Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Hardware and Software => Topic started by: 38ruk on July 28, 2003, 08:49:47 PM
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hello all. lately ive been trying out rudder pedals . i was wondering if it is worth the trouble. ive flown with a twisty stick for the last seven years in a couple of sims, and am having a real tough time making the switch. Is it worth the head ache? im gettin tired of missin shots cause i cant get used to them. is it worth the couple of months of frustrations, are they that much better than a twisty. thanks for any advice on the matter
38
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Yes.
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Peddals are great
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Personally, I would recommend against getting a set of pedals. However, I also say junk the twisty stick. I recommend instead that you get the Saitek X45 with the rudder rocker under the throttle.
I got a set of Thrustmaster pedals way back in the mid-90s and they served me very well for many years. I used them with 2 generations of TM sticks and throttles, and then later with a CH stick and throttle.
But several years ago, my CH stuff wore out and TM at that time was out of business. I was tired of the limited functionality of CH stuff compared to what TM used to have, so I decided to risk something else. Besides, I wanted to go digital, being tired of pots getting dirty, and USB as well. Thus, I got the Saitek (which at that time was called the X36), which had even more functionality than my older TM stuff.
The Saitek, as noted above, doesn't have rudder pedals. Instead, it's got a rocker bar on the bottom side of the throttle handle, which you work with the middle and ring fingers of the left hand. This did NOT sound like a good idea to me, and caused me real reluctance in making the purchase. But finally, it came down to only Saitek at that time offering the functionality I wanted, so I figured I'd take a risk on it. It took me a week or so to get used to it, and to figure out how to set the damping and deadbands to give me the desired degree of control. However, once I got it all sorted out, I fell in love with the Saitek rocker. I now like it way better than I ever did my pedals.
As I see it, the rocker has the following advantages over pedals:
- Doesn't slip out of position on the floor, or require a mount on the floor to keep it stationary
- No wire coming up from below the desk to tangle your foot on, run over with your chair's wheels, etc.
- Doesn't get all full of dirt, chip crumbs, pet hair, and spiders because it's not on the floor. These aren't as big a concern these days with digital gear, but even without pots the crap can still gunk up pedals and you might get a spider bite if you fly barefoot.
- Allows you to change your sitting position easily during flight because you're not tied to where the pedals are. This is wonderful during long scenario hops.
Anyway, I'm sold on the Saitek thing and recommend it as a better alternative to pedals.
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worth the trouble? quite the opposite.
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thx for the replies... bullethead i tried the x-45 and didnt care for the rocker thats why im using the pedals , very good points thou,as far as seat pos. and such. its just been a big change to go to rudder pedals. im just wondering if its going to help my acm when i dont have to twist my wrist in awkward position thx all
38
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I learned AH, my first flight sim, with a twisty stick... MS Sidewinder Precision Pro, then moved to Logitech Wingman Extreme 3D digi stick with twisty, ... currently running the Saitek X45 and a set of CH pedals... I would never go back to a twisty stick. I dislike the rudder rocker on the X45 as well, though I love the rest of the setup. Once you get used to them, the acm advantages of pedals far outweigh the crud on the floor problems, at least for me. Besides, just be sure the potato chips go IN the mouth, and there is no problem! :)
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Yes
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YES!
Get a good set with toe brakes.
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Avoid rudder pedal !
With rudder pedal you can't fly and practice yoga .
The lotus position is impossible to do with rudder:
(http://www.watchman.org/graphics/exercisereligion.jpg)
My guess is that rudder owner are responsible of a considerable amount of whine on channel 1 ...
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I used twisty stick.. i can hardly imagine myself flying with either one :p
I'll prolly be gettin pedals though..
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Pedals are for pilots...twisty sticks are for kids:)
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Originally posted by Rude
Pedals are for pilots...twisty sticks are for kids:)
Your sentence is extremly funny for me :)
Hint (1st link) :
google (http://www.google.com/search?q=pedale)
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REAL MEN USE PEDALS !!!
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I don't think i have the pedals axis set quite right. Anybody out there that can post a pic of their rudder axis?
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Originally posted by Kronos
I don't think i have the pedals axis set quite right. Anybody out there that can post a pic of their rudder axis?
it's z or x in the ah jstick setup screen
be sure to calibrate them along with your jstick - I calibrate first thing each time I log into AH.
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i am totally in love with my CH Pro pedals Funkedup sold me (ty again bro :D )
i learned to fly on the logitech wingman twisty. after about 5 of em in a year and a half (im real tough on em lol) i upgraded to the x45.
the seperation of rudder from my right hand was tough to overcome (still havent fully gotten it yet) but i noticed a difference in my capabilities right away.
now with the pedals im just getting the hang of them. it is amazing what you can do in a flash just by slamming 1 foot forward. ;) the only drawback i see is im not gettin 's for a good fight as much as i did back in the twisty days 1.5 years ago :D im kinda wondering if somone using a twisty stick can do something completely wild that a full HOTAS + pedal setup can't.
oh well i digress... pedals are the way to go i think. your thought process while flying is totally diferent. you actually plan your moves and evasives, because you know what you can and can't do. IMHO you fly ALOT more "in control" once you get the hang of it. no to mention the "coolness" factor that you are simulating real flight (or at least closer to it than with a twisty "joy"stick. :D
in closing... go with 'em. your gunnery hit% will take a sharp drop at first because of the ammount of rudder used in aiming, but after that you will love it too. :)
oh well my 2¢
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Had pedals for 5 years since Red Baron - AH is my 3rd online sim and I couldn't fly without them now
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if you want to feel more like flying a real aircraft, use pedals.
that's the bottom line :p
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Hey 38,
You porbably did so already but just incase,
Adjust you sliders in joystick setup so the middle is not as sensative and most sensative at full deflection.
They are really hard to use if they are too sensative.
Put in the time, they are well worth it.
mars
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Originally posted by Eagler
it's z or x in the ah jstick setup screen
be sure to calibrate them along with your jstick - I calibrate first thing each time I log into AH.
Yes I know this. I'm looking for the rudder axis 0-90 chart with the deadband scrollbars, if someone has a good setup could you snapshot it here plz?
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Yes to Rudder pedals, You will spend the 1st week forgetting they are there (Until you realise you can't trim because you have your left foot resting on them). The 2nd week over using them and finally it will all drop into place, I've been using them for about a year and now I won't fly a sim I can't get them configured in. You just can't get the control with a twisty stick. (Yes I get killed all the time with guys who use em but I could never go back). Take off and landing is transformed and jabo's are so much easier IMO.
Just don't forget Left pedal is left, Right is right (I spent the 1st few weeks with them configured like bicycle handlebars). :p
Real planes use them rather than a twisty, there must be a reason.
TTFN
snafu
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Originally posted by Kronos
Yes I know this. I'm looking for the rudder axis 0-90 chart with the deadband scrollbars, if someone has a good setup could you snapshot it here plz?
(http://www.pogbird.com/X45/ah_rudder.jpg)
My other ones are the same, except for throttle which both are all the way to the bottom.
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Originally posted by straffo
Avoid rudder pedal !
With rudder pedal you can't fly and practice yoga .
The lotus position is impossible to do with rudder:
(http://www.watchman.org/graphics/exercisereligion.jpg)
My guess is that rudder owner are responsible of a considerable amount of whine on channel 1 ...
you too?;)
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I wouldn't fly without rudder pedals. No way a twisty stick can give you the same response or control accuracy like rudder pedals can.
ack-ack
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I say nix the pedals, maybe. You really need to see what's best for you. Bottom line is hit percentage and control of the nose in close. How well are you able to throw the shot and control it?
I work on two fundamental principles. First, rudders are only for the runway. If you have to use them in a shot - you pooched the
setup and are trying to save it. Second - see the first.
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Eagler - Isn't that the default setting? I thought u were supposed to stagger them up.. How much of a difference does it make do you think?
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Pedals,
They are great to rest your feet on... Once you get the pedals and you have flown about an year or so, try to take them away and you will understand :)
And you can use them for other things also, car games etc...
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You dont aim with your rudder :p
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Originally posted by Eagler
(http://www.pogbird.com/X45/ah_rudder.jpg)
My other ones are the same, except for throttle which both are all the way to the bottom.
Interesting, I have never changed these settings. Is there an advantage?
Rudders with brakes are the chit, meaning buy the CH Pro Pedals USB, and I use them with the USB Saitek X45. A perfect combo.
Although I have been having problems with one or the other just stop working in WinXP mid flight in AH, certainly there is a cause/fix to it. Hope so anyway, but I have just been dealing with it. It's just so much better than the hoopty twisty stick, I try to ignore it, although it is becoming a pain.
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Creamo - I use the same setup. I've not had the rudder pedals stop working, however, I have noticed that the X45 will dump randomly. Doesn't happen very often, but I completely loose my profile, and the joystick hat goes haywire. Have to restart the comp to fix it. Is this similar to what your getting?
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Not exactly.
Ive been flying and my rudder pedals just go away. In troubleshooting, I try to stay out of autopilot at most times, putting input into the pedals. Its worked so far. They simply "go to sleep" it seems if not used, Im guessing anyway. Certainly if I leave my computer for awhile, the CH Pedals never are working after a time. I just have to unplug and replug them in. This is a constant.
The Saitek has just started doing this, but it's about my 3 month reformat time and all things are getting screwed up, so in this case who knows. Its been more frequent, and frustrating.
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Originally posted by Kronos
Eagler - Isn't that the default setting? I thought u were supposed to stagger them up.. How much of a difference does it make do you think?
my understanding was that USB jstick/peds didn't need any help and with these settings what you see is what you get - a one to one ratio to your input and its response
works ok for me, used for years, anything else seems sloppy and with delay
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Originally posted by Creamo
Not exactly.
Ive been flying and my rudder pedals just go away. In troubleshooting, I try to stay out of autopilot at most times, putting input into the pedals. Its worked so far. They simply "go to sleep" it seems if not used, Im guessing anyway. Certainly if I leave my computer for awhile, the CH Pedals never are working after a time. I just have to unplug and replug them in. This is a constant.
The Saitek has just started doing this, but it's about my 3 month reformat time and all things are getting screwed up, so in this case who knows. Its been more frequent, and frustrating.
try a powered USB hub - had weirdness with peds before hooking up my Belkin USB hub ( @$15 at best buy)
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Pedals are great. They are amazing. They add a tons into your flying and into immertion. It takes quite long time to get used to them specially after twisty stick, but when you do, using them is very natural and easy.
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Originally posted by ebgb
I say nix the pedals, maybe. You really need to see what's best for you. Bottom line is hit percentage and control of the nose in close. How well are you able to throw the shot and control it?
I work on two fundamental principles. First, rudders are only for the runway. If you have to use them in a shot - you pooched the
setup and are trying to save it. Second - see the first.
Rudders aren't used for aiming. I myself use the rudders to aid in turning by using them to roll into my turns and in some cases to control my speed in dives by using opposite rudder to increase drag.
Having started off in flight sims using a twisty stick, all I can say is that rudder pedals are leaps and bounds better than any twisty stick rudder system.
ack-ack
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rudders are sometimes used for aiming .. just have to compensate for yaw
sometimes its the only way to get nose around fast enough to attempt a snap shot
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Rudders aren't used for aiming.
ack-ack
:eek:
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"rudders aren't used for aiming"
Well that is sort of what I was saying -
If you have to use the rudder to shoot, you've pooched your
approach. My point - don't use the rudder, use ACM's instead.
Still you need a bit of rudder to strafe ground targets, when
playing chicken in a HO attack, and for snapshots.
I would not select a rudder system purely for the aesthetics of flight - coordinated flight and all, I'd rather have a rig that shoots good (no nose bounce).
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Used a sidewinder from the time I tried AW till when I started AH.After about 6 months of AH my Sidewinder died and with recomendations from the guys in the squad I broke down and bought the CH Fighterstick and Pro pedals.Both USB. I'll NEVER fly withput rudders again.It was a huge diffrence. Ran me about 200$ delivered for the pair
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I use pedals, wouldn't go back!
When I first started AH I was using some TM racing pedals, and unfortunately the option to invert the axis didn't exist back then so...
Push right pedal nose goes left, push left pedal nose goes right.
Now I use CH pro pedals, and I invert the axis. It feels natural to me, of course I've been doin it this way for a long time.
SKurj
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ACMs arent the end all, be all solution for everything.. Rudders are for aiming, unless you always..
A: have absolute precision in pointing your nose blind..
or B: do a 90* roll, turn a couple of degrees, then roll back 90* to correct the yaw..
See sig line 1
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1st off, they approximate the feel of flying in real life much better than a twisty stick. 'specially the ones with toe brakes. Great for aerobatics like snap rolls, wingovers, etc...
2nd, you really want to de-couple the rudder from the joystick, as it is almost impossible to get just rudder action without influencing your other control axis. Go into the joystick setup in AH and try to turn a twisty stick without moving the other axis, you'll see what I mean.
3rd, immersiveness. Similar to #1, some great "rudder pedal moments" include being able to give your plane a quick blast of throttle and pivot right around to get on and off the re-arm pad , and going HO against a buff formation and slewing sideways at the last second to rake em from stem to stern :)
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Goob, glad you said, it, I was reading on and on, and no one else seemed to realize that. Twisty stick= unintentional rudder use occasionally, and I would imagine even the best pilot would experience this slightly, probably without noticing. Ya gotta figure, even the smallest amount of unintentional sideslip bleeds E and speed, which after a few turns in a fight adds up pretty quickly. Totally independent controls are definitely better.
and Rutilant... you forgot one...
Rudders are for aiming, unless you always..
C) believe that your opponent will only do what you expect him to. Slightly feathering the rudders as needed can help with the slightest gunsight correction when the other guy zigs instead of zags, etc. But I guess I'm just one of those unskilled dweebs that enemys refuse to fly straight for, and who can't make the perfect setup. :)
All flight controls are integral to any fight. Rudders can be invaluable as part of ACM. I don't see how the two can be separated. I would defy the best "stick" around to either lock his twisty stick axis, or keep his feet off the pedals, and see what happens to his overall success. A good pilot could compensate pretty well I'm sure, but the rudders are too useful to discount them so easily. As far as using rudders to aim meaning you have blown your setup, I suppose the alternative is to disengage and try again for the "perfect" setup? uh huh... IMO, pedals are the only way to go.
Creamo, I would second the powered USB hub suggestion. X45 and CH pedals here, never any "drop out" problems... though the pedals are older gameport ones, but the X45 is plugged in to the hub. Hope it helps.
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I highly recommend rudder pedals. Especially the CH Pro Pedals USB. The toe brakes on them come in very handy for turning and/or stopping on the runway. It's very immersive, too. Also a great place to rest your feet when you're not using them.
However, it is true that you won't be able to practicce your yoga while using them, LOL! :)
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Rudder pedals are obsolete. Do you still dim your car lights with a floor button? Someday all real flight vehicles will also have twisty sticks.
What is more intuitive than having major wing and tail controls for one hand instead of having to coordinate with two feet?
Hail to the Logitec Wingman Extreme with the new cup hat (instead of cone).
(Editor's note: Do NOT research this poster's scores and make snide unflattering remarks about his dearth of decent scores.)
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Originally posted by Rude
Pedals are for pilots...twisty sticks are for kids:)
I take the view that pedals are for pilot wannabes. I've done the RL pilot thing (900 hours), and that's why I don't have to "prove myself" here. In this *game*, a twisty stick is all I have ever wanted or needed. This debate is not going to sway me one way or the other, whatever the outcome.
Next upgrade I shall get a mobo with at least 4 USB ports, and install the optional USB headers, and make my system as USB oriented as possible. Then I will replace my MSW PP stick with a FoxPro2 USB twisty.
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Originally posted by beet1e
I take the view that pedals are for pilot wannabes. I've done the RL pilot thing (900 hours), and that's why I don't have to "prove myself" here. In this *game*, a twisty stick is all I have ever wanted or needed. This debate is not going to sway me one way or the other, whatever the outcome.
Next upgrade I shall get a mobo with at least 4 USB ports, and install the optional USB headers, and make my system as USB oriented as possible. Then I will replace my MSW PP stick with a FoxPro2 USB twisty.
But this *game* is also a *simulation*, a WW2 Combat Flight Sim.
They help to *simulate* it.
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Originally posted by Halo
Rudder pedals are obsolete. Do you still dim your car lights with a floor button? Someday all real flight vehicles will also have twisty sticks.
What is more intuitive than having major wing and tail controls for one hand instead of having to coordinate with two feet?
Hail to the Logitec Wingman Extreme with the new cup hat (instead of cone).
(Editor's note: Do NOT research this poster's scores and make snide unflattering remarks about his dearth of decent scores.)
What makes you think that we don't have the technology now to do that ? and why have that not done it ?
Why haven't they integrated the accelerator for a car right on the steering wheel ?
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If you want the challenge of co ordinating more axis then go for the pedals...............
I run a Saitek X45 with Ch pro USB pedals.
I hated the rocker control for rudder on the X45 and now have it set for to out put banded DX commands and use it for flaps up and down.
Twisty grip is is actually easier for game play.
Interms of fidelity best is pedals, then most twisty's then rocker rudders. (although rocker rudders will allow you to fly Bombers from a gunner position more easily than twisty)
Interms of co ordinating various limbs to achieve your goals
Twisty is easier.
Having mastered limbs pedals give a control edge.
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You will never see a twisty stick in a real airplane ever. Not in a million years.
If you have a hard time coordinating your feet with your hands maybe you shouldn't leave the asylum 8).
Mars01 M.A.W. Blacksheep
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Ever fly an Ercoupe?
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Thats not a twisty stick.
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You are right, it is not a Microsoft Precision Pro knock off, but it does pretty much address the second part of your post on it :)
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That was only done on two planes as far as i know.
the euro coup and Navion. Most Navion buys remove the auto coordination.
So yes two very old planes out of how many. Any new planes built this way?
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Not that I know of. Flew both of those (Navion with standard layout and upgraded Ercoupe) having pedals IS mucho better.
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Yep I agree,
Never flew the Euro Coup, but I did fly the Navion, it actually had the Coordinated pedals. It was cool and it worked, but I didn't like it either.
Wont work too well in a spin either. Good thing they still have the peddals 8).
BTW - Great Avatar 1941 is one of the best all time movies!
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You can fly just as good with a twisty stick as you can using pedals. No one is better than the other, it's only a matter of getting used to it. I flew with Twisty stick for about 5 years before I finally changed, I like pedals alot better now, much because I fly in real life aswell I guess.
Matter of liking or not liking, pedals won't make you a better pilot nor will they make you worse.
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Because it isolates your inputs. I doubt there is anyone on this board who could hold a steady fixed amount of elevator and aileron while twisting a stick back and forth. I would go so far as to say it's damn near impossible. Anyone who thinks a twisty is comparable is deluding themselves.
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One point I have not seen brought up is CARPEL TUNNEL!
Twisty sticks are murder on the Carpel Tunnel for SOME PEOPLE!
I have flown with X45 (hmmm...seems to have a slightly slower response to input then all the following? and the view hat wore out rather quickly!)... Logitech(quick response but die within 6 months pots)... MS sidewinder(Pots lasted longer then logi)... TM Afterburner(very quick response, has either twisty or rocker, but cheap wearout pots!)... and now using an old (analog) Suncom F16 (fairly quick response to input) hooked to TMElite pedals and a (usb) CHPro Throttle. Going to all CHPro USB setup later when the money is available. Stick, throt, and pedals.
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Originally posted by wrag
I have flown with X45 (hmmm...seems to have a slightly slower response to input then all the following? and the view hat wore out rather quickly
View hat was 1st to go on mine after 2 years...... Saitek sent me a complete handle FOC and I soldered it on.
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Well g00b, I could when I was using twisty, it's a matter of getting used to it and have good support for your arm.