Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: lazs2 on July 27, 2003, 10:26:17 AM
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Funked, nopoop and hoolign were all over yesterday. made funked put away his super sophisticated WRX adn drive the retro tech mobile... 1969 was a good year for big people.
lazs
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It was fun. Gave up a day of being yelled at by my lady...
To spending a day getting yelled at by lazs..
Learned five things:
I fit in funk's car.
Funked fits in funk's car..
We both fit in funk's car AT THE SAME TIME !!
If lazs is yelling at you, it's good to have Hooligan around..
South bound Hwy 80 on a Saturday afternoon SUCKS !!!
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Just the el camino? You didn't toss them the keys to the healy?
MiniD
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that is my normal speaking voice... left over from when I was a drunk no doubt.
Hoolign drove the Healey... neither funked nor nopoop will fit in the Healey.
lazs
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lazs if I ever make it to Dixon, can you please force me to drive your car also? I know it would take alot of convincing and pleading, but eventually I would give in :)
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no prob loser. I will have to get new rear tires tho after funked's little exhibition. even telling him to not "get on it" till we got to about 15-20 mph didn't help... the man has feet of lead.
lazs
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Unfortunately I'm ruined for Jap cars now. I tried to do a couple of launches for Poopie in the WRX, and it felt super slow. I was like "WTF is wrong with my car?" Nothing was wrong with the car. :)
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Hehehe... even "2 Fast, 2 Furious" had to give props to the big block. ;)
MiniD
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Yeah, Funk, there's "quick" and there's "awesome".
You have "quick", Laz has "awesome".
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Was this in a straight line or on a curvy A to B? 'Quick' and 'awesome' might be very interchangeable depending on the circumstances. ;)
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Dowding... when anyone is bragging on their acceleration and 1/4 times... the rest is irrelevant.
"Let's see how it does on the track"... the last battle cry of the riceboy coughing on a big block's tire smoke as the big block pulls away.
MiniD
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Sounds like it was a cool visit.
I admit I always kinda laugh driving past Dixon going over to the Bay Area. I know lazs is there but doesn't have any beer in the frig, and still if I stopped, I would wonder if we would talk about hippy's, nascar, football and p*ssy. Or if my ultimate nightmare would come true and he'd mention missuns and tool sheds to close together in a goofy video game. I bet it would be fun.
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We didn't talk about football.
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Originally posted by Dowding
Was this in a straight line or on a curvy A to B? 'Quick' and 'awesome' might be very interchangeable depending on the circumstances. ;)
I think I might have beat him on really curvy stuff, unless he is a better driver than he is a sim pilot. Unfortunately, Roads are straight 99% of the time, so it's academic. The Elkie has plenty of grip, and he would have to really screw up to squander his 2:1 power to weight ratio advantage. I don't think you understand what 500 hp or so is like with a flat torque curve and a 6 speed.
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No football? That’s too bad. If you ever come to Reno, stop by and we’ll discuss my near Drippy like clairvoyance take on the Super Bowl last year. And I’ll let you sit in a modern car with a supercharger and an electronic heads-up display. Not drive it mind you, it’s so deep, it would just make the rest of your lease miserable.
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Nothing else qualifies as "awesome" other than a big block setup to "go".
If you drive or ride in one you will undersand.
It's what comes out of your mouth when your done. Guy let me take out that bright metalic green 427 El Camino "setup" WAY back when I was in high school. Automatic..
Went sideways when it hit second gear.
They seem to raise up when they scream..
All the finess of a sledgehammer
The word fits...
Doesn't apply elsewhere.
You never forget your first ride in a big block.
Built my daughter a 70 Camero, 383 stroker, 202's, headers, 3" exhaust, 411 posi, 4 speed..
It scoots, but it' aint no sledgehammer..that and Cameros are for girls..
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PS Thanks Hooligan for the door prize. I hope you were able to reaffirm your heterosexuality after that movie.
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I MISSED THE MOVIE ?????????????
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Dowding... when anyone is bragging on their acceleration and 1/4 times... the rest is irrelevant.
Hardly... it depends on what speed range you're talking about. 0-60 or 50-70 would be far more applicable to RL, for instance and I'm pretty sure the gap isn't so large between your big engined cars and the turbo charged types.
"Let's see how it does on the track"... the last battle cry of the riceboy coughing on a big block's tire smoke as the big block pulls away.
Hardly, times two... I never said anything about a track - I'm talking about varying road surface, camber etc - common around my way. Using the steering wheel is great fun.
Both big engined cars and your turbo cars have their relative merits. Depends on what gets your goat, I suppose.
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Dowding,
Nice rhetoric from someone who's used to making those very excuses. The big block does make a difference. Maybe some day you can visit lazs and find out for yourself.
MiniD
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lol excuses for what?
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dowding... if you are talking about england then.... I would rather be in funkeds car. I drove 1200 miles in england and asside from everyone else driving on the wrong side of the road.... it sucks for a big car there... the roads aren't wide enough for even small cars and they are very rough... the weather sucks and the subaru woud be ten times better in the wet... The elky will go sideways at 70 if the road is wet and you are dumb enough to kick in the secondaries but...
in the good ol USA... where one of our lanes equal 2 of yours plus your 6" "shoulders"... the elky would do ok.
It has been set up to handle at the expense of straight line performance (no, really guys).. the susspension is all bilstein and Hotchkiss components. In the U.S.A. especially in California... we have a lot of tight turns and uphill sweepers. uPHILL means that you are turning while going uphill... the elky does pretty good going uphill and turning..
lazs
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they all suck compared to this : -
(http://www.plmini.co.uk/pictures/large/cooper-t.jpg)
:D
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Originally posted by Dowding
I'm talking about varying road surface, camber etc
Jeez Dowding, were not talking camber, road surface, tire composition, temperture, current atmospheric barometric pressure, suspension adjustments according to road conditions...
We're talking about sledgehammers..
The size of the car payment, the ease and comfort in which it negotiates curves is of no matter. It's along the lines of the "rice" argument versus a Harley.
You need to experience a balls to the wall big block.
Until you do, you won't understand.
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furball... I'm sure you are right. in the movie "italian job" those little cars were much faster than anything I could ever build.
hey poopie... think I could make dowding cry?
lazs
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Very nice furball. Have a friend with a Cooper S. Was leaving the local R/C field last week and there had to be twenty of them pulling into the Resturant on the corner. They were "done"
Two or three Beemer Coopers were with them. Beemers looked sad..
But that's to be expected.
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And you need to experience going 70 mph round a very small roundabout followed by acceleration to 140 mph in half a mile in a 360 bhp Mitsubishi Evo VII. Then having to brake to 0 at the entrance to the next roundabout to avoid the car already on it. Until you've done that you also won't understand.
Laz - I agree and to paraphrase what I said earlier - it's all about horses for courses. ;)
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Make me cry? lol
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**** you poopers. ;)
Dowding,
Here's a few more to add to your collection:
- Yeah, but they get real ****ty gas mileage.
- Big Blocks aren't practical.
- Who needs all that horsepower anyways?
Basically, trying to establish that anything less will hold its own against it is pretty foolish. Think of them as the killer whales of the automotive industry. They're simply at the top of their food chain.
Me... I drive a mini. I just don't go around trying to compare it to all the cars out there that will simply kick its bellybutton in most aspects. But then, I'll be the first to admit I wasn't looking for an ass-kicker when I bought the car. I was looking for fun, stylish and good gas mileage. My car will out perform Laz's El Camino in precisely 2 categories. You get my car out on any track vs most big blocks and, just like most other euro/japanese cars, the big block will simply drive right over the top of me. You're only hope is that you could make up the time while he refuels.
MiniD
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Originally posted by Dowding
And you need to experience going 70 mph round a very small roundabout followed by acceleration to 140 mph in half a mile in a 360 bhp Mitsubishi Evo VII. Then having to brake to 0 at the entrance to the next roundabout to avoid the car already on it. Until you've done that you also won't understand.
Back off guys, Dowding once got a ride in a fast car.
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One thing that doesn't translate over the internet is the noise. It sounded like they were holding a stock car race inside my cranium.
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I was just kidding, i just love mini's but they cant compare to the cars you mention here.
They aren't fast but sitting that close to the ground, feeling all the bumps and throwing it round corners like a kart makes it seem much faster than it actually is!
Just a very fun car to drive! :D
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We all took a ride in lazs', we all took a ride in funk's..
Neither one of them had to balls to jump in my 87 Aries blah grey bone stock K car..
WITH Hairy Condish I might add..
Wussies..
Ya have to be a special breed to strap it up in a the K car..
I'm one of the few with the wavo-rancheros to step up to the plate..
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You get my car out on any track vs most big blocks and, just like most other euro/japanese cars, the big block will simply drive right over the top of me.
Let me sum up your argument to date. Basically you disagree with the assertion that big blocks are beaten by any Jap/Euro car, which was apprently made by me but is not to be seen in this thread. So in disagreeing with this absolute assertion proposed by no-one, you provide an absolute assertion yourself as counter-argument; basically that all big blocks will beat most Jap/Euro cars on any track. Anywhere. In support of your theory, you use the unusual example of BMW Mini Cooper vs Big Block as proof that the Big Block reigns supreme over Jap/Euro cars on the track.
You're so full of crap, but at least you're entertaining. :D
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Wow dowding... you spend alot of time defending statements you claim you didn't make.
Let me put it very clearly for you:
The Evolution is a great car that would get its bellybutton kicked by many big blocks costing 1/3 the price. On the track or off.
Everyone always thinks the fastest car they've been in must surely be the fastest out there. The evolution aint the fastest out there. It aint the quickest out there. Hell... you'd have to go back to 1964 to find a record it could break.
MiniD
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..it's
...it's..
The car payment argument.
I love those.
I haven't had a car payment since 1978.
Do the math...
Continue..
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Big Blocks are better than rice burners and eurotrash for the same reasons the F6F, F4U and P-47 are better than the Swallow... errr Spit, Pee Fifty Run and the ultimate rice rocket, the Zeke.
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bah, you guys are silly at arguing
i bet a 20B cosmo engine dropped in my rx7 and tuned would destroy that evo, the wrx, and the elkie :)
rotary rocket - want more power? add a rotor.
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Wow dowding... you spend alot of time defending statements you claim you didn't make.
Nice comeback. Doesn't really point out where my last post was wrong, but at least it didn't take a long time to read and dismiss. ;)
The Evolution is a great car that would get its bellybutton kicked by many big blocks costing 1/3 the price. On the track or off.
Who said anything about price? I thought we talking about performance...
And someone mentioned something about stock arguments a minute ago...
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The best RX7s have small block V8's in them. ;)
MiniD
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Dowding... I was talking about performance AND price. Now... we're getting back to stock? Cause if that's the case... you'll still be unable to run that EVO against 60's era big blocks.
MiniD
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Dowding, I've done both.
In France I was doing some illegal racing with some of the university kids. What a load of fun. Especially when you help a guy trying to dig out daddy's sierra crosworth out of the muddy field.
I was runing the good old Opel Manta, nothing fancy but a great great fun in those European countryside hilly road. You don't want a guy to pass you in the turn, you just do a power slide hugging the inner turn... roads are so narrow.
In Florida, I was runing a Honda Prelude in the backcity dirt roads, oh man, what a blast. Dust everywhere while you do those wiiiiiiide power slides at 70mph. Ruins the car, but so much fun, screew it!
Well, recently I aquired a 455 cu.in (7 liters something) 73 Pontiac Formula. All stock for now. Only 250HP and 370lbs of Tq (torquy mama isn't she). You know where my pleasure comes from?
The SOUND!
Incredible. I'm like a kid in front of a naked woman ... I have this sutpid smile everytime I fire up the engine ... I actually let a "Muahahahaha" exit my mouth.
When i leave the driveway doing my "brougt brougt brougt" at low iddle .... eeeee ... that's the sound of power papas. This sound is authentic, it's not generated by some $$$ exaust like on my Prelude. I never bring this car on a track yet, so I don't know much about "what it can do". The pleasure is in the sound, the raw "red light HP" ... and lately, flooring in the turn and let the rear go ... way easier to do, just tap the accelerator. Don't need to "launch the rear" with the handbrake like the front wheel drive, or "little wheel kick" like the underpowered rear wheel drive Opel Manta.
I have been in both side, and like you said, whoever advocates one OR the otehr, haven't traveled around:( To each his fun. Muscle cars offer the advantage of a lot of fun for cheap.
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What are gibbering on about now? Even though I've said umpteen times already - the conditions for the comparison are paramount. The track time for one of those 60s cars would be appalling on a twisty tracks - the brakes back then were hopeless, the tyres even worse, it would never compare to the Evo with its advanced tyres and brakes. Over a 1/4 mile, on the other hand, the Evo would be beaten - although it would be ahead for a good distance before the brute power of the muscle car showed itself.
Absolutely Frency - as I've said all along - it's horses for courses when it comes to any meaningful comparison. One is your bag or it ain't. Personally I love the sound of big engines - I grew up watching Smokey and the Bandit and The Dukes of Hazard. :D
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The Sierra Cosworth - now there was a car! :)
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ahhh ha!! lazs'y gots an El Co.huh??
perfect..im otw Dixon now to pork ur fuel....see how far yoy 1/4 tank gets u:D
btw,,last 5 years on i-80 between sacto and SF is Bullsheit...ttraffic is so frikn crappy now...
oink oink
BiGB
xoxo
funny my shifter cart kiks allthese cars assses in acceleration and cornering and braking..ahh i love that little rokt:)..
lazs ..maybe someday ill callu to come race at the Dixon Trak:)
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Sure thing dowding. Whatever you say. Of course... you might want to read up on 64-69 GT racing before saying too much more.
The 70's cars came around and were a major set back because performance was just getting too out of hand. Some aspects have caught up and even passed the older cars... but not as many as younguns like you think.
You can get fast, and you can get fun, and it will be more of a car than you'll ever need... but it still won't be the same as the late 60's big blocks... it'll just get better gas mileage.
MiniD
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Originally posted by BGBMAW
ahhh ha!! lazs'y gots an El Co.huh??
perfect..im otw Dixon now to pork ur fuel....see how far yoy 1/4 tank gets u:D
btw,,last 5 years on i-80 between sacto and SF is Bullsheit...ttraffic is so frikn crappy now...
oink oink
BiGB
xoxo
funny my shifter cart kiks allthese cars assses in acceleration and cornering and braking..ahh i love that little rokt:)..
lazs ..maybe someday ill callu to come race at the Dixon Trak:)
BTW BGB, fatality at IKF race in Davis yesterday. :(
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Of course... you might want to read up on 64-69 GT racing before saying too much more.
We're talking about racing cars now? You've shifted the goal posts into a whole new postal code. If you want to compare the big block racing cars to an Evo equivalent, you'd have to use the WRC rally Evo. That would be an interesting comparison indeed.
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The 65-69 cars were pretty much set up for racing (much like the EVO). Like I said... read up on it. You might actually learn something and stop spewing so much nonsense.
MiniD
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Originally posted by Furball
they all suck compared to this : -
(http://www.plmini.co.uk/pictures/large/cooper-t.jpg)
:D
hehe went out in my mates brothers mini 75 bhp it had IN A MINI!!!!! :D
we went out down all the country roads and just couldnt stop laughing, no body roll, round corners at 60 u wouldnt normally do at that speed, tho we did slow down when we got a seized caliper and nearly went in a ditch.
Such fun cars not like that new thing....
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what!!!!!! no way...
they can only race 80 shifters there! omg...
that is horrible..
roll over ..break neck?? only way i can see dying??
dam that is really sad..poor family..prays for them
BiGB
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My dad was working the race. It was one of the junior classes with mixed 2 & 4 cycle karts. One kid lost his chain and swerved across the track so he could get back to the pits I guess. But he didn't raise his hand or anything, and a following kart t-boned him. The guy who lost his chain was OK, but the other kart went airborne and flipped and came down on top of the poor kid, head first. His helmet came off and he came to rest with the kart on top of him. They helicoptered him out but he was DOA.
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Originally posted by Mini D
Dowding... when anyone is bragging on their acceleration and 1/4 times... the rest is irrelevant.
Originally posted by Dowding
Over a 1/4 mile, on the other hand, the Evo would be beaten
Does this end the argument?
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guys... it's not a big deal to me. I can take frenchys car and dump a couple grand in the motor.. a couple 3 in the brakes and suspension and maybe another 3 in a richmond gear 6 speed and... you will have one neat car... you will have built it yourself and driving/riding it it will be an experiance that you will not forget. I am sure that dowding has a friend of a friend of a cousin who gave him a ride in some car he bought off the showroom and is real proud of his ability to pick just the right color combo for it.
Sorry about the cart guy. BGB... I would love to go to the track with you. I don't know anything about carts. you are also right about the traffic even between Dixon and SAC. And.... about fuel... the elky weighs 3700 lbs and the big block drains the 20 gallon tank in 200 miles or less..but...
dowding.. the evo is not the only car that will do 140 quickly. 5500 rpm in sixth in the elky is like 174mph.. I have no doubt the big block will pull those gears but I don't want to go that fast in the car. the big block pulls as hard in fifth and sixth as it does in 2nd and 3rd.. that is what big blocks do. I am sorry that torque is illegal in england but we enjoy it.... course... gas is less than 2 bucks a gallon here. I don't think you have a clue about the effort some guys have put into the old sixties cars. They will go arount the track with cars that cost 5 times as much. Mine is nothing special but it is mine and it is fun.
lazs
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Does this end the argument?
Eh? I wasn't arguing that the Evo or similar would beat a big block over the 1/4 mile. I never argued that. I pointed out superiority over the quarter mile does not automatically equate to superiority when a few curves are thrown in. Perhaps you should pay closer attention to the thread in future.
the evo is not the only car that will do 140 quickly. 5500 rpm in sixth in the elky is like 174mph.. I have no doubt the big block will pull those gears but I don't want to go that fast in the car.
Did I say the Evo was the only car in the world capable of 140 mph?
I don't think you have a clue about the effort some guys have put into the old sixties cars.
Using modern materials and technology. MiniD was saying that stock 60s car could beat a stock Evo over any track in the world. I think we both know that is BS.
I am sorry that torque is illegal in england but we enjoy it.... course... gas is less than 2 bucks a gallon here.
Last time I check torque was not illegal. I think they'd have touble passing legislation banning the existance of a scientific parameter. It would be like trying to ban temperature, or acceleration or deceleration. You do have some weird ideas Lazs.
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.wow..a little kid at that...really is bad...
one of the reasons im scared to compete in my 125 cc...too many hungry karts in first turn..
lazs..125cc shifter karts are insane(if u weigh under 200 or so)....u get a chance drive down to Argile park..right off main road dixon...track is top nocth..and very fassst
as i was filing up my mustang today..i lafffed,,only cost me 20 bucks...hhehe small bellybutton gas tank..
btw any1 recomend an air filter system thats bettr then stock gt 2001 mustang tht doesnt void warranty?
weeeee new tires and rims soon.....skkkeeet skirt...sideways around corner
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20 bucks would buy you about 4 gallons of fuel here. Thats why you dont see many big block's ;)
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Originally posted by Dowding
Eh? I wasn't arguing that the Evo or similar would beat a big block over the 1/4 mile. I never argued that. I pointed out superiority over the quarter mile does not automatically equate to superiority when a few curves are thrown in. Perhaps you should pay closer attention to the thread in future.
Dowding. Try to imagine me shaking my head with eyes closed in a defeated, humble manner.
Good. Now re-read the entire thread so I dont have to go through cutting and pasting various quotes to show that (as usual) you entered a discussion, turned it into an argument about something not even being discussed, and then claim not to have done so.
Since the discussion was about acceleration and quater mile times, as MiniD attempted to explain to you, the 'Ill beat him in the twisties' argument has no place. Further from that, your attempts to point the finger at others for sending the thread astray when you lose the initial argument are easily identifiable by us silly Yanks - we had Clinton in office for 8 years, you know.
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BGB - any aftermarket airfilter will not void your warrenty.
However the claim that they give you increased power is probably one of the biggest automotive hoaxes out there right now.
Sure it worked fine for pre computer controlled cars, but with todays cars, if you want power from the intake process, you need to change the air meter - a filter alone will get you a nice sound, thats all.
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Now re-read the entire thread so I dont have to go through cutting and pasting various quotes to show that (as usual) you entered a discussion, turned it into an argument about something not even being discussed, and then claim not to have done so.
Oh my, talk about anal retention. No matter, you're still wrong. Read my original post. Read the post directly above it and those above that. They were discussing the relative merits of the Impreza and the Big Block before I even posted. It's that simple even you could get it. A little effort goes a long way.
Why are you so interested anyway?
Further from that, your attempts to point the finger at others for sending the thread astray when you lose the initial argument...
Is it a full moon or something? What are you on about now? I posted all along that whether the performance of one car will outclass another is depedent on the circumstances. That was my point - that there are no absolutes, which is what MiniD was relying on. I also repeatedly said that at the end of day personal preference is the clincher.
No need to get your panties in a wad, entertaining as it is. Carry on!
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dowding... you said that the evo not only would go around a tight roundabout at 70 but then ACCELERATE to 140. I am saying that I could probly go around a "roundabout" pretty well in the old elky and accelerate just fine to 140... you would be looking at taillights... big ones.
but.. don't know if england can make torque illegal... they tax television signals tho.
But dowding... I was talking about my car so.... lets talk about yours. Someone who knows so much about automobiles as you obviously think you do must have a pretty interesting car right? so what is it? How long did it take yu to build it and what do you plane to do to it in the immediate future?
BGB.. get a performance chip for the puter.. That is probly the best bang for the buck but there are lots of mods for mustangs. A K&N filter may add a couple of HP maybe 5 with the chip but they are reusable.
lazs
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Oh and dowding.... while you were going around a roundabout at 70 and accelerating to 140... I been to england... that is crazy... did you think of all the people you would have killed and maimed if you had lost control or had a mechanical failure? for someone so worried about their neighbor owning a firearm yu seem particularly unconcerned about other peoples rights and safety.
lazs
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Where is Funks ""Get a room" (http://www.holidayinn.com) post? :D
Lazs, did you drive the WRX (you know, alone, so you didn't have the additional baggage slowing you down...)
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rip... that was kinda insensitive... with 500 ft lbs of torque or more you tend to forget about extra weight. funked's car is very nice. It sorta reminds me of my 5.0 mustangs but with better traction and a little less torque.
I am eagerly awaiting diowdings response tho. want to know what such an automotive guru drives and why he feels that he can drive so fast without considering the life and limb of his fellow socialists.
lazs
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lol lazs, if you want to play, I'll play.
you said that the evo not only would go around a tight roundabout at 70 but then ACCELERATE to 140. I am saying that I could probly go around a "roundabout" pretty well in the old elky and accelerate just fine to 140... you would be looking at taillights... big ones.
Did I say it couldn't? Nope.
but.. don't know if england can make torque illegal... they tax television signals tho.
lol nice one. Check your sources though, and you'll find you're well off the mark. The license fee pays for the service - it's not a governmental tax. None of that money goes to government coffers to be redistributed, unlike road tax for instance, or tax on tobacco.
But dowding... I was talking about my car so.... lets talk about yours. Someone who knows so much about automobiles as you obviously think you do must have a pretty interesting car right? so what is it? How long did it take yu to build it and what do you plane to do to it in the immediate future?
My car is a hunk o' junk. I freely admit that - but it gets me from A to B. I made a choice when it came to a car - either buy a brand new apartment in the city or a better car. It was an easy choice. One day I know I will have a fast car - and be able to insure it. At 25 years old an Impreza Turbo (not STi, just bog standard turbo) will cost me 2 grand a year to insure. I'll wait a while and build my no claims on a crap car. Also, it's alot more satisfying to get something you've had to work hard to afford - I've done it once and I'll do it again.
Astronomers are experts on stars, but very few have actually been near one to my knowledge. Furthermore, I don't claim to be an expert on cars, but I do have a good level of knowledge. . I've been in a few fast cars and I've been fascinated by motor racing for a very long time; I like to think I can come to an informed opinion on most issues.
I been to england... that is crazy... did you think of all the people you would have killed and maimed if you had lost control or had a mechanical failure?
You went to England and visited a few bars of dubious patronage yada yada yada... yeah I remember. FYI it was 2am and there was no-one on the road in question. The risk was to ourselves only, otherwise we would have not pushed so hard.
...for someone so worried about their neighbor owning a firearm...
And now we have the icing on the cake - the straw man argument based on thin air! Kindly point out where I have said that.
As usual, the argument turns towards guns. And as usual, a few posts down the line you'll be bleating that Europeans should not be concerned with US gun control, even though the subject was raised by yourself.
You're a funny guy Lazs.
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I don't claim to be an expert on cars, but I do have a good level of knowledge. Astronomers are experts on stars, but very few have actually been near one to my knowledge. I've been in a few fast cars and I've been fascinated by motor racing for a very long time; I like to think I can come to an informed opinion on most issues.
LOL!
There's a phrase you should look up dowding. Limited perspective. Then there's a record album you should listen too... it's by Bill Cosby called "200 MPH".
So... have you done any research yet Dowding? Do you know what the quickest car of all time was? Do you know what era had the most various models of high torque performance machines yet? Have you researched 427 side draft? How about AMX? Maybe 440 6 Pack or Challenger Daytona? Maybe even give "hemi" a look too. Afterall... you want to have a "good level of knowledge" don't you? These were all stock features on stock cars... cars that would tear an evo apart. 0-100-0 in 14 seconds dowding. Oh.. that's right... but they didnt' know how to brake back then.
You're island mentality and youthful ignorance has never been more glaring than it is right now Dowding.
MiniD
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Originally posted by lazs2
rip... that was kinda insensitive... with 500 ft lbs of torque or more you tend to forget about extra weight. funked's car is very nice. It sorta reminds me of my 5.0 mustangs but with better traction and a little less torque.
I am eagerly awaiting diowdings response tho. want to know what such an automotive guru drives and why he feels that he can drive so fast without considering the life and limb of his fellow socialists.
lazs
Me insensitive? NEVER! :D (Waves at Mini D's post above(http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/images/smilies/wavey.gif))
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I thought when we talking about stock cars we were talking about stock as in 'show-room' cars... i.e. the sort of car you buy off a dealer. That's why I thought you had shifted the goal posts when you started talking about racing cars.
Like I said, a racing car would have to be compared to a racing car. How about a bit of WRC action? Still think your 60s 'stock' car will beat a WRC thoroughbred on any track?
I like the island mentality jibe. Care to define it and its relevance here? Or is it just another personal attack to be ignored?
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The funny thing is, nobody was really comparing the two nor slamming on funky's scooby. Everyone pretty much acknowledged the little white rice burner was a decent car, but its not something people should go thinking is a monster (I do believe funkypants may have had notions this was the case). The 60's big blocks were monsters. Everyone there pretty much agreed to that.
Then comes dowding trying to throw in a "yeah, but..." then with an "I had a ride in an evolution that would tear apart tons of cars I know absolutely nothing about."
MiniD
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Originally posted by nopoop
I MISSED THE MOVIE ?????????????
I'm pretty sure they watched "Waiting to Exhale"
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Then comes dowding trying to throw in a "yeah, but..." then with an "I had a ride in an evolution that would tear apart tons of cars I know absolutely nothing about."
There you again. You basically said that any 60s big block will beat any car anywhere. I pointed out that such an argument is bollocks - it depends on the circumstances. Someone said, "hey you haven't tried this" I said "but I've tried this and it was pretty good". There was no coverall "This car is the best in the world and beats anything ever built" statement. You're just making it up as you go along to fit your own spiel.
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(http://www.geocities.com/cools367/68shelb.jpg)
Not mine, but sure is purty aint it
Btw,on thursday nights during July and August we have great informal gathering of some amazing cars, guys outta come on down
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LOL. Laz I should have come by!
I am not sure the Goat would have made it out there though lol, I still have not gotten to fixing the cooling system.
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here's an article for you dowding...
0-100-0 (http://www.motortrend.com/features/scenes/112_0306_spdtest/index1.html)
There's a few cars that were beating the 472SC's (1966) record. The lancer evo was not one of them (It is tested).
And... I did not say it would beat any car anywhere. There are many cars you can pay several hundred thousands for that would beat them. The ferrari F40 could do it... so could several GT quality "over the counter" cars. But not an EVO (your definitive proof).
Big blocks are it. They are the car anyone can afford that can stomp the **** out of anything. $30,000 could get you a monster capable of shaming anything on the roads. But you took a corner in an evo and wet yourself, now you refuse to hear anything out there could beat it (much less anything 35 years old).
MiniD
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SEE Funked! ;) I told you that you would love the big blocks.
I had to admitt. I was of the same "big blocks? no big deal ! " mentality until I bought my 69 Vette (427 cui, 400 hp). And I only bought that one because I got an excellent deal on it, and it is worth more money in the long run.
But once you drive one, you'll realize what we're talking about. And if you think that they can only go in straight lines, your fooling yourself.
The raw power.... is simply amazing.
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lol! big blocks. :D
maybe back when they were cutting egde tecknology. but mister pleese enter the 2000's. Big block motors are NOT what cuts it these days. it takes tecnology, not just throwing together a big unefficient engine. designers today actually have to think about the design. there's no way you can beet a mitsubishi spider with some old rusty tired elk kamino. just no way! lol! you old timers really crack me up. :D ;) :D
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How's the beemer running classy man?
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What does that link prove exactly? That big block cars are good in a straight line? That is a point I don't contest and indeed have never contested. Out of interest, what model of Evo did they use?
Now, show me the times of those cars around Donnington or Silverstone and I'd be more interested.
Big blocks are it. They are the car anyone can afford that can stomp the **** out of anything. $30,000 could get you a monster capable of shaming anything on the roads. But you took a corner in an evo and wet yourself, now you refuse to hear anything out there could beat it (much less anything 35 years old).
Now you're ranting MiniD. I'm sorry, but it's the truth - and resorting to infantile name calling just emphasizes that fact. On top of that you bring out the price argument. Again.
Although I am interested by your $30,000 remark - which car in particular? The Cobra SVT is $35,000 IIRC, which is about the price of an imported Evo.
I saw a slalom test where the Evo was beaten only by the Mosler Photon in that test - a $150,000 car.
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LOL dowding... you poor poor excuse for a boy.
I do like your argument though... all one really has to do is bring their car over where you can see it in order to prove to you how much faster it is than an evo. Its really that simple.
LOL!
Its all right dowding. Eventually, you'll grow up and find there are things out there that are actually better/worse than what you have personally experienced. At least I hope so... it would be rough having yet another drippy in the forums... a british version at that.
MiniD
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Again, the personal attacks. That's a real shame.
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The warmth, love, mutual respect and admiration expressed in these posts has just left me speechless.
Over the old "big blocks" vs the "twisty turners"?
Had 'em both. Both were fun. The big blocks were more fun and sounded waaaaaaaaaay better.
YMMV.
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Originally posted by Dowding
Again, the personal attacks. That's a real shame.
Hey, he got two birds with one stone that time!
Edit: rest of my post was out of content.
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Originally posted by Toad
The warmth, love, mutual respect and admiration expressed in these posts has just left me speechless.
Over the old "big blocks" vs the "twisty turners"?
Had 'em both. Both were fun. The big blocks were more fun and sounded waaaaaaaaaay better.
YMMV.
Agreed, but it depends on your usage of said vehicle. I wouldn't commute in the Big Block 80 miles a day, but the Twisty Turny works fine for that.
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dowding... you still haven't told me about the killer car that you have built/own.
I admit that an astronomer might know a lot about stars but I bet an astrounaut knows a little more about how stars look. At 25 I seriously doubt that you have driven that many fast cars. You have to build/own drive/live with em before you really can speak about em... Oh.... BTW, I have driven a real 427 cobra and many big block Vettes and Hemi powered cars as well as lotus's My buddy has a kit car 427 cobra that does most everyrthing better than the originals... lot of fun runs low 12 sec like my Healey.
classy man... the elky is a piece of junk but... rust free arizona car... never been hit .. frame is straitght as an arrow according to the laser allignment machine at my sons.
I like funked's car. If I had to have a dependable car to take on a trip and melt into the crowd... It would be great as would an M3.... still.... I put air conditioning in the elky and listening to that motor at night out in the desert.... mashing ther throttle on an uphill sweeper heading to Fort Bragg..
lazs
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Originally posted by Mini D
Everyone pretty much acknowledged the little white rice burner was a decent car, but its not something people should go thinking is a monster (I do believe funkypants may have had notions this was the case). The 60's big blocks were monsters.
No, I knew my car was not some kind of monster. There are many other WRX's which are much faster. Hell there are guys out there with 400 whp Honda Civics.
However, it is as quick or quicker in 0-60 and 1/4 mile than most of the 60's cars in stock form. These days they have upgraded engines and better tires, etc, and can probably toast me. But bone stock, with the original tires, even Verm's 427 Corvette would have trouble matching the times of a stock WRX or M3. Lazs' cars are far from stock though. Even if the Elkie wasn't faster than my car, it would be more entertaining because of the noise and ability to turn rubber into vapor at any legal speed.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Agreed, but it depends on your usage of said vehicle. I wouldn't commute in the Big Block 80 miles a day, but the Twisty Turny works fine for that.
Ah... practicality. The ultimate demise of the big block. People really don't need a car that its difficult not to smoke the tires with. They don't want a car that only gets 7mpg. Most people don't like the idea of being able to actually hear the engine... much less have it be loud.
Cars today are a nice comprimise of convenience and capability. Very practical... even for the high performance stuff. They are nearing some aspects of performance from the 60's, but there's some things that will just be out of reach while still maintaining the qualities that most consumers are looking for in cars.
The 60's didn't have that check valve in place. Car companies were upgrading their engines and cars faster than the consumers could keep up. More horsepower and smaller cars... It really did get out of hand. The most important thing is that these cars were being built for the masses... not for the elite. Yet... they'd beat anything the elite car companies could put out. It was the peak of automotive performance and accessability. I haven't seen anything recently that suggest that peak has been beaten since.
MiniD
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Yeah, practicality means one of two things, or both....
You're getting old....
You're married....
:( :(
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Here's a link to what I am talking about.
A Motor Trend list of favorite muscle cars with 0-60 and 1/4 mile times.
http://www.spiderweb2000.net/CountryRelaxin/1_10.html
For reference Motor Trend got 5.6 and 14.2 for the WRX.
Motor Trend times for Rip's car are 5.8 and 14.4.
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Originally posted by funkedup
Here's a link to what I am talking about.
A Motor Trend list of favorite muscle cars with 0-60 and 1/4 mile times.
http://www.spiderweb2000.net/CountryRelaxin/1_10.html
For reference Motor Trend got 5.6 and 14.2 for the WRX.
Motor Trend times for Rip's car are 5.8 and 14.4.
Ahhh, the old Gullwing Mercedes...those are very rare. Cool link *thanks Funked.
(* for Nash's view)
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Thanks for the link FunkedUp... I was looking for something like that. I'm amazed there isn't a better database for original 1/4 mile times.
The main thing to notice... all the light weight big blocks were pretty much below 14 seconds. Camaro, Buick G/S, Olds Cutlas (hearst and 442). Those were times ran back then. On the older tires. Today, they'd be faster with a new set of rubber.
Those were great cars, but they weren't the most remarkable of the era. For instance... I've seen quite a few references to 65 Cobras doing 0-60 in the mid 3 second range (they have 5.6 for the 66).
It really is simple: Exotics:High end Porsche/Corvette(Not really exotics):Big Blocks:The rest
By high end I'm talking the turbos and the ZR-1 types.
Also... the Cobras, Camaros, Mustangs, Corvettes and a few others were very impressive on the tracks. Once again... with older rubber. People just don't believe this is the case... but then this thread has gone nearly 100 posts now.. hasn't it?
MiniD
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Originally posted by Furball
they all suck compared to this : -
(http://www.plmini.co.uk/pictures/large/cooper-t.jpg)
:D
Lol!..Can u imagine Mr Bean in a Cooper?:D
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I just wanted to jump into all this male posturing :)
And FWIW...even that damn lil Euro-car would suck the pin stripe off my damn POS Saturn *Coupe*
:p
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Originally posted by Mini D
The main thing to notice... all the light weight big blocks were pretty much below 14 seconds. Camaro, Buick G/S, Olds Cutlas (hearst and 442). Those were times ran back then. On the older tires. Today, they'd be faster with a new set of rubber.
Another thing to notice is that a lot of them were tested with slicks. I think Detroit overstated hp figures a lot of times.
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The numbers for the magazines were usually on factory tires LePaul.
MiniD
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When they ran em on slicks they got into the 12's and even 11's. Street tires today are amazing compared to tires in those days...
I recall being in a GTO in the late 60's and the little F70 tires lit up going 70 mph on the freeway.
still waiting to hear about dowdings driving /building/owning experiance. I hope it isn't restricted to adding oil to his austin princess and a few hours at the library... oh... and the alleged evo ride of course.
lazs
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Keep reading, it clearly says on that link that some of them ran slicks. It's common knowledge that a lot of the cars Detroit sent to the magazines back then were not the same as the ones coming off the production lines.
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You haven't driven a real car Lazs until you've been behind the wheel of an MG Midget.
:D
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oh... the "movie".... thinking about dowding reminded me of it... Called "beat" was suppossed to be about the beat generation and a murder... guess it was but... I think it was mostly about homosexuals... probly some cult homo movie. Every time I go into blockbuster from now on they will probly suggest other homo titles for me.... well... now I know what it is like to walk a block in downdings pumps.
lazs
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Originally posted by funkedup
Keep reading, it clearly says on that link that some of them ran slicks. It's common knowledge that a lot of the cars Detroit sent to the magazines back then were not the same as the ones coming off the production lines.
Didn't see slicks mentioned for many cars... except the vette that ran a 10.5 1/4 mile (when was that again?)
Most of those tests were done with the car at hand. Its how car magazines sold their copies. They seemed decent at citing when factory numbers were provided and slicks were used.
MiniD
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LOL Laz.... it really sounds like I missed out, or should I say I got dowded by not going?
:D
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Well you didn't miss anything with that movie. It made me feel... dirty. I had to take 3 showers just to get the gay off me.
Of course we DID watch it all the way through. Not sure what that says. :
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loin... yu mean "spridget"... drove several.. even drove one with a small block in it and another with a volvo 4 banger (dual carb 120hp).
yep funked... the tests allways seemed weird to us guys that were going to the drags a couple of nights a week. We could get bone stock big blocks into the mid thirteens but it depended on the driver.. mostly you had to keep the tires from going up in smoke in 2nd and 3rd. You could pick up an honest 40-60 hp in those days just with hedders.... slicks would put all the big blocks in the 12's
mid 13's were the norm for any brand big block with a good driver and no mods ... mid 14's for mediocre drivers.
lazs
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Mini
From what I heard, Pontiac went out of their way to make sure the cars tested in magazines where NOT from the showroom, they would take them, install thinner head gaskets, adjustable rockers, more aggressive timing and a few other things, like a 421 or 428 in place of the 389, or 400( block looks exactly the same.)
Royal Pontiac sold a Kit to do all the above to your own car.
There was a big stink at Pontiac when one dealer let a non prepped car get tested.
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And what engine did they substitute for the 455 and 454?
What they did with the small blocks is of no concern to me. Thinned gaskets? Agressive timing? LOL OK...
MiniD
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Originally posted by lazs2
loin... yu mean "spridget"... drove several.. even drove one with a small block in it and another with a volvo 4 banger (dual carb 120hp).
lazs
It was a "Midget"...Where did u get spridget from?..Mine had a (i think) 1275 Austin Mini engine...It was fun especialy in the winter driving around with 5 inches ground clearance in snow storms.:)
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MG Midget = Austin Healey Sprite with different headlights and badges.
Hence "Spridget"
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Originally posted by classy man
lol! big blocks. :D
maybe back when they were cutting egde tecknology. but mister pleese enter the 2000's. Big block motors are NOT what cuts it these days. it takes tecnology, not just throwing together a big unefficient engine. designers today actually have to think about the design. there's no way you can beet a mitsubishi spider with some old rusty tired elk kamino. just no way! lol! you old timers really crack me up. :D ;) :D
Ok, gonna have to step in on this one too. You, sir, have seen The Swift and the Slightly Miffed a few too many times. Allow me to run some numbers for you because the comparison between a late 60's muscle car and a Mitsubishi Eclipse Spyder is almost laughable.
2003 Mistubishi Eclipse Spyder
Front engine/FWD
3.0L V6
5spd Manual/4spd Automatic
200 HP @ 5500RPM
205 ft/lbs @ 4000RPM
0-60 MPH 7.2 Sec
1/4 mi 15.7 Sec @ 89 MPH
3241 lbs curb weight
-and for ****s and giggles, lets compare it to a 67 L71:
1967 Chevrolet Corvette 427 L71
Front eng/RWD
427ci V8
4spd Manual/3 spd Automatic
435 HP @ 5800 RPM
460 lt/lbs @ 4000 RPM
0-60 MPH 5.4 Sec
1/4 mi 13.5 Sec @ 111 MPH
3130 lbs curb weight
Sure, the Eclipse is a screamer when you compare it to a Civic EX, but once real cars are thrown into the equation, reality strikes. A 'big unefficient engine' hits particularly hard.
Dont lose sleep over it though, Vin Deisel (sp?) would be proud of you.
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For pontiacs there is no Big block or small block, its all one block with different bore/strokes.
For the 455s, you can make a big difference with a cam and higher compression, but by the time GM was putting engines over 400 cubes in mid size cars the muscle car erra was all but over. 1970 was the first year you could get a 454, or 455 in a GM A-body(chevelle, 442, GTO, GS)
the mods I listed, could ad up to 50 horspower to a Pontiac, a big jump on a "stock" car.
Chevy did put a Big block in the chevelle, but it was 396 cubes, and dint put out much more horsepower then the other GM motors. Hell Every owner of an original 396 I have talked had one thing in common, lol a thrown rod, while in waranty! lol.
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And now the jibes about sexuality. When all else fails... but then you don't strike as a particularly creative guy lazs. Unsurprisingly, you didn't refer to any part of my last post but the lack of a gun control reference is refreshing at least.
Like I said, I drive a crappy A2B car - a Fiat to be specific - it gets me around and that's all I bought it for. One day I'll have something better but right now it ain't a priority. I've got plenty of time; in twenty years I'll have something decent. In twenty years you'll most likely be dead. I guess you'll have to take my word for it.
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In 20 years your opinion might be worth something.
lazs
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Saur... you need to visit the boards at http://www.bimmerfest.com and do a search for classy man to get some insight as to why you should never take a word he says seriously.
Dowding,
Any questions as to your sexuality were answered in April.
As for the car you drive... it's pretty irrelevant. I think the point Lazs was trying to make is what have you done with cars to gain such insight into them? What experience do you have with them? What experience do you have with big blocks?
Sorry, but "I once rode in a friends evo" isn't going to cut it in the grand world of car talk.
MiniD
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Sorry to say Dowding,but "they" are trying to fed you up and "drive" you out of AH BBS like other perceived "Liberals".
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ROFL
in 28 hours, this thread has 111 (now 112) replies?
u guys sure have fun over here! :)
Though at least its a departure from the typical OT political drivel. :)
Yeah, I read the whole thread, (VERY slow day at work today), and I agree with nopoop - you aren't a real man until you've strapped on a K-Kar... in my case, a cream and plastic wood K-Kar wagon. *sigh* How I miss that car some days.... :)
BB <- who sometimes wishes he had the time, talent, money to buy/build a big block, or at least rent one :D
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Speaking of fast cars, when's the Pontiac GTO supposed to come out and what's the early opinion on it? Real deal or just a pretender?
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If a real GTO means big block with roll up windows and a radio you can't hear (never mind airconditioning) then the new one will be a pretender... If performance is the criteria then it will be a better GTO than the original in allmost every way. Course... the old one will still turn heads the easiest and put a smile on your face more often.
lazs
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Go
I think 2004 will be the first year.
I am mixed, it will be a six speed, 300 HP V8 car RWD, but it is going to be leathered up and heavy, not really a muscle car.
I wish they would sell a stripper version. Then it would be cool...
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Originally posted by lazs2
If a real GTO means big block with roll up windows and a radio you can't hear (never mind airconditioning) then the new one will be a pretender... If performance is the criteria then it will be a better GTO than the original in allmost every way. Course... the old one will still turn heads the easiest and put a smile on your face more often.
lazs
You have to keep your market in mind these days, you just can't sell "speciality" fun cars like Detroit did in the 60's when they were the big boys on the block. Today, you have to cross breed it with convenience, gas milege standards, and find a market niche so that it sells well enough to pay for the tooling/assembly line. Fords way of making up for this was the SVT assembly line (low overhead)
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Fords way of making up for this was the SVT assembly line (low overhead)
When did Ampeg buy out Ford?
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Gtora2, I'm a vette guy, but didn't GM put the 427 in anything other than the Vette?
Nice website on old cars! The 1969 L71 Corvette..... WOW :D Basically the same car as mine, but the engine had an aluminum block. Only 2 were made, and its theoretically worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. But since 1 of those 2 cars sits in the Corvete Museum, I don't think its likely that the "one" car will be on the open market anytime soon.
Probably the closest to my car in performance on that website is the 1967 Vette that you guys saw. And even thats going to be slightly more healthy than my car. Its the same tri-powered engine as mine (and the cars are very similar mechanically except for body work which changed between 67 and 68) but it has mechanical lifters, where as mine as the more mild but easier to maintain hydraulic lifters.
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Vermillion
Other then some COPO special cars, like the 1969 ZL1 Camaro, that came with an aluminum 427(69 made, one sold for over 250grand like 10 or 15 years ago), I think the Vette was the only Factory 427 car.
The 66 Vette was also the reason why Pontiac stopped offering tri-power. GM said multi carbs was now a Vette only feature. lol.
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I think you may be wrong.
I bet if they made one to be fast, and stripped it upped the HP a bit it would sell damn well, if it wasn't hugely exspensive.
I will use 2 cars as an example. The WRX sti, it sells well, and it is not a luxury car.
And the Jeep Rubicon, they basically took everything everyone said they wanted and added it to a jeep wrangler and sold it for less the Sahara, and Dealers cant keep them in stock...but it isn't that great of a street car
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In 20 years your opinion might be worth something.
And in 20 years, so might yours.
As for the car you drive... it's pretty irrelevant. I think the point Lazs was trying to make is what have you done with cars to gain such insight into them? What experience do you have with them? What experience do you have with big blocks?
That sword cuts both ways - what experience of AWD Jap supercars do you have? How much experience of turbo driven engines do you have?
Sorry, but "I once rode in a friends evo" isn't going to cut it in the grand world of car talk.
Don't be so bloody melodramatic. You drive a BMW Mini for god's sake.
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The 66 Vette was also the reason why Pontiac stopped offering tri-power. GM said multi carbs was now a Vette only feature
heheh I will admitt that the 3 carbs are a real pain in the bellybutton to get rebuilt and tuned correctly. We did it just last year with the help of some friends of my Dad. If it was just strictly a performance issue, I'd have pulled them off, and put a big Holley on there with a new manifold. BUT my car is mostly original, with most of the original parts set aside for what is not on the car. So its worth a lot more with the Tri-power. Plus its impressive just due to its rarity.
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I wanted to get a tripower setup for my goat, found a guy with good references who sells them complete. lol 6 months lead time and 1300$ lol I think I will stick with the carb I have!
Nothing beats them for the AWE factor when you pop the hood though.
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Wish I had a picture of under the hood of my old 69 Road Runner GTo. Heck,..wish that dang tree would have not stepped in my way, or I would still own it.
A 6pack setup, Edelbrock high rise, cast aluminum valve covers, nice set of black Hooker headers, large Mallory HD ignition system, silicone jacketed plug wires, flex-fan,..and more internal stuff (spaghetti Crane cam from a 440, forged 11.0:1 aluminum TRW pistons, shot-peened rods, forged crank, dry sump oil system, full-grooved mains and inserts...).
You could have eaten off of any surface under my hood.
Everytime I raised the hood of that car, the oohs and ahhs would come pouring. That was one fun car.
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Scuzzy
I wish I where rich, so many cool cars, so little money.
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Tell me about it GTo. If money were no object, I would easily have 30 or so cars.
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Originally posted by SirLoin
Sorry to say Dowding,but "they" are trying to fed you up and "drive" you out of AH BBS like other perceived "Liberals".
Sirloin is paranoid:)
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Originally posted by Dowding
That sword cuts both ways - what experience of AWD Jap supercars do you have? How much experience of turbo driven engines do you have?
AWD Japanesse? I've never owned one. Have you? I did own 2 Audi Quattros (one 4000S, one 100CS)... but those weren't particularly peppy. I've also owned a 300ZX (91) that was a particularly nice car... one of my favorites.
Of course, I have ridden in a few scoobies (WRX)... since the parking lot is littered with them. I do think the Audi Coupe from the early 90's was a better all around car. That is from having ridden in both (though I've never driven a scoobie).
I also have somewhat of a hot-rod connection due to the side of the family that runs http://www.dutchmanms.com (Dutchman MotorSports). Though, that's mostly very late model fords with big blocks and tri-5 chevys. I do have a friend at work that is very into the late 70's Dodge "Little Red Express" scene, as well as the 50's-60's chevy scene... and I do alot of car stuff with him.
Of course, we also have the BMW contingent at work too (about 1/4 of the cars at work are BMWs these days)... so I get a good look at a variety of vehicles. Its pretty much the difference dowding.... I'm not talking **** about a bunch of cars I know nothing about. You are... cause you got a ride in one.
It's been about 30 years since the big blocks ruled. These days, cars are still trying to live up to their performance. Those cars are worth their weight in gold these days for a very specific reason... they were awesome. Let's continue this discussion in 30 years when you're old enough to get it. We can call the thread "anyone remember a car called the EVO?"
MiniD
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Ya know....some have missed the point here....there is no substitute for horsepower....you can get close, but nothing like it.
My cherry popped in a 69 GTX...440...straight linkage racing tranny....a whole bunch of other stuff that I can't remember any longer....I was 14 yrs old.
I had a 67 GTO convertible restored....I lost my arse on that car, but I had over 400 horses under the hood....30mph 2nd gear insanity.
It's all about horsepower....the sound, the smell, the feel of it has no equal.
Dowding I'm sure you have some stories, but until you've had your cherry popped, you won't be taken very seriously by any led sled ownin, sledgehammer totin, muscle car lovin, red blooded American born male....especially one born and raised thru the 50's and 60's.
It's nothin personal....just try and understand it the best ya can:)
BTW...I've owned 911's, Saabs and a Beemer....all nice cars, but just not the same experience as ridin pure horsepower:)
Now I drive a big SUV and a Conversion Van....that's what a wifey, four kids, two cats and a dog tend to do to the old days....it's all good mind you....just different:)
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I do think the Audi Coupe from the early 90's was a better all around car.
MinD, with all due respect, that statement indicates a serious deficiency in your automotive knowledge.
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Rude is right.
The muscle car era was about 'muscle'. There was no finesse. It was all brute force. You can poke and joke about it all day long, but there was something that would just raise the hair on your neck when one of those monsters cut loose.
You just had to be there is really appreciate it. It was an era that has come and gone and will never be again. Those that grew up in that time carry something with us that no one will ever be able to experience again.
It is one of the things we Americans have as our own.
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Sigh. Now you can't even be consistent within your own posts. Basically, I'm talking bollocks because I'm limited the cars I've ridden in, but you're an all knowing genius because of the cars you have ridden in.
Okaaaay.
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Also about Evo's and STi's...
Both of those cars can run low 13's right off the showroom floor. Not a whole lot of the classics on that Motor Trend link could do that.
Car like Lazs has are a different matter, but they represent something custom built with a level of technology that wasn't available back in the day.
If you want to do apples to apples you'd need a tuner version of an STi or Evo. Something like a Group N or Open class rally car. Which would eat Lazs' car for breakfast and come back for seconds. But it wouldn't sound nearly as cool or make nearly as much tire smoke, which counts for a lot in my book.
And oh yeah, that rally spec car would set you back about 4 or 5 times what Lazs spent.
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Originally posted by funkedup
MinD, with all due respect, that statement indicates a serious deficiency in your automotive knowledge.
ummm... Take a peak (http://rsmodels.net/index.php?mode=cars&car_id=8). The scoobie is a little quicker, but I liked every other aspect of the coupe better.
Have you ever ridden in one of these from 93-96? I've only seen one before and they were somewhat rare in the states.
MiniD
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Disregard my earlier statement, I was thinking of a different car. Was thinking of the previous generation which had a lot of VW Rabbit parts in it. I don't care much for Audis in general. Basically VW's with different badging and the price jacked up a few thousand. That one in your link looks pretty cool though.
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Actually Rude, I don't have anything against muscle cars. I do like the sound they make - who wouldn't - and one set of designs in particular have never been bettered; the original Mustang family. It's the only American car I'd care to own, apart from maybe a Pontiac Firebird from 'Smokey and the Bandit'. But I grew up on those films.
But alongside it I'd have a Nissan Skyline and a TVR Tuscan, and maybe an Evo VII. I'd have to have something to negociate the hedgerow and ditch infested narrow roads around here. ;)
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Originally posted by Dowding
Sigh. Now you can't even be consistent within your own posts. Basically, I'm talking bollocks because I'm limited the cars I've ridden in, but you're an all knowing genius because of the cars you have ridden in.
Okaaaay.
You're limited by the exposure to a variety of cars dowdless. It shows to a great extent. Well... to everyone but you that is.
When you say "I've ridden in a car that did..." I just think... "so have I". When you say "other cars couldn't possibly compete", I know just how wrong you are.
Remember dowding... you came into a thread about big blocks talking smak about your evo experience... it wasn't the other way around.
MiniD
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BTW This is teh gayest thread evar.
Lazs and Poopie and I got to have fun with lots of horsepower. The rest of you are just jock sniffers. :)
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I've got a '66 Mustang Convertible w/the 289 V8 and pony seats. It's not alot of HP, but its fun.
My Father and I restored a '55 Chevy Belair Convertible that he had owned new in '55. Again, not alot of HP, but the Glasspacks made it sound NICE!
Growing up we had a '66 Galaxy. I can't recall the size of the motor, but it definately had alot of guts and my dad would put all the horses to work. My mom put it around a telephone pole and totalled it. Not sure what the name was for soccer moms in the '60's..hehe. Anyway, I think he came close to shedding tears at the sight of the totalled car.
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
I think you may be wrong.
I bet if they made one to be fast, and stripped it upped the HP a bit it would sell damn well, if it wasn't hugely exspensive.
I will use 2 cars as an example. The WRX sti, it sells well, and it is not a luxury car.
And the Jeep Rubicon, they basically took everything everyone said they wanted and added it to a jeep wrangler and sold it for less the Sahara, and Dealers cant keep them in stock...but it isn't that great of a street car
Don't forget the Dodge SRT-4. A lot of people don't realize just how quick those things are. They don't launch welll because they have FWD and an open diff, which hurts their magazine times. But in terms of real world speed they are very very quick. I would never race one of them unless it was from a stop. And they MSRP for like $20,000.
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You're limited by the exposure to a variety of cars dowdless.
Wait... yes... I think I got it... yes... you changed my handle to an excrutiatingly unfunny and inane parody! Brilliant!
When you say "other cars couldn't possibly compete",
Where did I say that? You're the one saying 60s muscle cars could beat most Jap/Euro cars on any track.
Remember dowding... you came into a thread about big blocks talking smak about your evo experience...
No... you're making it up. Again. I didn't mention my experience until someone questioned it. Before that we were talking about performance in different conditions, and the relative merits of the two types of car. And very early on I said this:
"Both big engined cars and your turbo cars have their relative merits. Depends on what gets your goat, I suppose."
It still stands.
Now, I'm tired of this ridiculous 'discussion'. If it matters so much to you, you've won... and your prize is 'TheWobble award for Outstanding Juvenilitiy'... a scale model of a pickup driven by a shirtless guy with a bandaged girl in the passenger seat. Both are armed.
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Rip I think MiniD has a new roommate.
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LOL Dowding. I'm not going to try to argue with the ignorance of youth anymore. You win.
Your ride in an evo qualifies you to compare it with any 60's big block you haven't seen... and really know nothing about. My mistake. Your presence in this thread was not intended as a slight to the topic from the very start... once again... my mistake. Your continuation on a theme is not really the same as you actually saying it... once again... my mistake.
You are right, selecting the highest performing japanese car in an atempt to establish that the newer cars perform better than the 60's era cars is completely valid. In no way should it be put up against the highest performing 60's era cars, because that just wouldn't be fair.
I bow to your complete lack of experience and knowledge.
MiniD
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Stringer, that Galaxy probably had a 352 in it. However,...that happened to be the year model of one of Ford's quiet surprises. That year, they dumped a 427 in a handfull of those cars.
They were sleepers. Same motor from the AC, but with more weight to transfer,..they could hole-shot. Scary is the only word I can think of.
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Skuz
I gota disagree a tad on your muscle car thing, you did not have to live through it to understand or be a part of it. I have lived and breathed muscle cars since I was about 10, but I was born in 74, lol. I think I can understand the draw they have, and what makes them something unique to the U.S. and awesome.
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Originally posted by funkedup
BTW This is teh gayest thread evar.
Lazs and Poopie and I got to have fun with lots of horsepower. The rest of you are just jock sniffers. :)
ROTFLOL! (I was doing flat 13's when you were still getting yer diapers changed Boy'a!) :D
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Originally posted by Skuzzy
Stringer, that Galaxy probably had a 352 in it. However,...that happened to be the year model of one of Ford's quiet surprises. That year, they dumped a 427 in a handfull of those cars.
They were sleepers. Same motor from the AC, but with more weight to transfer,..they could hole-shot. Scary is the only word I can think of.
Real 427 or the 428?
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Ahhh,..well GTo, I can be wrong. I have a fairly unique perspective on the muscle car era.
Dad owned a parts store and was friends with Dan Gartlits. Dan used to park his rail on the corner of the parts store when he came to town. Used to get to sit in it.
Of course, every frekin hot rodder in Corpus Christi and the surrounding area would come by and practically camp around the store.
We had an A&W drive in about 100 yards from the store, and of course, come Friday and Saturday nights,..they would all migrate from the store to the drive in.
So for a week, every so often, the entire block would be covered with every kind of hot rod you could imagine.
Used to have 100's of pictures of that time frame. They got destroyed during a hurricane, but the memories. It was something to behold.
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Originally posted by funkedup
Real 427 or the 428?
Real 427. Same motor from the AC Cobra. The 428 did not come out until late 68.
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Originally posted by funkedup
Disregard my earlier statement, I was thinking of a different car. Was thinking of the previous generation which had a lot of VW Rabbit parts in it. I don't care much for Audis in general. Basically VW's with different badging and the price jacked up a few thousand. That one in your link looks pretty cool though.
Ah... there it is then. The what we know vs what we think we know.
I don't know everything about cars... there's plenty I don't know. I do know enough to see right through some of the statements being made. The evo is a good car, but its not as good as the Audi Sport from the mid 80's... the one that pretty much defined the modern AWD car.
And the Scoobie is not all that different than the Mitsubishi Conquest TSi or eagle... or whatever it turned into. They all come and go and are soon forgotten. They have the big boost over stressed engine syndrome and end up on a lot somehwere selling for $500 next to 10 year old bmws.
Then there are the cars on which legends are based. The Mid-60's muscle is one. The tri 5 chevy's are another as well as the 30's fords. The ferrari roadsters and the small british coupes would fit in there. The Audi Quattro Sport and the Porsche Grouppe B were defining cars too. As was the Corvette ZR-1 and the McClaren. All of these cars had relevance and were awe inspiring. The only Japanese car I can think of that might even remotely fit into this category would be the 240Z... but that's a stretch.
Coming up with a car that gives the 60's muscle a run for it's money is not an achievement... not when it comes close to so many mid 60's muscle cars. To come into a thread about mid 60's muscle and say otherwise is to make yourself look like Dowding... young and inexperienced.
MiniD
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I think its time for some shameless pic posting. Behold: The Fast, and The Furious (repectively)
(http://www.cyrusnet.com/~notop442/images/1972_Corvette-Stingray-Bryar-Blue.jpg)
(http://www.cyrusnet.com/~notop442/images/1970Judge.jpg)
(http://www.justmods.com/imagescomp/acura/integra/integra31.jpg)
(http://www.r-car.com/refit/honda/Civic/2000%20Civic%20Si_4.jpg)
This last guy spent so much money on his body kit and stickers that he didnt have enough left over to do suspension work, apprently.
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Originally posted by Mini D
The evo is a good car, but its not as good as the Audi Sport from the mid 80's... the one that pretty much defined the modern AWD car.
Actually the Evo and STi are very similar to the Audi Sport Quattros. Like the Quattros they are variants of normal road cars designed for FIA world rally homologation. They are a little heavier but they also benefit from modern braking and AWD systems which are more sophisticated than what even the racing version of the Quattro had. Unlike the Quattro they are affordable by people who aren't millionaires. Also these are not newly designed cars or short term models. They have both been sold for 10 years now and are going strong all over the world.
PS to be clear we are talking about the Audi Sport Quattro here, not the pedestrian Quattro coupe that was sold in the US from 1980 to 1987 or so.
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Saurdaukar
That vette is nice...
Man I hate that color on the Goat. I swear to sweet god Pontiac must have gotten the deal of the century on the color, so many goats ruined by it...
:D
What the hell where those other things...
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Saur, the funny thing is that the two Jap cars you pictured run low 15's from the factory and 14's with a few bucks. In stock form the GTO you pictured was a mid-14 second car. The Jap cars handle and brake so much better it's not even funny. Now the Corvette could be a lot faster if it's the right one, but plenty of them were built that couldn't break 14 seconds. They definitely have more style than the ****ty ricers you pictured though. :)
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Give me the same few bucks and that stock 70 goat, and it will be in the low 13s.
Well depending on what few bucks means lol.
Not to be nitpicky but the info on the 69 GTO judge was wrong, in 69 it came with a Ram 3 400 standard and like 360HP and a Ram Air 4 with 366 as an option. There was no 455 that year.
the other cars looked right but who knows what else they got wrong?
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Perhaps - but why?
Look at the friggen tires on the 60's cars - theyre pizza cutters. How are you supposed to put 300+ ft/lbs to the ground with 6 inch tires?
I dunno what it takes to get a Civic into the 14's, but I do know it would take more than a cone filter and exhaust....
The tuning capabilities with the older cars are very extensive - that same 'few bucks' that someone wastes on a Civic are well spent on a GTO - Im sure Lazs could speak far more intelligently on this than I could.
Id be more interested in trap speeds - what would a 14 second Civic trap at? 90 MPH? And the GTO? Considerably more I'd bet.
Appels and oranges though. Do you want the ground to shake when you drive by or do you want an annoying buzzing in your ear all day? :D
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
Give me the same few bucks and that stock 70 goat, and it will be in the low 13s.
Well depending on what few bucks means lol.
Of course. What I mean is Saur should have picked crappier cars to make fun of because the ones he pictured are reasonably quick. If the Goat or Vette owner has crappy tires or hasn't touched his motor or has an automatic or is a crappy driver, he could get an unpleasant surprise. :)
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LOL
One was an acura what was the other?
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
LOL
One was an acura what was the other?
It's 99-00 Civic Si. I know because I used to drive one. :)
It would cruise at 120 or you could get 35 mpg if you were so inclined. Very nice suspension, but the brakes were lousy and it didn't have enough head room for me. Also it really needed an LSD.
Mine didn't have all the retarded crap stuck on it of course.
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version with Vtech?
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at least show some quick jap cars instead of carp civics :D
(http://www.fantasycars.com/derek/cars/images/nissan/gtr_2.jpg)
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PS If a Civic Si owner wanted to be a drag racing stud he would get a Vortech blower for about $4k and an LSD for about $1k. Cars with that setup run high 12's low 13's. But if you spent $5k on the Goat motor you would probably get a lot more bang for the buck. And it wouldn't be nearly as likely to hand grenade as the Honda.
Anyways most of the guys with the racing stripes and huge wings would never do that, because it would involve wrenches and icky oil and grease. They are much more comfortable with stickers and Bondo and fiberglass.
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
version with Vtech?
Yes the stock rating was 160 hp at 8000 rpm. Redline was 8200. 1.6 liter. They had really short gears which was why the 1/4 times were fairly good. Top speed was redline limited, about 140. If you could get a Mini with that motor I probably wouldn't have a Subaru. :)
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Funked
I heard they attracted car theives like **** does flies as well! lol
Hell for 5 grand I would barely touch the motor, and go with a richmond gear six speed, just like the one I sold Laz.
Then it would be a toss up, heads from edelbroch, or new front suspension to make it handle better.
A new set of tires would be a must.
If it was a Ram Air 4 Goat, then the heads are already pretty good, lol.
You can do so much to a GM A-body... its just money. I need to be rich!!!
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That 6 speed is slicker than owl ****. His clutch is kinda heavy though. :)
Yes the Si's are popular with thieves and teenagers. They were limited production, each dealer only got a few. And then when they went to the new body style they canceled the Si. I bought mine for $16 something in 1999 and sold it for $15k even in 2002, to a kid who just got his license.
They have an Si on the new body style, but it is a total turd. Looks like a minivan.
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The Japanese cars just don't do anything for me in the looks department, but it's cool to see one that is fast and not just a tacky plastic monster.
STI was the first Japanese car I have driven that gave me the "I want's"
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Yeah I'm not a "looks" kinda guy. I just like to drive them. :)
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Loins MG Midget's big brother
(http://www.allsportauto.com/photoautre/mg/x_power/2003_mg_xpower_sv_04_sb.jpg)
There are initially two versions planned - the "ordinary" MG X-POWER SV which weighs in with 326bhp from a quad cam V8 engine creating a 0-60mph speed of 5 seconds and a top speed of 170mph. This will be the basic version of the car starting at around £65,000.
However the more exciting version is the MG X-POWER SV CLUB SPORT. This beast weighs in at 410bhp from a 5 litre V8 engine and with a 0-60mph of 4.4seconds and with it's top speed limited to a mere 195mph. However there are more variations planned - the car on show at Birmingham was powered by a Sean Hyland tuned 5 litre quad cam V8 producing some 465bhp with a 0-60mph of 4.2 seconds and a top speed in excess of 200mph. Even more extreme factory options will be made available including engines with nitrous oxide injection rumoured to be approaching the 1000bhp mark !!. Not the sort of vehicle to collect granny and do the shopping in.
Stick that up yer big bore pipe and smoke it!!! :D ;) :D
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Had a 2001 Acura GSR.... here's a pic of it:
(http://www.dbstaines.com/images/MD AC1.jpg)
(http://www.dbstaines.com/images/MD AC2.jpg)
(http://www.dbstaines.com/images/MD AC3.jpg)
(http://www.dbstaines.com/images/MD AC4.jpg)
It was a very quick car over 4k (170hp). Its major downer was it handled like crap. It didn't have traction control and the torque steer was horrendous. Only car I ever had that handled worse was a 91 pontiac Grand Prix with a 3.4 liter (210hp). It was also very twitchy in corners with unpredictable behavior (the integra). Best day of my car owning life was the day that car was stolen... or more to the point... the insurance gave me the check for it.
And funkypants... there is a kit to get 200hp out of the Mini Coper S... costs about 3k over the cost of the car. You'd be into it for about $25k. Still waiting for someone to turn their attention toward the standard.
MiniD
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Yeah I saw that kit, not much bang for the buck.
I'd be more interested in an Integra Type R engine swap. :)
Sad to see your 'teg like that. Civic Si handling was pretty similar to the GS-R's I drove. Excellent handling unless you were using the throttle, then lots of wheelspin. Si was set up a bit more neutral than the GS-R though, so you could hang the tail out if you dropped the throttle during a turn.
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errr..... minid.... your car seems to have a few parts missing!
not to mention steering wheel on wrong side and a flat tire! :D
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Originally posted by funkedup
Top speed was redline limited, about 140. If you could get a Mini with that motor I probably wouldn't have a Subaru. :)
Out of curiousity, why would you need 140? any track you'd take it to with some sort of car club would probably not permit 140 in the straight away...the max one can get at the Seattle International raceway track is about 120 before you need to brake for the corner. Do you consistently cruise above 120 on the freeway or would it simply be a "braggin' rights" issue to have a car that goes that fast?
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skuzzy is correct.. my cousin had a 66 ford gallaxie with a 425hp dual four side oiler 427 and four speed factory fiberglass hood... probly save 200 lbs on that boat.
guys... we are getting off base here.. notice the "original" 1/4 mile times in the articles? those on f70 polyglass tires and those on slicks? the slicks were about as sticky back then as your standard wall mart radial with the pressure adjusted to 20lbs. Any of those old muscle cars will knock on the 12's with good modern tires.. better intakes, cams and exhaust make it simple to knock onb the 11's And... that is with modern gas and low compression.. the old muscle cars ran 11 to 1 or more.
As for "turner" versions kicking the poor ol elkies butt... maybe but... I could get the elky into the 10's with a few bucks and still be about 1/3 or less of the cost of the tuner. Many cirrent street muscle cars will run in the low 10's high nines.
Brakes, suspension gearboxes are all better now but... new cars are well sorted out. It's hard to compete and not have a car that is full of comprimise... rough ride, noise... no fuel economy but... We can compete... we can compete straight line or around corners or stopping... a baer braked chevelle will stop 0-6- in 100 feet... 3700 lb chevelles will pull allmost 1 g around corners with the right parts.
but why bother? you bleed and get towed and pour money in before you get it sorted out.... even then... you have something that is at best a comprimise... not really all that practical. You could buy things right off the showroom floor that work allmost as well. Maybe even better if you are willing to spend 200,000 bucks or more. I guess... Buy it or build it is the choice.
lazs
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Oh funked... speaking of "tuners" how do you think the healey would do if I took out the nostalgia 331 and 4 speed and dumped a 454 injected and supercharged small block (yes, I said small block) with a six speed and 4 wheel disc brakes? The car would still weigh 2200 lbs but be a good honest and dependable 700-1000 hp. it would cost me about 20 grand but I bet I could keep up with the subarus and evos.
lazs
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Like I said before, they could only beat you by spending at least 3-5 times whatever you spend. A Subie or Evo can get down to about 12.0 for $6k or so. To go beyond that gets ridiculously expensive, because the stock engine internals and transmission will not hold up.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Out of curiousity, why would you need 140? any track you'd take it to with some sort of car club would probably not permit 140 in the straight away...the max one can get at the Seattle International raceway track is about 120 before you need to brake for the corner. Do you consistently cruise above 120 on the freeway or would it simply be a "braggin' rights" issue to have a car that goes that fast?
I was just describing the gearing to GTO. The car was geared really short, which is a lot of the reason it could run better 1/4 mile times than most cars with 97 cubes. Most cars are geared so that your speed is limited by drag before you run out of revs.
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yep funked... exactly... gearing is mostly for mileage... the 5.0 mustangs had 2.75 rears in em... my highway patrol mustang had 3.55 gears.. the 3.55 gear was better suited for top speed. It would actually do 140 or better while the 2.75 cars just didn't have the grunt to pull those gears. which brings us back too....
muscle cars of the 60's 70's had to have relatively tall gears to be the least bit practical... there were no overdrives so... to cruise at anything less than 4 grand on the freeway you needed 3.50 gears... compound those gears with f70 tires and 500 foot lbs of torque and you had real traction problems to go along with the noise and crappy fuel economy...
enter the overdrive tranny... be it 460L auto or tremac 5/6 speed or (my favorite) richmound gear 6 speed.... The muscle car with these trannies is something completely different.... now you will be (in effect) doing the quarter and 0-60 runs with a 4.86 rear and cruising the freeway with 2.75 gears... same car that did 14.5 quarter miles with a top speed around 130 back in the day..... will now do 12 sec quarters and top out around 160-170 or more.
Not to take away from modern technolodgy but.... most of the advances in quickness and handling and top speed are related to tires and transmissions and.... the old standby.... turbo/supercharging. All those things transfer over quite easily to the old musclecars even fuel injection and computer controls. do it in the driveway under a shade tree.
lazs
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Rip
Your 140MPH argument can be taken in a bad direction, why does anyone need a car that goes faster then 65 or 70, thats the speed limit in most states. It suprises me the safety nuts havn't gone after that yet.
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Laz is spot on...
I was thinking of trying to fuel inject my Goat, but gave up on it cause I didn't want to spend the 2500$
That Richmond Gear tranny was an awesome upgrade best one I ever made, a slight pain to install but it made a huge difference in the car.
I had planned on going with a gearvenders overdrive for this goat, turning the 3 speed auto into an overdrive auto, but I had to spend the cash on something else. lol.
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Laz,
Did you end up using the drive shaft as well? Did I give it to you?