Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Ack-Ack on August 04, 2003, 03:29:07 AM
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The Cloverleaf maneuver, done properly can give the P-38 the edge it needs to defeat superior turning planes like the Spitfire.
Now as with any tactic or maneuver, it's not a 100% guaranteed to work but it might just give you that much needed edge if you're caught in a low speed situation.
Here's an example of the cloverleaf in action. This is the brief story of the famous duel between Lowell in a P-38H vs. a Spitfire XV.
During the late winter of 1944 ocurred the famous dual between a
Griffon-engined Spitfire XV and a P-38H of the 364FG. Col. Lowell few the P-38, engaging the Spitfire at 5,000 ft. in a head-on pass. Lowell was able to get on the Spitfire's tail and stay there no matter what the Spitfire pilot did. Although the Spitfire could execute a tighter turning circle than the P-38, Lowell was able to use the P-38's excellent stall characteristics to repeatedly pull inside the Spit's turn radius and ride the stall, then back off outside the Spit's turn, pick up speed and cut back in again in what he called a "cloverleaf" maneuver. After 20 minutes of this, at 1,000 ft. altitude, the Spit tried a Spit-S (at a 30-degree angle, not vertically down). Lowell stayed with the Spit through the maneuver, although his P-38 almost hit the ground. After that the Spitfire pilot broke off the engagement and flew home. This contest was witnessed by 75 pilots on the ground.
Here's another example of the maneuver being used.
It was not a common maneuver, but a sort of last ditch hole card. Gerry Johnson, ops exec of the 49FG used it to break contact with a Ki-44 he was in a rough one-on-one with on a mission to the oil refineries of the DEI in the fall of 1944. As he told it, he had fought the Tojo from 24,000 ft. down to the deck, where it had latched onto his tail. He didn't dare straighten out and try to run, because it was too close. He couldn't dive. He was forced to try to out-turn it because he didn't have anything else to try. He started clover-leafing and, to his great relief, the Tojo was unable to stay with him and broke off contact, whereupon Johnson, master fighter pilot that he was, turned the tables on the Tojo and shot him down.
Here's the description of the maneuver.
The cloverleaf was a horizontal maneuver that took advantage of the P-38's exceptionally gentle stall characteristics. It was a low-speed maneuver. The pilot would tighten his turn until he actually stalled out, ease off and let the plane unstall itself, then tighten back up into a stall, ease up....
Viewed from above, the pattern the airplane flew through the air looked something like a cloverleaf, and this simile was used in teaching the maneuver.
You can also use High Yo-Yo's to do the maneuver instead of keeping it on the horizontal plane.
Next will be Part II - More P-38 vs. Spitfire Tactics.
Ack-Ack
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I don't get it.
what will stalling and recovering achive that riding the stall edge won't?
Bozon
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films! films!
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Good read akak, I think I use this quite often in the P38 but Im not sure.
FBsmokey
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Originally posted by Eagler
films! films!
Yes .. I agree ... do you have a film that shows this .. from that description, I am having a hard time visualizing it.
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I learned to drain the left aux tank first before trying any low-speed stall maneuvers in the P-38.
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I kind of visualize it but I'm not certain...I had a couple great 1vs 1's with dr7 over weekend...he was in a spitIX and I was in an La-5. Fight was basically in the vertical with me taking fight up trying to roll over on him then avoiding his counter and shot and repeating....anyway it sounds like he was doing exactly what your describing but in a climbing spiral...he'd pull up hard to edge of stall...then fall off and then pull up. It seemed like he was able to gain significant ground on me with these "mini-zooms". At the time I assumed the spit had better climb/e retention than La-5 but I'm beginning to believe that "loading & unloading" somehow provides better E retention.
Would love film ack-ack
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Originally posted by gofaster
I learned to drain the left aux tank first before trying any low-speed stall maneuvers in the P-38.
It's been my experience it really doesn't matter which fuel tank you drain first in the P-38. That's why I always leave the auto-fuel thing alone.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by bozon
I don't get it.
what will stalling and recovering achive that riding the stall edge won't?
Bozon
Hope this answers your question.
According to Lowell, it was simply a turn that ended up looking like a cloverleaf. You pulled as hard and tight as you could into your opponent, forcing him to do the same. You released pressure on the yoke when the P-38 mushed out of the turn approaching stall. When you gained speed again, you pulled again. You rode the edge until you broke your oppenent down to a stall and killed him, or forced him to bug out. It took advantage of the zero net torque of the P-38. One way your single engine opponent couldn't turn as tight, and the other way he was more likely to break down into a stall and spin out. You could add a vertical element to it, but it was not necessarily a vertical move.
Savage
So just riding the edge of the stall would still allow the Spitfire to stay inside your turns and eventually shoot you down. The object of the maneuver is to try to get the Spitfire to stall out. Remember that in a stall fighting situation, the edge goes to the P-38 because of it's gentle stall characteristics.
Ack-Ack
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I think I got it .. its like 2 horizontal figure 8s alternating between the two patterns.
Excuse my artistic abilities using my trackpoint mouse ...
(http://pages.cthome.net/crzn22/Misc/cloverleaf.bmp)
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That's pretty much what it should look like if you're viewing it from above.
I do have at least 5 or 6 films where I use that maneuver but unfortunately I never renamed them and no longer remember which file number they are. And with over 800 films I've made, it's going to be kind of hard to go through them all to find those films. I guess I'm going to have to drag one of my squadmates to the TA so we can film it again.
Anyway, thanks for making that
Ack-Ack
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4 leaf clover eh? :)
think if it ain't an ack-ack or a hand full of other lightning pilots - the spit wins
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ah my bad havnt done that one, done more of a vertical half clover leaf lol. I dont understand how that would work though, ya think the spit would get the shot when you went strait for then next turn. maybe not in RL but with AH gunnery you would die
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You're not leveling out in the turns, you're easing up on the stick to recover from the stall. If the maneuver is done correctly, at the time you're easing up on the turn to recover, the Spitfire himself is either in a stall or near the stall that he can't get a shot. The objective is to force him into a stall and spin out or make him bug out and surrender the advantage. This maneuver takes advantage of the having no torque in the P-38 and using the torque against the Spitfire. The Spitfire also runs the risk of its turns widening because of its ability to gain E quickly. The Spitfire pilot really has to excercise throttle control to keep it from happening. Which is just one more thing a P-38 pilot can take advantage of in a stall fight.
You can use the maneuver both vertically or horizontal. When doing in the vertical, your turns become High Yo Yos and you stall out as you come over the top and gain speed coming down to go back and do another High Yo Yo. This also takes advantage of the P-38s excellent nose down turning ability. I myself try to do it this way.
Remember that these aren't sure fire tactics, it's a last ditch effort if you unavoidably find yourself in a turn fight situation against a Spitfire.
Ack-Ack
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Flaps???
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Flaps and rudder a definitely needed for the maneuver. There would be no way that you'd be able to maneuver at such a slow speed without them.
Ack-Ack
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The important question is:
Why was a P-38 pilot dueling a Spit pilot in WWII?
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For a couple of cases of beer.
ack-ack
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LOL AKAK
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Which direction of turn does the Spit's torque cause him to stall out quicker ?
What about other planes?
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Technically, everytime the P-38 would 'ease out' in the turn, the Spit would have a chance to roll 180, turn into the P-38 and force it into either a flat scissors or a rolling scissors fight, if what I am picturing is correct.
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The problem is Kweassa is that the Spitfire is also on the edge of a stall or in a stall. I think it would be hard for him to do just that. If you read the account of the duel with Lowell, the Spitfire tried to use a Split-S to escape but Lowell managed to stay on his tail and force the Spitfire to exit the fight and fly home.
In a stall fight situation, the edge goes to the P-38.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by MOSQ
Which direction of turn does the Spit's torque cause him to stall out quicker ?
What about other planes?
I'm pretty sure that the torque is to the left. As for the other planes, I think most of them are to the left with the exception of the Soviet planes.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Kweassa
Technically, everytime the P-38 would 'ease out' in the turn, the Spit would have a chance to roll 180, turn into the P-38 and force it into either a flat scissors or a rolling scissors fight, if what I am picturing is correct.
I too did not understand the drawing at first.
In Slapshot's drawing he's drawing two 8 figures and I think this is NOT what ack-ack was describing.
here's ack-ack's description:
The pilot would tighten his turn until he actually stalled out, ease off and let the plane unstall itself, then tighten back up into a stall, ease up....
It should have been only left handed turns. So after drawing the top circle (stall 1 point) he eases and fly to what is marked as "stall 3", pull left again drawing the right circle. Then the bottom and then the left circle.
but it could be that I got it completly wrong.
Bozon
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Originally posted by bozon
I too did not understand the drawing at first.
In Slapshot's drawing he's drawing two 8 figures and I think this is NOT what ack-ack was describing.
here's ack-ack's description:
It should have been only left handed turns. So after drawing the top circle (stall 1 point) he eases and fly to what is marked as "stall 3", pull left again drawing the right circle. Then the bottom and then the left circle.
but it could be that I got it completly wrong.
Bozon
The diagram that Slapshot posted is what the maneuver would look like if viewed from above. If done correctly, it's supposed to resemble a clover-leaf.
ack-ack
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yes it would resemble a cloverleaf, but not if you reverse the turn (turning to the left, then to the right) like Slapshot drew it. If you reverse the turns you'll be drawing something like an 8 figure.
If I read the quotation correctly, and in order to draw a cloverleaf and not figure 8, it's always turning to the same side.
Bozon
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the "cloverleaf' as described is a turn in one direction varying the radius of the turn so that instead of a constant circle u have a 'cloverleaf' pattern . Pinch in 4 equal distant spots around a circle and you get the pattern. Not the figure 8 drawings previously posted.
This move doesn't outturn the other plane but keeps the 38 in the other planes rear quarter with the hopes of forcing the other plane to bug out. The 38 lead turns to stall within the spits turn radius, then relaxes turn to overshoot spits 6, than pulls hard to get inside radius..stall.. relax again .. repeat. I can imagine it would work better in real life (we don't hear of the dead cloverleafs btw) And it only works in a stall fight. I wouldn't try it much in AH. The 38 in AH doesn't have a 'ride the stall' advantage over the spit.
If you want to be a 38 killa in AH, focus on the when and where to use 2 notchs of flaps.
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Bozon you are correct, the view from above would be a clover leaf with all left turns if the turns are each 270 degrees, followed by a small straight. If the the turns are each 180 degrees, you get a nice oval.
Slapshot's drawing would require a 180 degree roll in the straight area between turns 1 and 2, also between 3 and 4, which is not what is described.
FYI, I tested a 38 and a Spit IX in the training arena. I don't believe a well flown Spit would have any problem shooting you down. A P-38 pretty much goes to mush, unable to pull more than 1.1 or 1.2 G's at about 105 mph. However the Spit could get down to around 82-85MPH before it too went to mush at 1.1 to 1.2 G's. I also had no problem with nasty stall characteristics in either plane.
Note the described fight is with a Spit XV, Griffon engine. I'm sure a Spit XV with the Griffon engine would have nasty stall characteristics. The Griffon was huge engine with tons more torque than a Merlin.
From:http://www.home.aone.net.au/shack_one/rolls.htm
"Shoehorning the Griffon into a relatively light single engined aircraft such as the Spitfire created some handling difficulties primarily due to the enormous torque reaction which could amount to a very significant 4,700 pounds feet at take-off power. Designing a gear reduction unit for a contra rotating propeller turned out to the definitive answer after various aerodynamic attempts such as enlarged vertical stabilizer area only presented partial solutions. Contra rotating props were essential for the Navy version of the Griffon Spitfire, known as the Seafire due to the extremely hazardous nature of carrier landings particularly during a go-around when maximum power needed to be applied at low altitude and low air speed. Torque reaction pulled a Griffon Spitfire with a single prop to the right, towards the carrier island, obviously a very s situation.
Spitfire XII's were the first recipient of the Griffon powered by the Mk. III or IV variants with single stage, two speed supercharging. A number of subsequent Spitfires retained Merlin power but towards the end of Spitfire production all were powered by Griffons. Starting with the Spitfire XIV, two-stage, two-speed intercooled, aftercooled superchargers became standard, all of which were 60 series engines."
I will flight test our Spit XIV.
On the other hand, after an hour of this stall practice flying, I went into the MA and found myslef in a very low alt turn fight with a Seafire, I was in a YAK9-T, a supposedly poor low speed manouvering plane. I've been flying the 9-T a lot , and had in fact just been practicing it on the stall edge after testing the P-38 and Spit IX.
I dropped all flaps, went to half left rudder, 3/4 nose up trim and flew the cloverleaf as described. The 9-T mushes out at about 102-05 MPH doing this, so that's where I straightened out for just a second or two.
The Seafire tried to follow, but after two circles apparently got scared of stalling at only 200 ft and split away. I followed but he turned around for an HO, which my 37MM quickly dispatched him to the tower in a mid air explosion.
So the bottom line is it's 90% pilot, 10% plane. But the 10% plane is a huge advantage if both pilots are able to fly on the edge of the stall equally well. The Seafire should and could have turned inside me if he had more practice flying the stall edge.
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Bozon you are correct, the view from above would be a clover leaf with all left turns if the turns are each 270 degrees, followed by a small straight. If the the turns are each 180 degrees, you get a nice oval.
Slapshot's drawing would require a 180 degree roll in the straight area between turns 1 and 2, also between 3 and 4, which is not what is described.
Ok ... I think I see it now ... hows this ?
(http://pages.cthome.net/crzn22/Misc/cloverleaf.bmp)
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Originally posted by Virage
The 38 in AH doesn't have a 'ride the stall' advantage over the spit.
Yes it does.
Ack-Ack
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I still don't get it.
All it sounds like, and judging by the drawings, is just an alternation between lead pursuit and lag pursuit. If a Spit9, would just turn hard in one direction, it might work, but against an AH Spit9, with the pilot pulling max AoA possible in the tightest radius... I doubt if the P-38 would pull more than two 'leaves'.
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Or, against an AH Spit14, now that would make sense.
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I dunno.. I think I'll need to see a film to undestand this one.
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MOSQ,
I grew up in West Linn.
DJ229 - AIR MAFIA
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Daverino,
I tried to email you but that's turned off. I have the same interests you do ( windsurfing, beach bum) but alas I can't quite pull that off yet.
Do you ever come back to sail the gorge ?
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I am reasonably certain everything torques left except the typhoon and tempest.
Interesting manuever Ack-Ack.
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MOSQ,
Haven't been to Oregon for couple years but my Dad and brother still live in West Linn. It is just too hard too tear myself away from paradise. BTW also getting into kiteboarding now.
DJ
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I would think any amount of vertical component would end up superior to such a maneuver. I'd only want to try it I think with low fuel and when I was totally flat on the deck and out of options. That said, in any plane with decent low speed handling with good low speed accelleration, it might be worth trying. Versus something like a Spit I think the real strength of this maneuver is to tease the enemy into pushing it too hard and riding his craft a bit too deep into stall. Better hope the Spit pilot is not patient, because if he's willing to conserver his E and wait for the kill, your odds are pretty low I'd think.
That said if you are out of E and options, it's better than simply riding the stall horn and waiting to die if the other craft has better low speed sustained turn performance .
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Originally posted by Lephturn
I would think any amount of vertical component would end up superior to such a maneuver. I'd only want to try it I think with low fuel and when I was totally flat on the deck and out of options. That said, in any plane with decent low speed handling with good low speed accelleration, it might be worth trying. Versus something like a Spit I think the real strength of this maneuver is to tease the enemy into pushing it too hard and riding his craft a bit too deep into stall. Better hope the Spit pilot is not patient, because if he's willing to conserver his E and wait for the kill, your odds are pretty low I'd think.
That said if you are out of E and options, it's better than simply riding the stall horn and waiting to die if the other craft has better low speed sustained turn performance .
WOW !!! ... now there is a name that I haven't seen on this BBS in quite awhile.
Just passin' thru lephturn or will we see you in the sky ?
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Originally posted by Lephturn
That said if you are out of E and options, it's better than simply riding the stall horn and waiting to die if the other craft has better low speed sustained turn performance .
It's definitely a last ditch maneuver.
ack-ack
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At this point just poking around the BBS. I've been gone about a year, but I'm interested in getting back in. I moved cities last year and was offline for a couple of months... after which my account was gone. I'll have to call up the crew at HTC and see about getting that thing re-instated. :) It was a nice break, but I really miss shooting down all you dweebs and listening to ya whine about it on CH 1. ;) Heheh.
I'm sure you guys miss having that furballing P-47 around to beat on anyway. :D
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no disrespect akak but i belive that if the spit pilot know's what his doing, the P38 will loose
it was a gryffin engine spit there and it has worse hendling then the merlin spitIX we have in AH
i would love to go to the training arena to test spit9 and spit14 vrs the 38
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i think i remember this one akak..."big john" wasnt that his nickname? That spitfire pilot landed at their airfield and started spouting his mouth off saying how great the new spitfire is and said that he will take on any P-38 pilot at the base, and then all the guys started shouting for "Big John" to come out. Even has some line crewmen drain half his fuel from his tanks after he inquired to the brit how much fuel he had to which the reply was "half petrol".
I'm sure you've read the one about a turnfight around the eiffel tower as well...sure got a laugh there. ooh ooh...and Gunther Rall when they got into a 190 vs P-38 fight in a quarry pit. Memory is working overdrive now :)
Golfer
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Originally posted by Golfer
and Gunther Rall when they got into a 190 vs P-38 fight in a quarry pit. Memory is working overdrive now :)
Golfer
Or when Galland crapped his pants when he saw Lowell dive after his FW190 when he tried his Split-Arse escape to the deck. Lucky for Galland that Lowell was down to fumes and couldn't continue the pursuit.
ack-ack
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it was galland...my apologies. I got my luftwaffe wires crossed trying to get my memories back online :)
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I spoke with a P-38 pilot who used the term "box turns." Is that the same thing or what is that?
This same pilot is friends with Gunthar Raul who I was told stated the LW pilots let their rookies fight the P-38 when they encountered it.