Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Ike 2K# on July 20, 2003, 02:03:52 AM
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would this be a great add-on for AH2?
(http://www.aerofiles.com/repub-p47m.jpg)
perk the air supperiority P-47M in the ranges between the Spit14, Ta-152H, F4U-4, and Tempest. Also perk the "pound-for-ground" P-47N in F4U-1C's perk range.
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Perk a 480mph fighter at 20 points?
LOL.
Why don't we just unperk all the other prop fighters then?
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the M would make a real good perk plane.
Personally, I'd rather see the N model - a late 44 model with preformance close to those p-51/190D9 and a terrific range (fuel porkers wont stop this one). and the N model saw a lot more use then the M. It would not even be perked.
or even better - P-47D23, a razorback with paddle blade prop and ability to carry ordnance under the wings.
Bozon
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id also like to see the N before the M, but hey... ill take what i can get :)
1816 N's where made and only 130 M's
(http://home.att.net/~Historyzone/Xp-47n.jpg)
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The M was the real monster. It was faster and climbed *much* better than the N. That woiuld mean alot more in an AH arena. BTW, 480 (actual reports were that max speeds were over 500 Mph) were accomplished at 28K+. Down where the action is, it will be just "really competetive" with the current planeset.
Bring it on:)
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hmmmm would P-47M outclass the Tempest? I would love to see this plane for 70 or 100 pts and the P-47N for 8-10 Pts
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M was the fastest piston engined ac seeing service in ww2 over europe, so yes
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i dont see the point we have 3 versions already....why not have a more interesting plane..
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:mad:
Because I drive the P47 daily and it really PISSES ME OFF to plan my escape as soon as a LA7 shows up, and that with a head start of 3000ft and diving for some initial momentum, the LA7 will catch up with you like a 262 after a Lancaster.
And because this LA7 is unperked to give a chance to the hordes of dweebs, there's a million of them ... next to a cloud of Spitfires.
And if you happened to be one on one, you fight D9s and G10s and other "high perfs" machines that makes your life miserable.
So give the dedicated P47 pilots something more competitive they can use.
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Frenchy,
A more competetive P-47 would be nice, I just don't see how it can be a freebie. I understand exactly where you're coming from in regards to the La-7 though. That aircraft means death to so many interesting aircraft even with a significantly better pilot in control of the death trap.
To me the La-7 is just as deadly as the F4U-4, Spitfire Mk XIV and Tempest could hope to be, and more deadly than the F4U-1C and Ta152H-1.
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Hear hear.
Frankly, in regards to "balance", 10% usage is more than enough to justify a perk. The La-7 hits all the major categories exept one, when considering a perk candidate: rarity(3xB20), balance(10% usage), performance(on par with the 70 point Tempest in speed, outperforms it in maneuverability). The only major category which the La-7 doesn't fit to is the multi-role aspect.
But I digress..
I agree with Karnak, but at the same time, I feel for Frenchy, too. P-47N would be nice, probably perked a little bit heavier than the Ta152. However, for an overall environment where P-47s could really be more confident, the alternative I see, lies with my NPA.
Perk the La-7 at 3~5 points, along with its contemporaries in era and performance. Shift the MA into a '43 environment - in that environment, the P-47D-11 is one of the fastest planes, both at alt and at deck. Just about enough speed advantage to make up for its other characteristics which fall behind.
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selector, we also have 5 spit and 109 models as well.
I see that we need other planes to but we still can want the M or N if we like.
I like the challenge of the jugs we have but it would be nice to have a better jug to.
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Frenchy has a point.... the la7 outclasses every unperked US plane in speed except the p51 above 7-8k
it outclasses german planes in same reguard.....
it outclasses RAF planes that are unperked .. just barely (tiffie)
allowing a late war jug would be completely fair in this light....but i'd be all for a perked la7 of 10 pts or so.... but I doubt HTC will do that with the idiot-proof-mobile
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the N preformance isn't THAT great - about a p-51's. unless you want to fly it at 30k where even the D11 will be as good as the 51 or better.
down low it would still be slower then the p-51/La7/Dora/G10 and climbrate would not exeed 3000 fpm.
I suport Kweassa's perk agenda so if it have to be perked, perk it by less then 10.
Bozon
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N has better range, armour, rollrate and carries ord... the M "only" had 6x50 cal but was later refitted for ext stores
ill find the source tomorrow
"In mock combat with a P-47D-25-RE, the new fighter proved to be notably superior in every category of performance. In short, the XP-47 waxed the venerable D model regardless of who was piloting the older fighter. The new wing was part of this newfound dogfighting ability, however, the more powerful C series engine played a role too. The additional horsepower allowed the N to retain its energy better than the older Thunderbolt. Perhaps the greatest performance increase was in maximum speed. Though not as fast as the stunning P-47M, the heavier N was fully 40 mph faster than the P-47D-25-RE and could generate speeds 30 mph greater than its principal rival, the Mustang. Scorching along at 467 mph @ 32,000 ft., the N could not be caught by any fighter in regular service with any air force on earth with the single exception of its M model sibling. This combination of wing and engine had pushed the N model up to the top rank of the superlative prop driven fighters then in existence."
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I'm with Frenchy on this one, I drive the Jug more than I do any other plane.
Besides, it's been almost three years since Pyro teased us with that poll about late war variants, and there are only three planes left from that list that have not been added, while we've seen several models added that were not on that list, like the Me163, Stuka, and P-40 models.
It's time for another Jug IMO, preferably the M model. The N would be faster than the Pony and Dora, and have more range than a Pony, but I want the raw "hot rod" performance the M model offered. Like a 4K+ climb rate, able to hang with the 109's in a climb. Wouldn't that be nice? ;)
Anyway, time will tell. I'm at a crossroads myself, just waiting to see what AH2 will offer. I've toyed with the idea of just hanging it up if the upgrade is just going to be more of the same, but I don't want to make that decision until the product is on the market and we are playing it.
All the BS about "already have 3 P-47's don't need anymore" in one breath and "we need a G-14 and a K-4, and a 190D-12" in the other breath is nothing more than hypocrisy. We've got more variants of the 109 than any other plane except the Spitfires, so based on the number of variants of those planes, we don't need anymore of them, right?
Okay, rant mode OFF:
I hope HTC adds the P-47M or N in the not so distant future.
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Originally posted by Karnak
To me the La-7 is just as deadly as the F4U-4, Spitfire Mk XIV and Tempest could hope to be, and more deadly than the F4U-1C and Ta152H-1.
You really have to lay off the booze.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Kweassa
Hear hear.
Frankly, in regards to "balance", 10% usage is more than enough to justify a perk. The La-7 hits all the major categories exept one, when considering a perk candidate: rarity(3xB20), balance(10% usage), performance(on par with the 70 point Tempest in speed, outperforms it in maneuverability). The only major category which the La-7 doesn't fit to is the multi-role aspect.
You forgot one more catagory, game unbalance and the La7 doesn't fit into that catagory. As you well know, the perks are decided on whether or not a particular plane would cause an unbalance in the arena if unperked and clearly, the La7 does not.
It's only redeeming quality is its speed. The cannons are low velocity, requiring you to get close, it's not a very good turner and it's performance drops off when above 16k and even more so above 20k. Frankly, there are other planes that are for more of a threat and deadly than the La7.
Ack-Ack
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
You really have to lay off the booze.
ack-ack
How so?
The La-7 will run me down, out everything me and kill me if the pilot is even remotely in control of what he is doing.
How could that possibly be less deadly than the F4U-4, Spitfire Mk XIV or Tempest? Hell, its deadlier than the Spitfire Mk XIV because it'll run me down faster.
Maybe you should lay off the crack?
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The La-7, maneuvers a lot better than you think. It is virtually a plane very simular to the Tempest in so many aspects, except it maneuvers even better than the Tempest.
The only disadvantage the La-7 has against the Tempy, is that its cannons suck, it has a teensey lower acceleration and top speed(what, about 1~2 mph at deck?).
Don't tell me quad Hispanos are worth those 70 perks, because I have a feeling that a lot of those 70 points have to do with how the plane performs in speed. The Tempest also starts lagging over 17k.
So if the Tempy is at 70, why's the La free?
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I think HTC put La-7 in this game because they want us to fight beyond 10,000 meter altitude:rolleyes:, BTW 10K meters is where the La-7's performance deteriorates. :eek:
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Do we really need P-47M/N? Most of the P-47s we have right now are exelent "pound-for-ground" type planes that reminds me of F-105 and the F-4 phantom and La-7s and Yaks as the MiG-21 and 17.
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Sorry Akak, but the LA7 is ridiculously outperferming any "average" MA plane. Somebody of your flying skills cannot say in his right mind that the LA7 is not a factor.
Give something for everyone. 109s have their G10, FWs have their D9s/TA152, Spits have their Spit14s, Las have their LA7 ... give the P47s the M... every comon "WW2 models" could enjoy their "variant hotrod" to compete with others "variants hot rod".
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hehe, P-47M would be like putting a 1000HP HEMI engine on the Hummer H2 SUV :D
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Originally posted by Nilsen10
N has better range, armour, rollrate and carries ord... the M "only" had 6x50 cal but was later refitted for ext stores
dont let the pictures fool you, the "M" also carried 8 meat choppers (0.50 cals) :)
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Originally posted by Ike 2K#
hehe, P-47M would be like putting a 1000HP HEMI engine on the Hummer H2 SUV :D
Rofl:D
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Originally posted by SFRT - Frenchy
Sorry Akak, but the LA7 is ridiculously outperferming any "average" MA plane. Somebody of your flying skills cannot say in his right mind that the LA7 is not a factor.
Give something for everyone. 109s have their G10, FWs have their D9s/TA152, Spits have their Spit14s, Las have their LA7 ... give the P47s the M... every comon "WW2 models" could enjoy their "variant hotrod" to compete with others "variants hot rod".
It only out performs any unperked plane with its speed and that's it but even that degrades the higher you go. Its low speed performance is pretty damn crappy and quite a lot of planes, like the P-38L for one, can out turn it. I'm just going by my experience in fighting these planes and I just don't see how the La7 and even the N1K2 can be remotely considered uber by any stretch of the imagination. Sure they are good in some areas but then so are other planes and it just basically boils down to who is in control of that plane.
Ack-Ack
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Actually, Frenchy, I would say that P-47 fans are far better off than Spitfire fans in the hotrod department.
We have a mid 1942 Spitfire as our top of the line version and no sign that we will ever get a newer version and P-47 fans have the mid 1944 P-47D-30 as their top of the line version.
I'm sorry, but the Spitfire Mk XIV simply cannot be counted. It simply cannot survive its perk price and perk tag unless flown stupidly conservatively.
I'm not a bad pilot. In fact, bluntly, I am quite a bit above the average. I managed a 30 kill streak in the Mosquito without flying very conservatively. I cannot survive in the Spitfire Mk XIV. If I can't, I am absolutely certain that the average AH pilot is utterly doomed in it. What it comes down to is the fact that the Spitfire Mk XIV is simply not fast enough to get away, and it is of absolute highest priority for a perk plane to be able to disengage from the horde of free aircraft that assault it. If the Spitfire Mk XIV had been modeled with 150 octane fuel, yes, it would work, but with the 358mph max speed that it's 100 octane fuel gives it, too many freebie aircraft will run it down.
Before anybody gets their panties in a wad, let me say that I think the Spitfire Mk XIV would do very well in a one on one with any prop fighter in AH, however a one on one is very rare for a perk plane. The reality is that the Spitfire Mk XIV needs to deal with P-51Ds and La-7s which are faster than it and Spitfire Mk IXs and N1K2-Js which are more manuverable than it. In a crowd on one the Spitfire Mk XIV simply does not have what it takes to survive with anything less than an elite pilot in it.
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If only the Spit 14 had the "Spit" icon, you would survive better in it.
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Ak-ak,
Put Joe Average in an La-7 and Joe Average's clone in any other free fighter in AH and Joe Average will beat his clone more than 50% of the time.
It is that simple.
Sure, you in a P-38 can out turn the La-7. Me in a P-38 results in a dead P-38 before I ever get slow enough to drop flaps. They simply turn inside me and kill me.
Don't judge aircraft viability based on how you can handle it when you encounter it in the MA. You are a far, far better AH pilot than I am, and I am far better than the average AH pilot. Claiming it is no problem because you can easily kill it in your P-38 or because I can generally maintain a positive K/D against it in my inferior fighter does not mean that the average AH pilot has a prayer in either of our aircraft agaist the average AH pilot in an La-7. You are making a mistake when you use yourself as a yardstick.
Frenchy,
That is true, and I would consider such a Spitfire Mk XIV to be a valid uber Spit for AH.
But it is not going to happen.
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Ike 2k.... im not fooled by the picture, i read somewhere that they removed 2 guns and some armour to make it lighter and faster. Ill try to find the source for this today. :)
Lets stop fighting, we can get the M and the N, should make all us juggies happy. Put the paddleblade on the d11 to and we are all in heaven :cool:
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These are what I want more than any other planes. Eventually I'd like to see all these models, preference given to the ones at the top of the list though.
P47M (this might need to be lightly perked, but I think a high perk cost is unnecessary, plenty of stuff we already have outclimbs it, and outturns it)
P47N (this shouldn't need to be perked)
P47D-23 (last razorback Jug)
P47C (early combat model)
And if the 'rules' get broken
XP47J
XP72 <- this thing would be a an absolute monster, shame it never got used.
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P47N was used in combat a hell of a lot more than most planes in AH that are unperked.
THe La7 is a joke. Un perked and for some reason , even though every book on earth that mentions it and says that above 10k performance drops off, our LA7 suffers no setbacks.
Dont beleive me?> go take a p47D30 and an LA7 up to 28k.
see which one outperforms the other. The D30 should be all over it like a bad suit at that altitude.
I say give frenchy his P47N unperked or the M perked at same cost as say a tempest.
LOWER the cost of tempests and SPIT14 to @ 20
PERK THE DAMN LA7 for @20 too
PERK THE LATE WAR PLANESET FOR REAL LOW COST @3 to 5 perks ....... P51D , 190D-9, 109G10 , P47 D30 , P38J (add an unperked P38E/F first)
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Originally posted by SFRT - Frenchy
FWs have their TA152
Now THAT was funny.
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Don't perk anything unless there is a severe arena unbalancing. Good sticks can find the fights they want, and bad sticks won't know the difference.
Underlying all perk talk is a rolling plane set. CT has that and the new AH2 will have one.
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Originally posted by hazed-
P47N was used in combat a hell of a lot more than most planes in AH that are unperked.
THe La7 is a joke. Un perked and for some reason , even though every book on earth that mentions it and says that above 10k performance drops off, our LA7 suffers no setbacks.
Dont beleive me?> go take a p47D30 and an LA7 up to 28k.
see which one outperforms the other. The D30 should be all over it like a bad suit at that altitude.
I say give frenchy his P47N unperked or the M perked at same cost as say a tempest.
LOWER the cost of tempests and SPIT14 to @ 20
PERK THE DAMN LA7 for @20 too
PERK THE LATE WAR PLANESET FOR REAL LOW COST @3 to 5 perks ....... P51D , 190D-9, 109G10 , P47 D30 , P38J (add an unperked P38E/F first)
Amen!
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from a design perspective it may be less work for HTC to make the M tho, the exterior is very close to the D30 as far as i can see. The N would need abit more work i think. but wth, i have no idea how they make em anyway so i may be way off.
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Unbalancing is dependent upon people's perception. And for the longest time it seems every week someone is posting a thread to perk the LA7 due to its performance. Based on that, it really is unbalancing a lot of people. I for one think the thing should be perked.
I like the idea of a 1943 based arena.
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I agree w/ AKAK. The La7 is fast, but after it's speed and acceleration, it is a very average, and easliy beatable plane. In fact, in a 1v1, the speed advantage the la7 has is a liability for 90% of LA7 pilots. These guys will overshoot and expose themselves to easy deaths. Sure there are a couple exceptional LA7 pilots, but that can be said for any model. I've been here for just under a year, so I'm no "veteran" of AH... each month I learn a bunch more...this month my ratio against La7's is: 41-2.
If a relative youngster to the game can manage this.. anyone can..... IMO the La7 has no business being perked....unless you perk all late war planes, I guess.
Edit: Back on topic... I love the idea of a perked p-47... why not?
Since everyone should have a perked varient of their ride of preference.. can I have a perked pony? the -H?
(please don't slam me too much, I'm just wishing.)
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Originally posted by bozon
the N preformance isn't THAT great - about a p-51's. unless you want to fly it at 30k
Frankly, I enjoy high altitude fights! The more, the better.
F4U-4 vs P47N at 28-30k? Scary, but fun. I'd engage! :)
Gainsie
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Originally posted by Nilsen10
from a design perspective it may be less work for HTC to make the M tho, the exterior is very close to the D30 as far as i can see.
And by "very close," you mean "identical." Throw a skin on it and tweak the FM for higher engine output and you have a P-47M.
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Originally posted by hazed-
I say give frenchy his P47N unperked or the M perked at same cost as say a tempest.
I'll agree with you as far as you say we should have both planes. As far as perking goes, I don't care either way (the pessimist in me knows a "P-47M" perk icon would kill most of the fun of even having this plane ;) ), but the P-47M and N would be very similar in performance so it wouldn't make too much sense to perk one and not the other. In fact, I'd say the P-47N with dry wing tanks would be the plane to fly for best overall performance.
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Yes bring the P47M or N or both, just get the KI-84/KI-100 in here at the same time or b4 :)
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shush lok.
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LA7 outclasses most planes perked and unperked bellow 10k, only reason they are failry easy to kill is that there are few really good pilots that fly it. Perk it or unperk the Ta152 (unperk the Ta152 anyway) the F4u4 and Spit 14 then bring down tempest perk to 10.
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OH! And BTW, bring the P47M to AH!
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:D
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lots of ways to exploit an LA7.. I simply don't agree that it outclasses most planes... at any alt. Poor views, average turner, terrible guns, poor fuel duration, even it's speed is often a liability... although this can be attibuted to the pilot as much as the plane.
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I'd have to say....Furball is Al Gore and on a serious note, at the very least, get rid of the perk ride tags unless the plane is significantly different in appearance than the other unperked versions.
Bring the P47M or N or both to AH2 yeah baby yeah! (Frenchy among others gave some very valid reasons)
Of course, the Ki84/Ki100 AND the Yak3 should appear at the same time if not before.
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Steve, it's a good turner with good fuel endurance.
Often many people have brought up the problem that it simply flies too long. The thing flies a lot longer on 75% fuel, than a 109 with 100%.
Also, the La-7 out turns every USN plane except the F6F, F4F/FM2, out turns every USAAF plane except the P-38. Out turns all German planes except the 109F-4 and the E-4, out turns all British except Hurris and Spits.. sustained turn figures, that is. In high speed turns, it stays with almost everything, as long as the pilot knows when and where to manage his throttle.
The guns do suck, but then again, anything not armed with .50s or Hispanos suck, too. It's just a matter of which sucks a bit more, since most German, Japanese, and Soviet cannons are nothing like the Hispano and .50(barring the JP Ho-5 cannon).
A plane, so massively used, having more than 1k/d, really says a lot about the survivability.
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Well Kweassa, A large part of the la7's "survivability" can be attributed to that it's a poor jabo plane. Planes like the P51 and typhoon have poorer K/D's in large part that they are used on many Jabo's. If the La7 had comparable jabo capabilities, you'd see its' K/D drop more in line, IMO.
I don't know what to tell you, Kweassa. I simply disagree that it's a largely superior plane. I base this on my experiences. I have little trouble beating LA7's. As I stated previously, there are 1 or 2 La7 sticks that are the exception to this, but this is true in many planes; like Todd in the spit 5, Drex is his F6, Lefty and frenchy in the jug. :)
Oh... Taki in his niki.. that guy is really darned good!
Honorable mention to Xdak in his tiffie, I've never run into a tiffie pilot that gave me any trouble until I fought xdak and watched him fight others, he really does well in it!