Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Axis vs Allies => Topic started by: CurtissP-6EHawk on July 27, 2003, 01:29:57 PM
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The Tiger 1 has 522 Kills and 143 Deaths.
The Tiger I has 209 kills and has been killed 60 times against the Bishops in the Panzer IV H.
Does the Tiger have a place in the CT?
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Of course it does, as much place as the Huge Ordance loads that allied planes cariy in any set up it is included in.
Tiger's can easly be killed by droping a bomb on them, you just nead to know how to do it.
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So while several Tigers are already on the field or inbound it takes how many bombers how long to depart, grab alt and drop bombs on these Tigers. If they miss, well...these guys are here to furball while a few Tiger drivers are nearly invincible.
So it takes Aircraft to Kill a Tiger....that doesn't make it "Balanced" GV Vs GV now does it?
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so how come i them damn panzers keep killing my tiger ???
It wasnt just once either, it happened several times last week, and not only to me, does that mean the panzer should be removed too because it's a threat to the so called --invincable-- Tiger ?
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Tiger vs
Panzer......209 Kills,...60 Deaths
Ship Gun.......1 Kill,.....37 Deaths
Typhoon......53 Kills,...25 Deaths
A-20G..........37 Kills,...10 Deaths
C-47..............3 Kills, 0 Deaths
Unknown......11 Kills, 1 Death
B-26...............9 Kills, 1 Death
Spit V...........34 Kills, 1 Death
Spit IX..........50 Kills, 4 Deaths
M16..............38 Kills, 0 Deaths
M3.................2 Kills, 0 Deaths
Ostwind........1 Kill, 0 Deaths
Lancaster.....5 Kills, 1 Death
PT Boat.........6 Kills, 0 Deaths
P-47D-11.....17 Kills, 2 Deaths
LVTA4...........8 Kills, 0 Deaths
LVTA2..........10 Kills, 0 Deaths
M-8..............10 Kills, 0 Deaths
Hurii IIC.......6 Kills, 0 Deaths
Hurri IID......11 Kills, 1 Death
Boston III.....1 Kill, 0 Deaths
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Telstar look at the Panzer vs Tiger stats.
Tiger......209 Kills
Panzer.....60 Kills
Kill/Death ratio, Tigers Three most feared
Ship Guns
Typhoon
A-20
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Tigers are included for Historical resion's and are off set by the allied jabo abaility to kill then, any of the allied planes capable of schleping a bomb can kill them, the 37mm gun on the fields can kill them as can the Panzer's, about the only thing the Tigers realy have going for them is that you nead to be a decent shot with a bomb to kill them, or hit them in the side or at close range with the other Tanks/37mm field gun.
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Brady I am not arguing that they can not be killed, but how the CT is played.
For gameplay the stats tell us that the Tiger is not balanced.
The same for the N1K2. Due to the way the CT is played, the N1K2 is unbalanced.
Remember the CMs two most favorite words; "Balanced" "Unbalanced" !!
Thats my argument.
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Originally posted by CurtissP-6EHawk
Tiger vs Panzer......209 Kills,...60 Deaths
Once saw a player get over over fifty kills spawn camping .... off of one player. I can't hardly believe the player that kept respawning was just that stupid. *ShruG*
Never-the-less (and I know it's a deviation of topic) I always thought it would be an interesting idea to incorporate "fortified" spawnpoints ... either by terrain design (spawning in fortified buildings? caves ... if they're possible?, a steep/small circular hill with the only opening being where the spawning tank faces when it spawns?) or by coding a 20 yd radius around a spawn point where damage cannot be inflicted upon the spawner .... nor could the spawner (or anyone else who enters the circle) fire their weapons. Granted, there could still be spawn campers watching and waiting in ambush .... but at least the spawning player can look around and perhaps position to at least slug it out (or, seeing the point surrounded by a half dozen Tigers, opt out of leaving the circle of protection and spawn elsewhere).
Ok .... I'm done with my mini-hijack. :D
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The Stats show a lot of Vulching and people augering into the ground near the Tiger, their is more to a balance question than the kill stats which dont realy show the whole picture.
About the only thing that can be done in any late war set up featuring German vs Allied (not Russian) plane set's is to add the Tiger to offset the Huge Ordance delevery advantage the allies have, now this is also Historical in the since that for the most part allied (western ) armor was not very survivable by comparasion, but it is not a balance issue per say since the Tiger is easly killed by Allied Jabo's, limited in aplication by Spawn points and easly neautralised by killing the single Vehical hangers that fead the atacks.
Now wheather Players excersise the option to kill them or their hangers using a tool/method to do so is up to them, I see guys strafing them all day long with 50cal guns and woundering why it is not working for them, well their is a learning curve in AH and some folks are just starting, then on the oppset end you will see guy's like Widwing who will kill you 9 times outa 10 with his Jabo when your in a Tiger.
This is in part why Stats are kinda BS when it comes to determing a balance question they dont tell you the whole story, and they are easly misenturpeted.
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Brady you know as good and well as I do that these guys dont play "Stratagy".
Once again, how many guys does it take to kill a Tiger? I have seen three Tigers keep 20 guys bzy. I am not arguing agnst you, I am arguing the way the CT is played. When the tide turns and the allies have the advantage, say the F4U vs the A6M5 well, then the IJN guys squeak like a damn sailer and get the F4U removed. Historicly if it belongs, then let it stay but look how it is being used and simply adjust the availability.
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That is typicaly what we do Hawk, I think that were (or I ) am not seeing it the same way you do.
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since the Tiger is easly killed by Allied Jabo's, Thats a stretch.
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I agree slash, I generally ignore the tigers and panzers and go for the easy kills (flaks, m16's, m3s) but when I do, I never seem to be able to do more than detrack a tiger.
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"Thats a stretch", It is easly killed by people who know how to do it, hear in lies the rub, do we asume that the allied players are unskilled greenhorns who cant hit a thing (my self included, since I fly allied as well on ocashion) and remove the Tiger since we cant posably expect them to think to go and kill the VH or learn how to dive bomb, that would asking to much, or do we asume that they will rise to the chalange and learn the game and the strengths and weakness of the units they fly aganst and use their heads if they want to. When pulled out the context of a set up any one unit could look on paper to be out of balance but when viewed withen that context aganst all the other planes/GV's in that set up we find in this case it is not out of balance, unless of course your kinda stuck on that issue:)
It should also be noted that this is not a perfect science, while we strive for competative and fair plane set's thier are always things that never stack up nore should their be, The Allies will always have More Bomb's and The Hispano, and the 50 cal, the Axis will have the Tiger (the Russians will to), and Blue Planes will always be out turned by the Empire (except the Wildcat of course), these are given's and add as much to imershion as the paint jobs and the planes themself's.
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brady, he's got a point.
It is killed, just like any other vehicle, yeah... but unlike the others - it requires a precision drop which the planes have to duly prepare for. In most cases, people just want to kill it quickly and do it the wrong way.. but in other cases, sometimes they just don't have that much time. GVs spawn instantly, while planes, especially if they are trying to kill Tigers, need sufficient time.
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I'm wondering if future terrains - new or revised - are looking to implement some ideas to adequately simulate ground combat conditions into something more reasonable.
For instance, a VH wouldn't spawn directly towards an enemy base, but instead, maybe a string of v-bases can be placed between the two hostile fields, like beads in a necklace. So, the long drives are avoided, but still it would take sequential capture of V-spawn points to finally approach a crucial field/target.
Ofcourse, the magical terrain wizards ;) can think of the more various ways to cleverly disguise the Vbases.. maybe something like a local string of towns acting as Vbases.. maybe couple of buildings, or barricaded points.. etc etc
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Well some people are realy put out by GV's this is true, they have to actualy do more than point their guns at them and fire to kill them ( realy only the Tiger is like this prety nuch everything else can be killed by most guns), personaly I think the whole Air to ground interface in AH is extreamly Gammy, planes were not anywhear near as effective aganst GV's as they are in AH in real life. I gues my come back is this, if they dont want to have to engage the GV's then they can fly from another field, it's all part of the game, and the Tiger is realy prety rare in the CT.
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brady,
Just give in and give them the following srtup:
Axis:
A6M2
A6M5b
B5N2
C-47A
D3A1
Ki-61-I-KAIc
Ki-67
M-3
M-8
M-16
PT-Boat
Allies:
B-26B
C-47A
FM2
F4U-1
F4U-1D
F4U-1C
F4U-4
F6F-5
P-38L
P-47D-25
P-47D-30
P-51D
SBD-5
Seafire Mk IIc
TBM-3
LVT-2
LVT-4(A)
M-3
M-8
M-16
Panzer IV H
PT Boat
Ostwind
Let them have their playground for at least a week. They'll get a kick out of it, I'm sure.
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lol, I would never run that, we ran stuff like that a long time ago and those set up's sucked bad, had low attendance and got the Japanese embasy so pissed at HTC that they threatend to invade Texas.
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I know that.
They need another demonstration though.
Given many of the things I've read there is a group of CT players that seems to see that as the model of balance.
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Dunno `bout that. There's a few but most seem to be sayin', "See? Ya'll had yer panties in a wad over speedcharts and such fer nuthin'." ;)
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Arlo,
That is why they are whining about the presence of the N1K2-J?
You'll note I left it out of my suggested setup.
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Originally posted by Karnak
Arlo,
That is why they are whining about the presence of the N1K2-J?
You'll note I left it out of my suggested setup.
They who? :D
I've seen some askin' for other hogs to get added ... some ... not many. I've seen some say ... look at these k/d stats. What was everyone so worried about? And then there's this thread talking about the Tiger.
Ok ... again ....
They who? ;)
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hehehe I wasnt exactly whinning...just posted the stats. The stats dont lie. They can be misleading at times but its obvious in the furball fighting, which is what the CT is all about, the N1K2J is a bit "unballanced" and the GV war, the Tiger is a bit "unballanced". Brady keeps claiming the the Tiger is added to even up the "allied Jabo" but how can the allies jabo if they are spending all thier time bombing Tigers on thier own fields? What about the allied GVs?????????
All the allies have is the Panzer and the stats say the Panzer will not stand up to the Tiger. That is unballanced.
Oh yeah, what about the current set-up, was the IJA tanks as good as the Panzer tanks? I really dont know, just wanted to know!
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Does the current setup have F4Us? If so, the N1K2 should not be a problem. If not, then the F4Us need to be added ASAP.
As far as the tanks go. I agree that the Japanese should not get the Panzer. Their tanks were about like the A-8 (tougher, but slower). However, the tanks they were up against were mostly light American tanks that wouldn't sink in the tropical mush. Now, the American light tanks were much better than the Japanese tanks, but not nearly as much better as the Panzer is to the M-8.
Currently there is not an adequate solution to the Pacific tank issue.
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Shermans were used on Okinawa, they suffered aprox. 100% atration, most loses were do to Japanese 47mm AT guns which were dug in heavely all over Okinawa, we decided to go with the Panzer on both sides since it would play well and also represent the dug in defenses of Okinawa to a degree.
F4U's are enabled as are FM2's which are available everywhear.
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You dont hear much about tanks in the Island wars, I guess that is way!!
Oh and Karnak, The F4Us are available but you know how the CT crowd loves to furball. The F4U is to slow, as well as the P-47 and do not turnfight. The frefered ride in the CT is for the kill then be killed furballing. The F6F and the FM2.