Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Zigrat on September 16, 2000, 10:42:00 PM
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Please look at the following film. This is the type of fight that makes me want to quit acs high. it is pilots like this that make me want to vomit. There are others of you out there who fly like this. You know who you are.
http://www.iit.edu/~buonmic/yak.ahf (http://www.iit.edu/~buonmic/yak.ahf)
and then at the end he says "sucks to be a loser"
i think that this shows who the loser truly is.
PLEASE don't go off on how "fly like you want. Its my 30$" Thats BS. What fun do you get out of flying like this? Please note I was engaged by a higher bandit, and i had a top speed higher than said bandit, with friendly ack nearby. But that's just not my style.
anyways, a big ol <finger> for my bud citabria
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Because he got in trouble and dove for the ack? You make it sound as if you HAD to follow.
Sorry Zigrat.. but this is not cool.
I find more wrong with you posting this here in this whining manner than I do with the incident.
This incessant whining is more of a problem than ack-hugging will ever be.
AKDejaVu
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I watched the film. Did the ack get your engine? Couldn't see the tracers on the film.
How did citabria pis you off? Flying style? Or did he say something that didn't show in the buffer? I didn't see anything in the buffer other than what you said.
No offense zig, but it looked like he may have just chosen the right time to get out of dodge. He might have had a lot of fuel, who knows? I screw up and tangle with yaks often in my G10. The key words being "screw up". The yak is very dangerous in a scissors vs. most planes in this game.
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<edit>
To answer: it was flying style, not anything he said that pissed me off.
And yes a 88mm shell pinged my engine from the factory neary.
<edit>
No Hblair, he didnt say anything to me until i said something.
The whole point is, ack should NOT be used as a defensive weapon once you are on your way and on the offensive!
Running to ack from a 4v1 situation? SURE that sounds fair, certainly more fair than a 4v1!
Hugging ack while trying to grab alt over a capped field? SURE that is more fair then letting them vulch you incessantly without protection.
Engaging in a 1on1 with an initial advantage, then running once you "lost" the fight? Cmon!
I also differentiate this from someone making 1 BnZ pass on a bandit, then egressing. I don't really count that as the fight being engaged, you aren't for lack of a better word "engrossed" in it. But once you have a 3 minute fight with a guy you want it to have a conclusion! If citabria had killed me, it would have been a good clean kill, and I would have <S> him. In fact, my next sortie up torque killed me in a similar situation. And i told him good kill. Because it was.
[This message has been edited by Zigrat (edited 09-16-2000).]
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<passes Ziggy 4 ludes and a 12 pack of beer>
Relax buddy! :-)
-SW
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Please Zig.. publish a list of rules so the rest of the arena knows how to fly when you are on. That's what you want isn't it?
Or do you want us to see this film and get all upset about it? Didn't happen with me. Won't happen with alot of people... might happen with some. Who cares?
I simply cannot believe you come to this bbs with that film to justify calling Cit a loser. That is sad man.. really sad.
AKDejaVu
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I watched the film and here is what I think. Citabria definately shouldn't have gotten the kill, she didn't land any strikes on you . But you really killed yourself, you should be mad at yourself not cit for that, I wouldn't have done that . And why did you bail out anyway ? If citabria would not have run you surely would've shot her down . She made the right decision, which is what a real life fighter pilot would've done . As for flying syle, some people would rather get an easy kill than die in a good fight . You can't make everyone fly the way you think they should, but you can tell them and everyone else what you think of them .
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I am sorry, but I dont have a problem with someone running for the ack. Using whatever tools the game has available to avoid dieing isnt a big deal to me. Cheating the game bothers me more, stuff like Alt-F4 to avoid dieing, etc. But diving for the ack? Nope.
I prefer to see it as more an acknowledgement of surrender. If someone allows themselves to be drug into ack and killed, well then they have not followed a good strategy.
just my thoughts,
Dago
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Zig have you tried a P47 lately. I thought he did a heck of a job considering. Use to be one of my favorites. I gave them up all togeather
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I watched the fight and it was a really cool fight. From the scissors to the rolling vertical moves I have to say well fought on both sides.
Only fault I see is Zigrat's for following Citabria into the factory AAA. I don't see the big deal about him taking to the AAA especially after Zig landed shells in the rolling vertical maneuver.
A low 47 is a sitting duck. I know this all too well. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) And running to the AAA was wise as it meant he was more likely to survive. Worse case, he ditches at the installation.
Again, the mistake was made by getting too close to the enemy flak battery. Sometimes you just need to know when to let a plane go. This is one I need to follow more myself.
I say good fight to both pilots.
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A little story. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Had a con on radar headin toward the field I lifted off from; so I headed on back to the field to see what it wuz. T'was a pony; commin in over a2 at 15k. I was at 20k; with cloudeck between us.
I snapped on the dar; and minmised the scale on the dispay; and stayed above the clouds. On the dar; the contact reverses course while obscured by the clouds so's I swing around behind him using the dar and wait for him to pop up...
There he is; A p51; D2 in front and below; perfect setup, popping thu the clouddeck below at the top of his zoom... no doubt lookin to pop up behind me. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) WHAM WHAM WHAM.. he's Toast, mebbe 5 seconds after he came thru the cloud.
The pony driver was shocked, to say the least...
Jonseses>> Hangtime; how'd you see me thru cloud??
Hangtime>> Radar.
Joneses>> Well; that was cheap.
Hangtime>> Thanks. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Oh well.. SA is part of flyin.. and lack of it get you dying. Stayin alive often has to do with how well you maintain your SA, and how aware of and how much you use The Tools at your disposal. Like friendly ack installations; friendly planes; terrain, clouds, radar, RW and the text buffer.
If you follow a guy into his countrymates guns or his countrys ground defenses, well; guess what? This is a SA fopah... and you will likely die.
If you lurk over an enemy field below cloud cover hopin to bounce some shmo takin off.. guess what? This ia also a SA fopah...
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hang
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Yes. Citabria is a loser.
But not for the reason you have presented. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
He flew smart. He used every means at his disposal to destroy the enemy at the least possible risk to himself and his aircraft. Exactly what his duty is. Finally, he used the ultimate weapon: the enemies own blinding greed agianst himself.
Just as he's gotta realize when its time to duck into some "cover" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) and you gotta realize when its time not to follow.
If you have a possible chance to get a positional advantage for a guns solution great. Failing that if you can get the enemy to get greedy and do something stupid that gets himself kilt then all the better.
In the end he flew off to look for another fight, leaving you to smoldered in a pile of wreckage.
There are only two types of pilots up there: Bastards and Suckers.
Take your choice on which you want to be.
The Bastards get to fly home and have drinks at the O'club and that night sneak over to tickle your widow.
The suckers get to sleep with the worms and grumble for eternity. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Regards,
Wab
[This message has been edited by AKWabbit (edited 09-17-2000).]
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Y so squeakY ZIGGY!!!!!!!!!!!!
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zig the point is they aint listening man
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good film I enjoyed it
thx zigrat.
was observing the mistakes I made in B&Zing the yak.
the P-47 does not have the ability to turn or maneuver with yaks thus I should have conserved more E by not making any horizontal tracking shots. the only cards I held were an altitude advantage and the ability to dive away after the E clock ran out.
I was keeping track of where that factory was the entire time as it was the only way to exit the fight if i was unable to land a crippling shot on the little fighter.
and suave stop calling me she you dork.
the callsign is from the plane I learned aerobatics on... a Citabria 7GCAA (Airbatic spelled backwards)
perhaps I will change my handle for kicks so I can be just another newbie on the prowl and you wont know who shot you down (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/mad.gif)
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by the way zig if you didnt bail trying to avoid giving a kill message to the enemy plane and just ditched you probably wouldnt have given me a kill since you were in your own territory.
"the kettle is black said the pot"
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I only run to ack under one circumstance.
Thats when its all I can think of.
I know why zig chased cit to the ack though.
Cause hes not affraid of it. He takes guys out hiding in ack all the time. Forgot the 88s though I guess.
Zig knows where to settle it if he as a problem with Cit...
Drop a white glove over a Bish aeodrome at dawn...
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Typical insolent response from citabria . I was already aware that it was the name of an airplane and that it is airbatic backward. It is also a girls name, I think they knew that too when they named the plane . Thats why I thought you were a woman, but I'm glad you took it so maturely .
Incedentally what is the salary range for a comercial pilot ?
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and suave stop calling me she you dork.
the callsign is from the plane I learned aerobatics on... a Citabria 7GCAA (Airbatic spelled backwards)
perhaps I will change my handle for kicks so I can be just another newbie on the prowl and you wont know who shot you down
Now THAT is why Cit is such a loser. No need to make it look as if his flying style has anything to do with it.
AKDejaVu
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Take it to email. Wish I had a kill file for the BBS.
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This is interesting and quite ironic for me. I think Citabria is an amazing pilot and I learned a lot from his write up on the P-38.
There was an incident that changed my opinion of the man and it is not at all unlike this incident right here.
I got into a dogfight with Citabria and after a few go rounds I decided there was no way I could top this guy so I ran to the nearest ack. I hate dying and would rather do anything I have to to survive. A little while later I spin around and, somehow, he ends up right in my sights. I fire and he blows up.
I usually squelch chanel 1 because I hate the childish name calling and whining. It ruins the imersion for me.
So Citabria comes on a private chanel and says to me, "Now you know how to kill me, run like a little girl to your ack like the sissy you are" or some such.
In any event, later I was flying around and managed to find Cit again. I also succumbed to his taunting and got into another dogfight. He creamed me, of course, from an energy disadvantage because he is a far superior pilot than I.
But here's what sucks: That was the least fun I've ever had playing this game. I actually felt worse than before I started. Is this fun cussing out people who beat you or who won't let you beat them? Insulting people you don't know?
Anyway, I just find it ironic that Citabria is on the receiving end of the EXACT SAME vicious crap he handed me.
Cit's response to the above was "Squelch me".
He makes the game be more work than it should.
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yesterday Gadget nailed citabria and once draget to ack after >>>>>>>> F...K . #@!$@$
!oscar@#%
from citabria
well i also squeak a max but dont cry
some people got big Ego and low moral
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we all loose our temper
I need a cat like hangtime has to kick around instead of using ch1 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Sorry, Zigrat, but I think I'm a loser too, because I've run to ack many times. My style has always been to do whatever it takes to stay alive (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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"we all loose our temper"
Hmm that's what OJ probably said...
Just yell out loud or type it on a private channel to yourself. I don't wanna read it on my Ch1 buffer.
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Zig, you *should* use *all* that is available to you to stay alive. If this means using the ack then so be it. Why should citabria just admit defeat and give you a kill?
You dont *have* to follow him or anyone into the ack.
Calling people losers is a very ironic.
Im sure you were pissed off at the time and we all get a bit irate. When i get pissed off cause something f**d up happened i go for a walk or something other than keep playing or posting on the BB.
This is the sort of thing that gets me down, posts on the board entitled "Why citabria is a loser"
[This message has been edited by Spatula (edited 09-17-2000).]
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I'm not trying to say Cit is like OJ BTW. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Originally posted by funked:
Take it to email. Wish I had a kill file for the BBS.
Amen...
Fight on "My Time, My Terms, My Ground"...
Regards,
Badger
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Finally, some entertainment here, off that annoying squelch 1 topic.
Zig, you got rope-a-doped so bad that fight was over long before you bailed out of a perfectly ditchable plane.
If you could have typed all the insults AND ditched, that would have been a film.
I wasn't impressed with chute talk, and Cit needs to work on his lead break when the plane icon blinks to chute icon. He was 2.4K away and didn't have much of a chance of turning in time for a shot.
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If he got roped then how did he live long enough to get hit by ack ? The only thing that I saw hitting his plane was flak .
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War is about survival not fairnes if this bothers you bye. Telling everyone to fight the way you want is B.S.
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Tommy (INDIAN) Toon
Indians Home page were links to help pages can be found.
Indian's Homepage (http://www.geocities.com/~tltoon)
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film unavailable
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Works fine here
edit: Cannot look film in my filmwiever (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
[This message has been edited by Staga (edited 09-17-2000).]
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Indian,
This isn't war. War is about survival, and in war I would certainly advocate using every possible means of survival! But this is a game, and most games are based on principles of fairness. Thats why they are enjoyable, because you don't know the outcome and it is fun to anticipate and wonder what the outcome will be. Then again, are you all pro wrestling fans, where the outcome is pre scriped and just watching it for the show? Personally I've never fould that entertaining.
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You know the more I think about this post the more it pisses me off. Having been the subject of a "So and so is a looser, I have film" post myself . This is the equivelant of scratching someones car instead of going face to face with him. If you have a beef with someone just shoot them down. A squadron logo from an old squad of mine comes to mind. Res non verba .
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Me neither. But I hear China has big hooters. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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I would expect more from Cit, I never thought he would sink as low as to run to ack from a 1v1. Thats just weak. He obviously didn't want to risk ending his streak.
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I find this selection interesting. Except for the direct references to Citabria, this pretty much sums up my experiences in the MA for the past couple of months...
There was an incident that changed my opinion of the man and it is not at all unlike this incident right here.
I got into a dogfight with Citabria and after a few go rounds I decided there was no way I could top this guy so I ran to the nearest ack. I hate dying and would rather do anything I have to to survive. A little while later I spin around and, somehow, he ends up right in my sights. I fire and he blows up.
I usually squelch chanel 1 because I hate the childish name calling and whining. It ruins the imersion for me.
So Citabria comes on a private chanel and says to me, "Now you know how to kill me, run like a little girl to your ack like the sissy you are" or some such.
In any event, later I was flying around and managed to find Cit again. I also succumbed to his taunting and got into another dogfight. He creamed me, of course, from an energy disadvantage because he is a far superior pilot than I.
But here's what sucks: That was the least fun I've ever had playing this game. I actually felt worse than before I started. Is this fun cussing out people who beat you or who won't let you beat them? Insulting people you don't know?
Anyway, I just find it ironic that Citabria is on the receiving end of the EXACT SAME vicious crap he handed me.
Cit's response to the above was "Squelch me".
He makes the game be more work than it should.
This pretty much captures the spirit of how I feel things have digressed.
Bringing things here that are personal never helps, either. E-mail is much better, and oftentimes you can reach an understanding that the open nature of the BBS will prevent. Additionally, we don't have to be the "udge-and-jury" of who is right or wrong. You may not reach an understanding, but at the very least you don't look like an bellybutton in the open forum for cussing someone out.
Personally, I don't care how anyone flies. They are either in a position where I can kill them or they aren't. I certainly may have a lot more respect for someone that can go into a crowd alone and pull out a lot of scalps and get away, but I wouldn't disrespect a pilot for hugging ack. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
[This message has been edited by Kieren (edited 09-17-2000).]
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>and most games are based on principles of
>fairness.
LoL.
This is a combat simulation. And combat is centered around the idea of denying the enemy every possible shred of fairness. Your duty is to gain every possible advantage while denying the enemy any possible advantage. The point of air combat is to orchestrate an uneven playing field in your favor (through alt, numbers, or position)and prosecute it ruthlessly until the enemy is destroyed. If at any time you lose the advantage you should consider declining the engagement if it is still possible to egress until such time as you once again hold all the cards.
You're either the meat-eater,
or the meat-eaten.
There is no third choice.
Regards,
Wab
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Its funny how most of these people that are advocating 'ack hugging' aren't exceptional pilots.
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And its funny how most of the people against ack hugging usually are killed by ack because they don't know when to disengage. I think you need to learn what does/does not make a good pilot.
For some reason, some people seem to think that AH is a large series of 1:1 dogfights. Each fight is a gunfight of sorts with two people standing at the end of a dirt road. Occasionally, there will be 2 people at the end of each road and that is ok too. Just don't ever allow 2vs1 or worse because that is not fair.
These people are the ones that are too clueless not to offend in the main arena. That pilot that dives into ack, gets shot down, then screams "ack hugger". That pilot that dives into a furball, gets shot down, then screams "gangbang". That pilot that respawns 20 times at a field, gets shot down every time, then screams "vulcher".
THESE are the people that make the game less fun. The people that can't accept that their own stupid decision was the reason they got killed. Time to learn to get over it. I see little difference between this type of whining and Cit's frequent outburst on channel 1.
AKDejaVu
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It is funny how people who say ack hugging is for dweebs are the ones with the elitist, "my sh!# don't stink and if you shot me down, then YOU must be the dweeb" attitude.
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"Any American fighter near Orote Penninsula. I have forty Jap planes surrounded and need a little help."
-Ens. W.B. "Spider" Webb during the Marians Turkey Shoot
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Its funny how one can make and bellybutton out of himself and not notice.
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Originally posted by Zigrat:
Indian,
But this is a game, and most games are based on principles of fairness. Thats why they are enjoyable, because you don't know the outcome and it is fun to anticipate and wonder what the outcome will be. Then again, are you all pro wrestling fans, where the outcome is pre scriped and just watching it for the show?
That is really interesting. I read very same argument about wrestling on the forum of the russian quiz game Who?Where?When? just few days ago (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
But here it sounds strange. You fight income was not prescripted, Cita used acks as a chance for defence, you tried to get him there, risked, and died. Do not see anything prescribed in the situation.
About fair chances, Cita had chance to go to acks, you had chance not to go into them. So it is fair. You have your own field with very same acks where you can hide. So again it is fair.
Fariz
"Errarum humanum est".
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
THESE are the people that make the game less fun. The people that can't accept that their own stupid decision was the reason they got killed. Time to learn to get over it.
AKDejaVu
Very true. Frustration is a great thing for a self development. Pity not to use it.
I remember once one great AH pilot shot me down several time same day. I recorded fights, then analized them, then find the tactics against his one and later this day shot him down twice more times than he did. It could not happen if I offended him to show myself that it was nothing that coincedence/cheating/unfair play/etc. Actually he was just great pilot, and he was better than me.
Actually each pilot who shot us down makes us a favour: another chance to study something new from someone, who is better.
Fariz.
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Originally posted by funked:
Take it to email. Wish I had a kill file for the BBS.
I really hated the popular move from newsgroups to web-based BBS. We had all we needed. I was using kill files back in 1992!
I was using a text-based, non-threaded unix Usenet newsgroup reader too (imagine reading all posts of all threads in chronological sequence), "rn", at a time where the Web didn't effectually exist yet and when all participants had to be technically savvy in order to participate in discussions on the Internet.
I remember the fear we had when AOL hooked up to the Internet, of the hordes of coming AOL newbies that didn't know or disregarded already established conventions like the NETiquette.
Somehow we survived. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
But to this day, to this Internet old-timer you're still all AOL newbies. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
One thing my experience in the Usenet newsgroups thought me though, is of the immense pool of different outlooks different individuals have on things. Someone's dweebish move is another's smart one. I personally strive to try to accept and respect other modes of thought (I often fail, to my sorrow).
That's why the continuing AH soap opera of people complaining of such dweebish move or that, never stops fascinating me. Sometimes I discover I'm falling in the trap too (I complained just yesterday of being straffed in my chute).
Well, here's a challenge at all dweebs. HO me, straffe me in my chute, drag me to the ack, throw molasses at my cockpit: bring it on, I can take it. It builds my character. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
DrSoya
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i would say close this silly thread
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Well, what a pity... I thought I had found an adult game, but it looks like i'm back 15 years ago in my school...
Zig, you said the word: THIS IS A GAME, so you can do everything you want unless it is forbidden by the official rules, and not by the rules you want the others to apply.
Ack-hugging, vulching or gangbanging have never disturbed me for the good reason that I can do the same if I want. (Only thing I hate is being shot down while) But i will surely not taunt the other guy. I disagree with his way of playing, thats all, and I wont go into a forum to say "xxx is a loser"
BTW Fariz, the citation is "Errare humanum est, sed perseverare diabolicum"
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Originally posted by Zigrat:
Indian,
This isn't war. War is about survival, and in war I would certainly advocate using every possible means of survival! But this is a game, and most games are based on principles of fairness. Thats why they are enjoyable, because you don't know the outcome and it is fun to anticipate and wonder what the outcome will be. Then again, are you all pro wrestling fans, where the outcome is pre scriped and just watching it for the show? Personally I've never fould that entertaining.
Ok I've gotta add my 2 cents to this now. If this game were about fairness, we'd all be flying the same plane and we'd all fly at 5k to engage other bandits. This game is NOT about fairness. Its about getting as many kills as you can while staying alive. If you want fair, join a ladder where the engagement principles are set in stone. Dont come to the MA and expect a fair fight. Most good pilots here wont give you one.
-Ding
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lets all go play fighter ace now were everything is the same. This is a game about war Dont like tuff. I tkae the biggest guns to battle I can and dont care what others think. This is my survival not your enjoyment. Dont like it TUFF. Grow up and get a life.
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Tommy (INDIAN) Toon
Indians Home page were links to help pages can be found.
Indian's Homepage (http://www.geocities.com/~tltoon)
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damn indian i have no quarrel with you, why you so hostile?
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!
"Fair Fight"??
My god... yer kiddin; right?
No?? LOL; did I ever tell you guys about the one I had with..
..never mind.
It never happened. He cheated. Or I did. Well; one of us sure did....
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hang
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We have met the dweebs. And they are us,.
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I love the fact that this game is not fair. It makes it exciting and unpredictable.
It also allows guys like me to get kills.
eskimo
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Zigrat sorry to sound that way (hostile) but this is a game about combat everything goes in combat either real or simulated. The oblect is to survive not play fair. Team work either by using players or computer controlled ack is survival. I strictly play for fun dont care about points I do watch kill numbers though. I like team work most.
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Tommy (INDIAN) Toon
Indians Home page were links to help pages can be found.
Indian's Homepage (http://www.geocities.com/~tltoon)
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AH1G and I were fighting against odds last nite, near A10, we'd just captured V41, so I said to my wingy "Stay between V41 and A10.."
Alas, bandits galore appeared, we ended up baggin 6 of them, however, AH1G was overwhelmed and died as I tried to scurry the mass upon him, no luck, I did get a few shots on them, so, now outnumbered, and at a height disadvantage, I took to a dive towards our island of hope, V41, 3 followed...
The Niki figured it out, and broke just as the AA opened up, the P51 chose to regain alt incase back up was on the way (wise choice, back up WAS on the way) and the Yak chose to try to kill me thru the flak, since I had some shells in the Yak, I was awarded the kill when the ack killed him.
In WW2, it was standard practice to run away to fight another day if you found yourself at a disadvantage...what would make it different here?
"Gentlemen, park your ego's at the door, state law prohibits a loaded ego on the premises, as it may cause anger and disention amongst the troops!"
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I have just one thing to say....
I LOVE YOU GUYS (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
I'm Out!
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OK i really want this topic to die,so lets make this the last post.
I make a *marked* distinction between egressing from a multi plane situation where you are outnumbered and out alted (no problem with that at all - just smart flying!) and a 1on1 situation where you bounce a lone con, initiate contact, then run to ack. Obviously if in case #2 he has 2 friendlies show up to back him up exiting is most prudent! But as long as it stays a 1v1 IMHO you should finish the fight (if you were the one that started it ie had the alt to begin with).
But anyways I over reacted (that is just so typically me) so I apologize to citabria (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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It's just a game.....sheeeesh
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WTG on the apologie Zig, I <S> you and Cita, you're both very fine pilots.