Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: muckmaw on July 22, 2003, 09:41:47 AM
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Anyone want to touch this one?
I've got my thoughts on it. ;)
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Yea, like a funeral the welcome is not just for the one honored, and the Bronze Star and Purple Hart are deserved by her as much as most others who get the same award.
Don't be so critical, that s the media’s job.
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Purple heart, yes.
Bronze Star...not so sure..
The Bronze Star Medal is awarded to any person who, while serving in any capacity in or with the Army of the United States after 6 December 1941, distinguished himself or herself by heroic or meritorious achievement or service, not involving participation in aerial flight, in connection with military operations against an armed enemy; or while engaged in military operations involving conflict with an opposing armed force in which the United States is not a belligerent party.
Does this mean anyone who was wounded in the gulf war will be getting a Bronze Star?
Did she do something besides get lost, get shot and get captured?
I thought I remembered reading she shot and killed 3 enemy soldiers, but I don't recall where and remember thinking this sounded like media hype.
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Lets assume for a second that the officer awarding her the medal knows more about what she did and how, than we do, and leave it at that shall we?
Or perhaps muckmaw would like to review all medals awarded in the war in Iraq? Perhaps you would like a veto right too?
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Oh brother, the Army just doesn't know when to stop when it comes to the fable of Private Lynch.
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Perhaps the officer awarding the medal knows he's been told to do so at a time when soldiers are coming home in bags every day, and the administration needs a hero to shine the spotlight on and say "Hey, we did good in Iraq, did'nt we".
So they make a movie of the week and give her the bronze star.
Making hollywood bs out of what is an earned honor for so many servicemen and women is wrong.
Now, do any of us know all the facts about Lynch? Of course not. But since when did the facts have anything to do with this bbs?:D
Seriously, from what I know about the case, I simply never heard of anything that warrants the receipt of the bronze star.
No sarcasm here...does anyone know of any facts about her performance that warrants the bronze star?
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Leave it alone.
We need heroes, we need fables. Its good for the psyche.
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Bronze star for a traffic accident? wtf
granted she was a POW and her injuries merit the purple heart but what the hell is a bronze star going to here for?
I dont concur with this it brings discredit to others who have earned their Bronze Star in combat... (note combat)
Now if the initial reports that she still fought until gun jam propganda were true then i think the Bronze star is in order..
This is my opinion treat it as such...
DoctorYO
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Petty jealousy. Misguided bitterness. No need to say more.
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Originally posted by Erlkonig
Oh brother, the Army just doesn't know when to stop when it comes to the fable of Private Lynch.
I heard Micheal Moore is being touted as the front runner to direct the Made for TV movie.
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This is nothing more than a CNN made story. It's all publicity. I bet she never fired a single round. All she is guilty of is surviving a horrific event when many of her compatriot did not.
The media went wild with the story and the facts came out later. It makes the government look good to give her lots medals as the story is in the media so much.
On the flip side, I wouldn't take that away from her. She lived and I bet that's all that matters to her and her family. No medals will make up for what she's already lost.
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When she was a prisoner of war, I was at home, sitting on the couch under the air conditioner.
I say good for her.
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ditto
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Leave it alone.
We need heroes, we need fables. Its good for the psyche.
even if it isn't true....
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You buncha dang liberals and your "feel good" measures. You can't handle the truth!
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Sgt. Mathew Rose received the Bronze star after taking part in this action as well. Does anyone know if he earned his?
-Sik
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Apache: When she was a prisoner of war, I was at home, sitting on the couch under the air conditioner.
Oh, you are so magnanimous! Plenty of servicermen were exibiting real heroism while you were sitting on the couch, but I guess it would be OK to devalue their hard-won awards because you feel sorry for the girl...
miko
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LOL!!
Pretty sad really.
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Originally posted by miko2d
Apache: When she was a prisoner of war, I was at home, sitting on the couch under the air conditioner.
Oh, you are so magnanimous! Plenty of servicermen were exibiting real heroism while you were sitting on the couch, but I guess it would be OK to devalue their hard-won awards because you feel sorry for the girl...
miko
Like I've said before, you're so educated you're stupid. You're response to my post is evidence to solidify my apparently reasonable assumption.
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Looks like they are all getting Bronze stars. Are we going to go over them case by case in here?
http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/metropolitan/1978146
-Sik
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"""you're so educated you're stupid""""
now that would make a great sig line
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anybody seen a factual blow-by-blow of that engagement, and her part in it yet?
mayhaps we're barking up the tree before the cat gets there?
as to her value as a propaganda puppet for hollywood.. i'll alert the media.
i dunno about you guys, but i happen to enjoy immensely watching those old B&W hollywood propaganda movies not to mention the old brit wwII movies which were great cinema too. why deny the next generation a good antique movie moment?. ;)
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But Hangtime... giving Ben Afleck more work should be a capital offence. Think of the children!
Although I'm sure the lead Iraqi villain will have an upper class English accent. So more work for a moustachioed Jeremy Irons.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
anybody seen a factual blow-by-blow of that engagement, and her part in it yet?
http://www.sftt.org/PDF/article07102003a.pdf
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I just saw PFC Lynch on TV...
I take it back, give her the medal...she's cute.
Seriously, if she earned it, good for her. I don't know the answer here.
If they're using her as a propaganda tool, it's sad because it would be another example of the chicken-**** politico's pissng on the graves of servicemen who DID earn it.
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wth...I just read that official AAR, and by the looks of that she sure as **** didnt earn any medal, that's for sure.
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After reading the above report.
I see no reasone for Pvt Lynch to get the bronze star.
Sorry but from what i read all she did was get hurt In a wreck
while she was a passenger in a hummer!
Now Pfc Miller That young Man Kicked prettythang!!
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well if you don't think she should get the medal, why don't YOU start movment to take it away from her, you could have congress investagate the whole thing, maybe you could have bush impeached for giving her the medal.
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Look the Army went to toejam when they TOOK the black Beret's away from the RANGER's and gave them to the reg Army as a fashion statement!!
So I guess it aint that hard to understand that the Press and The
Army would really pump this whole thing up into a big deal.
Look I know people who have been hurt while in operations that none of us will never hear about.
Do you think they get any medals.
Nope!!
Most of the people in the 507th there did a stand up job.
That pfc Miller killed 9 bad guy's .
And he got the silver star wich he deserved.
But as far as just being a passenger that gets hurt in an accident?
Man I just don't see it.
Just my opinion.
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Just read that report, is anyone gonna hang for that?
And all the weapon malfunctions, I don't think any of the weapons worked, how sad.
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Originally posted by john9001
well if you don't think she should get the medal, why don't YOU start movment to take it away from her, you could have congress investagate the whole thing, maybe you could have bush impeached for giving her the medal.
I'm not gonna try it.......you try it
(from the old life cereal commercial)
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Originally posted by rc51
Look the Army went to toejam when they TOOK the black Beret's away from the RANGER's and gave them to the reg Army as a fashion statement!!
So I guess it aint that hard to understand that the Press and The
Army would really pump this whole thing up into a big deal.
Look I know people who have been hurt while in operations that none of us will never hear about.
Do you think they get any medals.
Nope!!
Most of the people in the 507th there did a stand up job.
That pfc Miller killed 9 bad guy's .
And he got the silver star wich he deserved.
But as far as just being a passenger that gets hurt in an accident?
Man I just don't see it.
Just my opinion.
My Gosh, you make it sound as if she were a passenger in an SUV travelling down US1 to Key West. Do you think they "wrecked" because a cow ran across thier path?
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Originally posted by Dnil
Just read that report, is anyone gonna hang for that?
And all the weapon malfunctions, I don't think any of the weapons worked, how sad.
The individual soldier is responsible for keeping his weapon in firing order.
So they should get article 15s LOL
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Originally posted by Apache
My Gosh, you make it sound as if she were a passenger in an SUV travelling down US1 to Key West. Do you think they "wrecked" because a cow ran across thier path?
You have to understand what the bronze star is given out for!!
It aint for running away and then into the back of a truck and getting hurt!!
It is for fighting and or caring for thje injured.
A simplistic view but you get my point.
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I read the report above.
Take some time to go through it.
I understand this is a preliminary report, but the only mention of Lynch is to reference her location in a specific vehicle in the convoy.
According to this report, she never fired a weapon, nor did she attempt to do so. It mentions several other soldiers who tried to fire their weapons, which jammed. It mentions other soldiers attempting to get weapons from their dead or dying comrades.
It talks about Miller, and speculates that he killed as many as 9 Iraqis.
So where is the faintest refernce anywhere in this report that Lynch did anything but ride in the hummer?
Look, let's get one thing straight. She is a soldier and a war veteran, and for that I salute her. She did her job and served her country which is more than I can say for most, including myself.
But my point is, I don't feel anyone should recieve a medal aside from the purple heart unless they earn it. It devalues the same medal worn by so many men from WWII to the present.
On a personal note, I hate being jerked around by the media, and politicians, which is what I feel is happening here.
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Most of the soldiers in this group report that they experience weapons malfunctions. These malfunctions may have resulted from inadequate individual maintance in a desert environment.
And then he met the Marines who went back to rescue the remainder of the Army soldiers.
I thought this was interesting:
PFC Miller moved beyond the crash-site, engaged the enemy, and was captured after being surrounded. Although unconfirmed, Miller may have killed as many as nine Iraqi combatants.
Yowza!
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What did the citation read for the bronze star?
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Originally posted by muckmaw
But my point is, I don't feel anyone should recieve a medal aside from the purple heart unless they earn it. It devalues the same medal worn by so many men from WWII to the present.
This kind of stuff isn't new. The medal isn's so much for her as it is for the Army's image and the image they want their soldiers to be seen in. You can't buck the system from the inside, I tried.
Best thing is to let them do what they want but aknowledge the fact that this realy isn't about her as much as it's about them.
The true heros are the ones who give the ultimate, the surviviors are honered in their name in most cases.
IMO
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Originally posted by MrLars
This kind of stuff isn't new. The medal isn's so much for her as it is for the Army's image and the image they want their soldiers to be seen in. You can't buck the system from the inside, I tried.
Best thing is to let them do what they want but aknowledge the fact that this realy isn't about her as much as it's about them.
The true heros are the ones who give the ultimate, the surviviors are honered in their name in most cases.
IMO
This I can respect, but they do not hand her the medal and say this is awareded to you to honor of those that served with you and died.
*shrugs*
I'd like to read the report where her actions are described and show that she is in fact worthy of this medal.
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Originally posted by rc51
You have to understand what the bronze star is given out for!!
It aint for running away and then into the back of a truck and getting hurt!!
It is for fighting and or caring for thje injured.
A simplistic view but you get my point.
Boy are you way off.
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Originally posted by muckmaw
This I can respect, but they do not hand her the medal and say this is awareded to you to honor of those that served with you and died.
Sorry, my statement was a bit misleading....I ment to say that for others in the ranks to put to rest their feelings about who gets recognized for their actions often they will pass it off as a medal to the fallen. There are always exceptions.
The things the Army does and their stated reasons behind them can drive a soldier nuts, it sometimes makes it easier to come to terms with a loss in the ranks this way.
Most often the recipient will aknowledge those who have fallen as being the real heros.....as it should be, IMO.
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Originally posted by Martlet
Boy are you way off.
Well smart guy why don't you enlighten us then.
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Originally posted by Jack55
http://www.sftt.org/PDF/article07102003a.pdf
If thats an offical army document, then dowdings the queen of england.
really.
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Originally posted by Dowding
But Hangtime... giving Ben Afleck more work should be a capital offence. Think of the children!
Although I'm sure the lead Iraqi villain will have an upper class English accent. So more work for a moustachioed Jeremy Irons.
Alan Rickman makes a far more menacing villian....but Jeremy needs the work I'd say (and will bare his bellybutton at the drop of a hat)
Tronsky
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Originally posted by Hangtime
If thats an offical army document, then dowdings the queen of england.
really.
It's dull enough to be an official document, but I don't claim that it is.
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I've never met a single person that had the bronze star that felt they earned it. I've met plenty that criticize any metal any individual receives.
One I respect... the other I don't.
MiniD
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The rampant utter self important arrogance of those of you who sit in mock judgment of whether of not Private First Class Jessica Lynch deserves a Bronze Star is beyond astounding.
I'd like to hear from those on this BBS who have seen combat. I'd like to hear what they think. It seems to me that when you've been there, been shot at, seen friends and comrades killed, then you have some semblance of wherewithal to discuss the propriety of awarding that medal. Until then, I think all you monday morning arm chair quarterbacks sitting in your air conditioned houses, playing make believe war with cartoon airplanes ought to shut the f@ck up!
IMHO!
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she got whupped on pretty badly while a pow and didnt 'squeak out' as far as anyone knows. the kid has skull and spinal damage that she couldnt have gotten from a vehicle accident. her leg was broke so severely that the iraqi military guy in charge of her was pressuring the iraqi doctor to chop the leg so shed survive transport to a more secure interrogation facil. being as she supposedly walked hands up to her captors she didnt bust the leg in the fight either. she got worked over bad. and there have been bronze stars handed out in the past couple of years for less trying circimstances and some have been awarded bronze star when theres no way in hell it should have been awarded. whatever you do dont bag on her. bag on her oic who ran into the desert at the first sign of danger instead of doing his job. bag on the 'brave & honorable' iraqis who beat the tar out of her. leave the kid alone. she was scared to death and didnt break down. see the photos of her face when they were extracting her? you guys telling me you all know you wouldnt have started crying out of joy that youd been snatched back? i hate to say it but medals can be abused. i know guys that should have had alot of them but didnt get one because they embarrased the higher ups by being real deal warriors when the higher ups and their bellybutton kissers didnt have the guts to follow suit. not all medals are undeserved. id say the majority are deserved. i wouldnt call hers undeserved.
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some more of the story. the reason the iraqi doc went to tip us off about where she was came from him feeling uncomfortable with the requests to amputate the damaged leg to give her a better chance of surviving transport. he didnt think shed survive transport no matter what they did.
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Well everybody has there opinions.
mine is that women have NO place in the military combat anyway.
But thats another story.
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Considering I'm not in the Army, it's really none of my business. As a citizen who was also sitting in my air conditioned apartment during the war, I say good for her.
SOB
PS...Who else would like to see RC51 get his bellybutton handed to him by a female soldier? ;)
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Originally posted by SOB
Considering I'm not in the Army, it's really none of my business. As a citizen who was also sitting in my air conditioned apartment during the war, I say good for her.
SOB
PS...Who else would like to see RC51 get his bellybutton handed to him by a female soldier? ;)
nah he was a soldier i think so he knows its to serious of a job to be treated like an everyone plays sport. she did great. that doesnt mean a rifle platoon thats half men and half women isnt a horrible idea. and youd get no satisfaction rc51 could probably give you a long list of babes who he wants to kick his ass. :)
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LOL :D
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The Bronze star was an request from Hollywood, the movie will get so much better with an Bronze star award scene at the end!
I heard the Jessica Lynch movie is due out before the invasion of Iran... Will be fun to see what "really" happened!
:)
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Any soldier that SOB could surely beat up and take their sand clogged weapon from them that wouldn’t fire anyway, regardless, ought to be court-martialed, not given a bronze star. A purple heart? Sure, it fits.
If in this case, maybe not court-martial her, but her commanding officer that let those defenseless embarrassments to the military get in that situation.
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:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Hangtime
If thats an offical army document, then dowdings the queen of england.
really.
Go to http://www.army.mil and follow the links in media releases to get to this: http://www.army.mil/features/507thMaintCmpy/AttackOnThe507MaintCmpy.pdf
I guess Dowding needs a new avatar.
The report doesn't say much about Pfc Lynch. I'm curious to read the text of the citation but haven't been able to find a copy on the net.
This discussion reminds me of a saying that I read in Ilmari Juutilainen's book "Double Fighter Knight" that goes something like, "In war, medals and bombs always seem to hit the innocent."
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Do a search of past BS winners, then compare.
LOL!! what a freakin joke.
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The animosity some people have towards her is unreal...I don't recall her having campaigned for a medal or publicity.All she did was survive capture.
If the medal and the publicity is what angers some,then place the blame squarely where it belongs-the media.
NOT Jessica Lynch.
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my opinion , well in ww2 my grandfather was awarded 3 bronze stars, dday , battle of the buldge, and one that had no listing and this one he wouldnt talk about and took it to his grave. he was also award the good conduct medal(oh and all of our relative are still trying to figure out that one, as he was busted back to pfc 4 times, he didn't get the purple heart which he probaly should have (hand to hand with a german soldier who put a baynet through the roof of grandpa's mouth) .now to jessica i agree with the purple heart by all means, i do not feel what she did was heroic, but hey that's my OPINION, oh and as far as the etrex in those "documents" **** the army should have got them a better unit than that.
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The Hummer she was riding in had been struck by an RPG and was under heavy small arms fire. How some of you guys could compare what ensued to a traffic accident is beyond me. I guess you could also call it pilot error when someone takes a sidewinder up the tail pipe and crashes.
From what I've read most of injuries are attributed to (rifle butt clubbing) not a traffic accident.
dynamt
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I still don't understand why some feel she doesn't deserve the Bronze Star.
Refresh my memory but heroic isn't the only qualifier is it? Isn't meritorious service in there some where?
She was in a non combat unit full of clerks, cooks and maintenance personnel. They were in a combat situation. Her vehicle crashed due to being hit by direct/indirect enemy fire. She received injuries. She was taken prisoner of war.
Other than the purple heart, is there any combat medal she could have been awarded? If memory serves, the Bronze Star is the lowest in rank of combat awards.
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Just to be able to look at the facts for myself (thank you Pyro for showing us the link to the official Army report) can Mr "anonymous" scan or link to anything official with which I can read for myself details of the events as he writes them?
IMO when the poor kid read the prepared statements on tv and was riding in the car during the parade to me she quite often looked embarrased and retrospective. Not a "shy girl caught in the limelight" type of embarrased but well, just embarrased. Like someone caught up in something she'd rather not be part of.
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Originally posted by WestyAH
can Mr "anonymous" scan or link to anything official with which I can read for myself details of the events as he writes them?
i dont know about official but theres this; 'But the report avoids the details of the plight of Private Lynch, who’s still undergoing rehabilitation after suffering multiple broken bones and spinal and head injuries. She’s said she has no recollection of the event. The report seems to suggest Lynch was injured after her Humvee was hit by a rocket-propelled grenade and crashed into a truck in the convoy. The driver of the Humvee, Pfc. Lori Ann Piestewa, died of injuries she sustained, and two other occupants were killed under circumstances still under investigation, the report says. NEWSWEEK has learned, however, that U.S. military intelligence officers believe Lynch’s injuries were inflicted after she and other survivors surrendered. “This poor girl,” said one Special Forces captain involved in her rescue. He’s among three military intelligence sources who say she was standing when she surrendered, and had minor injuries at most. That was confirmed by Mehdi Kafaji, the Iraqi orthopedic surgeon who was in charge of her treatment at the hospital in An Nasiriya. “She had blunt-force trauma not consistent with what you’d expect from a car accident,” Kafaji says. He adds that there was no sign of bullet wounds on her body, and her injuries appeared to have been inflicted by a severe beating, probably with numerous rifle butts. Her Fedayeen captors then took her to An Nasiriya’s Saddam General Hospital. She told doctors she had not been sexually assaulted.' this came from; http://www.msnbc.com/news/938211.asp?cp1=1
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It would sure be nice to be able to read the citation for the bronze star. I would like to know what she did that was meritorious. Am not doubting that she does not deservce this medal but I am really curious as to what she did to deserve it.
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Thanks. I'm not saying many of those things did not happen. I do believe prisoners were beaten and that several of them were executed while in captivity. I just don't put much merit or stock into media stories from Newsweek as well as the BBC, Foxnews and especially CNN or MSN.
And I'd echo Yeagers post. The citation for the award is most notable for it's absence everywhere. The only official reference I've found to why she recieved it is here: http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Jul2003/n07222003_200307223.html
The General delivery the award cited "meritorious service in combat," which is pretty ambiguos, and then he moved right on to her receiving the POW medal.
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As an EMT who has seen many car wrecks.
I must say her injuries sound just like the ones you would get in a car wreck.
Remember she was sitting unrestrained on the transmission hump
and the think the hummer was going 50mph when it hit the truck.
Now there is no way that she would have not got mutiple fractures from that kind of impact.
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Originally posted by Yeager
It would sure be nice to be able to read the citation for the bronze star. I would like to know what she did that was meritorious. Am not doubting that she does not deservce this medal but I am really curious as to what she did to deserve it.
The media was all over her like a cheap suite!!
and this is great PR for the Army.
Sad to say but i bet thats all there is to it.
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Originally posted by SOB
Considering I'm not in the Army, it's really none of my business. As a citizen who was also sitting in my air conditioned apartment during the war, I say good for her.
SOB
PS...Who else would like to see RC51 get his bellybutton handed to him by a female soldier? ;)
LOL well being as I'm 6'4" and 270lbs It would take one tough
Biotch:D
I was lucky when I was in the Army I never had to serve with women.
Our standards where never lowerd always kept at the highest level where the should be!!
I did my 4 years SOB and made SGT E-5 what did you do?
Mos of 11B-Bravo-4 If you don't know what that is then you are speaking out of you're prettythang
PS I have seen all of Bruce Lee's movies
:D:D
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Originally posted by rc51
LOL well being as I'm 6'4" and 270lbs It would take one tough
Biotch:D
use yer head army! explain to him that your gonna need four one hundred pound hotties to receive a proper beating. :)
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Originally posted by WestyAH
Thanks. I'm not saying many of those things did not happen. I do believe prisoners were beaten and that several of them were executed while in captivity. I just don't put much merit or stock into media stories from Newsweek as well as the BBC, Foxnews and especially CNN or MSN.
And I'd echo Yeagers post. The citation for the award is most notable for it's absence everywhere. The only official reference I've found to why she recieved it is here: http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Jul2003/n07222003_200307223.html
The General delivery the award cited "meritorious service in combat," which is pretty ambiguos, and then he moved right on to her receiving the POW medal.
there could be alot of reasons they arent giving out alot of details on her treatment or the citation yet. i know guys who are still waiting on decorations from afghanistan because of delays in investigating the incidents to make sure the decorations are legit. irony is the underserved ones from asskissing go thru fast no problem.
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Originally posted by Apache
I still don't understand why some feel she doesn't deserve the Bronze Star.
Refresh my memory but heroic isn't the only qualifier is it? Isn't meritorious service in there some where?
She was in a non combat unit full of clerks, cooks and maintenance personnel. They were in a combat situation. Her vehicle crashed due to being hit by direct/indirect enemy fire. She received injuries. She was taken prisoner of war.
Other than the purple heart, is there any combat medal she could have been awarded? If memory serves, the Bronze Star is the lowest in rank of combat awards.
Hope this helps...
The Bronze Star Medal is awarded to any person who, while serving in any capacity in or with the Army of the United States after 6 December 1941, distinguished himself or herself by heroic or meritorious achievement or service, not involving participation in aerial flight, in connection with military operations against an armed enemy; or while engaged in military operations involving conflict with an opposing armed force in which the United States is not a belligerent party.
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It was a joke, Nancy, hence the smiley...;)
SOB
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Can anyone tell me about PFC Miller? Was he killed in action? I heard somehwhere that the 'hero' of the battle was shot and stabbed, perhaps this was Miller.
Killing 9 Iraqis while being only a PFC and the rest of his convoy was either pinned or stunned, now theres something to be proud of.
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I knew that bettie:D
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Originally posted by davidpt40
Can anyone tell me about PFC Miller? Was he killed in action? I heard somehwhere that the 'hero' of the battle was shot and stabbed, perhaps this was Miller.
Killing 9 Iraqis while being only a PFC and the rest of his convoy was either pinned or stunned, now theres something to be proud of.
He is alive and was rightfully so awarded the silver star.
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I was searching and found a PFC miller that was killed in action, 19 year old Anthony Miller (Iraqi indirect fire). I guess Miller is a pretty common name in the military.
Has the Army done anything to address the M16 jamming problem?
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davidpt40: Has the Army done anything to address the M16 jamming problem?
It's not a problem. It's a feature of an M-16 rifle. Nothing at all can be done to address the jamming problem and still keep it shooting straight.
You either get a reliable autometic rifle or an accurate one. If you figure out a way to combine both, you would be a billionaire.
For short-range fighting in a dusty/sandy environment where you are not necessarily the one initiating a firefight (so you cannot prepare your weapon accordingly), a Mini-14 (basically an M-14 in 5.56 NATO) would serve much more reliably than an M-16. Of course you would never get the same accuracy.
miko
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A listing from an unofficial source on who got what award, but not any of the individual citations.
http://www.elpasotimes.com/stories/borderland/20030703-132016.shtml
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Originally posted by davidpt40
Has the Army done anything to address the M16 jamming problem?
They did in the report. It says something about the weapon not being maintenanced and taken care of properly for the conditions they were in. . PFC Miller’s didn’t seem to have a problem. I wonder if he cleaned his regularly?
Others had the same weapons and were in combat conditions and didn’t seem to have the mechanical problems the 507th had during the ambush.
They’re a maintenance company that was on overdrive from wrecking, fixing, and towing other equipment. They simply did not think to keep their weapons in good condition. They were in the back and by all accounts probably considered themselves one level above RAMF’s.
It will end up being a big learning experience for future commanders and support personnel. I bet the 507th will be used as an example for many years to come.
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Originally posted by miko2d It's not a problem. It's a feature of an M-16 rifle. Nothing at all can be done to address the jamming problem and still keep it shooting straight.
You either get a reliable autometic rifle or an accurate one. If you figure out a way to combine both, you would be a billionaire.
For short-range fighting in a dusty/sandy environment where you are not necessarily the one initiating a firefight (so you cannot prepare your weapon accordingly), a Mini-14 (basically an M-14 in 5.56 NATO) would serve much more reliably than an M-16. Of course you would never get the same accuracy.
miko [/B]
spot on about reliability and accuracy. never had problems with the 16s myself. guys were looking to use 14s in afghanistan so they could get some more range but with no rails wasnt worth the tradeoff of losing optics and a gl if you wanted one. i think they didnt dream of being ambushed and some of the weapons hadnt been properly maintained. ambushing force wasnt that big. marine support units were hit by similar ambushes and fought them off.
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Originally posted by miko2d
davidpt40: Has the Army done anything to address the M16 jamming problem?
It's not a problem. It's a feature of an M-16 rifle. Nothing at all can be done to address the jamming problem and still keep it shooting straight.
You either get a reliable autometic rifle or an accurate one. If you figure out a way to combine both, you would be a billionaire.
For short-range fighting in a dusty/sandy environment where you are not necessarily the one initiating a firefight (so you cannot prepare your weapon accordingly), a Mini-14 (basically an M-14 in 5.56 NATO) would serve much more reliably than an M-16. Of course you would never get the same accuracy.
miko
Very interesting Miko, I've always wondered why they could not completely resolve the ar-15 jamming issues.
I also think that its ironic that during the VN war, the majority of the m-16s issued had long barrels and now the military is upgrading to the M-4 variant with shorter barrel. Most of the conflicts these days seem to be in dessert areas rather than jungle terrain. Not all conflicts of course and if in close quarted combat the shorter barrel could help I suppose. I've read that soldiers in Iraq complained about the range of the m-4 in Iraqs open terrain. Im not an m-16 or gun expert by any means.
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Originally posted by miko2d
davidpt40: Has the Army done anything to address the M16 jamming problem?
It's not a problem. It's a feature of an M-16 rifle. Nothing at all can be done to address the jamming problem and still keep it shooting straight.
You either get a reliable autometic rifle or an accurate one. If you figure out a way to combine both, you would be a billionaire.
For short-range fighting in a dusty/sandy environment where you are not necessarily the one initiating a firefight (so you cannot prepare your weapon accordingly), a Mini-14 (basically an M-14 in 5.56 NATO) would serve much more reliably than an M-16. Of course you would never get the same accuracy.
miko
There is truth here (hate to agree with miko lol ) If you keep it clean and lubed M-16 works great and is accurate. Trouble is keeping it lubed in sand storms prevents keeping it clean and they hate to shoot dry. The M-2 (ma duce) BMG .50 likes to be sopping wet with lube and I saw many GI's jacking the handle to clear them on the news after a few rounds. The Mini- 14 or -30 is a loose weapon and will work with quite a bit of dirt in it. The AC-556 was Rugers full auto version and was not really a contender due to it's lousey accuracy. I have a two AR-15's and one each of the Ruger Mini-14 and Mini-30 and this is true with the semi versions also.
In the desert you need to clean your weapon at least twice a day to keep it working, and that is if you are not shooting it. If you shoot it then clean twice a day and after firing.
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She did absolutely nothing to get the bronze star. If she gets it then all the POW's should get one. The whole situation is an embarrassment. Getting lost. Getting ambushed. Not knowing proper procedure to defend in case of ambush. Riffle jams from lack of maintenance. Unfortunately the Army is using this as PR to cover up the mistakes made.
The M16 is a very capable riffle. It is extremely sensitive to the elements especially moisture. The jamming could have been avoided if they simply cleaned it daily without using tons of CLP, kept the ejection port cover closed and placed a sock or some other cloth material over the muzzle compensator. I have never had an M16 jam on me and could not correct the problem.
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can i have a medal too?
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The M-2 (ma duce) BMG .50 likes to be sopping wet with lube and I saw many GI's jacking the handle to clear them on the news after a few rounds.
Scotter
Or, even though it's hard to imagine, somebody didn't bother to set the headspace and timing (specifically the timing). It's a somewhat involved but not hard process that involves a firing range, but absolutely necessary when you draw a .50 or you can get no fires or single shots, etc. After reading some of the stuff on Hackworth.com you have to wonder.
U.S. Army leaders: Get your head out
The writer is a Marine Captain and a Light Armored Vehicle platoon commander with 4th Light Armored Reconnaissance Battalion, he has been in the gulf since February, crossed the LOD on day one of the ground war and has been in Iraq ever since. Good lesson on why the Army is getting people killed and the Marines are not. -- Hack
"On the Army Captain, I pulled over an Army Convoy of about 30 vehicles and told them to put their flak and helmets on and post some security. I then found some Captain and told him, very nicely, what the deal was with the ambushes and the threats, etc. I told him to square away his convoy. He then tells me that he cannot do that because they are technically not his troops. (I guess it was a mixed bag of units). I asked him if he was serious. He said yes and then I gave him a class about why was still in Iraq b/c the Army was ****ed up and had no leadership starting with him. I then told him "to carry on" and that "I am done with you for now" He then left and got back in his HMMWV."
http://www.sftt.org/cgi-bin/csNews/csNews.cgi?database=Special%20Reports%20Hack.db&command=viewone&op=t&id=17&rnd=338.00142096989134
http://www.sftt.org/article07132003a.html
Charon
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I have never had an M16 jam on me and could not correct the problem.
Jamusta
Apparently Jam, it's an "Army of Two" these days. The fighters and the logistic people. CTT stuff is apparently not that important anymore for the "non warriors."
Again from hackworth.com:
http://www.hackworth.com/article04032002c.html
Next to me, my wife Eilhys is scribbling notes even faster than I am. I brought her along to correct for my own bias against coed training and to make sure I'm fair to female recruits. She's writing on a small pad of General Barrett's personal notepaper, which she liberated from his desk along with one of his pens. The ballpoint is complimentary, a give-away souvenir, but the note pad, with its two red stars isn't. Each time she jots something down and rips off another sheet he smiles tightly. When she tells him the chow on post is "despicably unhealthy," he heaves an Al Gore sigh and the projector guy quickly picks up speed.
"We are here to provide these young people with opportunity," he says sturdily.
"Whoa, General," I say, "I thought we were here to prepare them for war."
I can feel Eilhys pulling on my choke leash. Okay, I tell myself. It's not about General Barrett. The Army has a real problem. It has to find those 80,000 people every year to do its job and they're hard to come by right now because the job market's been so target rich. Why sign up for the military and stand in the rain and get blisters and maybe get yourself killed when you can earn good money elsewhere and even MacDonald's is offering management training programs? If you're not from an old-fashioned family with a strong tradition of military service, if you're not a jock or someone born with a warrior's soul, you'd have to be nuts. So you don't have to be a genius to understand today's pressure for maximum bodies, minimum attrition and a triage training philosophy that says: **** it. If they don't get it in Basic, we can square them away when they reach their units.
The problem is, war's not a three strikes and you're out game. One strike, a single mistake, and you're in a body bag with the rest of your squad, your platoon's short, your company's crippled, the battalion's ****ed and at Division HQ they're wondering why the battle's being lost.
He concedes that the recruits are a mixed bag, but says that's the leadership challenge. He calls it Generation D for Digital. "They're less fit, but they're mostly bright. Their motivation is different. They're individualistic. They come in watching tv, playing Nintendo."
They also come in with an aAttitude the size of Duke Nukem or Lara Croft--that cyber chick with the titanium tits in Tomb Raider I, II, and III--and their attitude all too often is inversely proportional to their capabilities.
On that score, Lt. Col. Henry has no illusions. He says his mission is to sort them without prejudice.- "You have to identify what I call the Titanium Soldier," he explains, "And you have to identify the Porcelain soldier. The Titanium is all-varsity, an athlete, tremendous. You can push him hard. The Porcelain isn't doing so well. Maybe he's very scared, or maybe it's just that Grampa told him never to volunteer. You pound 'em too hard and you break 'em. You really got to watch it. These are good people. I don't want to send them home"
I feel the flashback coming--, the day I got off the train at Fort Knox ("Come here, dogface. Your bellybutton is mine." ). I see myself a few days later trotting around the parade ground, holding the 60-pound base-plate of a 81mm mortar over my head, screaming "I'M a BIG bellybutton BIRD" at the top of my voice, shouting and staggering until my arms finally give out, the steel plate misses my head by a hair, and I'm lying with my nose in the mud wondering if I'll ever get out of Basic alive.
The point being, of course, that the very ruthlessness of the drill hardened me for something one hell of a lot more brutal.
Combat.
"That's not our mission," Lt. Col. Henry says. The rough stuff's for the shock troops training at Benning. "Here we're inoculating them for the prospect of maybe having a fight, hanging in there until the cavalry or infantry arrives to save the day."
Tough training for the line units, marshmallows for the rear? Talk about denial. In modern warfare, there is no front. Command and control nodes, airfields, supply dumps, logistics units, transport, the hospital, everything's fair game. If anything, in guerrilla warfare and terrorist actions, those targets are even more likely to be hit. A young sergeant I know put it this way: 'That U.S. Army name tag on your chest is the biggest bull's-eye in the world. These young soldiers are going to be in Korea. They're going to be in Bosnia. They are really exposed, man. When our cooks and clerks ran convoys of deuces and hummers through the streets of Mogadishu, do you think the Somalis were not going to shoot at them because they were 'noncombatants'''
Charon
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Originally posted by Charon
After reading some of the stuff on Hackworth.com you have to wonder.
take the sftt stuff with a small grain of salt. alot of the stuff there is straight from the horses mouth but some stuff there is from someone with an axe to grind and is false. ive seen maybe one of every ten or fifteen 'reports' that i knew was not true in any way whatsoever. one from around a year ago dealt with my unit and the guy that wrote it in was someone who was put in his place because he couldnt buy a clue with a million in cash. but stuff like that is by far the exception to the rule. something about a captain not being able to give orders to post security for a convoy dont sound right. not his units? if hes the ranking o he has the authority. if he wasnt the ranking o the marine capt would have gone to the ranking o. if theres more than one capt with the convoy the would have had a talk amongst the capts about it.
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That definitely sounds like something an army captain would say.. These are not my troops...geeez last i checked you are a comissioned officer in the military.
Been in both branches of service.. USMC and US ARMY
Heres my opinion of both
Marines... From day one it felt like they wanted to get rid of me. From MEPS all the way through boot camp and MCT. It was like I didnt deserve to be in they're beloved Marine Corps. Pride and discipline are very important. 2 NJP's and you can be kicked out. Training is taken very seriously.. Marines will kick you out for failing PT, riffle qual, swim qual, although I never seen anyone kicked out for swim qual. They are stuck in their traditions, which can be good and bad. Thats the reason I got out. Didnt like to be told what I can wear and such.
Army... Didnt have to go to basic for the Army but did go through MOS training. I saw why Drill SGTs are needed at their MOS schools. They dont teach soldiers anything at basic. There is no respect or discipline. They have more money which means better living conditions. Their training isnt up to standard in most units. It is the kinder gentler Army but it was fun. Thats why they call your duty station permanent party.
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Originally posted by jamusta
That definitely sounds like something an army captain would say.. These are not my troops...geeez last i checked you are a comissioned officer in the military.
man if you value your life you wont ever call me a commisioned officer. call me an army commisioned officer in some cultures i could shoot you and it would be justified. :) sounded weird to me and still does. if the army capt was a ticket puncher and of no worth as a combat o hes still putting himself in a dangerous position when not reacting to warnings of ambush by giving orders to counter such a threat. never been in the army. worked with marines a great deal. when it comes to non special operations units there is a difference ill agree there.
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Here it just comes across as media hype and the military wanting a hero and "warm fuzzy" story from the war.
All very hollywood, and im sure they can't wait to make the movie.. The military's version of events is alot different to what has since been made public knowledge and the events as they really happend.
Then again the whole sorry episode is turning into a farce.
Medal for Valour? Can't see why.
Medal for being wounded? Never understood that one anyway.
...-Gixer
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Sorry but I have to say this.... There is no way that this girl was beat to an inch of her life. If this was the case, why? Why was she the only one beat so badly? Why would they beat her then send her to a hospital? She cant remember anything that happened but she can say she wasnt sexually attacked? Dont you think she could remember being beat? She supposedly got out of the hummer standing after being hit with RPG and running into another vehicle? Its not adding up...
Im with Furball.... Can I have one?
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Originally posted by jamusta
Sorry but I have to say this.... There is no way that this girl was beat to an inch of her life. If this was the case, why? Why was she the only one beat so badly? Why would they beat her then send her to a hospital? She cant remember anything that happened but she can say she wasnt sexually attacked? Dont you think she could remember being beat? She supposedly got out of the hummer standing after being hit with RPG and running into another vehicle? Its not adding up...
Im with Furball.... Can I have one?
she was in the hospital because the iraqi intel types had set up shop there. they knew we dont target hospitals. they also had a torture room set up in the same hospital she was in. she was worked over somehow. she just now came home shed been in a hospital in germany from the time she was rescued almost until the time she came home.
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I take my last post back.No one who is in a combat situation,even a supply or maintenance convoy,should get a medal until they get it cleared by a bunch of on-line gamers.
Have a nice fluff'n day.
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Originally posted by Gixer
Medal for Valour? Can't see why.
i doubt its for valor. big difference between bronze star and bronze star with a v device. almost positive no v on her star. that would be totally wrong if you asked me.
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Originally posted by Sox62
I take my last post back.No one who is in a combat situation,even a supply or maintenance convoy,should get a medal until they get it cleared by a bunch of on-line gamers.
Have a nice fluff'n day.
No there's the best post in this thread.
I've fired thousands of rounds from M16s, both A1 and A2, and M4, in all kinds of conditions, and jams are very infrequent. Overall it's a very reliable weapon. Someone didn't do their job if their weapons weren't maintained properly. Few months ago I put 360 rounds down range as fast as I could pull the trigger and change magazines and had not one malfunction. Couldn't touch the handgrips after I was done, but it performed flawlessly :)
As for the medal, how really cares? The Bronze Star was cheapened a long time ago. In Desert Storm, the guy who ran the generators at our base camp got a Bronze Star for "Continuosly providing power while under constant threat of enemy indirect fire".....
It's a good thing morale wise, I really don't care if she killed 100 Iraqis with a spork to get it.
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They had 2 Warrant Officers and a Sgt. They would not torture a PFC.. She knows absolutely nothing about anything sensitive to the operations over there. But hey what do I know. It is the Army way.
Like I said in my opinion if she gets one they should all get one.
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One thing I do know is that there were some upset WWII and Vietnam vets who held the Silver Star (different medal, I know, but it goes to showing trends) that felt their medals had been cheapened the way Silver Stars were handed out after Gulf War I. They felt that the standards for winning a Silver Star had been drastically lowered for showmanship reasons.
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Well she did better than her partners who got the convoy lost AND got killed. Unless your saving somebody, getting killed is worthless.
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Exactly you hit the nail on the head....There was a time when they handed out medals for charging machine gun pits with grenades.. Now you get one for not firing a shot and getting captured.
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Originally posted by Sox62
I take my last post back.No one who is in a combat situation,even a supply or maintenance convoy,should get a medal until they get it cleared by a bunch of on-line gamers.
Have a nice fluff'n day.
Well said. Come out to the west coast mini-con. I'll buy you a beer for that one.
MiniD
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Originally posted by davidpt40
Well she did better than her partners who got the convoy lost AND got killed. Unless your saving somebody, getting killed is worthless.
In addition to Lynch, these five received the Bronze Star: Joseph Hudson, Sgt. James Riley, Spec. Edgar Hernandez, and Spec. Shoshana Johnson.
Pfc. Patrick Miller, received the Silver Star.
Johnson is also female. No movie deals for her... I wonder if it's because she's black and not as "perky" as Lynch.
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i don't know nuttn about the army, but when i was in the Marines every marine was trained (and retrained) as a rifleman, your "second" job was cook, clerk,truck driver,etc, when crunch time came you dropped your frying pan and picked up your rifle, it's called 'force mulitplyer".
i was a truck mech, but half my in-service training was in small unit combat tactics.
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Interview with 507th POWs on NBC now.
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Originally posted by john9001
i don't know nuttn about the army, but when i was in the Marines every marine was trained (and retrained) as a rifleman, your "second" job was cook, clerk,truck driver,etc, when crunch time came you dropped your frying pan and picked up your rifle, it's called 'force mulitplyer".
i was a truck mech, but half my in-service training was in small unit combat tactics.
A good friend of mine was a cook in the USMC and said the exact same thing. Only makes sense, maximizing assets.
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hmmm . some of the ones that complain about every probably never been in service. and does one know what it is like to be in that situation and instead of being killed was taken prisoner, which in its self is a nightmare. I served during vietnam days and If she deserves it for what she did under combat condictions and fighting back till she could no more is alot to ask of a young person, My hat is off to those that serve and served, And same way it was in the Army too everyone was infantry and then your specialty, You worked inb your specialty. unless they said grab a weapon your infantry now . you went into the bush Infatry First mos secondary
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Do you really want to know what they did to her?
Well, it seems that most of her broken bones came at the hands of her interrigators. There was also talk that she was sexually assulted.
For signing up the Army as her simple job and then to be captured, tortured, and then face life and death for days, a Purple Heart and a Bronze Star is the least you can do for Jessica.
I had nightmares for three years after a 30 minute firefight with a real enemy. She'll have them for the rest of her life.