Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Urchin on August 03, 2003, 09:37:14 PM
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Hehehe... plane plane plane plane here.
OK, 80% plane, 20% pilot.
I think the plane is far more important than the pilot- and I'd be willing to bet a 'scientific' study would back my point of view on it.
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81% Pilot
4% Plane
10% Environment
15% Ergonomics
9% Instruments
Ummm, is that 100 yet?
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You forgot the beer quotient
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The pilot. A plane doesn't fly itself.
Ack-Ack
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I think flying nekkid makes the biggest difference. All else is suprifilous.
MiniD
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also need to shave your body, reduce drag
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Plane matters, but pilot by far.
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Depends on the pilot and the plane... :)
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Between two very good pilots.... "The Plane"
Between two very bad pilots...... "The Luck"
Between one of each above....... "The Pilot"
But that doesn't matter Urchin, this does.... for the typical Aces High MA Scenario:
1 Decent Pilot vs 8 Spits and 4 Lala's... "The Dweeb Horde"
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Plane. If it wasn't the MA would be more diversified.
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Plane.
Individual differences may seem drastic when you look at someone next to you, but on a large scale, ultimately, people are all so and so average, and the few talented, above everyone else, are as mentioned, too few to make any difference.
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Pilot.
Doesn't help with a superior plane if u don't know how to take avantage of it. :cool:
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When it is uninterrupted 1v1 and both pilots are beyond "I am good at flight sims" then it is upto the plane performance, speed and climb in particular. Comparing it in any other environment seems pointless to me.
2 duels I remember from CK beta, one against a P-51 pilot called "spot" and another against Zeke pilot called "mili". In both duels I flew the Fw 190. Spot went on to run me out of fuel after first merge or so. Mili died after losing all his alt, trying to avoid my BnZ, on the deck.
Neither duel showed none of that fancy ACM crap on the "winners" part. Just brutal use of plane's speed advantage over the other.
// fats
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Plane. A pilot does not have wings.
If the pilot, then why would we have bothered developing the planes we have today - Tomcat/Hornet/Strike Eagle/Tornado/Harrier etc. If it was only the pilot that mattered, we could still be using Spitfires.
In games like these, the pilot is important too. But what is more important is communication and co-ordination - and a plan. Sadly lacking in the AH MA, where the name of the game is to fly the fastest plane with best armament/ord, and attack en masse, cause maximum porkage, auger and re-up.
I used to run streaks well into the 20s in WB when I flew with the Scanian Griffins - a very well organised squad flying 190s. Here, you can be surrounded by 10 friendlies and not get a 6-call.
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You used to run streaks well into the 20s in WB when you flew with the Scanian Griffins ?
WOW!
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Originally posted by Creamo
You used to run streaks well into the 20s in WB when you flew with the Scanian Griffins ?
WOW!
Yes, Creamo. And without particularly trying - they just sort of happened. And didn't have to be in a large group. 2-3 (-rudu-, -sach- and me) was enough to make a formidable team. Only ever got killed once, and screwed up once (prop strike). The keys were organisation and communication. Those count for a lot. Saw my k/d plunge when I started AH!
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
The pilot. A plane doesn't fly itself.
Ack-Ack
BUt a pilot has poor aerodynamics ;)
Plane.
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Pilot.
Or as Tumor put it, in the MA, it's the Dweeb Horde.
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Originally posted by beet1e
Plane. A pilot does not have wings.
A plane doesn't have a brain, it only does what the pilot tells it to do.
But in a case where the pilots are of equal skill, then the difference between the planes increase in importance. Usually in those cases though, the pilot that makes the first mistake is the one that dies, at least this is the case in 1v1 fights. In the MA, who usually wins or dies is up to who's the one with the bigger horde flying with them.
ack-ack
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.. don't fly in there enough anymore but
in CT, where the planes are matched as best as possible, I think its the pilot more than the plane ... the bullets help too :)
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Between two of the same plane type, the pilot.
Even amongst different planes, the pilot will still make the biggest difference.
There are some exceptions...Zeke vs C-47...stuff like that:)
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The plane is a pilot multipier.
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Never anything but the pilot. The plane ,whether yours or thiers , has strengths and weakness's that only He or She can manipulate to there advantage.
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Urchin ... your "subject" had the word BORING in it, so my response is ...
Its the PILOT !!! thats BORING !!!
No matter what type of plane you are in, its the opposing pilot that is BORING !!! ... and this runs rampant in the MA.
One lame-prettythang HO pass and then they run like a little girl afraid of the boogey man. Once joined by 1 or 2 of the countrymen, then they choose to re-engage ... makes me want ta puke !!!
Why is it that people are so afraid to mix it up ? Yes the outcome could be that you die (virtually) but at least you got into a fight and maybe you learned something from the fight ... win or lose.
It seems to me that every fight I get into, I learn something or something that I already learned is reinforced. If more pilots in the MA had a set of balls, things would not be so BORING most of the time.
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All wrong, it's the map!!
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That's easy. If I kill him it's the pilot. If I die, it's the plane.
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i'm suprised no one mentioned the obvious...
it's the pc/connection combo.
other than that... i 0wNZ J00 4LL!!
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The plane - visit CT for a few setups where the plane type is regulated and you will see.
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
The pilot. A plane doesn't fly itself.
Ack-Ack
If that were true, the Ki-61 would be flown as much as the Spitfire IX.
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If more pilots in the MA had a set of balls, things would not be so BORING most of the time.
I agree wholeheartedly with Slap!
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Originally posted by Zanth
The plane - visit CT for a few setups where the plane type is regulated and you will see.
bzzzzzttttt i'll have to agree with eagler on this, in the CT it's very rarely totally lopsided in terms of matchups... and it boils down, discounting #'s, to the guy behind the stick.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
Why is it that people are so afraid to mix it up ? Yes the outcome could be that you die (virtually) but at least you got into a fight and maybe you learned something from the fight ... win or lose.
If more pilots in the MA had a set of balls, things would not be so BORING most of the time.
but, but..... there's a war on, son!! this is no time to be hotdogging!!
:p
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lol , you are all wrong
amno load!!! :)
ramzey
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Damn...you are bored Urchin.
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plane or pilot......
none....
its the opportunity that presents itself that counts.....
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Pilot.
Although some planes breed success with mistake ridden flying.
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Originally posted by Shane
but, but..... there's a war on, son!! this is no time to be hotdogging!!
:p
LOL ... Where have you been hiding ?!?!?!?!?
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If someone is in an IL2 and a La7 comes along, God himself could be at the controls but that LA7 is likely going to kill the IL2. Unless the LA7 it a complete idiot (granted there is a 50/50 chance of that).
So of course it is the plane.
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Originally posted by Zanth
Unless the LA7 it a complete idiot (granted there is a 50/50 chance of that).
ROFL!
Thanks for that! Made my whole day. :D:D:D
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Actually you forgot the most important...numbers.
I'll fight anyone in any plane 1 vs 1 and do OK (not win but have a fun fight) but in the MA numbers are 75% of the equation. It's the 3rd or 4th guy in that usually kills me. That being said there are certainly exceptions like Fester Lev shane Drex etc that seem to consistantly survive and win against the numbers. But thats the exception not the rule.
The plane is second since you cant beat a superior plane flown to its strengths from an equal position. A hurricane will never beat a well flown tempest for example.
Now a superior pilot can often beat a superior plane IF the "poor" pilot is aggresive.
The last part of the equation is initial position/advantage...if the superior pilot has E/position he can usually kill the superior plane before it can use its strengths to escape.
S0
Numbers 75%
Plane 20%
Pilot 4%
Luck 1%
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With inexperienced pilots:
99% plane, 1% pilot
With very very good pilots:
10% plane, 90% pilot.
A small caveat for the 2nd condition. In any 2 unequal aircraft matches, both aircraft usually have some advantage over the other which can be exploited (i.e. one is faster and the other turns better). In a few cases (such as an La-7 vs a corsair) the better aircraft has almost no exploitable weaknesses against a given opponent. That kind of matchup reduces the value of pilot skill.
Look at the kill stats for tour 40 for a player named Urchin. If the thread author's premise was correct, those kill stats could not exist.
Hooligan
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It all depends on the relative performance of the planes involved. The more of a performance advantage a plane has, it allows its pilot a chance to recover from a mistake. As the sherlocks in this thread have pointed out, an La-7 vs an Il-2 (or Goon, or Stuka, or Val, etc.) is going to result in an Il-2 digging a hole in the ground.
The closer the performance between the planes, the more pilot skill comes into play. Pee Fiddy Run vs. El Gay Seben will be a closer fight and the better pilot should win, regardless of which plane they are in.
There is no hard and fast ratio that can be determined. As a graph, it would look something like this:
(http://home.earthlink.net/~mathmanahs/planepilot.JPG)
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Math Nerd! Math Nerd! Math Nerd!
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Originally posted by SOB
Math Nerd! Math Nerd! Math Nerd!
Oh crap, did I just have one of those "mental episodes" again?
drink more alcohol before visiting the boards
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Originally posted by gofaster
If that were true, the Ki-61 would be flown as much as the Spitfire IX.
Just because a plane gets flown more than another plane doesn't automatically mean the plane is the deciding factor in shooting down another plane. From your post in another thread, you posted an example of a tactic you use against Spitfires in the Ki-61. From that post, it clearly shows that while in an inferior plane, you had the advantage because you were the better pilot.
The Spitfire Mk IX and later models are pretty much better planes than the P-38 but yet I still average 5-1 kill ratio over them. If the main factor that decides the outcome of a fight is the plane, I'd have a 1-5 kill average instead.
Ack-Ack
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Originally posted by Zanth
If someone is in an IL2 and a La7 comes along, God himself could be at the controls but that LA7 is likely going to kill the IL2. Unless the LA7 it a complete idiot (granted there is a 50/50 chance of that).
So of course it is the plane.
That bf109G-6 pilot I shot down last night in an IL2 might disagree that it's the plane.
But if you're going to use an example to prove your point, you should use a fighter vs. fighter matchup and not an attack plane not designed for dogfighting vs. fighter.
Maybe someone should post that film of Drex in a Ju88 shooting down 6 fighters. That should pretty much end the arguement.
Ack-Ack
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You guys sure do like simple answers.
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Maybe someone should post that film of Drex in a Ju88 shooting down 6 fighters. That should pretty much end the arguement.
6 fighters? I havent heard of this one, the only movie i know of Drex in a Ju88 is when he fought Tac.. And it looked mighty fine :D
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Originally posted by WldThing
6 fighters? I havent heard of this one, the only movie i know of Drex in a Ju88 is when he fought Tac.. And it looked mighty fine :D
It's on the BK's website ... Nopoop use to have a link in his sig, but he seems to have removed it.
Lev just published a film of 10 kills in his Spit V ... very good too.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
It's on the BK's website ... Nopoop use to have a link in his sig, but he seems to have removed it.
Lev just published a film of 10 kills in his Spit V ... very good too.
Ahh cool
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Well it must be the plane, mostly. My old friend AKAK says I suck,(I think I said he sucks too, but I didn't mean it!) but I had a 20-1 kill ratio against the dreaded spit9 last tour in my pony.
As much as I hear everyone tell me how lousy/mediocre I am, it's definitely got to be the plane.
Steve
Hiya AKAK ol buddy.
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Alright, I was doing some poking around in the scores. Folks who think the pilot is a bigger factor than the plane, explain this for me.
Granted, this is the beginning of a tour, and not the complete thing, but I think the trend will hold through.
From Tour 39 to Tour 40:
K/D up 60%
K/S up 20%
K/T up 34%
Hit% up 54%
Same pilot, he just switched planes so far this tour. It's easy to tell the variable, since the only plane he's flown this tour is the La-7, according to his stats.
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The thing you leave out is the pilot's abilities. Is he an average pilot, below average, above average, etc.
ack-ack
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Dont forget the love of a good sheep too.......
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An average pilot will be average in any plane, an above average pilot would be above average in any plane, true?
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Originally posted by Urchin
Same pilot, he just switched planes so far this tour. It's easy to tell the variable, since the only plane he's flown this tour is the La-7, according to his stats.
I think this is a good example of how important the airplane really is in the arena. With a fast plane like the La-7 (sub P-51D, Tiffie, Yak-9U, Dora, G10 etc) a large pecentage of the aircraft in the arena stop being a threat if you fly conservatively. A 10v10 multi-bogey furball often goes from being a desperate struggle that taxes your SA to being a simple matter of maintaining an E advantage on the 3 enemies in the area who can actually run you down. It seems like field caps that actually work at supressing the fighters always have a high number of fast E-fighters. Without them it's pretty easy for someone to take off in an La-7 (or similar), sneak out from under the cap and come back with a big E advantage to turn the tables.
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The mistake you "Its the plane" guys are making is that you think us "Its the pilot" guys are saying the plane doesn't matter.
Of course the plane matters. If you take Billy Bob out of his grandpappy's P-40E and stick him in an La-7 all of his numbers will go up because the La-7 is faster (higher K/T and K/D) and still has good guns.
But if Billy Bob, in his new La-7, runs into me (let alone something horrifying like Fester, Lev or Drex) in a Spitfire Mk I he stands a better than even chance of dying despite his vastly better ride.
Tour 42:
Karnak has 4 kills and has been killed 3 times in the Spitfire Mk I against the La-7.
The plane matters, but it is the pilot's skill that is multiplying the plane's effectivenss.
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And the mistake "it's the pilot" folks make, is they tend to look at this matter on a very very individual and incidental level - comparing one individual against another single individual, in one engagement.
The chances of one Billy Bob in a La-7 meeting a Karnak, or a Drex or a Levi in a SpitI, is practically nerf, compared to the chances he would meet another Billy Bob.
The mediocre and average, rule the world.
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Maybe someone should post that film of Drex in a Ju88 shooting down 6 fighters.Ack-Ack
Crap! I was hoping nobody saw that.... I think one was me.:o
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The plane factors heavily into the mix, however, I agree with Urchin that success or failure in a given situation is dictated more by pilot ability and less by airframe.
In WW2, no two were exactly alike yet there were Aces on both sides.... How?!?!? Pilot ability is why.
A P40 in the hands of an ace versus a novice in a LA7... My money's on the Ace. He knows his plane's strengths and weakness, and his enemy's... He will exploit both.
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Kweassa,
Yes, but if Billy Bob runs into another Billy Bob, that completely throws out the question of whether it is the pilot or the plane.
If you are looking at it from that perspective why ask the question? The answer can only be one thing.
If the question being asked is, as you seem to contend, actually "When two average pilots fight, is the pilot or the plane the determining factor?" then of course the plane will be the determining factor. That very question removes the pilot from the equasion by insisting that we use two average pilots in our theoretical test case.
Pilot skill only comes into the question when we consider the specific pilots and the phrasing of the original question "Plane or Pilot?" demands that we do just that.
Obviously Karnak in an La-7 vs Karnak in a Spitfire Mk I or Fester in an A6M2 vs Fester in a P-38L doesn't tell us squat about anything except that some planes are obviously better than others. There is no question when that assumption is made.
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Originally posted by BigMax
The plane factors heavily into the mix, however, I agree with Urchin that success or failure in a given situation is dictated more by pilot ability and less by airframe.
His arguement is the opposite.
ack-ack
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Not at all, Karnak.
It is merely about the usual odds in an environment which the conditions are random. The battle field is random, and yet, still has some probabilities being higher than others.
You can't determine who you are going to fight, in what circumstances. (...actually, if you have a better plane, THAT will allow you to determine those circumstances. The pilot, cannot do that. Only the plane can do that.)
In that sense, the probability of meeting a pilot with skills that would overcome initial disadvantage in plane or tactical condition is is almost unlikely. Meeting them is like playing the lottery. In a mixed up lotto-world of AH, usually the numbers will be for "Billy Bob", almost never "Drex" or "Leviathan" or "Fester".
Also, the probability of the average "me" in this game, being a pilot skillful enough to overcome advantages, is also very low. How many of us mediocre guys fly out there on the battling skies thinking "I know I'm better than most"?
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So what happens? Everybody knows they are Billy Bob. They also know the odds are, they will meet another Billy Bob. So, that would probably mean neither I, nor him, would be skillful enough.
What is the most reasonable solution to gain advantage in this conflict?
a) learn more skill. So I am confident in any plane
b) get a better plane
Compared to solution b), solution a) is way too unstable. You can't measure your skill in numbers or units. Everything is always relative, and even if you practice a lot, you still can meet a genuine Drex or Levi or Fester or Karnak flying atound. Also, no matter how skilled you are, a sudden change of pace can lead to your doom.
Soooo.. the reasonable answer, is simple.
1) Me Billy Bob, will be killed anyway, if I ever meet a genuine Drex/Fester/Levi/Karn in a good plane.. but if I am in a hot-rod plane, at least I can run away if for any chance those Drex/Fester/Levi/Karns are not in a speed demon.
2) Besides, me Billy Bob, has significant advantage over enemy Billy Bobs who aren't using a good plane.
3) So, if enemy Billy Bob also rides in a good plane, at least the odds are 50:50. If enemy Billy Bob comes out in a sucky plane, the odds are for me. If I go out in a sucky plane, the odds are overwhelmingly against me.
4) The most reasonable solution with quick results - plane. Not the pilot.
Now, imagine a war full of Billy Bobs on both sides. Yup. Planes make more difference than Pilots. (but in that situation, numbers make more difference than both Planes and Pilots combined.. but that is for another equation..)
Of course, in a limited environment with limited conditions.. for instance, the CT with few people, planes with generally equal performance.. then, the pilot factor suddenly becomes very important. But only in those situations.
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It's the pilot. I've found myself completely outmatched by people like DMF or Lephturn on engagements where I felt I had either an advantage, a superior aircraft, or both.
"The guy who wins is the guy who makes the fewer gross mistakes." -LT Jim "Huck" Harris, USN
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Well at least we know that both pilot and plane are neccesary for getting a kill. This is a good subject to debate but one that will not allow you to create some factual formula on aircombat. People can name why a certain plane is better with statistical data. This climbs at such and such, and this at 250mph will do a 180 in this many seconds(btw if you find yourself looking at the gauges during a fight your missing the boat. :) ) We know what the planes are good at, so lets instead break down what makes up pilot ability. When you start talking about the pilot and you mention SA and Energy Managment then start to break those down. By the time you see how important the pilot is you will have one hell of a training manual.
Urchin,
For now I'll go with your percentages of what determines a
fight, but can I add a little chaos to your numbers. I say the pilot can boost his probability of getting a kill in a lesser performing aircraft at any given moment, if he reacts faster and with less gross mistakes to the geometry that is unfolding before him.
Drex
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60% Pilot
40% Plane
For average pilots and planes...
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I'm enjoying this thread! Urchin, thanks for starting it. :)
The "it's the pilot folks" aren't wrong, but I think they focus on the relative handful of aces, and it's when one of these is around that their argument (<-- note correct spelling akak) applies. There are some aces, but there is a whole swathe of billy-bobs.
Much depends on organisation/working together as a team. The 1v1 scenarios are hypothetical at best. How many times have you killed someone, maybe gloated a bit, and had them challenge you to a bout in the DA? WW2 was not about 1v1. In the RL BoB, the RAF was stuffed full of billy-bobs, some with only a few hours experience and who had never been taught to shoot. On the other hand, the Germans had more experienced pilots, and arguably superior planes - Me109 against our Spit Mk1. And yet the Germans still lost. Why? They had only enough fuel for about 10-15 minutes over England. As they ran home, many were shot from behind, and couldn't turn to fight because of their fuel shortage. I'm just pointing out that there is a plethora of other factors at work other than pilot skill.
I am an average Joe in AH. Judging speeds/distances from pixel sized images on a computer screen does not sit well with middle aged eyesight, with or without glasses, as you young jocks will find out soon enough. I prefer to be working with a team on field capture. I refuse to fly the Big Three (or is it Big Four?) just to make it easy for myself. Many of my kills come from whacking a guy who is attacking one of my friends - I catch him off guard.
Kweassa and Zanth are right, and their theories are borne out by my own stats from last tour. I was killed twice by an LA7, but I killed 16 LA7s. I'm not an expert at killing LA7s, and the reason I got so many is because there are so many around. Why? Because they are perceived to have many advantages, in an arena stuffed full of billy-bobs. In this case, Kweassa's and Zanth's theories overlap.
So maybe it IS the pilot - but in an environment stuffed full of billy-bobs, "it's the pilot" applies only about 0.5% of the time, in a pure and contrived set of circumstances. The rest of the time (99.5%) it's the plane.
I'm still chuckling about Zanth's remarks. Funniest thing I ever read on this board. Had to add a quote to my sig! :D
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I think that it's a combination of the two... and that it's not an either/or question. Er... What exactly is the question Urchin? I double checked your post and it's pretty vague. Can you fashion it into an actual question and put it into context? Impossible to answer as is, I reckon.
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It's the gun pack.
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If it is my plane, then it is pilot. If it is other guy plane, it is obviously plane, you damn stupid Niki HO crowed clowns!
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Wasn't really a question, per se. I left it rather open to interpretation, I suppose the simplest way to rephrase the original post would be to say "what is the bigger factor- plane or pilot?" Granted, there are different sets of circumstances, and in a lot of cases numbers is the single biggest factor, but I was just curious to see what everyone thought.
I think the pilot does play some role in the equation, but I personally think the plane he is in is far more important.
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Originally posted by Urchin
I think the pilot does play some role in the equation, but I personally think the plane he is in is far more important.
In the case of planes like Yak9U, 99% is the plane. With planes like P40, 99% is the pilot.
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Im so bored i dont care anymore :D
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Pilot
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So how would we break down pilot skill? My own feeling right at this moment is that there are probably 4 distinct areas that make up pilot skill.
SA - this one has been brought up a ton of times. Besides just seeing the enemies around you, this also includes judging their E states. I think this also includes keeping track of WHO is flying the various planes you are fighting (identifying and prioritizing threats beyond aircraft type and E state).
Discipline - to me this describes a pilots ability to follow a few simple rules. Try to attack from a position of advantage, keep your speed up, don't throw away all you altitude for one enemy if there are more in the area. Basically the more disciplined you are the more you'll follow Hartman's rule - See, Decide, Attack, Break.
BFM/ACM - Do you feel confident that you have your moves down going into a nose to nose pass? Understand one circle vs. two circle? Can you go from defensive to offensive using a rolling scissors? That's what this is all about.
Stick ability/Aircraft knowledge - I seperate this from ACM because there is a difference in my mind between knowing what you want to do, and being able to pull it off. Also I throw in aircraft knowledge, because of flap useage, stall characteristics etc. If you are familiar with your ride, it will improve your abilities here.
What do you guys think?
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I have to go with Pilot...
Why? Well he has the choice of what plane to fly. So if he is out for a sure fire victory, He is bound to take a Hot plane. Or if he wishes a greater challange he takes an early war ride.
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None of the above!!
It's the computer hardware and ping!
Sheesh!
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Urchin - It's the pilot you moron! But pilots fall into four categories here in AH.
Dweebs - You get dweebs flying Spit's Niks and La-7's. They die a lot. But they kill a lot too. Flying skills of a turnip.
Quaker - the bigger the furball, the more fun. They love to get in on 10 vs 1, 20 vs 20, 1 vs 20. Don't care but they fly what they like.
Shark - they hide in dweeb or weak planes and amass hundreds of kills by luring in the snipers, quakers, and dweebs. Excellent pilots. Busher, Laz, and others fall into that category.
Wolf - the hard core pilot. Usually fly Luftwaffe or late American aircraft (Bf-109, Fw-190, P-51/47/38). They hate dweebs, quakers, and sharks, but they snipe - go in hot, get the kill, get out. Mostly energy fighters. They rarely fly alone and hunt in packs. And if hunting in packs, they kill a lot. Beware killing a wolf pilot, his friends will hunt for you.