Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Batz on July 20, 2003, 07:03:06 PM
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Vienna council shifts Luftwaffe hero from plot of honour to pauper's grave
By Clare Chapman in Vienna
(Filed: 13/07/2003)
The ashes of a daredevil Luftwaffe pilot who shot down more than 250 Allied planes in the Second World War are to be exhumed from a grave of honour in Vienna after the council stripped him of his status as a war hero.
The campaign to remove Major Walter Nowotny's remains from the city's Central Cemetery and move them to a pauper's plot has been led by the grandson of a British RAF pilot who was shot down over Belgium in 1940 and died of his injuries.
David Ellensohn, a Vienna city councillor whose maternal grandfather was RAF acting pilot officer James Gillespie, successfully argued that Major Nowotny - the first fighter pilot in history to bring down 250 enemy aircraft - had been serving the Third Reich and did not deserve his heroic status.
"He was not fighting for this country, for Austria, he was fighting for the Third Reich," said Mr Ellensohn, a Green Party councillor. "If they had won the war, there would be no Austria as such. Therefore, we should not be forced to give special credit to this man."
Major Nowotny, who had shot down 258 enemy aircraft by the time of his death, aged 24, had been awarded the Third Reich's highest military honour, the Knight's Cross with Oak Leaves, Swords and Diamonds, by Hitler himself.
When the major died in 1944 when his fighter crashed in flames, his ashes were buried with his medals in his home town, Vienna, alongside Austrian resistance fighters and Beethoven, Schubert, Johann Strauss and Brahms.
Mr Ellensohn asked: "What did he do that earned him a place alongside those who really earned their places in the cemetery, such as resistance fighters Rosa Jochmann and Paul Speiser?
"He was placed in that section of the graveyard by the Nazis, not by the city of Vienna, and although it has taken 59 years for the city to recognise that he does not deserve to be there, we are pleased that action is finally being taken."
The council's decision has been denounced as "cultural barbarianism" by Johann Herzog, a councillor for the opposition Freedom Party (FP), which has launched an appeal.
Opposition councillors argue that relocating the major's ashes would contravene the war graves welfare law, from 1948, that says war graves - regardless of the nationality of their occupant - must remain undisturbed.
Mr Herzog said: "The necessity to dishonour Nowotny's grave, and therefore his person, almost 60 years after his death, is evidence of a distorted understanding of history and moreover a lack of deference for a fallen soldier. And that's all he was - a soldier.
"He was not a member of the National Socialist Party and he certainly was not a war criminal. If he were, I could understand the removal of his status. In fact, he was respected not just by his own side but by RAF pilots as well."
Sascha Gasthuber, of the far-Right Germania group, said protesters carrying flaming torches to show their contempt for the vote would march against the council's decision. "Nowotny gave his life to make sure the future was worth living in for us and our children. We cannot sit back and let them dishonour
his memory like this."
Mr Ellensohn, however, insisted that the plan to move the grave away from the cemetery's section for heroes was perfectly justified. "As far as I am aware, there is no rule in Catholicism that says a grave cannot be moved, not like in Judaism," he said.
Major Nowotny, who joined up when he was 19 following the invasion of Poland, was renowned even among Allied pilots and during the summer of 1943 became a virtual one-man air force in the skies over the Eastern Front. In June 1943 he shot down 41 aircraft, 10 in one day. He crashed on November 8 1944 and was buried with his medals a few days later.
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The above is incorrect but instead of editing it I will leave it.
From
This thread
http://disc.server.com/discussion.cgi?id=3051;article=68647;title=Luftwaffe%20Discussion%20Group%3A%2012%20O%27Clock%20High%21;date_query=1058536190
@
Ludtwaffe Board (http://disc.server.com/Indices/3051.html)
This thread triggered a much longer (and even more acrimonious) thread over on hyperscale. In the course of that one, someone posted a copy of a German-language article from Vienna indicating that Nowotny's remains would not now be moved, only that the city council would no longer pay for maintenance of the grave. That would now be the responsibility of surviving members of the Nowotny family.
I saw the article else where and then found more info from the board linked above.
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I would think any person killed serving his country honourably should be treated with all possibly respect.
To have this changed in anyway for either Polictical correctness, or political expediency is quite frankly wrong.
Tronsky
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I agree that he was NOT a hero of any kind.
But I do not agree with the decision of having his grave moved. Why now, after so long, and not right after WWII was over?
Not that he cares anyway. If hell exists, he is burning there along with his masters Hitler and Goering. He has other things to worry about.
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Originally posted by Animal
I agree that he was NOT a hero of any kind.
But I do not agree with the decision of having his grave moved. Why now, after so long, and not right after WWII was over?
Not that he cares anyway. If hell exists, he is burning there along with his masters Hitler and Goering. He has other things to worry about.
According to many Japanese there are hundreds of thoudsands of American veterans burning in hell as we speak...
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
According to many Japanese there are hundreds of thoudsands of American veterans burning in hell as we speak...
Yeah, religions are ****ing stupid.
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Yep, he sure is dead.
SOB
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That's pathetic. These PC revisionists suck azz.
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"The campaign to remove Major Walter Nowotny's remains from the city's Central Cemetery and move them to a pauper's plot has been led by the grandson of a British RAF pilot who was shot down over Belgium in 1940 and died of his injuries."
Sore loser.
(ish)
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I'm A Jew and I bear no grudge against this man.
As i see it he was just doing what he was trained to do in war.
The fact that he did it so well is besides the point.
He is dead respect the fallen warriors on both sides.
Let him Rest.:(
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I agree that he was NOT a hero of any kind.
he mite of not be a hero to us,,but he was one hell of a fighter pilot and desurves to be honored with everyone else,,,just because he flew with the nazi's doesnt mean he is evil
should we dishonor all the russian ww2 heros too? sence they were fighting for stalin?<~~worst mass killer in history,if there country decided its going to go to war or kill people,,they have to do it,,like it or not
blame the leaders not the solders,,there just doing a job,,they got no choice in what is right or wrong,,there just defending family and freinds like most of us would do
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Originally posted by hyena426
not the solders,,there just doing a job,,they got no choice in what is right or wrong,,there just defending family and freinds like most of us would do
No, sry man but thats not true.
Blame everyone cause without soldiers the leaders could do nothing. If there where more people with NUTS like Stauffenberg and his conspirators, this idiotic moron Hitler wont have survived so long. What the conspirators did is what i would call "defending family and friends".
IMHO even the ones that dont where members of NSDAP but served them where guilty. Guilty for dont having the nuts to be against this regime. Guilty for just doing "what they where told". I dont have respect for these guys. The only thing they had was fear. They would die for Hitler and HIS war but they wont die to prevent this war? This is cowardice.
If we had more people that would have fought the Nazis maybe we than had a civil war, but better having a civil war instead of causing the 2nd WW.
Nowotny was an exceptional pilot and surely he only did what he thought was right to do but there where to many with this attitude...
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he·ro ( P ) Pronunciation Key (hîr)
n. pl. he·roes
2. A person noted for feats of courage or nobility of purpose, especially one who has risked or sacrificed his or her life: soldiers and nurses who were heroes in an unpopular war.
...some looser, who I guess is not a hero himself, is judging hero status by the side?
Would be interesting to know what he would think of the finnish heroes, since with the current philosophy hes applying on the 'hero' status, he would be "wrong" regardless did he say no or yes for the finnish heroes.
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Originally posted by Duedel
No, sry man but thats not true.
Blame everyone cause without soldiers the leaders could do nothing. If there where more people with NUTS like Stauffenberg and his conspirators, this idiotic moron Hitler wont have survived so long. What the conspirators did is what i would call "defending family and friends".
Good point. But that being said, I don't think they should disturb the grave. The reason being is that I would hate to see other war graves being dug up for similar or not so similar reasons(unless the family would like to relocate). It's in the past, let it go.
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Originally posted by Sixpence
Good point. But that being said, I don't think they should disturb the grave. The reason being is that I would hate to see other war graves being dug up for similar or not so similar reasons(unless the family would like to relocate). It's in the past, let it go.
Yep, thats my opinion too Sixpence.
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Gscholz,
that wasnt the issue, the issue was this loosers view of point, who wants to have someone turned to non-hero.
(his reasonings)
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If it came to light that a Norwegian soldier was buried wrongly in an American Heroes cemetery, I would not dig him up, I would let him rest in peace.
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Originally posted by GScholz
Seems perfectly just to me. Nowotny was a warrior, an exceptional warrior even, and should be respected as such. However because he fought for the 3rd Reich he should never be considered a hero.
I have never seen such tard-like idiocy from anyone (except animal, but we all expect that from him) before...who the f*ck do you think you are?
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Hero is a subjective word. Respect is one thing, hero-worship and adulation are something else altogether.
I'm interested, why should he be considered a hero? For what cause was he fighting?
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Originally posted by Dowding
I'm interested, why should he be considered a hero? For what cause was he fighting?
My point exactly.
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Thanks for that expansive and comprehensive explanation. When does the reader's digest version come out?
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Originally posted by Dowding
Thanks for that expansive and comprehensive explanation. When does the reader's digest version come out?
Refer to quote from dictionary I posted above
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Originally posted by Dowding
I'm interested, why should he be considered a hero? For what cause was he fighting?
If you lived in a city that was being bombarded, and he defended it and saved your family, he might be a hero in your eyes. But that's not the point, why dig up a war grave now and set a precedent to dig up every war grave we find conflict with? Did he commit war crimes? I could see an argument there, but for being on the wrong side? I just don't see the point. If anyone had a problem with him being there, it should have been said right after the war, not 50 years later.
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Well, I WAS agreeing with you...didnt think you needed that much elaboration then...
But ok. Whether a person is a hero or not has got *nothing* to do with what flag he fought under. You look at his actions and judge him for what he did and how he did it.
To say that Rudel or Hartmann or Wittman or Carius was not heroic, or "a hero", is quite franky an insult. Take Rudel for example, if you dont consider him a hero for what he did and how...then quite frankly you have made the entire concept of heroism or heroics irrelevant or pointless.
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Hmm ok. In that last sentence I'd make the following edit:
"...the entire concept of heroism or heroics [is] irrelevant [and] pointless."
That would pretty much sum up my thoughts on the subject.
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Originally posted by Dowding
Hmm ok. In that last sentence I'd make the following edit:
"...the entire concept of heroism or heroics [is] irrelevant [and] pointless."
That would pretty much sum up my thoughts on the subject.
Then we'll just have to agree on disagreeing.
My thoughts:
Every nation has its hero's, and every nation needs its hero's. Some people deserve to be called hero's.
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Actually, I agree with that. But the concept of heroism is pointless and relevant to any sense of objectivity.
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I suppose the KKK has its heroes too.
I'm sure they fought well for the Klan. And we should honor them for their bravery and heroics.
:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by midnight Target
I suppose the KKK has its heroes too.
Of cource they do...wouldnt that be that Nathan Bedford Forrest-dude?
Or are you implying that there are no heroes unless they first pass throgh the current PC-filter of the time?
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I think its pretty simple Hortlund..
The "filter" you mention should have something to do with the principles advocated by the group recognizing the hero.
John Dillinger was a hero to bank robbers and thugs... should he be honored?
Many men were heroic to the 3rd riech, I put them in the same category as Dillinger.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
The "filter" you mention should have something to do with the principles advocated by the group recognizing the hero.
And here we disagree. Personally I am of the opinion that there were many German heroes in ww2, just as there were many Soviet heroes in ww2, just as there were (probably) some Italian heroes in ww2, and there were possibly even some french heroes...
Or Soviet heroes in Afghanistan, or Chinese heroes in Korea, or Vietnamese heroes in Vietnam, o...let me know if you want me to continue of if you get the picture.
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In the narrow context of your point, we agree. Heroes exist in all groups.
All I'm saying is that some of those heroes don't deserve our honor, based upon the groups that find them heroic.
Nowotny for example.
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Fishu, Horlund, read carefully.
Hartman, Nowotny, etc.
They were really good pilots who shot down a lot of enemy planes. That might make them heroic in a way; maybe they saved their buddies many times, or maybe they shot down an allied bomber that would have bombed a baby food factory.
But in the context of the original topic, how is Nowotny a NATIONAL AUSTRIAN HERO?
Please read the following points before answering. Now dont be lazy Hortlund, dont let your childish vendetta against me rush you into skipping this post in order to make a vague "MY TURN!" reply, read it all this time! :)
1.) He fought for the very person who brought devastation to his own country and very probably his own family. He voluntarily provided for the suffering of the Austrian people.
2.) Most of his kills were part of a ruthless and unjust invading force. He was not defending his homeland, he was aiding in the invasion and destruction of other people's homes.
3.) He died defending Germany, not Austria. His feats of valor (a key word here, something he had lots of) were rarely connected to Austria; it was all done for the Fuhrer and for the glory of a Nazi Germany. You might push it by saying he was a hero to Germany, maybe they will take his remains as such? He was only buried in that national hero cementary because Hitler wanted to set an example of the kind of men he wanted on his side: cold blooded, unquestioning killing machines who will shoot defending planes down by the hundreds, as to make his conquests easier.
So why should he be considered an Austrian National Hero? *WHAT EXACTLY DO THE AUSTRIAN PEOPLE OWE HIM IN ORDER TO WORSHIP HIM AS A GREAT NATIONAL HERO?*
Can you answer that question clearly?
That being said, I stand by my opinion that in this age, after waiting so long, it is idiotic to remove his remains. You can not change history.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
I think its pretty simple Hortlund..
The "filter" you mention should have something to do with the principles advocated by the group recognizing the hero.
John Dillinger was a hero to bank robbers and thugs... should he be honored?
Many men were heroic to the 3rd riech, I put them in the same category as Dillinger.
Did John Dillinger do it for the people or himself?
Answer lies there
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Ok ok, I will let our vendetta rest for just a short while in this thread ;)
How is Nowotny an Austrian national hero? Austria was at war, he was a soldier. He was very good at what he was doing, he killed alot of enemies, and he saved alot of friendlies. He was highly decorated, in fact, as high as you could back then. I'd say that qualifies him for that "hero"-title.
1) Why did he fight? We dont know that. Men fight for lots of reasons, some do it out of love, some do it out of hate, some do it because they have no choice, some do it because they like it, some do it because they believe they have to, some do it because they believe the cause is just...why did Nowotny fight? I dont know. I suspect he fought for the same reason everybody else were though, his country was at war, and he was called into service.
2) Well, in hindsight you might be right. But before you judge a man like that, you should try to walk a mile in his shoes. The first question you should ask yourself is "was it his fault that Germany was fighting an aggressive war" then you should go on with question nr 2 "did he really have a choice whether to fight or not".
3) Wrong.
What do the Austrian people owe him? What does Austria as a nation owe him?
Nothing more and nothing less than it owes all those men who like him, in a time of war, put on a uniform and fought and died for their country.
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Whatever will be the final lenght of thir thread you won't decide for the Autrichian.
Btw since when someone doing his duty and nothing more is a hero ?
What personnal achievement Nowotny has done no one else have done ?
Was his wingman less a hero ?
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Btw since when someone doing his duty and nothing more is a hero ?
There are circumstances where doing one's duty becomes a heroic act.. if Nowotny had shot Goering or Hitler or switched sides and flown for the allies he'd be a hero.
as it was; he, along with hartmann and all the other german aces were simply servants of a murdering dictator. Not hero's. Noteworthy skills to be sure.. a warriors, certainly. I can respect his skills.. but despise him as a puppet. Hartmann went on to fly for the modern luftwaffe.. respected by his nato counterparts.. but not regarded as a 'hero' by anybody i know of.
What personnal achievement Nowotny has done no one else have done ?
he may have shat the largest turd in the squadron outhouse for all i know.. IMHO, recipents of the Iorn Cross are not by default candidate heros to the folks that owe allegience to the opposing side. on the other hand, if hitlers team had won the war he'd no doubt be a deity by now and certainly an 'austian' hero..
Was his wingman less a hero ?
his wingman would be a hero if he shot nowtny down and then defected. of course, he'd be a hero without a job.. who in hell would fly with him afterwards? (exclude FDB's from your replies)
;)
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Originally posted by Hangtime
(exclude FDB's from your replies)
;)
damm , I cannot :p
Btw checking the greek definition of Hero made him a hero ...
He is not a son of a god ( like Héraclès/Hercule ) but he is a warrior like so he was a hero
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Originally posted by Hangtime
There are circumstances where doing one's duty becomes a heroic act.. if Nowotny had shot Goering or Hitler or switched sides and flown for the allies he'd be a hero.
Thats funny..because in everybody elses book that would have made him a deserter and a traitor.
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You mean every other Nazi? Let's provide a term of reference for your 'everybody' statement.
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My 2 cents: I think it's the cemetery's right to define what "hero" means as it pertains to being qualified (for lack of a better word) for burial there.
Question: What do you think would happen if it was discovered that a person buried in Arlington never served?
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Everybody as in everybody...btw, nice nazi reference a**hole.
Looks like the nazis managed to infiltrate the dictionarys too...
de·sert
Pronunciation: di-'z&rt
Function: verb
Etymology: French déserter, from Late Latin desertare, frequentative of Latin deserere
Date: 1603
transitive senses
1 : to withdraw from or leave usually without intent to return
2 a : to leave in the lurch b : to abandon (military service) without leave
intransitive senses : to quit one's post, allegiance, or service without leave or justification; especially : to abandon military duty without leave and without intent to return
trai·tor
Pronunciation: 'trA-t&r
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English traitre, from Old French, from Latin traditor, from tradere to hand over, deliver, betray, from trans-, tra- trans- + dare to give -- more at DATE
Date: 13th century
1 : one who betrays another's trust or is false to an obligation or duty
2 : one who commits treason
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Seams to me that the Austrians is trying to wash their dark spots of the history away. Would be better if they started with the people that where responsible for it all: the Nazis.
(Austria as well as Sweden have been protecting war criminals since the war).
But the term "Warcriminal" has changed since the Nurnburgtrails, as the "Haag convention" and the "Geneva convention" is no longer supported by the bigest superpower in the world
(who was prosecuting the Nazis for crimes against Peace, Trade, the Haagconvention and the Geneva convention. Same "superpower" is also forcing belgium to change their laws, that gives them the right to prosecute against crimes of war and humanity commited anywhere in the world).
Regarding this: Yes Nowotny must be concidered a "hero" by the new standards set.
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I was trying to point out the subjectivity of the connotations that are inextricably linked with the words 'traitor' and 'deserter' and also trying to seek clarification as what cause such a person would be a 'traitor' or 'deserter' to.
You can't escape the fact that Nazism was the cause to be propagated by continued participation on the Axis side. I'm sorry if that causes you offence.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Thats funny..because in everybody elses book that would have made him a deserter and a traitor.
Only to Nazis and likeminded groups.
To modern day Germans, chances are he would of been idolized had he gone allied and fought against the Nazi Wehrmacht.
Lest we forget, modern day Germans hate everything Nazi-esque.
-SW
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Originally posted by Dowding
I was trying to point out the subjectivity of the connotations that are inextricably linked with the words 'traitor' and 'deserter' and also trying to seek clarification as what cause such a person would be a 'traitor' or 'deserter' to.
You can't escape the fact that Nazism was the cause to be propagated by continued participation on the Axis side. I'm sorry if that causes you offence.
No, that is where you got it wrong. It is easy to objectively define what a "deserter" and "traitor" is.
You on the other hand are drifting into some very blurred "since the nation was fighting for the wrong reasons, he should have deserted, because that would have been right"-discussion.
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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
Only to Nazis and likeminded groups.
To modern day Germans, chances are he would of been idolized had he gone allied and fought against the Nazi Wehrmacht.
Lest we forget, modern day Germans hate everything Nazi-esque.
-SW
Nope, by definition it would have made him a deserter and a traitor. Read the dictionay quotes I posted.
As for your fantasies about what modern day Germans would have said or thought or done...lets just agree that you are guessing wildly here and leave it at that shall we?
There are numerous examples of Germans who were "idolized" after ww2 despite the fact that they fought in ww2 (Hartmann, Kretschmer, Galland, to name a few off the top of my head). There are also numerous examples of Germans who deserted in ww2 and were shunned after the war (Paulus would be a good example)
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At the very least Nowotny fought for the Nazis. He may very well have been a Nazi himself. Everything he fought for was evil. On top of that, good men died at his hands. But hes dead now and it doesn't matter. Cause once your dead- thats it.
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No, that is where you got it wrong. It is easy to objectively define what a "deserter" and "traitor" is.
No, that is where you have it wrong. Note that I said "...subjectivity of the connotations..." and not "...subjectivity of the definitions...".
You on the other hand are drifting into some very blurred "since the nation was fighting for the wrong reasons, he should have deserted, because that would have been right"-discussion.
It was you who said: "Thats funny..because in everybody elses book that would have made him a deserter and a traitor.". Your tone implies disgrace by such an action - i.e. he shouldn't have deserted, because that would have been wrong.
To which I responded that that would depend from which POV you were looking. I was merely continuing the discussion.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Nope, by definition it would have made him a deserter and a traitor. Read the dictionay quotes I posted.
Had he never signed up for the LuftWaffe, following the invasion of Poland and left for allied terroritory, your entire dictionary argument is moot.
Originally posted by Hortlund
As for your fantasies about what modern day Germans would have said or thought or done...lets just agree that you are guessing wildly here and leave it at that shall we?
Right, I guess there's a reason that a click of the heel and a flick of the wrist will get you beat down in Germany, or that post-WW2 vets wearing medals with swastikas on them had them ripped from their throats and almost beat by mobs of angry civilians. Nevertheless, I am not talking of just after WW2, I am talking about today. That's what modern means, today, and I'd be interested to see how many Germans you could get to agree with you about YOUR fantasies of the 3rd Reich.
Originally posted by Hortlund
There are numerous examples of Germans who were "idolized" after ww2 despite the fact that they fought in ww2 (Hartmann, Kretschmer, Galland, to name a few off the top of my head). There are also numerous examples of Germans who deserted in ww2 and were shunned after the war (Paulus would be a good example)
Back up here, I said "modern day". Lets find some modern day examples, modern day does not mean just after the fall of the 3rd Reich or the occupation of Germany. It means after the fall of the Berlin Wall.
-SW
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Paulus deserted ?
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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
Had he never signed up for the LuftWaffe, following the invasion of Poland and left for allied terroritory, your entire dictionary argument is moot.
[/b]
Brilliant argument...
...about YOUR fantasies of the 3rd Reich.
[/b]
...which are...?
Back up here, I said "modern day". Lets find some modern day examples, modern day does not mean just after the fall of the 3rd Reich or the occupation of Germany. It means after the fall of the Berlin Wall.
Oh, excuse me for not knowing that you had some own secret definition of "modern day" ...soo after the Berlin wall qualifies as modern then?
Fine, first give me one example of any ww2-type of guy on any side that is idolized in modern day Germany so I know what you mean when you say that.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Brilliant argument...
That was my whole argument. Other people were going based on him joining the LuftWaffe, then deserting. We all know, he would of never fought for the allies had he been flying with the LuftWaffe. Kind of a common sense thing here.
Originally posted by Hortlund
...which are...?
That Nazis are heros.
Originally posted by Hortlund
Oh, excuse me for not knowing that you had some own secret definition of "modern day" ...soo after the Berlin wall qualifies as modern then?
My "secret" definition? Well, since you are so good with definitions... why did you not bother looking up what "modern" means? And what "day" means?
Originally posted by Hortlund
Fine, first give me one example of any ww2-type of guy on any side that is idolized in modern day Germany so I know what you mean when you say that.
Why? You are trying to prove Nazi pilots that played the part of air cover for an aggressive regime conquering lands were heros to their neighboring countries that they were now invading.
Idolization is equivelant to hero worship, how many Nazis are considered heros in modern day Germany?
-SW
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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
That was my whole argument. Other people were going based on him joining the LuftWaffe, then deserting. We all know, he would of never fought for the allies had he been flying with the LuftWaffe. Kind of a common sense thing here.
[/b]
Your whole argument was "if he hadnt joined the LW he would not have been a deserter if he had joined the allies"?
That Nazis are heros.
[/b]
Lets see the quote where I say that then.
My "secret" definition? Well, since you are so good with definitions... why did you not bother looking up what "modern" means? And what "day" means?
[/b]
Yes, and if I look that up in a dictionary there will be an entry along the lines of "modern day=time period occurring after the fall of the Berlin wall"?
Why? You are trying to prove Nazi pilots that played the part of air cover for an aggressive regime conquering lands were heros to their neighboring countries that they were now invading.
[/b]
Uh..I am? Lets see where I say that then...can you show me the quote please?
Idolization is equivelant to hero worship, how many Nazis are considered heros in modern day Germany?
-SW
But I still dont understand what you mean. Hero worship and idolization is the same thing? Not neccesarily, but ok, lets take hero worship then. Please give me an example of any person from any nation in ww2 that is idolized or "hero worshiped" TODAY in Germany.
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Sounds like the councilmans poppa got owned and now hes still sore about it. Did Nowotny ever get any lancs or nightbombers. IMO anyone who ever nailed one of them terrorbombers is a hero.
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It depend of the definition of hero you use :
In Greek Literature, a hero:
[list=1]
- usually comes from a royal birth
- must perform an extraordinary feat
- does not have to be of good moral character
- must suffer physically
- must die in an unusual way
- not part of the community until death
[/list=1]
Usually, a Greek Hero is worshipped at their tomb site.
Except 4 I don't see what apply to Nowotny and he was not Greek either :p
American Heritage Dictionary
[list=1]
- In mythology and legend, a man, often of divine ancestry, who is endowed with great courage and strength, celebrated for his bold exploits, and favored by the gods.
- A person noted for feats of courage or nobility of purpose, especially one who has risked or sacrificed his or her life: soldiers and nurses who were heroes in an unpopular war.
- A person noted for special achievement in a particular field: the heroes of medicine. See Synonyms at celebrity.*
- The principal male character in novel, poem, or dramatic presentation. See Usage Note at heroine.**
[/list=1]
sense 3 perhaps ?
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Your whole argument was "if he hadnt joined the LW he would not have been a deserter if he had joined the allies"?
Yes.
Originally posted by Hortlund
Lets see the quote where I say that then.
I can't quote this whole thread. You repeatedly stated that Nowotny was a hero. He was a Nazi. 2+2=4.
Originally posted by Hortlund
Yes, and if I look that up in a dictionary there will be an entry along the lines of "modern day=time period occurring after the fall of the Berlin wall"?"?
You are as thick as molasses, and just as slow. Modern is pertaining to present and/or recent time. Past 10 to 20 years is present/recent time. The closer to the present day you get, the better, hence "after the fall of the Berlin Wall". I gave you a good reference point in time to begin your search, I feel 20 years is a good time span to find the majority in Germany worshipping some Nazis for what they did during WWII. Stretching beyond that, and you go too far into the past, and therefore, are not in the present time, or "modern day".
Originally posted by Hortlund
Uh..I am? Lets see where I say that then...can you show me the quote please?
You said Animal was wrong in Point #3. Without clarification beyond the single word you placed in response, it appears as though you believe Austria appreciates Nowotny as a hero for flying for the LuftWaffe in Nazi Germany's aggressive conquest to reunite Europe under the Nazi party and destroy all those who stand in their way, and are determined to be of lesser breeds by Hitler.
Originally posted by Hortlund
But I still dont understand what you mean. Hero worship and idolization is the same thing? Not neccesarily, but ok, lets take hero worship then. Please give me an example of any person from any nation in ww2 that is idolized or "hero worshiped" TODAY in Germany.
Why? I don't understand why I must show you someone from WWII idolized by Germans today. I call you out on proving a WW2 Nazi is a hero in Germany today, and then you request I do it first, but it can be anyone hiding it under the guise of trying to find out what I mean?
"any person who has hoeroic qualities or has performed a heroic act and is regarded as a model or ideal."
Use that definition to find a WW2 Nazi that is regarded as a hero today in Germany. The only thing he would be model or ideal in, would be that of Nazism. So, in the eyes of Nazis, he would be a hero, which I said way back in my first post.
-SW
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Lets put this whole Nowotny thing in "modern" American PC terms...
Is George Washington a hero? I dont think so, he owned slaves - therefore he is an unamerican racist and not a hero in modern times. Obviously! Lets rename the state and the city and move him to paupers grave!
You see thats all there is to it - and surely slavery and racism are very little differnt than what the nazis did - not to mention george washington was a traitor to his king and homeland... :rolleyes:
PC BS sucks there is now way to justify it!
I propose we rename Washington state after some (preferably gender ambiguos as was some the case in superior native american cultures) indian chief or Malcom X. The capita city should be blown up as it is a sugn of opression worldwide. It should be moved to Berkeley CA, though that city must also me renamed as Berkeley was an evil Irish catholic missionary who forced Christianty on native americans....
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Lets put this whole Nowotny thing in "modern" American PC terms...
Waaaah! I'm an oppressed American white man. Waaaah! Martin Luther King never knew the meaning of the word 'oppression' - he never walked a mile in my Nikes. Why does the world continue to beat me up!?
In conclusion....waaah!
I perfectly understand your emotional turmoil Grunherz and what you say brings a tear to my eye.
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Screw you Dowding!
I merely compared this to something that happends quite often inb an american context that is very a controverrsial and debated topic in the stetes and somewhat comporable to this nowotny thing and yoiu feel you you have to make fun of me and try put up some opressed white man straw man argument - somethinh I never brought up or alluded to in my post...
So again screw you - I'll take it you have no argument - plus I think such enrmous deliberate alteration of my post in your "quote" is in bad taste... Please remove it.
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Rotfl :)
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Argument? Your post was 'argument'? It was a usual self-pitying diatribe about 'PC gone mad', barely disguised to have a modicum of relevance to the subject at hand. As is often the case, you start with a barely reasonable premise, extend it to some ridiculous extreme and turn it around, more or less saying "Is that what you want? Cos that's what'll happen!"
You went from George Washington, to slavery, to Berkeley CA to the black civil rights movement within a handful of sentences.
Come on, mate, I know you can do better than that.
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It is exactly the same thing dowding, there are actually schools named after Washington that were criticized because he was a slaveholder and so a racist and no longer acceptable to hold the honor as the schools namesake... That attitude is NO different tahnwhats going on in the Nowotny grave thing. They had 60 years to remove Nowotnys grave - do you think its merely a coincidence that it only happend now after the emergance of wild PC behavior?
Of course i wnt from washington to the civil rights movement - thats why schools named after, a slave owner- are being renamed after malcom X, funny as he was a hateful figure early in his career. The indians came in because washington state is famous for its native popuations - Sattle ring a bell - so I thought it would be appropriate too.
The Berkely thing was a sort of joke - I recently found out that Berkely was named after this Irish Missionary who converted Indians to christianity and have been seriously thinking of starting a prank campaign to rename the city. :)
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I think there is a danger that self-pity and auto-oppression creeps into discussions regarding political correctness. It gets on my tits as much as over exuberant application of PC does.
I'm not sure a comparison of Novotny and Washington is valid in anyway.
Edit. I thought the Berkeley thing was your usual rant about college degenerates. You've gotta admit that has been done to death. ;)
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cc Dowding
Heres the thing the direct Washington/Nowotny comparsion is not perfect, of course. But the motives are identical and the timing is IMO not coinciodental, I feel its PC run amok and this allows these things to get passed by politicians..
BTW will you join my campaign to rename Berkeley? I think its a perfect prank considering the politics and history of the place... It would be evil.. :)
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So its the new PC that is demonizing the Nazi's?
puuuleeez.
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Originally posted by straffo
It depend of the definition of hero to you use :
Except 4 I don't see what apply to Nowotny and he was not Greek either :p
sense 3 perhaps ?
Agreed, Straffo.. that makes sense.
From my obviously slanted perspective, I can pay my 'respects' to a skilled warrior who fought for the other side, but in my eyes he ain't a hero... his 'herculean' accomplishments were in the cause of a great evil.
One 'aw-sh*it' erases 250 'atta-boy's'.
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Originally posted by GScholz
I think you people got this a bit wrong. They are not trying to get Nowotny moved from a war cemetery, they're trying to get him moved from an Austrian Hero cemerery.
Fishu, the Finnish heroes fought for their own country against an invader, Nowotny did not. To draw a parallel to the Norwegians who fought for the Germans; many of them probably did heroic deeds in the battles they fought, but make no mistake, that does not make them Norwegian heroes, it makes them traitors and so they do not get any recognition for their sacrifice in Norway.
Not the strongest of arguments, given that the leader of the third reich, old Adolf himself, was an Austrian. So whilst arguably Nowotny was fighting for Germany, the Germany he fought for was run by an Austrian. The countries were allies in the previous war too and they speak the same language. After the Anschluss in 1938 the Austrian army was incorporated into the German Wehrmacht. So it's certainly a little closer than your Norwegian analogy might lead us to believe.
I personally have no idea what cause the guy was fighting for or whether he was heroic or not - but fighting for the "wrong" side does not IMO preclude heroism in war, just as fighting for the "right" side does not preclude the ability to commit war crimes (although this is sadly untrue as far as post-WWII trials go).
In that sense it's a bit like being a patriot - the fact that your country is awful or evil doesn't really figure - if you fight for it you're a patriot if you fight against it you're a traitor. Although if we use the more common cynical and realistic method - if you win you're a patriot and a hero, if you lose you're a traitor and a coward - then Nowotny should indeed be dug up and moved.
All in all a very grey area and a huge can of worms - for example should Bomber Harris, the architect of the Dresden raid be stripped of his honours too? Or the planners of the Tokyo fire bombings? Or the members of the Manhattan Project? All of these are arguably dreadful attrocities too, good intentions or not - and who's to say what Nowotny's intentions were? In the words of Jesus in South Park - "My son, I'm not touching that with a fifty foot pole." Let sleeping Austrians lie, I say.
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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
I can't quote this whole thread. You repeatedly stated that Nowotny was a hero. He was a Nazi. 2+2=4.
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You need to brush up on your logic. First...was he a nazi? Or was he an Austrian soldier in a war?
Anyway, to disprove your little 2+2=4 up there.
some A = B,
some A = C,
some A = B + C
that does not give C = B.
You are as thick as molasses, and just as slow.
[/b] Well we cant be all as smart as you mr 2+2=4...
You said Animal was wrong in Point #3. Without clarification beyond the single word you placed in response, it appears as though you believe Austria appreciates Nowotny as a hero for flying for the LuftWaffe in Nazi Germany's aggressive conquest to reunite Europe under the Nazi party and destroy all those who stand in their way, and are determined to be of lesser breeds by Hitler.
[/b]
See the other response regarding Austria and Germany and their relation in ww2.
Why? I don't understand why I must show you someone from WWII idolized by Germans today. I call you out on proving a WW2 Nazi is a hero in Germany today, and then you request I do it first, but it can be anyone hiding it under the guise of trying to find out what I mean?
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Well, simply because I cannot come up with one ww2 character from any nation that is idolized in Germany today...I really cant.
And if that is true, then it kinda disqualifies your argument.
"any person who has hoeroic qualities or has performed a heroic act and is regarded as a model or ideal."
Use that definition to find a WW2 Nazi that is regarded as a hero today in Germany. The only thing he would be model or ideal in, would be that of Nazism. So, in the eyes of Nazis, he would be a hero, which I said way back in my first post.
-SW
LOL I dont agree with that definition of hero.
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Sounds like the councilmans poppa got owned and now hes still sore about it. Did Nowotny ever get any lancs or nightbombers. IMO anyone who ever nailed one of them terrorbombers is a hero.
Exactly
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Sounds like the councilmans poppa got owned and now hes still sore about it. Did Nowotny ever get any lancs or nightbombers. IMO anyone who ever nailed one of them terrorbombers is a hero.
How about B17s or B29s?
You can answer that too if you like Batz.
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Question:
If it turns out that 51% of the country is swayed by the spin into believing that Bush new the Iraq's were not in fact trying to buy uranium in Africa, does that make any of the U.S.'s soldiers who did brave deeds less of a hero, or deserve to be spit on maybe? Yank the dead ones out of Arlington and plant em in the back yard somewhere? Jessica? The hero reporter?
Is Sakai a hero? He did some pretty dam heroic stuff. Of course he did it for the evil nips who bombed Pearl. And actually, the Hero's of the Soviet are a good example also. Stalin was evil incarnate, and all those fellas did heroic stuff keeping communism free to attempt world domination. Are they still hero's? How about the Nam vets? They were just supporting corrupt evil puppet states? Hero's? Eh? Did they deserve to be spit on?
I guess history really is (re)written by the victors.
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No, it's re-written by the PC-hysterics. (you know who you are, and you know that MT is your secret leader and Animal is the secret jester)
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I answered that in the 10 other threads about terror bombers and dresden.
Its a bit off topic for this discussion. The specific targeting of civilians in order to create terror is/was wrong and those who planned it should have been/be held accountable.
I am not referring to "collateral damage" that may result from targeting specific military structures but the specific targeting of civilians with the purpose of killing as many of them as possible.
Dresden is the easiest example to point to. Even SHAEF considered that "terror bombing".
But even then theres a difference in that the b29s that dropped nukes in Japan ended the war and may have ultimately saved lives. The dehousing policy executed by Harris didnt end the war. It just killed a lot of women and children.
The fire bombing raids over Tokyo were/are as equally dreadful as Dresden.
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This is pointless, he should remain where he is. It's a little late to remove his remains, but to me he isn't a hero.
-SW
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Originally posted by Hortlund
No, it's re-written by the PC-hysterics. (you know who you are, and you know that MT is your secret leader and Animal is the secret jester)
By your definition Hitler himself was a hero... He won the Iron Cross.
Maybe his grave should be placed on hallowed ground so we can revere his heroism.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
So its the new PC that is demonizing the Nazi's?
puuuleeez.
They had 60 years to think about moving him - why it just happend now?
Arguably all US Vietnam war vets are war criminal invaders, very unpoular war and we lost it to boot, - time to blow up the monument or at least scratch off the names...
Or how bout our little nonexistand WMD war- as you liberals keep remindng us - remember we invaded Iraq just like Hitler did Poland on inflated charges of imminent danger or attack. So far over 200 have died and that mercinary PFC Lynch just got a bronze star... No heros there im sorry to say, the ones buried at arlington should be dug up and put in a paupers grave. How do you liberals see it - they, many not even US citizens - conducted an illegal war of agression on false pretenses for an unelected facist dictator Bush - right?... Yep no heros there. Dig them up out of arlington or any honored war cemetary in the USA... :rolleyes:
Yeap no heros...