Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: lazs2 on August 06, 2003, 02:12:23 PM
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Add a CV to each CV group.. the groups would last a lot longer that way and so would the only action on the maps.
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
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Is it possible for early war planes be enabled at the VHs inside Trinity's center ring?
They aren't a threat to GVs, and could furball without interference from late war planes.
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Just to be certain I understand, you want 2 carriers in each convoy? Your reasoning being that the strat guys will have to sink 2 of them, giving you a few more minutes of furballing?
Not that I necessarily support the strat guys or furballers, but I don't think that's a very good solution. It's kind of a band-aid, because now they'll just send 2 guys over to knock out the fleet.
I think the real problem is the carriers are just a little too fragile. Every time I've gone after a carrier, either someone else has put 3000 lbs of ordnance on it already, or they're made out of tissue paper, because I can dive bomb one and with a single 1000 lb bomb and knock it out.
As a strat guy, I would want the carriers to be a bit tougher, because as far as I know, a single p-38 wasn't able to sink a ship with one pass. As a furballer, I would want the carriers to be a bit tougher for obvious reasons.
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Rather than 2 carriers per fleet, I'd suggest more fleets and that way the admirals could cooperate and bring their fleets together as the situation warranted.
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Also a good solution.
Perhaps larger task groups from larger ports or something.
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Are you kidding? :eek: If used properly, a CV task force is unstoppable. Say what you really mean. You want to be able to park a task force 2 miles off a base and never have to worry about it again. Or maybe try this, get a group of flyers together, designate some as attackers, some as base suppression and some to protect the carrier. Have the carrier off shore far enough so that bombers can be picked off before they get close. Once the base is preped for capture, move the force in a bit closer and let the lvts roll.
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IMO, HT should increase the "way point touches land" distance.
6-8 miles offshore is still close, lets the big guns be used and stops the fleet ack from popping above the bad guy base.
The best CV vs. Land Base fights I have been in are when the CV is kept a reasonable distance from the shore. The fights are just as intense and the CV lasts longer.
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In the MA, task forces are anything but "unstoppable." It's a trivial task to take a jabo-loaded 38, 51, 47, whatever, up to around 15k, then dive-bomb it. If you're at 20k and good, you'll even survive. A single plane will drop the carrier, which is all that's needed to take the teeth out of a TG. Now, you win due to attrition.
What lazs wants is for his furballing fun to last longer against the strat guy's fun, he's not arguing for a tougher CV attack against a land base.
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The only time a single jabo will sink a CV is if it's already soft. It takes 8,000lbs of ordnance to sink a CV.
ack-ack
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Not sure this will help. Normally, when we sink a CV, we have one flight of bombers going after the cruiser, or going home with bombs. Sinking 2 cvs would just be a simple matter of changing that bombers target. Granted, it would stop the lonw wolf strater, or at least slow him down. However, 9 times out of 10, when I go after a CV, I'm racing 3 or 4 other guys to get it first.
I think you need more task groups instead.
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CT has multiple CV's in each group
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how do you take off from the other CVs in one group?
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Originally posted by oboe
Is it possible for early war planes be enabled at the VHs inside Trinity's center ring?
They aren't a threat to GVs, and could furball without interference from late war planes.
I asked (was going to enable 202's and P40b's since neither carry ord), the Great High Muckity Muck of AH said "no". It sets a precedent and he doesn't want to deal with the possible problems that could arise from it.
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I like Lazs idea. Add another cv AND up the hardness significantly.
There aren't often good fights to be found on the Big Isle map but when there are good ones, they are most often cv related and pretty darned intense.
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some CV battles are fun but some are a hoard of red. I say keep as they are but Furious had the right idea. Dont bring them so close to shore.
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mos, last night I defended our own CV162 for an hour, until it got out of enemy range, alone in a F6F-5, against eight people attempting to kill it.
Ofcourse, our 5 inch guns were also manned.
...
JB42 is right. What it really boils down to is whether or not if somebody is really willing to do that "boring" and "not fun" task, in benefit of others.
It is only natural that if you park a CV near a base, and don't have sufficient numbers of people to suppress it quick, people - kamikaze or not - will go after the CV. It is after all, a primary target.
So, how do CVs get sunk in MA?
Unlike an airbase which cannot move, the CV is a mobile platform. When in bad odds, it can always try and retreat, come back later in fresh shape. But the problem is, people neglect that fact, and treat it as an insta-furball machine, permanently embedded 5~10 miles outside enemy base.
So, in a hairy furball(which, also means that quick base suppression has already failed), unless there are people who can see one~two moves ahead of the defenders, there is always bound to be a defender or two slipping through the gobs of attackers and going to the CV. Or, stay near hostile shores too long, and you bet there's gonna be pack of buffs coming to hunt it down, lifting from another field.
Nobody foresees that? Then the CV dies.
Everybody sees it coming, but too lazy to defend it? The CV dies.
When the CV turns away and runs to open sea, as soon as it escapes the radar range its chances of survival go way up. The further you move from the shore, the further and longer the enemy has to travel. With each wave of attack thwarted, the CV hunters have to up again with those heavy ordnance, and get to alt again.
Practically, this whining about toughness of CVs is just like JB said. People want to park the CV near enemy base, with virtually no threat to it, and overwhelm the defenders and vulch the crap out of it, without having to do any tedious but vital chores such as "defense". Its got auto-flak, the ack-barrier, spawns PTs, GVs, aircraft, gun batteries.. wow, all that firepower and no need to defend it at all. Just attack and attack and attack.
Frankly, nothings gonna satisfy the furball lovers until the CV is whined to its invincibility. As long as they refuse to cooperate with the strat lovers, and ignore imminent threats and have their own fun, they gonna pay the consequences for it.
Nobody can dictate how you fly? That's good.
Then, you will not dictate to anybody how they deal with you, or your strat/tactical targets.
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Well, Kweassa, I guess you could call it whining. I'm hearing plenty of complaints about folks not being able to find a fight, though. Rude was commenting on it just a few minutes ago... then logged. I think hardened cv's would lead to more/longer fights. You seem to be bitterly against it. Tell me, how would it hurt you and your enjoyment of the game?
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yep... it's not about defending the CV... that is strat weinie mental masturbation... no way are the majority of the players gonna be interested in that or even notice if someone does defend. Mostly CV's are sunk by suicide dweebs anyway and they are unstoppable.. you would have to be as dedicated to gameyness as they are to defend against em... I have killed the same low level bomber guy as many as four times before the cv is sunk.
no.. it is about finding good fights for a lot of people... make it so the CV's can't get within 5 miles of the shore.... add a cv to the group or...
how bout we make it so that the CV's are invincible untill all the escort is sunk?
lazs
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The bigger the furball, the more fun. However, also the bigger the risk and more numerous the dweebs. How you ever think you gonna get rid of suicidal people? After all, they fighting the way they like, in what they like, no? Now you whine that something be changed for you because you don't like them ruining your own fun?
Us masturbating strat weenies stop CV killers all the time.
Unfortunately, like you pointed out Lazy, even you belly-scratching furball lubbers who usually benefit the most from our masturbating weenism, are all ungrateful SOBs that you rarely notice when some people are fighting hard to keep CVs alive for a prolonged period of time.
After it does get sunk, no thanks to the idjits swarming the target field in a gigantic luftberry circle 500 ft above ground like a pack of horny geese, all the while us weeneis scream "some of you please grab alt"..... you come here and complain that its the other guys' fault, that your fun gets ruined? -- Blaming CV hunters, suicidal dweebs, weak CV durability, etc etc and everything.... Everything except you yourselves of course.
Man, how self serving can one get?
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I have to agree with Kweassa. This is beginning to sound like self serving "I want my cake and I want to eat it too!". Unfortunately for the furry ballers, the MA game is not just about furballing. It is a multi-faceted game with many different things to do. Admittedly, I am not particularly good at any of them...but, I do try and I have a lot of fun doing it.
To be honest, focusing on only one aspect of the game would bore me to tears. For this reason, I will always advocate that terrains do their best to give something to everyone. The point being, what I enjoy doing is no more or less important that what any other player wants to do.
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Originally posted by ccvi
how do you take off from the other CVs in one group?
Select the CV you wish to up from
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Originally posted by NoBaddy
I have to agree with Kweassa. This is beginning to sound like self serving "I want my cake and I want to eat it too!". Unfortunately for the furry ballers, the MA game is not just about furballing. It is a multi-faceted game with many different things to do. Admittedly, I am not particularly good at any of them...but, I do try and I have a lot of fun doing it.
To be honest, focusing on only one aspect of the game would bore me to tears. For this reason, I will always advocate that terrains do their best to give something to everyone. The point being, what I enjoy doing is no more or less important that what any other player wants to do.
C'mon NB:)
You know that by making adjustments which enhance and prolong the faster lower kind of fights, that in of itself will in no way take away from a strat players fun.
I logged on last night and located the largest collection of colored pixels on the map....went to the base which was under attack and found the fuel at 25%...tha's cool I said...I'll just defend here a bit....well, the ack was down and the field was being vulched.
So....I went to a nearby field(sector and a quarter away) grabbed my 38(I'm trying to learn to fly this thing), only to find, yup, the fule at 25%....at that loadout, only the pony could get me to the fight with a chance of rtb'in...at best, a short stay there as well.
So....I went to the next closest field....repaeated the same, fuel at 25%. Now some of you may think that I should have just grabbed from a field 2 or 3 sectors away and wasted 20 minutes gettin to a fight...if so, thats your right. Me, personally, want to engage quickly as I do not have many opportunities to fly.
Now I believe the strat guys should be able to take out fuel....just not with one plane and so easily.
I left the MA and went to the DA where guess what? It was getting dark....in the DA it was getting dark? What's up with that?
Hopefull, HTC will fix the dark DA issue.
All we want is for the hordes of strat super missions to earn their victories and not just sit on folks and give them no options. Multiple CV's would help accomplish this while only giving the strat guys more strat targets which should give them a woody I would think?
Do you disagree?
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Self serving... aren't we all self serving when it comes to looking for things we enjoy? That statement just wasn't well thought out. And when it comes to entertainment, yes, I want my cake and I want to eat it, too. NB, neither was that one.
Later in the evenings, specifically on the big Isle map it can be nigh impossible to find a fight. I simply don't see how upping cv hardness and even adding another cv to the TG will adversely effect non-furballer types. I don't have a thing against folks who like to bomb or take bases... etc. Heck, I'm not even a hardcore furballer like Lazs.. I just think he has a good point, specifically as it relates to Big Isles.
I've already asked the question once and couldn't get an answer from those who are against his idea: How will upping cv hardness and adding another cv adversely effect non-furballers?
Doubling cv hardness won't make them unsinkable, but it will lengthen the duration of those great fights. Adding a cv gives the strat guys another target: in this way strat guys actually benefit as well as furballers. I'm not saying it's a perfect idea...what idea is? I AM saying that Lazs idea will increase the duration of those furballs that so many people enjoy while not seriously effecting the enjoyment of others in the game.
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Originally posted by NoBaddy
The point being, what I enjoy doing is no more or less important that what any other player wants to do.
Indeed. I agree absolutely. Now, if both sides just fully understood this simple concept.
As Rude said, the furball types do not affect the strat game in the least and really don't care that the strat folks are doing what strat folks want to do.
That is, UNTIL the strat game impairs the furball guys from doing what furballers do.
That's where "no more or less important that what any other player wants to do" comes into play.
The door needs to swing both ways.
IMO.
Now, it may be that you can't achieve both in one arena or at least in the present form of the MA.
I have high hopes of AH2: TOD being an attractive draw for those in search of deeper strategy, more "realism", a stronger form of "death penalty" or whatever. I want those guys to be happy.
At the same time, I hope AH2: TOD, by drawing those guys away from the MA will improve the MA for those less interested in strategy, etc, etc.
Just my .02.
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Originally posted by Rude
C'mon NB:)
Do you disagree?
Hell no! I have never implied that I do. What irks me is the continuing childish 'if you don't play my way, you suck' theme that seems to run through all of these threads.
Yah, I know..the same tripe was being written 13 years ago on the Genie AW boards. I guess some things will never change :).
I do know that HT is leaning towards toughening the strat objects at the fields (why? cuz I asked :)). Personally, the biggest problem I have with any of the strat stuff is that anyone (single or group) can negatively impact the game for an entire country for hours. IMO, if max downtime was reduced to 1 hour...the game in general would benefit immensly.
Oh well...that's not my call. If it was...this game woulda been outta business long ago, I'm sure :D.
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Originally posted by Toad
Indeed. I agree absolutely. Now, if both sides just fully understood this simple concept.
As Rude said, the furball types do not affect the strat game in the least and really don't care that the strat folks are doing what strat folks want to do.
That is, UNTIL the strat game impairs the furball guys from doing what furballers do.
That's where "no more or less important that what any other player wants to do" comes into play.
The door needs to swing both ways.
IMO.
Actually Toad...that door does swing both ways now. The strat players' "job" is to impair the enemy (furballers included). Part of the problem is that furballers refuse to accept and act upon this. Instead of playing the MA game, they have a tendency to demand that the MA be setup to play their way or that their own private niche be carved out for them in the MA.
To be fair (yah...I can be :)), the strat players have done similar things when they felt their 'fun' was being messed with. (COD...I did love resupplying a field to 100% even before the 17's that trashed it were out of sight :D).
For me, dropping the Baby Ruth bar in the pool and screaming "TURD" is the most fun in the game. As long as I can continue to find ways to do this...I will be a happy camper. Geez...I'm soooooo easy :D.
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Originally posted by lazs2
no.. it is about finding good fights for a lot of people... make it so the CV's can't get within 5 miles of the shore.... add a cv to the group
Not a bad idea...set up a reef line.
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The cv ack is inept. Anyone can fly right past the cruisers and up to the CV if they are flying on the deck. A 3 bomber formation can pass over the CV at 2k and 200mph and survive. Neither of these should be remotely possible. Getting within 5k of the cv from any direction should be a deathwish. Not a "I might get pinged before I release, but doubt it" wish.
Turn the fricking ack back up. Move the dweeb tactics away from the bases and call it a "furball".
MiniD
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Some (most IMO) don't see what we're saying.
It's pretty simple actually. If the strat guys didn't show up at the furbal and pork whatever it is we're fighting at/over, we would most likely not leave that spot. Strat guys wouldn't even know we were there.
But oh no! Can't have that CV floatin' around.
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What's worse... the strat guys showing up thinking its more than just a furball or the furballers showing up and thinking its supposed to be just a furball?
You don't call dibs on fights and bases.
MiniD
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The question goes unanswered...why? Because the strat fellows cannot anwer it without admitting no harm would come of it.
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Originally posted by Mini D
What's worse... the strat guys showing up thinking its more than just a furball or the furballers showing up and thinking its supposed to be just a furball?
You don't call dibs on fights and bases.
MiniD
Well thats easy. Strat guys showing up...sheesh.
BTW, you're right on about the ack.
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Can mapmakers disable troop availability at the CV?
Might make it of less concern to the strat game. Then up the CV hardness or ack strength or whatever.
Then you'd have a CV that was not really a strategic threat and hard to kill but, if some dedicated strat guy really wanted to, he could probably still kill it.
Might help; you never know until you try it.
There's no doubt, for me, that the CV fights are the best even though one has a somewhat limited choice of aircraft. I can live with the CV planeset because the action is almost always good.
NB, as I said, I don't think any of the present MA maps or even the MA itself allows the concept of "what I enjoy doing is no more or less important that what any other player wants to do".
Using your own example,
The strat players' "job" is to impair the enemy (furballers included). Part of the problem is that furballers refuse to accept and act upon this.
this indicates that "impairing the enemy" is more important than fuballing. Further, this lesser importance becomes the furballers problem.
Like I said, I just don't think the present set-up allows for the mutual respect of other "type" players interests.
Come on TOD! ;)
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well... I think that the pendulum has swung too far over to the strat side. the whole map is their oyster... they can ruin the fun of dozens of players with very little effort... As rude points out... they can pork the fuel and force people to have a very boring 20 or 30 minutes online... there are very few places that are good for furballing... we aren't asking for the whole map just some spots that the suicide porkers can't affect so easily...
closer fields in some clumps so that you don't have to fly1.5-3 sectors to get to a fight or... limit you to flying only pee 51's cause they get 3 times the fuel that everyone else gets when it's down to 25% (65 or so compared to 20 gallons for some).... tougher or harder to game CV's (who ever heard of a cv group being sunk by level bombers for instance?).
The strat weinies and skilless suicide guys have gotten things to the point where dead time is about 20 minutes per sortie these days. I would just like to bring the dead time down to a more managable level.
If they had to sink two cv's or all the escort ships first... It ld take a lot longer and other anal types just like them on the other side would roll over their undefended fields while they were busy with fart jokes and unwrapping baby ruths to throw in the pool..... that woud kinda take the fun out of it and cause them no end to hand wringing.... they would probly leave for more productive suicide runs where their lack of skill could be put to better use.
lazs
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Originally posted by Steve
How will upping cv hardness and adding another cv adversely effect non-furballers?
You make the CV group a greater threat to a base by doing this. You increase the chance of the CV making a successful base capture. Hardening the CV, or adding a CV to the group will obviously make them last longer, allowing them to spew out more planes and pork the base even more than it is now (if that's possible).
If a CV is out in the middle of the ocean, and is not a threat to any of our assets, my squadron leaves it alone.
As soon as that CV begins attacking our assets, we sink it. (on squad nights, anyway).
So how does it affect non-furballers? Well, I'll bring a wingman now when I want to send the entire task force to the bottom. No biggy.
Perhaps, have CV's repair themselves faster? Force people to either attack a CV with a squadron of dive bombers or have to hit it with a level bomber.
The way Ive seen some people level bomb, that damn boat will rust before it ever sinks.
Question: Why don't the furballers unite? Get the best ranked furball pilot you can for each side, and have them move 3 CVs out into the middle of the ocean (when we have an ocean)..keep em 1/2 a sector apart and go at it?
Granted, you have to keep saying over country channel..please do not sink, do not use the big guns, etc. but it must be worth the effort. You prevent vultches, you can never get your field porked, and you get your close fields. All of this is available to you right now, with out a single act on HTs part.
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Toad...
Yah, you could disable troops from CV's (hell, you can disable anything that can be enabled...anywhere). The only problem is that the Great High Muckity Muck has carved on stone tablets that "Thou shalt not fork with my MA setup!!".
However, I do see a possibility here :).
How about 2 different kinds of CV groups? Large, like we have now. With no LVT's and no PT's. Then, a small one, no cruiser, but it has supply ships (to help replace that cruiser ack :)). Sinking the supply ships would be the same as trashing the barracks at a field...no supply ships...no troopies :). The visual differences between the 2 types would make it obvious that 1 could capture a field and the other couldn't.
Both types of CV groups could probably be attached to the same port. I would also suggest that the large be a bit faster than the small.
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Ahh.... and here we have it..... "why don't you furballers unite?" that is the most important statement of the thread and points out in the best possible way why the strat guys will never understand a single thing we say.
lazs
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The other important thing in this thread is when NB admitted that he most liked to throw baby ruths in the swimming pool and cry turd yet....... is so easily offended by descriptive phrases about what strat weinies, sky accountants and suicide dweebs do...
Oh well... we will never get along... best tio simply design a map where it looks like we are co-existing. closer fields... think about it.
lazs
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Lasz...
Moving fields closer together wouldn't impact the strat players at all. In fact, it would just make their 'job' easier. I'm seeing it more and more that 2 or 3 guys are going around and trashing every frontline field near a field that is under attack. All moving things closer together would do is make this easier for them (less flight time :)).
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Originally posted by lazs2
Ahh.... and here we have it..... "why don't you furballers unite?" that is the most important statement of the thread and points out in the best possible way why the strat guys will never understand a single thing we say.
lazs
I offer a suggestion on how you can get what you want now, without asking HT and this is a problem for you?
Understand something. HTC is busy making AH2. Period. Your not going to get your minifurball, early war only, no strat, unlimited fuel, airstart, power-up arena at least until AH2 is out and running. Simple as that.
So instead of constantly coming on the boards with this non-stop barrage of requests, whines, and flame fests, why don't you get off your arnold and do something to help your own cause. You've said you don't have the time to make your own map. You said you don't have the ability or the energy to do it either.
Are you too constrained on time to start a thread to get furballers together and move some CV's?
You've got plenty of time to post here, look up everybodys score, and then go on patrol for people that don't agree with you.
If your so passionate about this crusade of yours, do something about it, instead of bugging everyone else to fix your problem for you.
I gave you a suggestion. Don't like it? Not my problem.
Have a nice day.
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Originally posted by NoBaddy
Hell no! I have never implied that I do. What irks me is the continuing childish 'if you don't play my way, you suck' theme that seems to run through all of these threads.
Yah, I know..the same tripe was being written 13 years ago on the Genie AW boards. I guess some things will never change :).
I do know that HT is leaning towards toughening the strat objects at the fields (why? cuz I asked :)). Personally, the biggest problem I have with any of the strat stuff is that anyone (single or group) can negatively impact the game for an entire country for hours. IMO, if max downtime was reduced to 1 hour...the game in general would benefit immensly.
Oh well...that's not my call. If it was...this game woulda been outta business long ago, I'm sure :D.
Good....now you can still be my friend:)
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Originally posted by muckmaw
You make the CV group a greater threat to a base by doing this. You increase the chance of the CV making a successful base capture. Hardening the CV, or adding a CV to the group will obviously make them last longer, allowing them to spew out more planes and pork the base even more than it is now (if that's possible).
If a CV is out in the middle of the ocean, and is not a threat to any of our assets, my squadron leaves it alone.
As soon as that CV begins attacking our assets, we sink it. (on squad nights, anyway).
So how does it affect non-furballers? Well, I'll bring a wingman now when I want to send the entire task force to the bottom. No biggy.
Perhaps, have CV's repair themselves faster? Force people to either attack a CV with a squadron of dive bombers or have to hit it with a level bomber.
The way Ive seen some people level bomb, that damn boat will rust before it ever sinks.
Question: Why don't the furballers unite? Get the best ranked furball pilot you can for each side, and have them move 3 CVs out into the middle of the ocean (when we have an ocean)..keep em 1/2 a sector apart and go at it?
Granted, you have to keep saying over country channel..please do not sink, do not use the big guns, etc. but it must be worth the effort. You prevent vultches, you can never get your field porked, and you get your close fields. All of this is available to you right now, with out a single act on HTs part.
You make the CV group a greater threat to a base by doing this. You increase the chance of the CV making a successful base capture. Hardening the CV, or adding a CV to the group will obviously make them last longer, allowing them to spew out more planes and pork the base even more than it is now (if that's possible).
The above is silly Muck....c'mon man....those little LVT's are the slowest vehicle in the game and are easily killed.....do you fear a steamroller coming from the CV's? Endless stream of fighters and fighter/bombers?
You think that a direct fight resulting from that effort would result in no fun for anyone?
Besides....plenty of strat targets around for those who don't want to fight heads up....they have a way to play while what you strat guys don't want is to allow us any options....it's cool to you guys that I logon to find no fuel at my base and the other three surrounding it. It's crazy.
In the twelve years I've been playin these games, I've never seen such a timid player base....it sucks.
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Muck, thanks for replying. :)
"You make the CV group a greater threat to a base by doing this. You increase the chance of the CV making a successful base capture."
Rude pretty much covered this.
"Hardening the CV, or adding a CV to the group will obviously make them last longer, allowing them to spew out more planes"
That's the idea!!!!!! longer fights!
Muck, you still haven't answered though, how hardening the CV or adding another CV to TG will negatively impact the strat people.
I'm not saying we need a furball only area, or an early plane set area... nothing of the sort my friend.
I simply believe that we need more fights in Big Isles and this suggestion is one way to accomodate that. :)
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You guys are killing me. I should be working...hehe
Steve-
Strat players play to win the reset...as silly as that may be to some. We fight to gain, and defend fields. Hardening the CV will just make our style tougher. Our defense will have to be better. I have no problem with it. I would say I would be against hardening a CV to a point where it is unrealistic. How much ordinance should sink a CV. Well that's a balance HT must strike between history and gameplay. Not an easy line to walk, as I'm sure you know. Look at the Intrepid. How many bombs struck her? How many Kamikazes? And yet she is still sfloat to this day. Now look at the Battleships at Pearl. Arizona took one bomb in the magazine and she was doomed.
Instead of hardening the CV, or in addition to it, have it repair itself, or more detailed, have it be take damage commiserate with where it's hit. Either way...add CV's. Harden them. It does not matter to me. I don't see a CV standing up to 16,0000 lbs of bombs, which is what a level bomber can put on it. When a cv group needs to be taken out, I'll just bring a wingman. Simple adaptation.
Rude-
I'm having a tough time making out that second sentence in your post. Anyway, sure LVTs are vulnerable, but they capture bases. Now add more of them, give them more time to wear down our defence, bring in waves of suicide dweebs who don't care about dyung because they can pork the fuel and onlty have to fly 1/4 of a sector and what have you got? A dead base and eventually a capture. Spew out enough LVTs and suicide dweebs and we both know the field is getting porked, capped, vuclhed and captured.
I'm not a pure strat player. I play all aspects of AH, so my interest lies with both the FURs and the Strats.
Frankly, they could add the CV, toughen the CV etc. I've got no problem with that as I'll be in those furballs 50% of the time. The other 1/2, I'll be sinking that biatch, if shes a threat to the strat.
I'd like to see both sides benefit. This is why I said we can make a fix right now by just moving the CVs ourselves. Geez, I get attacked for trying to help out.
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Why dont people understand that HT ISNT going to change things in AH now while there working on AH2???? Is this to difficult a concept for some of you people?You can make all the suggestions in the world,and some of them are great ones,but it isnt going to get done.Just wont happen.Realise it.Deal with it.Live with it,accept it.Lot less stress in your life when ya realise your pounding a passed equestrian.
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Yeah NB, I was thinking that the simple addition of an LST to the fleet and making the LST the "VH" of the fleet might do it.
You might have fleets with LST's and fleets without LST's. In any event, sinking the LST would be the same as killing the VH and it would make CV-based capture unavailable.
There are workarounds, I think.
However, I think we might as well all just wait until AH2: TOD debuts. It's meant to draw the strat types and if it does, that may be the solution right there.
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Here's the fundemental problem with CVs vs. Land bases. A CV will always retain 100% fuel, it's ord, its ability to spawn gvs and PTs. Land bases, however, can have those things destroyed. Now lets look at the more subtle differences:
Ack: CV seems like hundreds of super fast firing auto ack, 14 manable guns. Airfield, 6 to 9 slower firing auto ack, 3 tops manable guns. So getting to the CV is far harder than getting into the Airfield.
Fuel: CV never has to worry about it. Airfield, a couple of rockets or some intense gun fire, bang down to 25%.
Ord: CV, never has to worry about it. Airfield, nail 2 to 4 bunkers and, well, you get the idea.
GVs: CV never has to worry about it. Airfield, 2000 lbs and its over.
Ok enough is enough. So again, tell me where this great injustice is that requires the CV hardness to be increased. I lost sight of it whilst going through the tremendous advantages the CV has.
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Well, here's the short answer in my opinion.
A CV can and will cease to exist after one accurate pass by a level bomber flight.
To take out all flight capabilites at an airfield requires 3 accurate drops, in 2 passes from a single bomber flight, and multiple bomber flights with accurate drops for larger fields.
So in essence, one good bomber pilot can shut down a CV. It takes 2 for a small field, and as many as 6 for a large one.
Forget about Jabos.
Maybe that's the answer. I don't know. Sounded good though.
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Tie the cruisers into CV supply. Loose a cruiser, lose 1/4 fuel. Have 5 cruisers to cover ord and fuel.... maybe the destroyer to cover ord and 4 cruisers for fuel. (or whatever the small ones are called).
Simple way to visuall see what is affected and actually make them viable targets.
I also like having the CV ride lower in the water as it gets damaged as an option too.
MiniD
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Originally posted by JB42
Here's the fundemental problem with CVs vs. Land bases. A CV will always retain 100% fuel, it's ord, its ability to spawn gvs and PTs. Land bases, however, can have those things destroyed.
And CV fights are pretty widely regarded as the "most fun" and "best" fights available on any of the maps.
What a puzzle, eh?
;)
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Muck, are you leading me to believe that a mobile, stealthy attack platform SHOULD be as hard to destroy as a non-movable, always visable airfield? The price you pay for the advantages a CV group has over its land based cousins is that it need to be watched and taken care of.
A properly executed CV attack should have the airfield suppressed and not allowing anything from the attacked airfield up to kill the CV. Thats when the clock starts ticking. Can the CV based attack capture the airfield and redirect the CV group BEFORE bombers from a distant airfield destroy it. Man thats good stuff. Sounds like something straight out of Hollywood.
But no, what the carrier dweebs want is to be able to vulch an airfield indefinantly. A harder CV means 10 more minutes of vulching.
Being in a squad that doesnt fly off carriers, I too appreciate the battle against a CV group. But I also look forward to it ending and hopefully being successful in the airfields defense. The idea of endless inbounds off the carrier with no end in sight is horrible.
Successful carrier based attacks can be done. Just get off the vulch and destroy wagon and do the things needed to capture a base.
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JB42-
I'm not leading you to believe anything. You were talking about the advantage a CV has over a ground field. I was simply pointing out it's one disadvantage. Even a putz like me can sink it in one pass with a flight of B-26's.
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But no, what the carrier dweebs want is to be able to vulch an airfield indefinantly. A harder CV means 10 more minutes of vulching.
Exactly.
It also means 10 more minutes of kamikaze from suicidal dorks, and two more attempts of CV hunting buff runs from us weenies.
Which, will sink the CV, and then people will come to these boards and start whining to double the CV strength and numbers yet AGAIN.
And then what? The whole process will repeat itself until a CV group becomes the Death Star, which wipes out every base in its path in invincibility. And then, people will come here and whine how CVs are ruining other bases and people can't enjoy a good furball between CVs and land bases, this time, whining that the land bases are too weak.
Great, a gigantic 500 man DA. That's what you guys want, isn't it?
But hey, we've already got the DA... if so many people agree to your criteria on MA fun, then gather them around and go play a gigantic furball battle in the damned DA where its meant to, sheesh, instead of trying to turn the MA into one.
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Ahhh but the DA doesnt give perks does it? Its not always about fun,score makes the fun for most.If DA gave perks you could bet your bellybutton they would go for it then :eek:
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Right.
And these same line of people who are whining, are people who say they have either thousads of perks, or hate any super planes or vehicles that have to do with expensive perks?
Don't make sense, Dea.
The only thing the MA offers which the DA doesn't have, is a staggering vulch with shameless seal clubbing - parking the CV, letting the first few unwitting average skill defenders get up, and then blowing them out of the sky again and again and thinking "now this is a 'furball'".
The DA meets perfect criteria.. no buff weenies, no strats, fields really close together ranging from deck to high alts.. so why aren't they in there?
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DA? Perks? What do you need perks for in the DA? everyting is free :rolleyes:
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That was a sarcastic comment.If all the people that loved the furball,and I like em alot myself,were to all go to the DA they could have a blast.The thing is the lack of 2 things keeps them from doing it.1 and the biggest,,,NO perks. 2 and almost as big I would wager.No organisation.If someone came into the MA and said hey,I have an arena in H2H or in DA need "X" amount of furballers I would bet alot went.
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I don't know Dea. I really don't think perks matter to most Furballs.
For alot of folks, it's the comraderie. Some furballers are members of squad who play different aspects of the game. Half the fun in AH is flying with your friends.
Then you've got the fact that you'll have a smaller population in the DA which means killing the same folks over and over. Also, fewer noobs to beat into submission.
Then you've got the problem of lack of recognition. No scores for DA kills. No "Soandso landed 47 kills in his C.205". No ego boost.
Then you've got the problem that the map is always the same, which does not allow the challenge of fighting over unfamiliar territory.
I think those are bigger issues for many folks. More so than perks. And a dedicated furballer once said...I forget who it was, Furballers don't need organization.
That being said, I have seen numbers in the DA as of late. Not huge but 18-25 at prime time. Thats about 18-25 more than usual.
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Kweassa get off your frikking whining kick. Because I like an idea that you don't like I'm whining?
Stuff it.
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42... it's not just 10 minutes more of vulching.. that's silly to assume that is the case.
Every day I hear something like: Great fight at A59. too bad someone had to sink the cv.
That's right some strat guy comes along and ended a fight 30 people were involved in.
Make the fights longer, many people would love it
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It's unfortunate sometimes though that some on both sides ruin the CV/land battles. The other night there was a good CV battle when the Rooks were trying to invade one of our western islands and the resulting furball was a blast. Had a great time but unfortunately we were forced to sink the CV and end the fun fight. If the Rooks hadn't been so insistant on trying to take our field, we would have continued the fight but they kept spawning LVTs, shelling our town and bombing our fuel and ammo that we finally had to pull the plug and send the CV to the bottom. Of course afterwards the Rooks involved the in fight yelled and cried about the mean Knights taking their ball and going home. Can't blame the strat weenies for that one, all they were doing was protecting a base that was under threat of capture.
ack-ack
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Geez 42.. you're missing the point entirely. Lost of people .. lots of them, feel the cv fights are the most fun. Big Isles really brings this to the fore. Tougher Cv's, longer cv fights, more fun for lots of people, lots of them.
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Perks?
Organization?
YGBSM.
As somebody said, the gulf between us is incredibly wide and there is apparently NO comprehension of what we like to do and why.
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In all my 4 years with Brand-W, I never saw BBS combat like this! I never saw people arguing over game objectives. Here, we have one group arguing for more "fun" (ie. furballs - well, to each his own ) and another group of players who enjoy the combat that arises out of attempts to capture bases in addition to the capture itself. But then we have a sort of subculture that wants to piggyback on the second group, and scoop up as many cheap kills as possible as our foe lies bruised and bleeding on the canvas.
I tend to agree with JB42 about the carrier dweebs. I was once gooning to a base where there were at least 20 CDs vulching the field, but none keeping an eye on the town to make sure it stayed down or covering my approach. My goon got picked off by the lone 190 cherrypicker who had come in from another field. I was left with the very strong impression that their score sheet was their top priority.
Just yesterday, I was at 216 - and DrDea was there - he was about the only guy working with me. Our bish CV was just off 216, but V219 was up and the rook GVs were spawning east of 219 and rolling into the 216 town. DrDea and I were the only two concentrating on keeping the VH down at both 216 and 219. I then set about the task of getting rid of the GVs, as prhim was nearing the area in an LVT.
How much help did I get? Precious little. Far too many guys circling the airfield, and none working with me at the town. Even when the last FH went down, some hopeful dweebs lingered at the airfield- just in case... Rook cherrypickers came in at 15K in their runstangs, and on at least 8 occasions, I got bounced without receiving a 6-call. On at least two of those, the cherrypicker succeeded! It's very hard to set up the right trajectory for a bomb drop and to be constantly checking one's own 6.
We had jehu gooning in at least twice, prhim making repeated LVT runs. We could have taken that base in 20 minutes. But no. Vulch-vulch-vulch is the order of the day. In the end, the outcome was determined by the only factor that seems to govern this game: Numerical supremacy. Bish got the base, but after about an hour.
Folks might say "we want to keep the CV off shore so we can have great fights and furball action", when what they really mean is they want to vulch and pad out their scores and think what aces they are.
It doesn't have to be that way. Rooks took 216 back less than 15 minutes later. Because they planned it and were organised.
I thought "what's the use", and went off to do some cherrypicking of my own. :D
But I can only do that for so long before getting bored, and want to join an organised campaign.
Gameplay in Brand-W was not polarised in this way. But here, some of us have had to make substantial adjustments to accommodate the gaminess and vulch mentality which exists at the opposite end of the gameplay spectrum.
Folks who like the "furball action" can be quite resolute in not going to the DA, and invent all kinds of reasons not to.
But reading between the lines of various threads this past 6 months, and by making my own observations of AH gameplay, I am left in no doubt of the real reason folks don't want to go to the DA: There would be no free piggyback ride.
Harden the CV? That would just swing the game in favour of the carrier dweeb vulchers. (Purple sig text applies) My feeling is that if they want to park the CV close to the target base, they deserve to lose that CV if they don't take the base within 20 minutes.
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Originally posted by DrDea
That was a sarcastic comment.If all the people that loved the furball,and I like em alot myself,were to all go to the DA they could have a blast.The thing is the lack of 2 things keeps them from doing it.1 and the biggest,,,NO perks. 2 and almost as big I would wager.No organisation.If someone came into the MA and said hey,I have an arena in H2H or in DA need "X" amount of furballers I would bet alot went.
First of all....perks are meaningless...I could care less and would gladly give them away.
Secondly....Organization? Where did you come up with this stuff?
Look....no one is trying to tell you how to fly....there are just some in this game that would like to see some changes that would yield the kind of fights that they enjoy....and you have a problem with that?
As to going to the DA....I do that often becuase of the exciting aspects of AH, like darkness and the ease of porking fuel at basis so I have a limited choice of planes to fly if I want to engage the enemy. The bad thing about the DA is a large part of this game we play is not about the fight, but the community and the friends we all have here. So you're solution is to have us isolate ourselves from the community?
It seems to me that the spoiled kids on this block are the uptight strat guys that don't want any options given to others with the exception of what they want for themselves.
My earnest hope is that TOD will carry those who enjoy missions and more realistic WW2 fighter/bomber ops far away from the players who enjoy a fight.
Air to Air combat is why many have played this sim since it's inception....now since strat has been slowly added, you guys feel like we should just go to the DA.....what could be better for a strat player than to march across a map without a fight, then to pat yourselves on the back like the self gratuitous buncha girlscouts that you are?
Bottom line here is this....HT will do what he feels will cashflow his business....hopefully he will accomplish this with the intro of AH2 and that offering will feed us all what we need to have fun, which is what this is all supposed to be about in the first place.
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Folks might say "we want to keep the CV off shore so we can have great fights and furball action", when what they really mean is they want to vulch and pad out their scores and think what aces they are.
How do you vulch a field when the fight takes place over the water and in between the CV and the base?
Trust me....score to players who want the challenge of a fight is not even given a thought. Explain to me how fighting in the weeds, outnumbered, will pad my score?
It seems the style of never engaging without a numerical advantage or an altitude advantage, always landing your kills and never risking your virtual hide will pad a score.
Again....you guys want things your way and feel threatened by the suggestions made by those of us who want to fight heads up....you fear any change and are not even willing to allow us a better enviroment for the lower and faster fights which we enjoy.
In all my years of this, I've never seen such a large and vocal contingent of gutless wonders. I flew WB's for 4 years Beetle...it was about air to air combat, not strat. Your little world is not the norm.
So be it....we all disagree and in the end, Dale will do what he pleases....we will be left with what we get....hopefully the game will offer fun for all of us.
I've had enough bantering back and forth....these discussions have been nothing more than a giant exercise in futility.
Later
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First of all your getting me way wrong.Im no strat player.Im no exclusive furbasller either.I do mostly what the squad is doing when I get in and normaly that involvs fighting between 2 bases.Im not saying Furballers should exclude themselves the MA.What I said was basicly you never see someone com into the MA and say who wants to go to the DA and do some furballing?That could actually be fun till some jagoff started porking the oposition fields or the typical vulchers showed up.Personaly,I would rather furball but as Beetle said,I WILL keep an eye on strat while Im doing it.Gotta be flexable.
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You "go to the DA" guys miss something else that Rude didn't mention.
The DA really doesn't have a "map". It has a bunch of little areas setup for various altitude engagments.
Now, if it had a map, with canyons, hills, oceans, CV groups it would be a much more populated place. ESPECIALLY if there were NO STRAT. I'd be in there pretty much all the time and I suspect the DA population would be much higher than it is now.
Be an interesting experiment to put one of the better small maps into the DA and turn the strat features off.
Beyond that though, all this tearful lamenting of folks that won't "join the mission" and "play like a team" has earned you guys AH2: TOD.
I hope you walk the walk when it comes out. You're getting what you've wailed for; be sure and use it all the time, OK?
We're shore gunna miss yas!
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Originally posted by Rude
C'mon NB:)
You know that by making adjustments which enhance and prolong the faster lower kind of fights, that in of itself will in no way take away from a strat players fun.
I logged on last night and located the largest collection of colored pixels on the map....went to the base which was under attack and found the fuel at 25%...tha's cool I said...I'll just defend here a bit....well, the ack was down and the field was being vulched.
So....I went to a nearby field(sector and a quarter away) grabbed my 38(I'm trying to learn to fly this thing), only to find, yup, the fule at 25%....at that loadout, only the pony could get me to the fight with a chance of rtb'in...at best, a short stay there as well.
So....I went to the next closest field....repaeated the same, fuel at 25%. Now some of you may think that I should have just grabbed from a field 2 or 3 sectors away and wasted 20 minutes gettin to a fight...if so, thats your right. Me, personally, want to engage quickly as I do not have many opportunities to fly.
Now I believe the strat guys should be able to take out fuel....just not with one plane and so easily.
I left the MA and went to the DA where guess what? It was getting dark....in the DA it was getting dark? What's up with that?
Hopefull, HTC will fix the dark DA issue.
All we want is for the hordes of strat super missions to earn their victories and not just sit on folks and give them no options. Multiple CV's would help accomplish this while only giving the strat guys more strat targets which should give them a woody I would think?
Do you disagree?
in all honesty I dont like having loads of fields porked for fuel but i will say this , you are ignoring the fact that maybe 20 or so players have enjoyed themselves knocking down that fuel. maybe more if it was a couple of big missions that did it. You are also ignoring the fact that had you been there sooner you would have been able to fight those players AT those rear fields.
Im 99% sure that somewhere on that map as you entered there was a base with full fuel some 1 or 2 sectors from an enemy base. Ok so no one was flying there? well if you go there maybe they will start to defend it? If you want to continue to fight there you had better stop all hose attacks :)
Its the same old thing. AH is like NB said a multi-faceted game. The tools are there to destroy and defend and people are allowed to use them. If you dont like fuel being porked then you must defend your bases, organise attacks or resupply etc. If you dont WANT to help stop the fuel being hit but prefer to just fight aircraft and ignore the ground war stuff then you cant expect others to care when you complain its down and your fun is being ruined. Half the people you are complaining to have had a successful and fun fight or attack in order to take out that fuel. They might be thinking I cant launch in this area as theres too many enemy aircraft, If i destroy the 2 bases X and Y they wont be able to return.They kill those bases unapposed and whos to blame? :)
like i said i dont like it either when i cant find fuel but then its the same for everyone and everyone could if they desired stop it happening.seems instead they prefer to just complain and let those attacks get through.
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Wasn't "fly what you want, whatever way you want, and don't whine about it" your criteria?
We are the ones who feel "threatened"? Grow up, please!
...
Nobody isolates nobody. You people isolate yourselves.
You think we have it easy?
Trying to coax and convince people into following strategic suggestions ain't no picnic. The temptation of furballs ruins many things, and one idiot in a mission can ruin everything in one flick of the wrong button. People furball around where we don't think its wise to furball around all the time.
But do we come here crying and slobbering, "the furballers are hurting our existence?".. Who starts these whoopeeed threads anyway? Certainly not us.
The MA has both furballers and strat people. With time, things flux around, and sometimes strategic play seems to lead the game, other times, mindless but action packed furballs are prominent.
It's a compromise between many things, and us strat weenies have learned a long time ago that organizing people to nuts and bolts is impossible, and in many cases, people will choose to ignore what we see reasonable or fit.
Usually people do what they want to do, therefore, when we really feel we have to do something, we do it ourselves. If we can't, then we've learned not to whine about it. Venting at country channel "you idjits", is probably the closest thing that comes near to one of these lame threads.
We mad our compromises and learned to live withit.
I suggest you learn with your own set of compromises. Geez, furballs lasting one~ two hours are pretty common. When one fades away, usually another furball forms some place else. Isn't that enough a compromise?
You want to do that all the time, and don't want us strat guys intervening with that, and you're saying we're trying to isolate you?
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Originally posted by Toad
You "go to the DA" guys miss something else that Rude didn't mention.
The DA really doesn't have a "map". It has a bunch of little areas setup for various altitude engagments.
Now, if it had a map, with canyons, hills, oceans, CV groups it would be a much more populated place. ESPECIALLY if there were NO STRAT. I'd be in there pretty much all the time and I suspect the DA population would be much higher than it is now.
Be an interesting experiment to put one of the better small maps into the DA and turn the strat features off.
Beyond that though, all this tearful lamenting of folks that won't "join the mission" and "play like a team" has earned you guys AH2: TOD.
I hope you walk the walk when it comes out. You're getting what you've wailed for; be sure and use it all the time, OK?
We're shore gunna miss yas!
good idea that doesnt affect anyone in the MA only to please a few, why not email HTC and ask for it toad? Im sure theres hardly a sole in AH that wants the current DA map 24/7
As for AH2 TOD it may not be anything like what people want. We havent played it yet. What i would say is if it is 'right' and does feel just like being in an airforce duringWW2 then i willl want to be in there most of the time. The ma I'll use for the quick fix stuff and the TOD for serious gaming.I think id split my time between then 70/30 in favour of TOD if its 'right'.
If it isnt set up right toad its wrong to claim we got what we asked for. The CT is a prime example. When people dont have to go there they dont bother because 300+ people in another arena looks more inviting, With TOD , hopefully it will look so good that most will try there first then filter out into MA , etc when they feel like a change
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I think he's out of the office right now.
Anyway, I have chatted with him pretty recently without directly discussing the MA. After that, I decided to just wait and see what the TOD does to the MA population.
If all the "join my mission", "play like a team", "protect my goon", "win the war" guys go to TOD and play it every moment they're online to get more rank to wear on their sig block....
we may not need anything changed in the MA. ;)
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Originally posted by Rude
How do you vulch a field when the fight takes place over the water and in between the CV and the base?
It seems the style of never engaging without a numerical advantage or an altitude advantage, always landing your kills and never risking your virtual hide will pad a score.
Rude - saw it yesterday. About 10 bish hovering over the enemy base to beat up a few N1Ks, LA7s, Zekes and Yaks. The bish had taken off from the CV and had flown to the base.
Yes I do try to land my kills. Especially as my plane of choice off the CV is the CHog. I'm not going to throw away 13pp every sortie. I fly the Chog off the CV so that I'm ready when those ju88s come in.
I'm not going to say which style of play is "right" or "best", but what I do observe is that whereas the strat guys look at the map, decide what to do and get on with it, it's the furball guys that are always the ones to whine to HTC to have the game changed - changes to STRAT of all things! In another thread, Furious even whined to have HQ hardened. Gimme a freaking break! It's not enough that buffs have to fly right across the map to get to enemy HQ. It's not enough that they're unlikely to get much fighter support and may be sitting ducks. It's not enough that killing HQ requires a crapload of bombs. It's not enough that the Me163 is now available near HQ as a very efficient buff killer. No. The furballers want things to be even easier still. They want the HQ hardened so that they will always be able to use the map to find furballs.
I don't mind if furballers want nothing more than to furball, but I do object to strat changes to make their lives easier because they can't be arsed to defend their own strat targets because it's not fun.
Anyway, a good thread. I find myself in agreement with JB42, Kweassa and Muckmaw.
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Originally posted by hazed-
. When people dont have to go there they dont bother because 300+ people in another arena looks more inviting,
Tell me, Hazed, how does this fit in with the "go to the DA" suggestions?
:D
As far as the CT, the available tools were given to the players to create what they wanted to create. Now, some may complain that the tools did not allow them to create "nirvana". But they were given as much as was available.
TOD? What's the focus? Scheduled missions with DEFINED OBJECTIVES that require teamwork. Success depends on accomplishing the mission goals, something the "strat" guys venerate. Survival is key for the player's avatar to rise in rank, get more authority, etc, etc.; sounds like the much sought after "death penalty" you hear so much about on this BBS. Rank is awarded, if I understand it correctly, for accomplishing the mission and living, thus a reward system even greater than perk points is in place.
In short, I think all the deep detailed strat, teamplay, lofty goals of winning the war and personal recognition through a high ranking avatar are there.
What else could the "strat" guys want?
You want to know my guesstimate? I think most of the strat players will give it a reasonable try but won't like it. Simply because it's more work than fun.
Which is something that some of us will know intuitively without ever trying it.
Unfortunately, then they'll come back to the MA. :D
Beetle
it's the furball guys that are always the ones to whine to HTC to have the game changed - changes to STRAT of all things!
[/b]
Before you post stuff like this, you should really do a good review of the BBS since beta. Yeah, I know you're a relative newcomer, but the history is there for all to read. Making statements like this just shows you haven't done your homework.
The short version is this: in the beginning, beta, there was essentially no "strategy" other than the old AW type fight and easy base capture. It was a fabulous fun-filled game. However, there were campaigns on this very BBS for a "deeper, more meaningful" style of gameplay. It wasn't the "furball" contingent that made those requests; it was "strat" players seeking changes to strat. And so we arrive here, at this point, where the folks that just want to have fun are shoving to push the pendulum BACK, to reverse some of the overwhelming tide of changes to strat asked for by strat players.
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Question:
Knowing we're not getting any changes until AH2...
What if HT opened up a arena for furballs only? For example, let's say we used the SEA whenever there are no SE's going on. We could make and add maps that are conducive to furballs. We could adjust hardness of strat, and we could dictate what aircraft are available.
If it really caught on, I would think this would elminate the problem of furballers losing thier touch with their community because the furballers would be in the SEA.
Bottom line, I think Rude...er was it Toad...I get em mixed up...is right. Once AH:TOD comes out, strat will set up there, and if it works, the MA would be furball central.
2 problems I see here, though. Say ToD works and the Strats move to the new arena. We're still going to have griefers, 2 week wonders, and bored tools bombing the fuel etc in the MA. Chances are there would have to be major changes in the MA to accomodate Furball Nirvana.
Second problem. Say these changes are made, but ToD flops. You've got the strats coming back into a MA with no strat. This may be a recipe for subscritions being lost. My guess would be if ToD flops, HTC will water it down.
Personally, I can tell you without a doubt, if AH became a game that was a WWII version of quake, I would look elsewhere for my entertainment.
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several things are clear... so long as there is no balance between strat and fun, or worse, there is nothing for one or the other elements to do on a map... there will be animosity
also.. when ah2 comes out it will be interesting to see how many walk the walk of the "this is a sim damn it... it's not meant to be fun!"
Organization is a word that holds meaning to people who worship it... they will never understand that others find it sorta.... wussy. But... much as I elected myself Public Relations Officer Of the BK's.... I will elect myself..
King of the furballers! that's right...supremo... jefe for life, major domo... When lazs is on all furballers will listen intently for my latest plan and organize into a... melle. Thanks muck et all for coming up with this brilliant solution.
and kwea... I actually do have like 12,000 perk points and have no use for em except to up the occassional temp to hunt down the sissy pee 51 fuel prokers when I am absolutely bored to tears.
The CV's need to be tougher to enhance gameplay for a large segment of the AH population. The timid building battlers and walter middy types would be relatively unaffected.. They never really are by furballers in any event.
It boils down to... the strat guys depend on making the map so boring that people are forced to play their boring strat game. They know that us grasshoppers will revert to fun at any chance... they are dillegent in trying to crush any chance fot fun to develop and take people away from the grand hamster wheel of field capture.
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's and...
King of all Noble Furballers
Bane of the timid strat sissies.
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Mr. Toad. :D
I have been here much longer than 6 months, and I don't need to have done any homework to make an observation about the whines of the past six months. I made clear that I was focussing on that period in the sentence which began But reading between the lines of various threads this past 6 months, and by making my own observations of AH gameplay
in one of my posts above. Did you say something about homework? ;)
Muckmaw said Personally, I can tell you without a doubt, if AH became a game that was a WWII version of quake, I would look elsewhere for my entertainment.
I think that's already happened. I know of quite a few people who have suspended play until AH2 comes out.
Hey muckmaw, can you email me please - orangebeet1e@yahoo.co.uk - I have a couple of things to ask you, and you're not accepting emails off the BBS.
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I'm not accepting E-mails off the BBS??
That explains that lack of death threats.
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Originally posted by muckmaw
We're still going to have griefers, 2 week wonders, and bored tools bombing the fuel etc in the MA. Chances are there would have to be major changes in the MA to accomodate Furball Nirvana....
Second problem. Say these changes are made, but ToD flops. You've got the strats coming back into a MA with no strat.
Prob 1:
As long as the numbers are reduced, there won't be so many 40 plane steamroller hordes. So it'll be easy to work around them on the big maps especiallly. 2 week wonders never really are a factor, are they? Easy to kill, even easier to dodge. Only changes I'd contemplate to that new MA environment would be to roll back some of the "strat" so the fights would be better. If TOD offers missions and ranks and making a "life" worth something... who needs zone bases in the MA anymore? Who cares about fuel porking? Those guys won't be in there, right? So take it out. :D
Prob 2:
Of course there's going to be great whining, wailing and gnashing of teeth. The strat guys are going to be fighting other strat guys about the purest form of realistic strat to implement in the TOD. I think HT's solution will be obvious, since it already worked once. The TOD setup will be handed over to the most vocal critics of the TOD... just like the CT.
and then in a cruel turn of the hamster wheel of fate, when disgruntled strat guys come back to the MA complaining, someone will politely point out to them that they go back to the "strat arena".
:)
All hail Laz, King of the Furballers, Emperor For Life, Beloved of the Wingmen!
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Fine Beetle. Ignore history. How conveeeeeeeeeeeeenient!
These changes that the furballers are crying for that upset you so?
How did the need for those changes come about? Given that there essentially WAS no strat in the early days?
Could it possibly be that it was the strat guys that were always the ones to whine to HTC to have the game changed - changes to furballing of all things?
History, chum. Strat is a relative Johnny-come-lately; it was non-stop whining to HTC for changes by the strateegerists that finally drove the furballers to complain.
HT's solution? Draw you own conclusions, but I personally think the TOD is his answer. Right now, I'm content. Because I think good things will happen for those for whom "the fight's the thing" in the not too distant future.
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Herein lies the truth of the matter....
Kweassa's Fighter Stats
vs. Enemies Kills / Deaths + 1
1.36842 (647)
1.33333 (322)
1.5 (345)
Kills / Sorties
0.55319 (1300)
0.66667 (589)
0.9 (352)
Kills / Hour
4.248 (1175)
2.664 (829)
9.324 (267)
Hit percentage
6.59 % (1013)
31.59 % (286)
9.818 % (649)
Points
2337.29208 (1067)
194.70222 (1000)
723.09903 (633)
Muckmaw's Fighter Stats
vs. Enemies Kills / Deaths + 1
0.375 (1910)
0.26667 (1097)
0.75 (805)
Kills / Sorties
0.21429 (2216)
0.28571 (1024)
0.5 (788)
Kills / Hour
2.628 (1865)
1.656 (1063)
10.296 (217)
Hit percentage
5.702 % (1232)
7.06 % (1167)
3.571 % (1163)
Points
596.51182 (1931)
117.89989 (1103)
342.36392 (915)
Now if I couldn't kill anyone in a fighter, then I'de ride in boats, GV's and buffs also.
You guys are Lamb Killers...no wonder you don't get it.
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eeeewwww.. that's gonna hurt.
Look, the funny thing is that these are the kinda guys that say they can find a fite anytime they like.... they say that the map is action packed with something for everyone (if everyone wants one fight per hour).. they say that we are picking on them by pointing to their very public domain stats. They claim to be "strat" and goal oriented but claim that stats are meaningless... they envy the thousands upon thousands of perk points earned by those of us who never care about perk points. ... they claim that the furballers are quakers who fly till they die with no eye toward survival yet the furballers kill and land kills 3 or more times as often as they do even when they are their most timid.
The current maps and strat favor their kind of gameplay. Is this what we want?
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
King of all Noble Furballers.
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Uh-oh, Rude pulled up our scores...Oh no! We suck. Wow, I never knew that. Oh my god, thanks for pointing that out rude.
Why don't you spend a little more time and check last months scores too. Cosidering I've logged 5 hours for this tour, I'm sure you can extrapolate alot.
Have you ever considered that maybe I don't find as much pleasure in furballing as I do in other aspects of AH, therefore I have not practiced it as much, and cannot rack up a 40 kills sortie?
Show me one post where I pretend to be anything I'm not.
I never said I was a furballer, or that I was any good at it. My only reason for even posting to these threads is to offer some ideas to the guys who do enjoy it. I've become interested in dogfighting more of late, but I guess I'm not good enough to comment on these threads, huh?
I'll have to file an application to Jefe-For-Life to comment on furball threads. Now where are those forms...
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Lazs-
I can find a fight anytime I like. The difference between you and I is what we consider a good fight. Having only been flying for furball 50% of my online time for the past 6 months, I've not have a chance to become jaded, or disgruntled with the quantity of dogfights I find.
Look, your happy getting into a knife fight, and getting kills lotsa kills, and with any luck, landing with a gallon of fuel and 10 rounds left. Good for you.
I'm happy flying however I can get an advantage. If I land one kill in an hours flight time, I'm satisfied with myself. These are my goals, no one elses, and this is what I enjoy doing.
So this means, because I don't fly your way, I'm not allowed to comment on gameplay that affects us all? I'm not allowed to offer idea's on ways that may help?
If that's the case, I suppose you have no right commenting on strat related issues?
Is this what you want, Sparticus?
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Beet1e quote: " Folks might say "we want to keep the CV off shore so we can have great fights and furball action", when what they really mean is they want to vulch and pad out their scores and think what aces they are. "
Beet1e my friend, in my case this is dead wrong. I love defending bases, even if the "cv horde" has significantly larger numbers. How can I establish that this is true? Well, look at the plane I fly: mostly P51D. I also fly the spit V some. Obviously, I'm not a CV vulch dweeb. You and 42 have mistakenly derived that this opinion is largely driven by such people. I'm not saying that such people do not exist, just that in my case, this description does not apply. I want the CV fights to last longer because I love the fights a CV attracts. From what I see in the arena, there are plenty of people just like me. Try to name one person who "pads his score" by vulching off a cv... just one.
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Originally posted by Toad
History, chum. Strat is a relative Johnny-come-lately; it was non-stop whining to HTC for changes by the strateegerists that finally drove the furballers to complain.
I doubt that. If you had done your homework, you would know that AH was designed and developed by the same people who created Brand-W. And strat and field capture etc. was in Brand-W when I joined in 1998.
So I put it to you that HTC always intended to add strategy to AH, and that it was not put there in response to whines, though whines there may have been.
Furballing may be older than strat, but that in no way makes one better or more correct than the other. Fact is that if there was only furballing and nothing else, there would be some account cancellations.
I would not stay in a game that offered only furballing. That's partly why I skipped week-1 in Brand-W - there were no jabo planes worth bothering with.
But I have done the furball thing in US Prime Time. Got 9 kills in a CHog one sortie. The fact that even a strat-doofus like me was able to do that demonstrates how little skill is involved - or the meaningless nature of the stats. Either way, the snide put-down of MuckMAW's stats just lawndarted.
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Scary part is, id my stats were like Kweassa's I would consider it a successful tour!:D
I have to hire Mathman as a personal tutor.
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QUOTE Could it possibly be that it was the strat guys that were always the ones to whine to HTC to have the game changed - changes to furballing of all things? QUOTE
Actually HT was looking to meander this way since the begining of the game.It just didnt all come together all at once.I believe they wanted a strat orientated lay out from day one.
QUOTE History, chum. Strat is a relative Johnny-come-lately; it was non-stop whining to HTC for changes by the strateegerists that finally drove the furballers to complain. QUOTE
See above again
QUOTE HT's solution? Draw you own conclusions, but I personally think the TOD is his answer. Right now, I'm content. Because I think good things will happen for those for whom "the fight's the thing" in the not too distant future. QUOTE
The TOD isnt HT's answer to anything but natural progression.You let a game go stagnant and it dies.IE Air Warrior.If you dont keep up with the Jones then the Jones are gonna get your clientel.You shouldnt assume that TOD is just to pacify the Strat types.Im betting alot of the Furball types will give it a shot for the upgraded graphics
Actually TOD isnt going to be a climb in and do whatever you want deal.Theres still going to be a strat aspect in the MA and there should be.Telling Strat orientated people to "GO TO TOD" would be much like them telling the furballers to "GO TO DA" Sure there aimed at the basic premise each wants,but there limited.You cant pick the map in DA and ya wont be able to pick what you want to do in TOD for the most part.You will have options sure,but youll have better options in the DA concerning plane types I would bet then what you want to do in TOD.Furballers have DA or even H2H.Strat types will have TOD.MA will be the middle road for the most part with more inclination twords furballs.Nobody,and some of you need to wake up and smell the coffee on this,NOBODY will have this game "Just the way they want it." Its just not possable to make everyone happy.Take what you can find and make it fun.If its not fun.There are other options out there.Ive flown on many a crappy night when we were gang banged...No dar all night but STILL had fun with the squad.
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Beet1e, I'll pose the challenge again: Name someone who pads his score by vulching off the cv. Let's look at his monstrous score and discuss it.
Beet1e quote: "Got 9 kills in a CHog one sortie"
So you're basing your argument on ONE sortie? and even that was in a perk plane.
Logic: I ate one bad chip. All chips are bad.
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I have to partialy agree with Beetle.Ive seen plenty of times when a base didnt fall instantly,that they just vulched away at the field.When asked "Is there a goon or troops otw?" Reply was always who knows,or no,or I dont know.That and the ever present dont kill all the hangers.Cant vulch em that way.Either way,the fight at the base is not what the furballers want.Between the shore and out over the water is more there style.Making the CV have to stay further out would help this some what.It would tend to keep the fight going a bit longer.It still comes down to defence.If people dont want to take the time to defend then there going to lose objects.
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I've actually had people yell at me over country channel for bombing the last FH at a field that was capped with vulchers.
Whether or not they came off a cv, i can't tell you, but I do ask before bombing a target in many cases now. I'm tryin not to screw up their fun.
Point is, I can't name people, but capping a field and vulching it for score padding is a common occurance from what I've seen.
I guess it's the same as a GV spawn camper.
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Steve. You said
So you're basing your argument on ONE sortie? and even that was in a perk plane.
Well, that's no different from the logic in your argument, in which you assert that people do not vulch off the CV. An argument based on one person - you Beet1e my friend, in my case this is dead wrong. I love defending bases, even if the "cv horde" has significantly larger numbers. How can I establish that this is true? Well, look at the plane I fly: mostly P51D. I also fly the spit V some. Obviously, I'm not a CV vulch dweeb.
I'm not going to name names - it would only inflame. But DrDea knows what I'm talking about - he was there. And there were about TEN guys circling the field, vying for cheap kills.
Yes, the ONE sortie I refer to (which was not the only one which I can support with film evidence) was flown in a perk plane. But it has to be said that most of the (unperked) planes I was up against (P51, LA7, Spit ix) have superior performance, and at no time did I go above about 3K. As previously stated, off the CV I choose the CHog often - for when those ju88s show up.
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THe thing being missed here is that losing the CV is only ONE way a furball ends. The other is the resulting porkage/steamroller.
The longer a CV stays in close proximity to a base, the more "strat-weenies" will start to migrate to that CV to help "finish the capture". Or the more people will come to vulch.
Their perspective is that they are joining the effort to capture a base that is already under way. I doubt most even think about the furball as distinct thing.
So before too long the base is porked, there are a bunch of strat-weenies upping from the CV and the defending sides strat-weenies start to up to take out the CV. Same end result as now.
In other words, while it might be true for conflict to go on longer (ie attacking strat-weenies don't have it together for a quick capture), eventually the result will be the same and it is reallly only the vulchers that derive the benefit.
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On another note that seems kind of hypictrical to me:
Ever notice how the furballers, who say score doesn't matter, ALWAYS eventually pull it up to point up how so-and-so doesn't know what they are talking about?
If they really don't matter, what is the point of referencing them?
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ver notice how the furballers, who say score doesn't matter, ALWAYS eventually pull it up to point up how so-and-so doesn't know what they are talking about?
Incredably insitefull observation.Not bad for little time in the game.;)
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Originally posted by Bubbaj6
On another note that seems kind of hypictrical to me:
Ever notice how the furballers, who say score doesn't matter, ALWAYS eventually pull it up to point up how so-and-so doesn't know what they are talking about?
If they really don't matter, what is the point of referencing them?
Irregardless of whether you look at scores or don't, they give a fair assessment of how a player fights.
Look up mine...tour 23 as an example versus today....big difference. I'm a much better fighter today than I was then. Look at the different aspects of the fighter stats and tell me what you see.
That's the point.
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sorry but... we really don't care about score...
we are not pulling out score to prove our point... we are refering to "stats"... the stats tell how many kills per hour for instance a guy who claims he has not trouble finding a fight gets... If he has only a few kills per hour then he is indeed having trouble finding a fight or he simply has no idea what "finding a fight" means. score and stats are two different things.
lazs
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Or hes not "Winning" those fights.Doesnt show how many he got into by ANY means.He might be finding them,but not surviving them all.Stats and scores show squat.Just who puts in the most time.Its just like AW in that respect.
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Originally posted by beet1e
Folks might say "we want to keep the CV off shore so we can have great fights and furball action", when what they really mean is they want to vulch and pad out their scores and think what aces they are.
Ahh....the reply of a timid pilot.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Toad
The DA really doesn't have a "map". It has a bunch of little areas setup for various altitude engagments.
Now, if it had a map, with canyons, hills, oceans, CV groups it would be a much more populated place. ESPECIALLY if there were NO STRAT. I'd be in there pretty much all the time and I suspect the DA population would be much higher than it is now.
Be an interesting experiment to put one of the better small maps into the DA and turn the strat features off.
One of the reasons why I've always advocated a Fighter Town like map for the DA and even changing the name to Fighter Town.
ack-ack
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It simply won't wash Beetle.
The current evolution of strat in this game was primarily player driven through this BBS.
The bomb sight threads and the supply/resupply threads are two good examples.
We initially had the simplistic Brand W field capture. It worked, it was all most of us needed and the fun was non-stop.
It's the evolution from there that has brought us to his contentious point.
And no matter how you dodge and dance, it was the whining for "more strat" that led to the present unbalance. Now you try to say it's the furballers that want to change strat? Yeah, change it BACK to what it was before the strat guys started whining to "change strat".
It's all here on this very BBS.
******
As for TOD, I'm content to wait and see. I have enough reasons to believe I know its intent that I look forward to brighter days in the MA for us girls that just want to have fun.
Time will tell.
If the strat oriented TOD doesn't achieve what I'm thinking it will, there is always the option of asking HT for the keys to the SEA whenever it's not in use or asking for a shot at overhauling the DA into a "map" environment. Some of the available maps (the CT Okinawa map for example) can be great furball maps given the right set up. I'm willing to take the time to learn some terrain editing/CM functions if that's what it's going to take to maintain my interest in the game.
He gave the CT a chance; why wouldn't he give the fun fighters a chance? I'm thinking a good setup would draw at least as many as the CT.
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Yo, Steve
About last night, I still don't agree with you, but sorry the fight got carried away and turned sour. That goes same for other Rooks, sorry for the cheezy reactions at country channel.
I still think slim did the right thing, but of course, you won't agree. But all's well that ends well, everybody at A5 did a good job, and no doubt you were doing terrific over there.
Sorry for the messy debate. I apologize.
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dea... if you pull the kills per hour stat and the kill per death stat you will have a pretty good idea of how timidly someone plays or, how hard a time he has finding a fight. score is meaningless but stats are important.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
dea... if you pull the kills per hour stat and the kill per death stat you will have a pretty good idea of how timidly someone plays or, how hard a time he has finding a fight. score is meaningless but stats are important.
lazs
To quote from the classic movie Animal House, BULL****. :D
Stats are just as meanless as score when used to try and judge someone else. Scoring is in the game because dweebs demand a way to count coup. Attemping to attach anymore meaning to it than that is inane. Why? Because YOU are the only one that knows how you play. Stats can be an indicator. But, never are they the end all..be all in judging either skill or play style.
I will use my experience yesterday as an example. I spent the majority of my online time flying high in the mountains in an attempt to intercept the buff dweebs harassing the gv players in tank town. That is definitely not conducive to having an impressive K/T. Whether you know it or not, I also spent an hour or so furballing with the Bish at 94. Got some kills, got kilt, had fun.
The point is... to rely on stats to judge play style is as inaccurate as relying on them to judge skill. :)
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Yea I guess you could...Just never looked at that stuff.Detracts from my auger time ya know:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Toad
It simply won't wash Beetle.
The current evolution of strat in this game was primarily player driven through this BBS.
The bomb sight threads and the supply/resupply threads are two good examples.
We initially had the simplistic Brand W field capture. It worked, it was all most of us needed and the fun was non-stop.
It's the evolution from there that has brought us to his contentious point.
And no matter how you dodge and dance, it was the whining for "more strat" that led to the present unbalance. Now you try to say it's the furballers that want to change strat? Yeah, change it BACK to what it was before the strat guys started whining to "change strat".
It's all here on this very BBS.
Can you prove to me that HTC implemented the current strat model in response to player initiatives? How do you know that HTC didn't intend to implement the current strat model with or without the BBS whines? The suggestion that you make is that HTC acted directly upon requests posted on this BBS to meet the desires of one particular group of players but to the detriment of many others. Now granted, that did happen over at Brand-W (after pyro and hitech had left, and we were on the v2.6 slippery slope), but I don't think it's HTC's style.
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I think there is more to it than this BBS.
I can't cite many examples, but look at HT's adoration of Submarines. He's been talking about putting them in since day one because his father was a submariner...at least I remember hearing this.
Subs have nothing to do with dogfighting, and everything to do with strategy.
Also, I don't recall anyone ever asking for a sub before HT mentioned it for the 1st time.
Just something to ponder, I suppose.
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Beet1e, call Grapevine and ask him. He'll chat with you if he's not real busy or taking a break. You wouldn't believe me anyway, so go to the source.
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Kweassa, it was an impassioned moment. It was good to debate it, and see each others views. I should have left the name calling off the table. I have always enjoyed flying with you. I'm sorry I got carried away.
The truth is, I really wasn't that upset over the cv being moved. I did feel, and still do, that it was impolite of slimpikn to wrest control of the cv from me without even discussing what he felt was best for the cv. Forget the strat-furball debate(let's face the two go hand-in-hand, anyway), the cv wasn't abandoned in the middle of an enemy horde, so I feel I was dealt with discourteously.
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Beet1e,
Your quote:
"Well, that's no different from the logic in your argument, in which you assert that people do not vulch off the CV. An argument based on one person - you"
Beet1e, that's not fair. I did not assert that people do not vulch off the cv. In fact, I went so far as to say:
" I'm not saying that such people do not exist,....."
What I am saying is this: The best furballs on Big Isles almost always involve a cv. Do you disagree?
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I would go so far as to say the ONLY furballs in Big Isles are off CV's..
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Steve - No, I don't disagree. I enjoy carrier ops. Always did - even back in WB. But my reasons for enjoying them are probably not yours. In WB, you could do stealth jabo runs in an F6F or F4U. Hit the radar, then take your time with the rest. No bardar. No flashing map. No "base under attack". Some might call that a milk run, but hardly. You had to pop up to make the bomb run - and appear on dar, albeit briefly. Even if it was a milkrun, the fact of capturing a base in the middle of enemy territory could really set the sparks flying!
In AH it's different. The game is set up in such a way to make a furball more likely, owing to the multitude of warnings of an impending attack that are issued. It's OK, and of course there will be a massive furball, but that's not what floats my boat because the outcome will be determined by the one thing that determines everything else in the current version of this game. Clue: 4th book of the Old Testament
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The only real strat in AH is.... The country with the numbers steamrollers the country with the least numbers and the other country either helps or is irrelevant.
sooo... enjoy the fight. That's all there really is. everything else you can do offline somewhere.
lazs