :)
Being deployed isnt all fun and games.
Geez all these rah-rah/hoorah-kick bellybutton guys couldn't wait to dive into the fight. Then when the going gets tough, sadly the few whiners there are making the daily news. I don't think that's fair for the rest of the troops that are doing what they've been trained to do and sucking it up. But when's the media not over sensationalized something...:rolleyes:
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Jeez, LePaul I'm sure your advice will hit home with the guys who fought and won the war and now unreasonably want to go home and not get killed by some Iraqi patriot in a dusty ville on the other side of the world. Stop moaning guys or you'll give ammo to all those anti war klugs. Just lock and load and get on with it. We armchair heroes are with you all the way! Yo
Sixpence Superior/leader. It was a play on words. Get it??????????
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cc, re read it, although I still think the deck of cards thing was a bit much. But you make a point.
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Why would I leave the service? I love serving my country. I'd be over there again in a heartbeat if I had to. I enjoy defending the freedoms of people who sit 15,000 miles away and call me soft because I would like to come home after finishing my mission.
Keeping soldiers happy is pretty easy. You give them food, mail, showers, and keep them informed. When you tell them one thing and then come back and change it over and over, you are destroying their morale.
I'm done with this thread. Sometimes you just can't get a point across to someone who hasn't been in that situation.
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The UCMJ does cover contempt towards officials but its for comissioned officers. I believe they are looking to punish the soldiers for their remarks.
888. ART. 88. CONTEMPT TOWARD OFFICIALS
Any commissioned officer who uses contemptuous words against the President, the Vice President, Congress, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of a military department, the Secretary of Transportation, or the Governor or legislature of any State, Territory, Commonwealth, or possession in which he is on duty or present shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.
As a NCO I would not voice my anger towards my superiors or complain about going home. It would look bad plus funnel down to my troops. I would not keep any troop serving under me from voicing their complaints, but I would have simply told them to be mindful of what they say. The deck of cards comment crossed the line.
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Just for a moment think what would happen if an interviewed troop said somthing to the effect of...
" hell no I don't want to go home, this is cool stuff here, I get to shoot dinks and blow stuff up when ever I need to, and the perks wow look at all the neet stuff I have found in these old buildings"
" yes sir bub this is the life, no rain like back in Nam. and the food is a lot better, I'm staying right here."
Do you think they would get help, probably, but you would never hear or read the interview.
This is normal stuff, don't eat the crap the press is feeding, they will squeak but you can bet they will get the job done.
Semper Fi ya'll
:cool:
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Originally posted by Raubvogel
Why would I leave the service? I love serving my country. I'd be over there again in a heartbeat if I had to. I enjoy defending the freedoms of people who sit 15,000 miles away and call me soft because I would like to come home after finishing my mission.
Keeping soldiers happy is pretty easy. You give them food, mail, showers, and keep them informed. When you tell them one thing and then come back and change it over and over, you are destroying their morale.
I'm done with this thread. Sometimes you just can't get a point across to someone who hasn't been in that situation.
I agree that if they've been told they can go, then cancel it...twice, that that is unfair...and yes, hurts morale. But geezus, don't you think its inherently stupid as a troop to whine on national tv that you wanna go home?
I support the troops and have been at the airport here helping greet the ones that are heading home.
I see your point, but I do not think you see mine. Instead you seem to ignore it, acting aloof, that unless we've been there, we cant comment...
..anyways...
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Originally posted by Raubvogel
I'm done with this thread. Sometimes you just can't get a point across to someone who hasn't been in that situation.
I've been in that situation. I'd bet the majority of people that have served have been in that situation, whether it involved combat or not. Ther service is notorious for changing their plans. "Hurry up and wait".
When you raise your hand and take that oath, you are agreeing to to more than 3 squares and a paycheck. You are agreeing to serve the needs of your country, whatever they may be. This whole problem stems from them TRYING to keep the troops informed. Perhaps they'd be better off to just tell them "you'll get home when you get home". When they plane pulls up to fly them away, they'll know they are leaving. No misinformation that way.
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You know, I don't care what they say. Been there. Done that. I was in the 1st one. I got there late. So I voluntered to stay behind and let the rest of the Battilion go home. I didn't have a family to go home to. But I was in country only 4 moths. So I can understand how them might feel after being there for so long. And having the chane of comman keep changing your departure date. I'd be pissed off at them. But then that would be letting off steam. And I would still do my job. You can bet that they may be pissed off at their leadership at the top. But they will still do their job to the best.
But if the top leadership cann't come up with a better way of rotation, you just screwed your troops. We have troops in places we need to bring home. Bosnia and Kosivo for 2. Europe should be doing that job. If they don't want to help in Iraq, then they can take over the mission there. After all, it's their back yard.
We are starting to get really short of troops. Too many places right now.
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
i thought we fought those wars so crap like this didnt have to happen again.
Yeah...and wasnt WW1 the war to end all wars? I mean whats up with that?
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Oh...and as for troops whining...the brits have it right. If the grunts stop whining, THEN there's somethings wrong. Geez, havet you been in the army?