Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Yeager on August 05, 2003, 08:59:49 AM
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Several fascinating tidbits I had never heard of before and a japanese perspective that A-bombs were a "gift from heaven"...go figure
http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/08/05/nyt.kristof/index.html
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Yeager (Sorry for the hijack), you interested in driving down to the West coast Con in October? Get in touch with me if you are...
soupnazi60@yahoo.com
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A good book to seek out in the library is "The Rising Sun" by John Toland. It chronicles World War 2 from the Japanese perspective, and makes for fascinating reading. The final few chapters are devoted to Hiroshima/Nagasaki, and the behind the scenes fight between those in the Japanese government who wanted peace, and those who wanted to continue the war to the bloody end.
I highly recommend this book, it's very very engrossing.
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One of the great tales of World War II concerns an American fighter pilot named Marcus McDilda who was shot down on Aug. 8 and brutally interrogated about the atomic bombs. He knew nothing, but under torture he "confessed" that the U.S. had 100 more nuclear weapons and planned to destroy Tokyo "in the next few days."
The Japanese didn't seem to treat allied airmen very friendly.
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Originally posted by davidpt40
The Japanese didn't seem to treat allied airmen very friendly.
Ask the fine folks who visited Bataan about their stay...
Its easy to look back now, in our creature comforts and condemn the use of the bomb. But back then, when remember Pearl Harbor was on the mind and knowing how POWs are being treated, etc...I don't think I'd have a lot of empathy for the Japs back then
Frankly, I think we should've hit Tokyo, but they surrendered anyways.
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Nelson Mandela seems to have developed into an ignorant piece of trash...
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Seems Monday morning Quarterback has 20/20 hinsight. The invaion of Japan was going to be bloody. Japan would of lost in the end and would of not survie as anything. They would of been wiped out. So in the end it saved Japan. It was terrible. But onething also was that we saw what the effect of the bombings were. So I think that we were much more restrant in useing those weopons. And I have a selfish reason that I'm glad they were used. My Dad was 17, almost 18 at the time, just finish his training in the Navy. He was on his way in the Pacific when they were dropped. If we had to invade, who knows if my Dad would of survied. He was a sonar operiator. So he would of ended up on a Destoyer in the invaion.
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Anyone seen the movie Hiroshima?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Nelson Mandela seems to have developed into an ignorant piece of trash...
Yea ... thought that too.
But from what I've read, he hasnt done much good in his own backyard either
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It feels unseemly to defend the vaporizing of two cities, events that are regarded in some quarters as among the most monstrous acts of the 20th century. But we owe it to history to appreciate that the greatest tragedy of Hiroshima was not that so many people were incinerated in an instant, but that in a complex and brutal world, the alternatives were worse.
That's a heavy paragraph....
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All I have to do is talk to my old neighbor. Major in the Marines, flew Corsairs in WWII. His unit was providing air cover for Operation Olympic. Loss rate was predicted to be 100% for his group.
He'll give you a piece of his mind about the morality of the bomb, and I agree with him totally.
It's war. Nobody takes issue with the bombing of civillians on a smaller scale, for some reason. Even when it's done with hundreds of bombers (firebombings in Tokyo, Dresden, Hamburg), nobody remembers. But when it's done with one bomber, it's all of a sudden it's the worst thing ever.
It had been going on the whole war, people. The US just found a terribly efficient way to do it.
Something else that's not discussed in the article... if the US had waited, the USSR may have participated in or supported the invasion of Japan, and in return been given a piece of the postwar pie, a la East/West Germany. Imagine if the mess in cold war Germany had gone on in North and South Japan.
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Very good points Tarmac.
It is interesting to play "What if.." but in the end, we made the right choice.
I don't savor incinerating 100,000 people, but if it saved countless American and Japanese lives, which it did, then the answer is clear.
Oh, Hippies Suck.
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Originally posted by muckmaw
Very good points Tarmac.
It is interesting to play "What if.." but in the end, we made the right choice.
I don't savor incinerating 100,000 people, but if it saved countless American and Japanese lives, which it did, then the answer is clear.
Oh, Hippies Suck.
Very good points, to you too Muck.
Especially that last one. :D
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My father told me once that the correct decision in a troubling situation is more often times the hardest choice to make. Its what separates the leaders from the pack. If you go with the easy decision more often than not, its usually the wrong one. One has to wonder what Truman thought all those nights when, in the end, it was his decision to drop the bomb. As for having an example on an abandonded island I think we all know what the Japanese military would have said. In the end its all about one thing; which act will save more lives. And as Tarmac pointed out the killing of civilians in strategic bombing had been going on for years before Hiro and Naga.
In a class I had this Spring, my economics teacher (an expatriated Iranian with a Doctorate in Economics and a comlpete bleeding heart liberal) told me, rather passinately, that dropping the atomic bombs were morally wrong and the US has to accept the result of that decision. I agreed and then pointed out, using books and other documents, what the cost of Operation Olympic would have been in human lives both military and civilian and he just sat there staring. I said "Yes, you are the numbers expert, you do the math and tell what makes more 'economic' sense." He then told me he had never really researched the facts behind the bombings and the expected casualties of both sides for the invasion. Makes you wonder where these people get their opinion. :rolleyes:
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Had Japan had the A-Bomb and a capable delivery system, they would have used it on the USA, England, and the USSR.
Germany would have used it on England, the USSR, the USA.
England would have used it on Germany, the USSR, and Japan.
The USA would have used it on Germany too if we had the bomb earlier.
THAT'S WAR.
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Originally posted by SaburoS
England would have used it on Germany, the USSR, and the USA.
England would have used it on the USA?
(Don't forget, hippies suck)
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I remember when the Enola Gay was put on display in the Smithsonian. the first day it was defaced by some ashhole...
Some people just need an excuse to hate this country, no mater how lame the excuse is.
Hippies really do SUCK!!
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Makes you wonder where these people get their opinion.
Most people form their opinion, rather than get it from somewhere.
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Originally posted by DiabloTX
Makes you wonder where these people get their opinion. :rolleyes:
Usually from their arnold.
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Originally posted by Dowding
Most people form their opinion, rather than get it from somewhere.
And if we wanted your opinion, we'd give it to ya! :D
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Originally posted by Inferno
England would have used it on the USA?
Sure, in 1812...
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Originally posted by DiabloTX
My father told me once that the correct decision in a troubling situation is more often times the hardest choice to make. Its what separates the leaders from the pack. If you go with the easy decision more often than not, its usually the wrong one. One has to wonder what Truman thought all those nights when, in the end, it was his decision to drop the bomb. As for having an example on an abandonded island I think we all know what the Japanese military would have said. In the end its all about one thing; which act will save more lives. And as Tarmac pointed out the killing of civilians in strategic bombing had been going on for years before Hiro and Naga.
In a class I had this Spring, my economics teacher (an expatriated Iranian with a Doctorate in Economics and a comlpete bleeding heart liberal) told me, rather passinately, that dropping the atomic bombs were morally wrong and the US has to accept the result of that decision. I agreed and then pointed out, using books and other documents, what the cost of Operation Olympic would have been in human lives both military and civilian and he just sat there staring. I said "Yes, you are the numbers expert, you do the math and tell what makes more 'economic' sense." He then told me he had never really researched the facts behind the bombings and the expected casualties of both sides for the invasion. Makes you wonder where these people get their opinion. :rolleyes:
Well said Diablo.
About your professor's comment. At least he admitted he hadn't researched the facts, like you have. He probably learned something that day. I bet you got a A in the class.
Les
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Concerning the morality of using the bomb. Had it not been used at the time, there is a very good possibility some of us may have not been born to be posting here today.
It ended a long, bitter war with an extremely dangerous and deadly enemy. It turned out to be the right thing to do in the end, for BOTH sides.
I do not believe the Japanese military would have surrendered, except under extraordinary circumstances.
Les
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Originally posted by Dowding
Most people form their opinion, rather than get it from somewhere.
He couldn't quote me anything to support his view. He didn't have an answer to the hard questions I asked him. In the end I deduced that his opinion was given to him by someone he listened to. Thus, he 'got' his opinion from someone.
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Lets not forget Japan committed many attrocious war crimes, bombing Chinese civilians among them.
War is war. When it boils down to survival there are no rules.
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Damn I sure wish the Axis had won WW2 outright, or even Stalin somehow, that way we would have been spared the horrors of th great satan USA.... :rolleyes:
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Rip, I doubt that I can manage a trip down to Kalifornia any time soon. Thanks for asking though, Im sure you would have enjoyed my company ;)
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Originally posted by Leslie
Concerning the morality of using the bomb. Had it not been used at the time, there is a very good possibility some of us may have not been born to be posting here today.
It ended a long, bitter war with an extremely dangerous and deadly enemy. It turned out to be the right thing to do in the end, for BOTH sides.
I do not believe the Japanese military would have surrendered, except under extraordinary circumstances.
Les
I completely agree.
The US used the atomic bombs to end the war and save many lives on both sides.
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Originally posted by Inferno
England would have used it on the USA?
(Don't forget, hippies suck)
Doh! That's what I get for rushing a post in before work.
Edited it. Thanks :)
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Originally posted by muckmaw
Oh, Hippies Suck.
I need a Hippie girlfriend....
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Imagine a time when it all began
In the dying days of a war
A weapon - that would settle the score
Whoever found it first
Would be sure to do their worst -
They always had before...
Imagine a man where it all began
A scientist pacing the floor
In each nation - always eager to explore
To build the best big stick
To turn the winning trick -
But this was something more...
The big bang - took and shook the world
Shot down the rising sun
the end was begun - it would hit everyone
When the chain reaction was done
The big shots - try to hold it back
Fools try to wish it away
The hopeful depend on a world without end
Whatever the hopeless may say
Imagine a place where it all began
They gathered from across the land
To work in the secrecy of the desert sand
All of the brightest boys
To play with the biggest toys -
More than they bargained for...
Imagine a man when it all began
The pilot of "Enola Gay"
Flying out of the shockwave on that August day
All the powers that be, and the course of history,
Would be changed for evermore...
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Originally posted by LePaul
Frankly, I think we should've hit Tokyo, but they surrendered anyways.
It would seem redundant to drop an A bomb on a city we just burnt to the ground,
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Originally posted by Yeager
Imagine a time when it all began
In the dying days of a war
A weapon - that would settle the score
Whoever found it first
Would be sure to do their worst -
They always had before...
Imagine a man where it all began
A scientist pacing the floor
In each nation - always eager to explore
To build the best big stick
To turn the winning trick -
But this was something more...
The big bang - took and shook the world
Shot down the rising sun
the end was begun - it would hit everyone
When the chain reaction was done
The big shots - try to hold it back
Fools try to wish it away
The hopeful depend on a world without end
Whatever the hopeless may say
Imagine a place where it all began
They gathered from across the land
To work in the secrecy of the desert sand
All of the brightest boys
To play with the biggest toys -
More than they bargained for...
Imagine a man when it all began
The pilot of "Enola Gay"
Flying out of the shockwave on that August day
All the powers that be, and the course of history,
Would be changed for evermore...
Good quote, Yeager.
Too bad rush sucks...not as much as hippies, but it sucks nonetheless.:D