Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: davidpt40 on July 18, 2003, 09:52:26 PM
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Just heard on history channel that 19 F-14s were lost due to uncontrolled spins after compressor stalls. This was before the GE engines were installed in 1984.
Thats alot of F-14s. So what was the problem? Did both engines tend to flame out at the same time or did the yaw from a single flame-out throw the F14 into a spin?
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They didnt mention anyone dieing in the incidents now did they? So why would you say "Ensign Eliminator"? I suspect most of those incidents were in flight test and training. I hope you are aware that the aircraft have a very capable ejection seat system, and it is doubtful that even one pilot was lost in the spins. Nobody spins a jet close to the ground, nor would they do anything that might precipitate a spin at low altitude.
Who cares why the engines would flame out, they replaced them with better engines.
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I was more saddened to hear that the total number of F-14's sold to the Iranians during the late '70's was 79. That in itself was saddening considering nearly an 1/8th of all F-14's ever produced are languishing in a desert hell (a few probably in Soviet hands back then too)
Well, so be it...
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Originally posted by davidpt40
Just heard on history channel that 19 F-14s were lost due to uncontrolled spins after compressor stalls. This was before the GE engines were installed in 1984.
Thats alot of F-14s. So what was the problem? Did both engines tend to flame out at the same time or did the yaw from a single flame-out throw the F14 into a spin?
Problem? Take a good look at that aircraft. If one engie goes out, asymetric thrust can be a huge problem.
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Sandman,
F14 has the engines quite close to each other though..
But if one engine flames out, this close proximity might not be good if there isnt sufficient firewalls and systems...
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They didnt mention anyone dieing in the incidents now did they? So why would you say "Ensign Eliminator"? I suspect most of those incidents were in flight test and training. I hope you are aware that the aircraft have a very capable ejection seat system, and it is doubtful that even one pilot was lost in the spins. Nobody spins a jet close to the ground, nor would they do anything that might precipitate a spin at low altitude.
Who cares why the engines would flame out, they replaced them with better engines.
Your joking right? I can think of 3 right off the top of my head.
(1) Prototype F14- Test pilot killed
(2) That woman pilot. Left engine stalled while she was making a landing. Her RIO ejected first, she ejected into the water and died.
(3) Nashville Tn. F14 pilot takes off and does a few maneuver because his parents are watching. Engine stalls and both pilot/rio are killed.
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Fishu IIRC these two engined planes are having pretty good protective walls between engines for turbine failures etc.
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Staga,
Like said.. "IF" :D
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Originally posted by Fishu
Sandman,
F14 has the engines quite close to each other though..
But if one engine flames out, this close proximity might not be good if there isnt sufficient firewalls and systems...
Go take a good look at an F15 or F18 and then go look at the Tomcat. There is a huge amount of space in there.
(http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/f14_defense_supress.jpg)
(http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/f-15c-dfst9011899.jpg)
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Originally posted by davidpt40
(3) Nashville Tn. F14 pilot takes off and does a few maneuver because his parents are watching. Engine stalls and both pilot/rio are killed.
I don't think that is right....or perhaps Im thinking of another incident involving an F-14 showing off....he went thru clouds, got disoriented and augered.
I could be wrong, but recall one such incident like that
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yea i remember the TN one. The finally put in the spin software not long after that incident. The plane was basically unrecoverable in a flat spin. Not all F-14s now days have the new engines, although most do.
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What about Goose? He died due to flat spin.
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Originally posted by Furious
What about Goose? He died due to flat spin.
That is actually one of the few things that movie got right...apparently the canopy tends to "hang" around the airframe due to aero forces, and the backseat usually hits it on the way out. Several RIO's have been lost this way IRL.
The old TF-30 engine in the F-14A had it's share of problems, but the F110 engine in the B and D models has also had problems resulting in lost airframes and crew. Stuff happens.
Lepaul, my memory of that TN mishap is the same as yours. I'm going on travel in a few hours, so I don't have time to look it up to be sure.
-Smut
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Originally posted by Smut
Lepaul, my memory of that TN mishap is the same as yours. I'm going on travel in a few hours, so I don't have time to look it up to be sure.
-Smut
Thanks for checking...maybe I am thinking of something else, but I do recall a real unfortunate crash where the pilot was hot shotting, went through the cloud, came back, disoriented and wrecked killing both as both families watched :(
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Originally posted by Furious
What about Goose? He died due to flat spin.
Damnit! lol. That's the first thing I thought of too :)
I need to keep up better lol.
-Sik
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I remember that Crash in 1996. I remember allegations in the news that he was showing off for his parents (although I can't seem to find them on the web) but the Navy's official version is that he became dissoriented in the clouds.
http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/news/navnews/nns96/nns-spcl.txt
-Sik
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WASHINGTON (NNS) -- The Navy announced today that pilot
error was the cause of the F-14 accident in Nashville, Tenn.,
Jan. 29 which killed five people. Pilot LCDR Stacy Bates of
Chattanooga, Tenn., and radar intercept officer LT Graham
Alden Higgins of Dover-Foxcroft, Maine, died in the crash,
which also killed Mr. Elmer Newsom and his wife, Ada Newsom,
and Mr. Ewing T. Wair, who were in the Newsom home, which was
destroyed by the aircraft.
After ten weeks of careful research, analysis and
deliberation, investigators found that the the aircraft had
taken off in an extreme nose-up altitude into an overcast
cloud layer of 2,300 feet and reached 4,600 feet before
rapidly descending down through the clouds. The report
concludes that the pilot was unable to recover, and the
fighter crashed into a neighborhood south of the Nashville
airport. According to the investigation, neither crewmember
attempted to eject from the aircraft.
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Yup, that's the one...wow...the RIO was from around here (30 miles from me)
Sad, especially for the people on the ground who died
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Originally posted by Fishu
But if one engine flames out, this close proximity might not be good if there isnt sufficient firewalls and systems...
Why do you need a firewall for a jet engine flame out?
-SW
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That is actually one of the few things that movie got right...apparently the canopy tends to "hang" around the airframe due to aero forces, and the backseat usually hits it on the way out. Several RIO's have been lost this way IRL.
Aerodynamic forces which kep the canopy above the cockpits? Wrong.
At least up until the early 90's, no pilot or RIO had been killed in this manner. Unless the aircraft is dropping straight down without any spin or forward momentum, the chance of hitting the canopy is minimal.
Basically, in the movie Topgun, they wanted a way to kill off that character and they came up with this. The yaw due to one engine out isn't as bad as everyone thinks ever since the movie Topgun.
I would think the SU-27 is more succeptible to adverse yaw due to engine out.
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Originally posted by Smut
That is actually one of the few things that movie got right...apparently the canopy tends to "hang" around the airframe due to aero forces, and the backseat usually hits it on the way out. Several RIO's have been lost this way IRL.
The old TF-30 engine in the F-14A had it's share of problems, but the F110 engine in the B and D models has also had problems resulting in lost airframes and crew. Stuff happens.
Lepaul, my memory of that TN mishap is the same as yours. I'm going on travel in a few hours, so I don't have time to look it up to be sure.
-Smut
sucks to be a RIO..you don't get to fly the plane and still, you're more at risk. :p
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The F-14's saftey record is well within normal paramaters for a high performance fighter.. and is exemplary among carrier based types.
It certainly does NOT have a reputation among it's pilots as a 'bad' airplane.. in fact quite the opposite is the case.
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now the Harrier on the other hand......
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Originally posted by davidpt40
(3) Nashville Tn. F14 pilot takes off and does a few maneuver because his parents are watching. Engine stalls and both pilot/rio are killed.
That was pilot error and not a malfunction of the aircraft. According to the Navy's investigation report, the crash in Nashville was caused when the pilot lost control of the aircraft because of vertigo experienced as a result of an unrestricted climb into the clouds. There was no mechanical malfuntion found with the F-14A or its TF30 engines.
Ack-Ack