Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Kekule on August 03, 2003, 02:46:42 AM
-
Greetings all
WBer here, who is new to AH since the big "duel".
I've had my butt handed to me in Ki-61 vs Spit IX. The spit can out climb, out run, and, apparently, out turn the Ki-61. I can understand the out climb and out run, but out turn?
I'd like to see data on this matchup, turn rates in particular, I can not seem to find this set of numbers in my (limited) number of IJAAF books.
Any help would be appreciated!
(P.S. not saying it is wrong that spit IX can out turn Ki-61, just have not seen any data that shows one way or the other... if it jives with "real life" numbers, then it is no wonder why there are so many spit dweebs. :p)
Kekule
WB: 18th Sentai
-
Hehe a P-38L in here can out turn a Ki-61 too.
Ack-Ack
-
the tony *can* outturn a spit until it gets vertical then the tony's underpowered airframe just butterflys and the spit has the power to go up and come back down for the shot. i'd say it kind of boils down to the pilot for the first few turns.
the ki-61 is a nice ride and goes downhill very well, but top-end and "power" is somewhat lacking. plus the guns are hard to hit with (but they do damage) and the cannon (120 rds per gun*2) has the fastest ROF of all ah cannons from what i read.
-
Originally posted by Kekule
Greetings all
WBer here, who is new to AH since the big "duel".
I've had my butt handed to me in Ki-61 vs Spit IX. The spit can out climb, out run, and, apparently, out turn the Ki-61. I can understand the out climb and out run, but out turn?
I'd like to see data on this matchup, turn rates in particular, I can not seem to find this set of numbers in my (limited) number of IJAAF books.
Any help would be appreciated!
(P.S. not saying it is wrong that spit IX can out turn Ki-61, just have not seen any data that shows one way or the other... if it jives with "real life" numbers, then it is no wonder why there are so many spit dweebs. :p)
Kekule
WB: 18th Sentai
You thought it was Aces High? It's actually called Spitfire High......
-
Overview from Soda's pages..
A rare aircraft to see in general play, the Ki-61 doesn't really have any type of consistent following. Nothing really stands out in terms of aircraft performance though so that is probably why it is the least common IJN plane to see. The lack of any one positive attribute is also probably the reason the Ki-61 remains a little obscure, but possibly it could also be a bit of a hidden treasure. The Ki-61 does have a couple of things going for it overall in high speed handling, stability and firepower, which I believe a lot of people don't realize.
Ki-61-I-KAIc
Engine Performance
The Ki-61 is a low-medium altitude fighter and the engine performs best below 15K. Cruise speed at sea-level is only 305mph (313mph with WEP), increasing by a linear rate ( increasing by about 3.5mph/1,000ft of altitude gain) up to a maximum of 357mph at 14.5K. WEP adds about 8mph at most altitudes up to 14K. Speed obviously is not much of an asset and a bit of a liability to the Ki-61. Climb rate is also pretty poor, 2,900ft/minute at sea-level, decreasing sharply when over 13K. Acceleration tends to be equally, or more, disappointing and the Ki-61 tends to feel quick sluggish, even in a dive. Fuel range is 37 minutes on internal with the option to extend that by 26 minutes with a pair of drop tanks. Releasing a drop tank immediately and only packing one is often a good plan to extend range and not hurt cruise performance too much, although be sure to drop your other tank and adjust your trim before entering battle.
Firepower
Firepower on the Ki-61 is strong, with a pair of wing mounted 12.7mm machineguns and a set of twin 20mm cowl mounted cannons. This is opposite to the layout of most packages and is one of the strongest assets of the Ki-61. The important cannons, being mounted near the centerline, don't have convergence problems at any range though the ballistics tend to be a little different and take some time to get used to. The wing mounted machineguns offer a decent secondary weapon. Ammunition provided includes 250 rounds/gun for the 12.7mm and 120 rounds/gun for the 20mm cannons. This is not overwhelming but sufficient and about average. Snapshots, deflection, and crossing shots are all pretty acceptable though you need to ration your ammunition a bit. Unusually, since the cannons are cowl mounted, the Head-On of the Ki-61 is quite dangerous. Most planes have wing mounted cannons so the true firepower in a Head-On is likely to only be effective at closer ranges, while in the Ki-61 the cannons fire almost in parallel and thus if you get a feel for the cannons you can fire at longer ranges. I wouldn't recommend taking Head-Ons in the Ki-61 though, it is not a very tough plane and tends to take damage poorly.
Maneuverability
Maneuverability in the Ki-61 is not fantastic. The roll rate is very nice at almost any speed, and the turn rate is decent down to 200mph but not slower. The plane really seems to struggle at low or very high speeds for turn rate. At low speeds (200mph) it tends to become very heavy and have problems maintaining a good turn rate, though this is likely because of the lack of horsepower and about average weight (~7,600lbs). Sustained turn-fights are not terribly good. At high speeds (450mph+), the plane handles about average and really doesn't stand out. Top speed in a dive is about 500mph since the plane becomes quite heavy above this speed and difficult to control. By 550mph handling is poor and by 575mph the Ki-61 is almost unrecoverable. Roll rate is very good though, right up to the unrecoverable point.
Flying the Ki-61
The Ki-61 is really a BnZ'r that should leave the fight early if things appear to not be going it's way. It has such poor acceleration and climb that any sort of energy fight is unlikely to be successful. An average turn-rate at low speeds spells trouble against any of the advanced turners (Spit or N1K). The best speeds to fight are between 300 and 500mph. The cannons and heavy machineguns should provide a good snapshot capability for knocking out enemy planes with only quick bursts. Enter the fight slightly above the crowd and make diving passes on opponents. Don't get into chasing people as most will be able to easily out-distance you and it might draw you away from friendly help. You are likely to be faced with a number of opponents who can turn about the same or better than you, have equal or better speed, or both. Thus the basic requirement for an altitude and energy advantage to begin with. Look to pick off one plane at a time, then re-establish your energy, and go after another.
Defensively, the Ki-61 can be a slippery target and with the good roll rate you may be able to force overshoots. You will typically have to trade altitude for speed so you can defend but don't give up altitude too quickly. If you sink all the way to sea-level you are going to be at your worst performance altitude for top speed and have little in the way of defensively options. Use scissors to get people out-infront of you since the Ki-61 tends to roll well and turn at least average, good attributes for scissors. If you manage to create an overshoot you have enough firepower to finish the job quickly. Try and extend your fight if defensive and drag enemy planes towards friendly support if you can. Speed is key, keep it as high as you can maintain since that buys you time and makes you a tougher target.
Fighting the Ki-61
The Ki-61 can be very dangerous since it has more than enough firepower to knock you out quickly. They tend to arrive at medium altitudes and will be looking for lower opponents. One key can be to make yourself an unattractive opponent by staying out of diving range of the Ki-61, either through horizontal or vertical separation. A good Ki driver is not likely to squander a whole lot of altitude in order to get only 1 kill. A poor one may, but you can use that to your advantage too.
Offensively, drive the Ki low and try to keep him from building any energy back. The Ki really struggles to build energy since it is such a poor climber and accelerator. That means that constant pressure will require the Ki to either lose speed, or trade off altitude to maintain speed. The Ki also gets worse and worse as it gets lower and usually can't survive very long at sea-level. Look to land hits whenever possible, even if small calibre, since the Ki is not very tough and seems to take engine damage easily. BnZ from above and there is little chance the Ki can come up after you and will likely be driven down after each pass. Slashing attacks can also be very successful although you need to worry about the Ki turning to face you and trying to Head-On attack you. Don't accept Head-On attacks from Ki's, it's just too dangerous.
Defensively, try and simply speed away. Most aircraft hold a serious speed advantage against an Ki-61 so simply try and extend away. If you have altitude and a Ki above you, enter a shallow dive to build up speed. If the Ki dives on you, use that speed to defeat his guns pass and then continue to extend away from him. If you manage to avoid only 1-2 passes you have likely drained a lot of his energy reserves and may have build up more separation than he can close. The Ki is so slow that it should not be too difficult to escape unless you are also in a slow plane. Don't let the Ki get good quality close in shots, or fly in straight lines away from one thinking you are outside of cannon range. Ki's tend to be pretty desperate and will take shots at almost any range or angle where there is even the slightest hope of success.
Shanes evaluation is spot on. There IS a small contingent of 61 pilots here that are quite dangerous, tho it is uncommon to see one.
Have you tried the zero's yet ??
Go here:
http://www.icongrp.com/~stagemon/ah/
Mitsu's sound pack, Soda's A/C pages and tons of stuff..
Ya old goat..
-
Nothing really stands out in terms of aircraft performance though so that is probably why it is the least common IJN plane to see.
*sigh* I am a nit picker, and I'll always point this out...
The Ki-61 is not an IJN aircraft. Kinda like saying the P-51 is a USN fighter. :eek:
As far as turning ability, I only have WB to compare this with (as if either WB or AH has the FMs spot on. ;) )
The WB Ki-61 is a different model, being the Ki-61-Ib. The KAIc does take a performance hit due the cannons and different wing structure (strengthened to be able to carry bombs, etc.)
In WB, the Ib can out turn the Spit IX.
Here is a wing loading comparison between the Ib and KAIc:
Ki-61-Ib: 147.5 kg/m^2
Ki-61-KAIc: 173.5 kg/m^2
Though wing loading is not the end-all data point for turning ability, the difference between the two 61 models is significant. And so it seems reasonable (maybe hehe) that the Spit IX can out manuever the Ki-61-KAIc in AH. I'll still hunt around for more performance numbers. Some of the books I have are written in Kanji, but the pictures are pretty. :)
With more Ki-61 stick time, I am hoping to be able to smack down spit IXs on a regular basis. DTAS!
Kekule
18th Sentai
-
There are some inaccuracies in the Ki61 modeling in AH, like how in AH you can turn to the right easily at high speed. In real life, the Tony had a tough time turning to the right at high speed, that's why it was recommended to US pilots to use that in escaping from the Tony if necessary. This is something I haven't seen effect the Ki61 in AH.
Here's a section on the Ki-61 written by Maj. Thomas McGuire on how to escape from a Tony.
An in-line fighter like our P-40’s the TONY is not an altitude fighter but makes up for this by being faster than the ZEKE in level flight and extremely fast in a dive. A successful evasive tactic against this plane is, if in a dive, to make a diving turn to the right. At high
speeds the TONY handles very poorly to the right and the Japanese pilot has trouble turning in that direction. If you are pursued from the rear and on the level, a very high-speed, shallow climb will keep you out of the range and eventually you will draw way.
One pilot found out about this the hard way. He was returning from a strike at Wewak when he was jumped by three TONYS. He
was at 20,000 feet at the time and went into a shallow dive which ended up on the dock one hundred miles farther south, with the TONYS right behind him. Forced to alter his tactics, the pilot began a high-speed, shallow climb and soon lost them. His was the original experience of this sort with the TONY and his pioneerings saved many from falling into the same error.
If you are on the deck, a very sharp turn to the right at high-speed, may do as an emergency maneuver, but it is definitely a last resort and at best will only keep the enemy pilot from holding his lead on you.
SOURCE (http://www.hispanicvista.com/assets/ctinswpa.pdf)
(http://www.hispanicvista.com/assets/479th_shield.jpg)
Ack-Ack
479th FG - Riddle's Raiders
-
When the Tony stalls, it ALWAYS wants to roll left.
-
Wasn't that a characteristic of all Japanese planes, or any plane for that matter with torque to the left?
I wonder how just how bad the torque was in Japanese planes. McGuire also wrote a section in his manual on the tactics of Japanese pilots and he said that almost all Japanese pilots faced would always break to the left. I wonder if this was because the torque was so bad that it made breaking to the right difficult.
Another reason why I fly the EZ-mode, no torque P-38L.
Ack-Ack
-
My first kill in the Ki-61 was a Spitfire Mk IX.
I remember some verticle in there, forcing him to blow his shot and then capitalizing on it.
Wish I could be more specific.
-
Spitfire IX pilots are usually predictable. When they see something coming up behind them, they immediately go into a high vertical loop pulling back on the stick as much as possible. This makes it very easy to anticipate their maneuver and shoot them down, particularly in a Ki-61. You simply make a pass but plan your trajectory to pass on top of them and wait for the Spitfire to pull up into your gunsights. Use your high ROF to do a snapshot, hopefully on the engine or cockpit area. The cannons are in the nose, so convergence isn't an issue.
Once you see him fly above your gunsight, go into a lag turn loop but level at the top of your loop. The Spit will most likely start his downward turn and try to loop back up. If you go nose-down, there's a very likely possibility that you'll pack more speed than him and overshoot the loop. As you both keep looping, the Spit will get the advantage. So, you make one pass, hit the Spit as it pulls up, then you go up, level, and wait at the top for the Spit to come up to you where he's going slower as he gets closer to you.
If he doesn't pull back up, just stay on top of him and plan your next run. Think of the Ki-61 as a bobsled with guns. It runs very well but only downhill.
-
Back in Tour 39 I played around with the KI.61 a bit and managed a 2.6 K/D ratio by getting 21 kills and dying 8 times.
It's kinda my "go to" plane when I get tired of dyin' in the FW.190A5.
If I can get kills with the KI.61 then it must be a dweebery plane :D
-
Tony has no real advantage to exploit vs the Spit IX. Handling is equal at best (I'd give edge to the spit) and the Spit has significant climb/acceleration advantage. That being said the only real advantage you have is your disadvantage you bleed e faster. If in pursuit I've found getting off gas can give me a shot early if spitty isnt careful...if I'm on defensive a chop and hard turn can set up a scissor opportunity. If you have some alt you can play a bit since you can dive to reload E...but once you get down to the deck the spitty will own you. All in all not a good match up for the Tony.
-
I like the Tony. Its a fun plane shoot down. Almost as much as the 2 Zekes, the Val and Kate.
-math
(certified blue plane dweeb)
-
^^
The Macho Man shows up, one for every thread. :) Sounds like you don't look for much of a challenge (Vals and Kates? lol), but at least you don't fly a spit. :cool:
For everyone else, thanks for the discussion. I'm starting to get the hang of the FM a bit.
ack-ack, I prefer to start my break turns to the right (in Ki-61), assuming I have enough E.
Kekule
WB: 18th Sentai
-
Originally posted by Kekule
^^
The Macho Man shows up, one for every thread. :) Sounds like you don't look for much of a challenge (Vals and Kates? lol), but at least you don't fly a spit. :cool:
Kekule
WB: 18th Sentai
Oh yeah, I only vulch, hunt goons, and kill chutes along with the rice paper planes.
-
I've found that the clown-tailed Ki will cut a herd quite nicely. Maybe its the paint job or the perceived "easy kill" of the plane, but I've succeeded in luring a few pilots away from the safety of their herd by doing a high-speed pass through the group and extending out to see how many follow me, then hit WEP and do a gentle climb to get some workable altitude. I think the red tail does something to the Spit pilots, like sending them into a berzerker rage or something, because it seems that they hardly ever refuse a meal of Ki-tail.
Of course, you have to do fast work on getting your kill, because pretty soon the rest of the herd will be coming up on you, responding to the bleeting cries of your prey.
-
Originally posted by Kekule
ack-ack, I prefer to start my break turns to the right (in Ki-61), assuming I have enough E.
Kekule
WB: 18th Sentai
Hopefully with the revised flight model in AH2, it will be more difficult for the Ki-61 to make right turns at high speed, just like it was in RL.
Ack-Ack
-
Welcome to AH, Kekule!!
About the only thing I know about the Tony is that it seems extremely fragile. I am personally convinced that it takes more .50 rounds to knock down a Zeke than a Tony. Along that line, the Tony's tail seems particularly vulnerable. I'm pretty conservative w/ my ammo, so fighting Tony's a good deal for me. One lil poke at the tail usually results in the Tony tail and the rest of the plane falling in seperate pieces.
GL in the skies of AH.
-
How about mid-range speeds ack-ack. At higher speeds there shouldn't be a need to break-turn.
The 61-Ib in WBs locks up at high speeds, makes for a nice lawn-dart. :)
Kekule
WB: 18th Sentai
-
Originally posted by Kekule
How about mid-range speeds ack-ack. At higher speeds there shouldn't be a need to break-turn.
The 61-Ib in WBs locks up at high speeds, makes for a nice lawn-dart. :)
Kekule
WB: 18th Sentai
From what I've read, at mid-ranges it was quite maneuverable. So much so that at first, the US pilots thought it was a bf109 with Japanese markings and even some US pilot swore it was a C.202.
Ack-Ack
-
The largest advantage of the Ki-61 is people don't face them often and don't know what to do with them. They immediately associate "uncommon" with easy kill, which the Ki-61 isn't always. I think the Spit IX pretty much dominates in every performance category though, maybe not rolling quite as well at mid-high speeds. Most Spit drivers though always try and pull lead like crazy and can be forced into terrible overshoots with the Ki. Issue is though, hispanos... the Spit has them and can tear a Ki to piece is seconds. That said, if the Spit falls infront of the Ki at short range, the Ki can tear up the Spit easily too.
the Ki isn't a beginners plane but it isn't a total dog either. Flown with a little patience and some altitude it can knock down anything out there, the problem is avoiding all the higher powered planes that can pin down a Ki and then simply out-perform it.
-
Originally posted by Soda
the Ki isn't a beginners plane but it isn't a total dog either. Flown with a little patience and some altitude it can knock down anything out there, the problem is avoiding all the higher powered planes that can pin down a Ki and then simply out-perform it.
I can see why US pilots thought the Ki-61 was either a bf109 or a C.202 when they first enountered them. At least to me, the Tony does perform very similiar to the bf109F and the C.202.
Ack-Ack
-
Agreed Ack-Ack... it does feel the same in many ways. People also tend to throw it into the category of the C205 (which is clearly a better performance aircraft) which isn't fair. The Ki can be dangerous though, it has twin cowl 20mm and a 12.7mm in each wing, that's plenty of firepower if not for the crummy ballistics. People get so used to hispanos/.50's that they forget how to shoot anything else. Guys coming over from other LW, VVS or IJ planes though know how to fire cruddy guns and land hits can do serious damage.
Big thing against the Ki though is to fight uphill against it. It so terrible in acceleration and climb rate that fighting uphill will kill it. A Spit IX is so good uphill like that it would own a Ki.
I flew a Ki one sortie last tour, picked up a kill on a Yak9U, La7 and 190D9... none of them had respect for me and didn't simply out-speed/out-climb me... they hung around way too long until I could land a couple of hits on them. Got lucky, knocked out an engine on one, picked off the other in a crossing shot, then dropped in and used dive speed to catch an La7 for an auger. The Ki isn't great, it isn't even good, but it can be dangerous.
-
Very informative thread. From now on, no excuse for getting shot down in a Ki-61 (I wish).
-
Originally posted by Kekule
How about mid-range speeds ack-ack. At higher speeds there shouldn't be a need to break-turn.
The 61-Ib in WBs locks up at high speeds, makes for a nice lawn-dart. :)
Kekule
WB: 18th Sentai
I flew the Ki-61 for a bit last night. I got it up to around 400-425 ias and suffered some compression, but not nearly as much as in a P-38 or P-51B or 109G10. I was able to maintain good control at that speed.
I did notice that the Ki-61's climb rate dropped way off around 20k or so, but in the MA if you're at 20k then you're either at co-alt or above most of the other planes you'll be fighting.
The nose-mounted cannons came in handy since convergence wasn't an issue. I had just as much success killing a P-38 at less than d100 as I did a Me-110 with a snapshot at d400 (cockpit shot).
If you go straight down in the Ki-61, you should chop throttle and remember to pull out before you get going too fast (same as with a P51B, P38, or 109G6 and G10).
At mid-range speeds, the Ki-61 is surprisingly maneuverable and seemed to be able to outturn F6Fs and P-38s at 200 to 300 ias. The only time I let my airspeed drop below 200 was when I was landing.
In all, I had a wonderful time in the Ki-61 last night and got 7 kills in 2 flights with only 1 death (inadvertantly HO merge with an LA-7 because a connection was acting up). The first 3 were on a Lancaster formation at 15k alt, then after getting a fresh plane (pilot wound in last one) I chased down a P-38, turn-fought a F6F, turn-fought a 110, and chased down a 190D at low alt. I was setting up a turn on the LA-7 when the warp occurred and I lost my tail to a no-ping HO.
-
My experience with the Ki-61 is that it is a very dangerous fighter as long as you manage your energy carefully.
Accleration can be described as leisurely at best, so care must be exercised not to waste energy by hard turning in close proximity to enemy hordes.
Climb is adequate in WEP, but very much sub-par in military power.
Turn rate is excellent until you grind down your speed, where it falls off to barely above average. Very simlar to the P-40E in that regard, although the Ki-61 has somewhat better stall behavior than the Curtiss.
I fly the Ki-61 a bit just about every other tour. Combined results for the last 3 tours that I did fly it are 80/5, with one lost to a collision, another lost to an auger, one very beat-up Ki-61 lost to Ack-Ack's P-38 (even though I was maneuvering with a pilot wound, I'm still amazed that he pulled off that shot! WTG Ack-Ack!) and two others I have no record of (I usually record sorties or take note of who, what and how I lose any aircraft).
Like any of the slower fighters, the Ki-61 requires good SA and judgement to survive in an MA full of late-war speed demons. Nonetheless, as Apache aptly pointed out some time ago, the Ki-61 is a true "point and click killer" due to the remarkable lethality of its guns.
As the stats indicate, the Ki-61 generates better than a 1/1 KD in the MA, with 1.08/1 in tour 42, and 1.35/1 in tour 37. Those are very respectable numbers considering the level of performance of the Tony and that of most of the opposition.
My regards,
Widewing
-
Originally posted by Widewing
(I usually record sorties or take note of who, what and how I lose any aircraft).
Does that mean you have something like the following recorded somewhere:
F4U-4 (insert kill list), landed, killed by a 75mm HE round from 3km by Karnak while braking.
Followed by:
TBM-3, killed one Panzer IV H (Karnak) with a 2,000lb bomb, landed?
:D
-
I flew the K161 lately and had some success. In one instance I took off and flew towards a typical tailchase with a spit towing three or four of my countrymen. I cruised up, joined in and caught the spit with a neat deflection shot, turned around headed back to base catching another spit on the way back and landed with two kills in a five minute sortie. After a couple of more sorties like that I realised I was onto something. You do need a bit of altitude to make it pay but it works very well. But I don't think it's one for the furballers. I only used when the MA is fairly quiet not on a busy Saturday night.
I think you really need to use it when you have the advantage of height and surprise and don't stick around to battle it out as it's too delicate like most Japanese aircraft.
-
cpxxx is onto something, alright.
You will need a bit of height in order to hang with the late-war rides in the MA, so you'll want to take the Ki-61 up to around 10k or 15k altitude or more before you look to engage any enemy. The Ki-61 likes to run downhill, so only engage a higher enemy if you're packing 300ias or more and can get a shot before your airspeed drops below 200ias.
I use the Ki-61 alot during the peak usage hours, and it can really stuff an enemy's advance, even if you're outnumbered, but you should (a) know how you're going to get out of the fight (i.e. run away!) and (b) stay within range of friendlies. If you're going to run away, then you should stay above 10k so you'll have enough slope to dive away.
Last night my Ki-61 was able to chase down an F4U Corsair, force it to go evasive, then outturn it and knock off its tail. Then I chased a Mustang around in a high-speed pursuit, followed it through its vertical maneuvers, and popped it when it pulled up into a high climbing turn. I have to give the 'stang driver credit - if he had kept his nose down, he could've pulled away from me but he wanted to mix it up a bit and that's always admirable.
Next came a 190D from above me. I put my nose down to get some maneuvering speed, then barrell-rolled and forced the FW to overshoot. I followed the FW up into its turn as it looped around over the top and popped it at the apex of its turn.
I chased an LA-7 around on the deck and got within d500 before he got smart and used a combination of turns and throttle to outdistance me.
Finally I was bounced by a Spitfire Mk V as I returned to base. The Spit V played to its strength - turning - but at the cost of losing its airspeed. I went around with it for a turn in lag pursuit but realized I couldn't get inside of it, so I went nose-down and got some separation, acting as the drag for my countryman who jumped on the Spit's tail. When the Spit went evasive with its turns again, I came back around and peppered it with machine gun rounds (I was down to 58 cannon rounds and didn't want to risk wasting them on a too-close snap-shot), sending it into the sea. I was a bit surprised that I could shoot down a Spit with just two machine guns. Something to keep in mind!
-
We had some really good Ki-61 Vs. F6F and F4U-1 fights during the "Combat Air Patrol" event a few weeks back. In that event, wich was geared towards Amphibious Assaults (keeping the fights fairly low) the Ki-61 had a nearly even K/D vs. theses two US fighters.
Before discovering how much fun the Yak was, I started learning the Hein, and was pleased with the results. As has been mentioned, you want to keep some alt, and you need to keep your speed up, and remeber that you arn't going to be able to run from too many things.
-Sik
-
So last night I actually found a Spitfire IX alone at 10k alt on its way to a base-capture furball a sector over. I was in a Ki-61 at 20k and engaged him in a running gunbattle.
I dove down, he split-S'd away and I pulled up. Rinse and repeat a few times (I was trying to keep my speed up and some air under my feet) and he eventually pulls away from me. We meet again just offshore at co-alt (I'm down to 15k and he's up to 15k) and the fight is on!
Like most Spitfire IX fights, it begins to devolve into a series of loops as each of us tries to pull a lead turn on the other, accomplishing nothing but a series of near head-on snapshots. After the 3rd or 4th turn, he split-S'd down while I looped up. Ah-ha! Separation and I have alt advantage! So down I go as he comes back up.
Unfortunately, as I'm going down I'm also gaining speed, and as he's coming up he's losing speed, which allows him to get his nose around on me before I can get mine around on him and he knocks off my wing. However, my cannons are in my nose, not my wing, so as we pass through each other I manage to land a few shells in his engine.
As I'm hanging in my chute, I see him limp off towards his base to try to save his plane. The way I see it, he got the kill but I got the victory. I kept a Spit IX from engaging my team and bagging multiple kills, and he got very few perk points for his trouble.
The next flight I bagged a FW190D and a N1K2 on the deck and landed them for 22 perk points, so I figure out of two flights I went 2 kills, 1 death, and 1 got away wounded.
-
The way I see it, he got the kill but I got the victory.
Err... no, not really.
Shot down people got no rights to 'victory'. Hellllooo~ "Shot down" equals "I lost the fight"..? :D No matter how much they'd like to think otherwise.... ;)
That's why engaging Spits in inferior planes are often classic cases of "it's the plane, not the pilot" I'll bet the guy you've engaged would have been dead within 20 seconds of the engagement, had he been in a same Ki-61, like you.
The only thing that led him to victory is the plane.
Probably that's why people hate Spitfires - some planes actually make crappy pilots perform a lot better. And sometimes, crossing the margin in performance differences with skill alone, is something that's just not possible.
Frankly, if a Spitfire pilot even remotely knows basics of ACM, I don't think there's any chance a Ki-61 can beat a Spit9, no matter how adept the pilot is.
-
Frankly, if a Spitfire pilot even remotely knows basics of ACM, I don't think there's any chance a Ki-61 can beat a Spit9, no matter how adept the pilot is.
Which makes shooting spitfires down that much more satisfying. :)
Kekule
WB: 18th Sentai
-
So far Kek your riding a 5/1 K/D versus those furballin Spit IX meanies..
Check nomies site out. Good info, easy interface.
http://www.innomi.com/ahkillstats/personalstats.php?
-
kekulesan :)
welcome to AH i hope you will stay
atleast for some time
will look for a uber Ki61 in the skies
and then ill up a spit and kill you :p
-
Sorry for the slight change of topic, but...
I'm curious to know why some people find it necessary to (constantly) post their prowess and stats in this or that fighter in almost every and any thread possible?
Do they feel their identy as being a great stick is not being discussed often enough? And therefore need to self promote themselves and results to gain reputation within the community?
...-Gixer
-Hells Angels-
-
Do they feel their identy as being a great stick is not being discussed often enough? And therefore need to self promote themselves and results to gain reputation within the community?
Yes.
-
Originally posted by Gixer
Do they feel their identy as being a great stick is not being discussed often enough? And therefore need to self promote themselves and results to gain reputation within the community?
I wish people would discuss my prowess in the Ki-61 at least twice a day; once here and once in the O'Club, just so I would feel validated.
:cool:
-
The Ki 61 isn't a terrible plane, but if you're going to fly IJ, why bother with it. A6M5b and N1K are so much better. They have actual advantages whereas the Ki 61 does not.
If your a really good pilit, you can beat a less skilled opponent in it, but all things being equal, the Ki 61 is outclassed by so many planes it would be easier to list the ones that don't outclass it like C47's and P40b's.
-
The Ki-61 is a great plane to fly.. but only if the enemy has no idea just how many weaknesses it has.
Mostly, I just like to shoot them down.
MiniD
-
najdorf,
I choose not to fly the N1K because it is too easy to do well in. If I wanted an uber ride I'd fly a spitfire or Pony or N1K or (insert 1945 plane here.)
The A6M5 is an IJN plane, I'm more of an IJAAF pilot.
I like the Ki-61 because, well, just because. If AH had a Ki-43, I'd fly that as well. (And I'd sneak in a Ki-84 sortie now and then even though it is uber :))
The point is not to fly the best plane available, but to do the best that you can flying the plane that you like.
Kekule
WB: 18th Sentai
-
I understand what you're saying. The problem is, unless you catch someone really napping, the Ki61 is real hard to get good results in. You don't have to be better, you have to be much better.
One other thing, the uberness of the N1k is overated IMO. Strong guns with slow rate of fire and bad ballistics. No top end speed, can be outturned by zekes, hurris, f4f, fm2 and spit v.
-
I'm not afraid of anyone. :)
Nor am I afraid to die. :cool:
Kekule
WB: 18th Sentai
-
I was not suggesting fear of other pilits. My post was intended to address your opening inquiry of Ki61 v. Spit 9. I was just pointing out that in AH, Ki61 is pretty much a dog that is greatly outclassed by many planes. I am not suggesting you have to fly the best plane to be competitive or that should be anyone's practice.
-
Originally posted by najdorf
The Ki 61 isn't a terrible plane, but if you're going to fly IJ, why bother with it. A6M5b and N1K are so much better. They have actual advantages whereas the Ki 61 does not.
To be honest, I think the Ki-61 is superior to the A6M5b as far as speed, guns, and survivability go. At the typical MA chase speeds of 350 ias the A6M5 becomes a handful and needs a lot of rudder input to get it to roll. On the other hand the Ki-61 seems to be able to handle the speed a bit better. It also accellerates in a dive better than the A6M5, giving it a nice run-down/run-away capability. Having the cannons in the nose of the Ki gives it a zero-convergence advantage in snapshots.
On the other hand, the A6M5 can turn a tighter loop and can stay inside a Spit IX pretty easily.
Still, I'd be more afraid of the Ki-61 than I would the A6M5b.
-
Er, I'd rather take the A6M5.
Knowing the gunnery on most people, in an A6M5, I think I can go in circles and stay alive long enough until help arrives.. The only thing that will take care of the low and slow and turning A6M5, is the A6M2.
But in a Ki-61, heaven help me if I ever get caught up by a SpitV or a IX.