Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: muckmaw on July 30, 2003, 10:55:57 AM
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[Engage Whine-Drive]
I never realized how porked the stats are until today.
Apparently, if you fly bombers and go after difficult targets, you are penalized in competition for rank with the guys who up lancs and carpet bomb an undefended Strat target.
I've seen some of the top scorers in the bomber category average 1 million points per hour, and never shoot down an enemy plane. What does this scream? Milkrun, in my book.
You don't get that going after fighter hangars or CV's.
Perhaps this is the way it shold be, but I just can't spend my leasure time flying long hops to hit undefended, useless targets.
I guess I'll have to accept low stats and keep having fun.
[Whine drive disengaged]
Oh wait...I need the whine points...
ummm..
This sucks.
I'm cancelling my subsciption
Perk the LA-7
Move the fields further apart
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yes, i was thinking this earlier!
i've sunk about 5 cv's this tour level bombing in b-26's and i was ranked 1400 or something.
So this morning i did a milkrun in lanc where i dropped bombs on both barracks factory and city to see how it improves my rank. Will be interesting.
You should get mega points for targets such as cv's and hq's as these are much harder targets.
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I've been having a great tour against CV's.
I must have gotten about 5 as well, but god forbid part of your salvo misses...boom...your rank is history.
You just don't get rewarded for going after the tough to hit, or meaningful targets.
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well if the strat targets MEANT something, then that would solve your problem. Bombers are supposed to hit factories and cities.
They are milk runs because those target mean nothing at all to the game or how the war is fought, so why waste valuable fighter time flying to defend a useless factory?
And don't forget, the best LANC milk-runners carry the 4K cookie and drop ONLY that on the center of a factory. That ensures them a bomb hit % WAY above 100%.. we're talking 700% in some cases...
Hmm.. HT could fix that by making the highest hit percentage 100%.
There are just too many ways score dweebs can manipulate gameplay to make their scores look so good.
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just checked rank, down to 800 or so in bombers, thats a gain of 600 in just 1 milkrunning sortie.
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Furball The Milkrunning DWEEB :eek:
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Back in WWII, whenever they had a bombing mission that took out a target and didn't encounter fighters, I think they called that a 'well planned, succesful mission'.
Good thing we're not interested in emulating the actual WWII experience here! Otherwise, we might miss out on hearing people complaining about 'milkrunning dweebs'.
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Originally posted by Chairboy
Back in WWII, whenever they had a bombing mission that took out a target and didn't encounter fighters, I think they called that a 'well planned, succesful mission'.
Good thing we're not interested in emulating the actual WWII experience here! Otherwise, we might miss out on hearing people complaining about 'milkrunning dweebs'.
True, unless they didn't expect to encounter any fighters, then they would call it a milk run.
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the ranking system as a whole is pitiful and has NO real value to either game play or determining the "best" pilot. You cant engage a ground target if your flying a "fighter" hop without damaging rank. You cant up from a capped field without damaging rank (assuming you get vulched part of the time). To the best of my knowledge plane type doesnt effect rank so flying a P40 or jug is no diff than a nikki, pony la-7 at least in the "kills" portion.
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Btw. I'm not joining in this whine. I couldn't care less how the "war" is going, I want the action. If a "milkrunner" wants to do a low lever Lanc run that I can intercept I'm all for it. :D
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I have no problem hitting a target that means something. If I don't see any fighters, fine. A good fighter assault on my bombers is just gravy. My satisfaction comes from hitting a target that counts toward helping my team get a capture, prevent a capture or further the "War".
Stats are not all important, but it would be nice as an added bonus for a difficult job well done.
It's the fact that bombing a meaningless strat target, compounded by the fact that there is no resistance is extremely boring to me, and not worth the effort just to bump my ranking.
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I never learned how to calibrate the level bombing site, so I just eyeball.
So for most of this tour I've been dogfighting here and there, maybe doing some gv work, some gunning, but mostly interceptions. No jabo, no airfield attacks or gv bombing. My rank stabilized in the low 900's. Then one night I was bored and didn't feel like flying a long way to find some action, so I upped some B17s, climbed to around 5,000 feet and dead-eye bombed a radar factory next to a base we had just captured. I pressed the wrong button and only my lead B17 dropped its load, and half of those landed short of the target, but I did get some hits and knocked down some buildings. I had hoped that the flashing factory would attract bandits so that I could at least shoot something, but I didn't see a single enemy aircraft. Flak took out a couple of engines but I didn't have far to go so I landed all the planes and logged for the night.
The next day my rank had jumped to the 300's. :eek:
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Exatly what targets do "mean somthing"?
HiTech
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I think the feeling is that the 'strategic' targets don't actually have a noticeable effect on gameplay. In AW, you could knock out factories that produced certain plane types, then suddenly that plane stopped being available.
If you kill a CV, that means that people can't do a naval attack on the nearby friendly base.
If you kill hangars, it knocks out fighters or bombers for a field.
But if you knock out some strategic targets.... nada.
Personally, I think that emulating the AW method directly would be simplistic, but there is potential for good gameplay here. For example, if you establish a ''front' and have strategic targets that reduce the availlability of certain vehicles/planes near the front when they are destroyed, there would be something for bombers to do and there would be reasons to put up defensive air cover.
One way this might work is that if a wave of bombers destroyed a bunch of factories near the front, the attacked country would need to use fields 25+ miles behind the front if they wanted to take off in P-51Ds and such, but older planes would still be available for instant action.
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Originally posted by hitech
Exatly what targets do "mean somthing"?
HiTech
i think what they are trying to say is that zones are transfered back and forth so much and so fast that the rebuild time (which i see really being affected) doesn't come into game play as much.
IMHO it's not a problem of design or implmentation. its the gang bang nature of the MA. a large force just steamrolls to get the zone base, destroying everything in its path. sometimes followed by a ton of resupply goons.
everyone remember the night a few weeks ago Rooks killed every strat in the MA and the result of that? troops and fuel and stuff was down for almost the whole night for the bish and knits. that night showed what hitting the "menaingless strats" does.
to pick on lazs.. somone else posted the best remark a while back. something like: if it wasn't for the "building battlers" or people trying to capture bases he'd have noone to fight.
everyone has their own way of contributing to the "war" of the MA... don't forget thats what it is... not your own personal dueling arena.
if somone like 999000 flies to bomb things in a b17 why is he less ofa player? (sry 999000 just using a well known example ;) )some in the arena might not watch or pay attention the whats going on in the background (goons making endless trips with supplies, bombers navigating hostile territory and so on)
there was a guy in the MA that all did ever was fly goons. IIRC the story went that he was an actual WWII c47 pilot.
oh well sorry to go off topic a bit but HiTech's response lit the fire of what i've been thinking lately.
lets all just shut up, fly LW, and do what we want in the MA :D.
oh well my 2¢
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Actually, the "milkrunners" are doing what the game system intented. The "new" bombsite was intended to the heavies out of the hanger/CV killing rolls. The milkers ain't the ones "gaming the game" :D.
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In my opinion, targets "mean Something" when they have a direct impact on the situation at hand, ie. Fighter Hangars at a base under siege, or an enemy CV that is launching attacks on a friendly base.
Also meaningful, but not as direct would be a vehicle base that spawns into an airfield town which we are attacking.
Although I realize Startegic targets do play into the overall war effort, they do not have enough effect to warrent their destruction.
Simply put, a country could reset another without ever touching it's strat targets. Now, it would be somewhat easier, of course, but frankly, I doubt most of the community knows the value of strat targets and their operational effect on the overall war.
Strat, in my opinion, should have much more direct effect on the operation of A/C and GV's, therefore making strat targets contested areas, which will draw bomber raids, and interceptions.
To summarize, I do no think Strat targets are meaningful because they are easily repaired, have little effect on the overall war effort, and are much to easy to devestate by greenest of bomber pilots.
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Originally posted by humble
the ranking system as a whole is pitiful and has NO real value to either game play or determining the "best" pilot. You cant engage a ground target if your flying a "fighter" hop without damaging rank. You cant up from a capped field without damaging rank (assuming you get vulched part of the time). To the best of my knowledge plane type doesnt effect rank so flying a P40 or jug is no diff than a nikki, pony la-7 at least in the "kills" portion.
...and who ever gave you the impression that the scoring system was supposed to have some value?? Scoring is there for one reason...it provides dweebs with some way to compare the sizes of their virtual male members :D. There is no scoring system that can not be manipulated. Hence, there is no scoring system that has any real value.
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The problem here, as I see it, is that the strat targets are isolated.
Put 1 or 2 AF's right next to the factories or in the middle of a city.
Also, I like the fact that there is more reward (score) for using the bombers in a more historical manner.
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Originally posted by muckmaw
In my opinion, targets "mean Something" when they have a direct impact on the situation at hand, ie. Fighter Hangars at a base under siege, or an enemy CV that is launching attacks on a friendly base.
this is a SIM we are playing right?
IRL a single hangar at a single airfiled did almost nothing to the war.
a factory that made ballberings did alot to the war.
like i stated before, its the land grab quickness of the MA that somewhat negates the effect of strats... but they still hold value. spend a whole night watching the strat in a zone and check those bases for troop availability, fuel, and ammo. i think if you really pay attention to the strat for a whole night you will see how much it really does effect the game.
oh well now thats 4¢
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I would love nothing more than to use the heavies as they were intended...to destroy Factories, and other strategic targets.
But this simple fact is, these targets are generally ingnored unless they are within 25 miles from your launch base, and use the opportunity to pad your score.
Now if strat is so important to winning the war, why don't I see bomber streams going past enemy lines, flying for hours to hit them? I see bombers do this all the time to hit the HQ. That's because this raid, if successful, will have a direct, visible effect on the MA, ie. no more dar for the enemy.
Either people like myself do not fully understand strat, or it is simply not valuable enough to warrant risking one's mission, or using one's time to hit.
Tell me how, on a night when the knights have 100 players on and the Rooks and bish have 200 each, that we can turn the tide, slow their advance, and maybe even win, by hitting strat and I promise, you'll see strat targets become contested areas overnight.
Perhaps a simple explanation (yes I've read the manual) as how to best exploit the strat system would help here, Hitech.
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Originally posted by JB73
this is a SIM we are playing right?
IRL a single hangar at a single airfiled did almost nothing to the war.
a factory that made ballberings did alot to the war.
like i stated before, its the land grab quickness of the MA that somewhat negates the effect of strats... but they still hold value. spend a whole night watching the strat in a zone and check those bases for troop availability, fuel, and ammo. i think if you really pay attention to the strat for a whole night you will see how much it really does effect the game.
oh well now thats 4¢
JB-
Please save me the effort. You probably know the answer.
Answer this question:
Your country is outnumbered 2 to 1. Your back is to the wall. How can you turn the tide, or stem the flow by attacking strat? Which targets would you hit first? What is they are resupplied before you even return to base?
I would really appreciate your insight on this, as it could change the way I play aces high.
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IMHO resupplying with goons is pretty gamy since it takes a whole lot more to get an airfield going than what a handful of goons can deliver. Same goes for the HQ.
Originally posted by JB73
a factory that made ballberings did alot to the war.
Well, hitting it didn't actually do a lot either. :) What was most damaging to Germany was that the bombing campaign tied up a lot of personnel and hardware in the west.
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Originally posted by muckmaw
JB-
Please save me the effort. You probably know the answer.
Answer this question:
Your country is outnumbered 2 to 1. Your back is to the wall. How can you turn the tide, or stem the flow by attacking strat? Which targets would you hit first? What is they are resupplied before you even return to base?
I would really appreciate your insight on this, as it could change the way I play aces high.
I'm not JB73, but I'll give you the obvious answer: Some players don't care to "turn the tide" or "stem the flow". Some of us just likes to fight (or bomb for that matter).
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Alright, but I do like to turn the tide, and know many players who would like to fly a bomber mission that will do so, which is why I've asked the question: How?
Thanks for your input, though.
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first off you have to hit the "City" strat that affects the rebuild time of all objects.
after that you hit the "grunt training"
once bothe of there are down to 25% or less kill the barracks @ a base, and watch how long it takes for it to come back up.
pizza map is the best example of this. how many times have you gone to a GV base to attack only to find there are no troops available?
stopping the enemy from having troops is the best way IMHO to stop their advance.
now the example you mentioned is an extreme (outnumbered and nowhere to start an offensive from). there are different tactics for each segemnet of the war (i DONT profess to be an expert.. just know logical tactics) during the example you gave killing an FH at a base might be a short term fix but it comes right back up in 15 min.
does it really matter what a paying customer does with his bought time anyway? after all this thread started because somone wants a better bomber rank :rolleyes:
guess that makes 6¢ now
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If you're getting low on cash 73, I'll lend you a buck. But don't spend it all in one thread. :D
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Maybe buff scoring can take to account distance traveled.
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Originally posted by GScholz
If you're getting low on cash 73, I'll lend you a buck. But don't spend it all in one thread. :D
LOL!
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I understand the value of strats and taking them out. I'll do it from time to time to pad the rank and watch the enemy suffer from long rebuild times. Better country SA would see these sites better defended. But for those not interested in learning the whole game....
I would definetly like to see what would happen if we had plane factories, if destroyed limiting either a plane type of the number of a certain plane in the air at one time (as Chairboy said). I think you would see these sites being hit and defended regularily especially if it affects the unperked, late war era planeset (the dweep plane types).
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I'de like all you girlscouts to get out of you boats, bombers and battle wagons and come fight like real men instead of stratin all over the place....air combat ya sissies:)
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take a stuka with big egg and drop on a cluster of buildings, rearm and repeat a couple of times and you will stay in top 10 for the entire tour.
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TAKE AWAY THE STRAT'S IM HAVING TO MUNC FUN GETTing A TON OF PERK'S WITH THEM:D . what we should do is make strat smaller and have more per zone and we should also add aircraft facotries as start's to now that would be fun:D that would put strat's at a "HIGHER" level of importance than we have today and also increase the down time for strat's would do the same. i find start's not even worht saving today they come back just to fast like on mon day the knight's had only 1!!!! airfield and we had our training down to 3% and 30 second's later i look again and it was up to 96%!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! now if thing's come back that fast strat is of no importance anyone else agree?
skull12
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take a stuka with big egg and drop on a cluster of buildings, rearm and repeat a couple of times and you will stay in top 10 for the entire tour
i think i might just do that:D
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But Rude, if we don't fly our bombers, then there won't be any planes maneuvering slow enough for you to shoot!
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Hmm.... you just figured this out now?
When I was flying I would game this one often...
Doesn't take too many milkruns to a facility to keep up in the ranks...
The only problem with this is, with the zones, guys would be happily milking that real close factory when oops your team just took the zone, and now your rebuild or what have you is slow because the milkers flattened the factory.
Make strat mean something!! something as simple as the old AW plane factories. Doesn't impact everyone, but it gives the buffer a feeling of having accomplished something, and forces someone to think about defending the factory.
SKurj
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The bombers should have 2 categories for rank as the fighters have. They have fighter and attack. Bombers should have Norden and Dive. I worked hard to get even fairly decent with the new bombsight but if I want to improve my ranking, I can do it faster with an A20 then a level bomber. But I don't know how I compare to others who use the Norden.
Another thing I would like to have is the ability to reload my formation on the reload pad if I get the chance to. Every time I've tried to, only 1 plane goes back up.
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I worked hard to get even fairly decent with the new bombsight but if I want to improve my ranking, I can do it faster with an A20 then a level bomber
i learn the bomb sight prefectly in 3 day's now i never miss
skull12
xskullx
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rotfl
funniest whine thread i read since month ;) WTG
all what we need is separate scoring system for each category
and listed on separated page
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Almost makes me want to learn how to calibrate the bombsite.
Or I could just keep running B17s at 5k alt and dead-eye bomb stuff and maybe shoot down all of the Spits and LA7s that come after me. :D
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Originally posted by JB73
first off you have to hit the "City" strat that affects the rebuild time of all objects.
after that you hit the "grunt training"
once bothe of there are down to 25% or less kill the barracks @ a base, and watch how long it takes for it to come back up.
pizza map is the best example of this. how many times have you gone to a GV base to attack only to find there are no troops available?
stopping the enemy from having troops is the best way IMHO to stop their advance.
now the example you mentioned is an extreme (outnumbered and nowhere to start an offensive from). there are different tactics for each segemnet of the war (i DONT profess to be an expert.. just know logical tactics) during the example you gave killing an FH at a base might be a short term fix but it comes right back up in 15 min.
Sounds good JB, but there is a HUGE problem with that. TIME.
Let's say you get 10 guys who would do this mission. To be effective and increase the chances of success, all 10 bombers (in formation) would have to go on the city strike mission. Let's say that mission takes about an hour round trip. Now those same 10 have to go to the Troop Training Camp and destroy it.. another hour. Now those 10 have to fly across all the front and second line fields to bomb troop barracks so the enemy gets no troops.
WOW.. That should take only about 3 to 4 hours to deprive the enemy of base capture ability.
Reality - 10 bombers (formations would be 30) will be lucky to make it to target and back without escort of some kind. And the hydrogen filled drones that HTC has given us allows all them fighter dweebs to wipe out half the force before they even make it to target. Probably the other half before they make it home.
If your country is outnumbered and you try this... Huh.. good luck. A gang banging country with 20 or more players than the other side could probably pull it off.
The reality of the MA large maps is just to take those same guys (obviously they have to be well organized to pull off such an undertaking, as a "mission" group of whomever joins can barley fly to the same target together, let alone actually have a plan that works) and just JaBo raid and capture airfields in line to the zone control field.
Why bother killing strat when capturing the zone control field gives you instant control over everything?
AH MA Strat is USELESS and is easly worked around
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Originally posted by Midnight
Sounds good JB, but there is a HUGE problem with that. TIME.
Let's say you get 10 guys who would do this mission. To be effective and increase the chances of success, all 10 bombers (in formation) would have to go on the city strike mission. Let's say that mission takes about an hour round trip. Now those same 10 have to go to the Troop Training Camp and destroy it.. another hour. Now those 10 have to fly across all the front and second line fields to bomb troop barracks so the enemy gets no troops.
WOW.. That should take only about 3 to 4 hours to deprive the enemy of base capture ability.
Reality - 10 bombers (formations would be 30) will be lucky to make it to target and back without escort of some kind. And the hydrogen filled drones that HTC has given us allows all them fighter dweebs to wipe out half the force before they even make it to target. Probably the other half before they make it home.
If your country is outnumbered and you try this... Huh.. good luck. A gang banging country with 20 or more players than the other side could probably pull it off.
The reality of the MA large maps is just to take those same guys (obviously they have to be well organized to pull off such an undertaking, as a "mission" group of whomever joins can barley fly to the same target together, let alone actually have a plan that works) and just JaBo raid and capture airfields in line to the zone control field.
Why bother killing strat when capturing the zone control field gives you instant control over everything?
AH MA Strat is USELESS and is easly worked around
why not send 2 bombers to each one at the same time?
all you really need to wipe a strat down to 25% is 3 stukas or 2 ju88 formations. 1 way trip is about 15 min for a sector. so that cuts it to 15-30 min from the start of the mission that both strats are down to 25% or less.
also only need basically 4 willing pilots to get the strats to this situation. i think you are thinking about an HQ raid where you need 19000 lbs. a strat is not defended as much so you dont need the massive escorts either.
then the Jabo raids are free to kill barracks at will... they will stay down for a good long time.
try again young grasshopper ;)
up to 8¢ now.... GS where's that dollar? i need to make rent.
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Originally posted by gofaster
Almost makes me want to learn how to calibrate the bombsite.
Or I could just keep running B17s at 5k alt and dead-eye bomb stuff and maybe shoot down all of the Spits and LA7s that come after me. :D
I never learned how to use the bombsite either til about 2 tours ago. Just didnt really appeal to me. One day i decided to take b-26's up and basically self taught myself with some helpful advice from squaddies. Its so easy once you know how to do it.
I find most important thing is keeping speed level, calibrate on something on the ground before target too.
Im no bomber dweeb tho so there are probably many more people who could give u some better advice than me!
:)
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Originally posted by JB73
why not send 2 bombers to each one at the same time?
all you really need to wipe a strat down to 25% is 3 stukas or 2 ju88 formations. 1 way trip is about 15 min for a sector. so that cuts it to 15-30 min from the start of the mission that both strats are down to 25% or less.
also only need basically 4 willing pilots to get the strats to this situation. i think you are thinking about an HQ raid where you need 19000 lbs. a strat is not defended as much so you dont need the massive escorts either.
then the Jabo raids are free to kill barracks at will... they will stay down for a good long time.
try again young grasshopper ;)
up to 8¢ now.... GS where's that dollar? i need to make rent.
He's actually right. I tried this last night. Her's what happened.
First off, you're going to be flying more than 2 sectors. We found a base, after much searching, that was at a decent start alt, was 4.5 grids from the enemy city and Fuel depot.
Step one: Up fighters, to clear out enemies attacking launch base. Time: 20 minutes.
Step 2: Load up 4 flights of B-17's and launch from 6k base that does not have a mountain at the end of the runway
Step 3: Climb out, head to target
Step 4:Form up, level out, give out tgt assignments
Step 5: Rally point: 2 flights head for Fuel Depot, 2 flights head for City
Step 6: Calibrate, Drop
Step 7: RTB
Results: All bombers survived, as we met with 0 resistance. Apparently the bish felt the strat targets were not worth defending...and they were right. My group bombed the city, with 3 of 4 salvos successful (each salvo was 8 500lb bombs). Total damage to city: 50% destroyed. Analysis: 1 more flight of 17's necessary to be effective
Group 2 attacked the refinery. 1 Bomber flight mistyped his delay, and dropped entire salvo in a small area. Second salvo was perfect. Total damage to refinery 30%. Conclusion: 4 bomber flights needed to be sure of success.
Final conclusion:
After my experience last night, I would recommend to be sure a Strat target is destroyed, a strike group should consist of 4 flights of b-17s or equivalent, with the 4 th flight being a clean-up/reserve.
The mission lasted apprx. 2 hours from launch to landing.
In order for this type of strat to succeed, a strat mission should coincide with a JABO strike on the airfields in the zone of the Strat strike.
Bottom line: This type of mission takes planning, excellent timing, and more than anything else, a fairly large group of dedicated people, to accomplish the mission.
The same group can simply up jabos, and pork and capture the zone base, and spend the second hour drinking in the pub.
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I think you were just lucky, muck.
Sure, if you run into no resistance, 2 bomber formations is all you need to kill a factory. But what happens if those 2 bomber formations happen to run into a pair of 190-A8s or a pack of N1K dweebs? Yes... chances are those bombers will be slaughtered and now your mission is a failure.
As you said muck, the strat targets were undefended - they mean nothing, so why bother defending them?
The zone control concept screws up the whole thing also - If you killed all the factories in a zone and then captured the zone control field.. guess what - you now own a bunch of factories that are not resupplying your fields - how messed up is that?
The whole thing is stupid anyway. At some point HTC will just announce a strat system that doesn't do anything to the arena situation either. With all the discussions about how strats could work, it's a shame we still are playing air-quake
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Midnight-
Agreed, but we were not lucky, as the mission was a failure.
Sure we hit the target, but to have ANY effect, the city has to be at 25% or less, and the Depot would have to be less. we were able to do neither with 6 bombers (2 flights) at each location.
In order to do the job right, you need 4 flights of bombers (12 planes) per target. 2 as primary bombers, and 2 as clean/up secondary bombers to be used if one of the main is shot down.
Bottom line is this sort of attack requires to much effort for too little reward. Coordination of the attack is very difficult, and the timing must be perfect to make it even worthwhile.
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Im no bomber dweeb tho so there are probably many more people who could give u some better advice than me!
<--------big time bomber dweeb got over 50 kill's in the b17 on both my accounts put together
skull12
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I guess it would, if rank and perk points were the reason you played.
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Originally posted by B17Skull12
i learn the bomb sight prefectly in 3 day's now i never miss
skull12
xskullx
The norden system works well...provided, of course, your controllers don't spike. Mine do, which makes it nearly impossible to acurately calibrate the sight. It isn't a great lose to the game though...since I sucked at bombing anyway :)
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Increase the size of the town at each airfield by like 4x then bombers will have something to do that contributes to the "effort" while reducing the scoring penalty.
But yeah, scoring is wierd as heck. Some guy that refuels a stuka to milkrun a strat behind friendly lines is a better "bomber" than the guy who resupplies the fuel at an embattled front line base (resupply sorties actually reduce your rank in the per sortie stats).
P.S. (Neither of these things are "bombing" in my book - but they are in AH.)
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be interesting if there were no cities, just factory's.