Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: udet on August 06, 2003, 04:03:17 PM
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the elliptical wing was pioneered by a small firm in germany building light planes that exhibited awesome performance. Then Heinkel took the idea and built the He70, which was one of the fasters aircraft in the world when it appeared. One example went to Britain, to be tested with a British engine. The tests were witnessed by a memmber of the Supermarine design team and so the elliptical wing appeared on the Spit.
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The minor efficiency gain of the eliptical wing is overrated, that's why so few planes use it.
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i heard the germans invented the P51, maybe thats why it was so inferior to the REAL german planes.
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Originally posted by john9001
i heard the germans invented the P51
And that is true. Edgar Schmued (Ex-Messerschmitt designer) and Raymond Rice were the fathers of P51 at North American Aviation.
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Was the eliptical wing shape a fair trade for the H-P slats used on the 109?
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That smued guy did some minor electrical work on the P-51. Don't think that calling him a "father" of the P-51 is very accurate.
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Originally posted by Urchin
That smued guy did some minor electrical work on the P-51. Don't think that calling him a "father" of the P-51 is very accurate.
I think it is. Schmued was the Chief Designer of NAA and he was in charge of the design of the P-51. See:
Who Made the Mustang (http://www.airandspacemagazine.com/ASM/Mag/Index/1996/AS/wmtm.html)
Quote:
"But if the airplane was a team effort, its character was the work of a single man. No one disputes that that man was Edgar Schmued."
MANDOBLE:
Schmued never worked for Messerschmitt or for any other German aircraft company. (He eventually met Willy Messerschmitt when he visited Northrop in 1953).
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http://m2reviews.cnsi.net/reviews/axis/luft/cleaver32109.htm
As Edgar Schmued, designer of the P-51 and a product of the Messerschmitt company once told me, "After the 109E was put into production, it was clear to me that if one wished to participate in the development of a truly world-class aeroplane, one would have to do it elsewhere than at Messerschmitt."
http://m2reviews.cnsi.net/reviews/allies/us/cleaverp51.htm
in 1981, Edgar Schmued, designer of the Mustang, came out to Chino for a 40th Anniversary celebration of his most famous work at The Air Museum, "Planes of Fame." Mr. Schmued began his career at the Bayerische Flugzeug Werke in Munich in 1934, and left in late 1937 when certain political idiots started investigating aspects of his family history. (Thank God, if World War II had to be fought, we got to fight the morons of the Nazi Party.) As a young engineer, Schmued had been involved in most of the detail design work that went into the creation of the Bf-109. "I was working on a fighter design of my own all that time, refining it with new information, waiting for an opportunity," he said. "Yes, the Mustang was built in 120 days, but I had been designing it for five years."
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They were good at railway car design as well.
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Been to India lately Dowding?
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The benefit of the elliptical wing is rated as 5-10% less induced drag compared to a tapered/square wing. That is quite a bit, but is reduced by the somewhat less favourable aspect ratio. However, another plus is the increase in wing area leading to a lower wing loading.
The truly elliptical wing will stall all the way through at once, however later than other wing designs.
The Spitfire wing was not absolutely elliptical, but very close to it.
While giving the aircraft some aerodynamical benefit, its main disadvantage was the manufacture part.
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Who designed the P51s wing? The wing is what makes the plane.
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TimRas, Schmued worked as main designer for Messerchmitt and Fokker before becoming chief designer for NAA and P51.
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Originally posted by MiloMorai
Was the eliptical wing shape a fair trade for the H-P slats used on the 109?
It definietely didn`t worth it. Those large elliptical wings come with large drag during all flight conditions, and behave just as poor or worser during high angles of attack as other wings, as on the larger surface turbulance was more pronounced under G.
The automatic leading edge slats, first developed, patented by German pilot and engineer Gustav Lachmann in February 1918, whereas his compatriot Mader was experminting with trailing edge slats at Junkers, as did Handley-Page. After the war Lachmann joined the Handley-Page firm, bringing his patent.
Slats deploy only before the stall happens - , greatly increasing lift and control, and keep up the airflow which would be lost by that time to turbulance on "normal" wing designs. Under these conditions, they increase lift mightily, by 60% compared to normal wings close to stall.
On the top of that, there`s no wing area and associtated drag increase, as the slats only deploy when they are needed. This way it was possible to build planes with with smaller wings and small drag, making the plane fast, yet still possess equal, and, under G, even better stall and handling characteristics than a plane simply designed with big wings and large drag. It proved tp be a major advancment in wing design, and was used by a number of advanced fighters during the war - by practically all Messerscmitts, ie. Bf 109, Bf 110, Me 210, Me 410, Me 262, and the LaGG-3, La-5 and La-7. Today a great number of modern fighters, like the F-14 Tomcat, continue to use this device.
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Originally posted by VO101_Isegrim
It definietely didn`t worth it. Those large elliptical wings come with large drag during all flight conditions, and behave just as poor or worser during high angles of attack as other wings, as on the larger surface turbulance was more pronounced under G.
Are the spit wings then just an exception to that rule?
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Why would they be? If elliptical wings would have been such a great idea, everyone would have been using them..
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Again, the elliptical wing was very unpractical in manufacture, however offering a certain aerodynamical benefit.
The merits of the ellipse: Lower induced drag pro square
The loss: more wing area than perhaps necessary, causing induced drag.
Another merit: lower wing loading leading to lower A of A during flight, decreasing drag again, - especially at lower speeds. Putting it like Theo Ostercamp: the Spitfire was flying with the nose much more level than our 109's, - surely a benefit.
Comparing those two fighters BTW will give the Spit the edge in regard of the ellipse (roughly 5% less induced drag for the wing size) and the wing loading is a lot less (roughly a third)!, while the 109 has a more favourable aspect ratio.
The all over results are quite interesting, - the two planes are very much alike in performance, with the speed cup going to the 109 if anything, while the aerobatics cup goes to the Spitty.
BTW, an elliptical wing is sometimes referred to as an "aerobatic" wing.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Mr. Schmued began his career at the Bayerische Flugzeug Werke in Munich in 1934, and left in late 1937 when certain political idiots started investigating aspects of his family history.
My info is from Ray Wagners biography of Schmued ("Mustang Designer"). It says that Schmued emigrated to Brazil in 1925 and from there to US (to stay) in 1930.
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No, but they probably have better railways than us (although not as good as ze Germans who have always been good at that sort of thing).
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"Edgar Schmued was born al Hornback, Germany, 30 December 1899. At age eight, he first saw an airplane in flight and decided that aviation was to be his life's work. Edgar embarked early on a rigorous program of self-study to become an engineer, and later served an apprenticeship in a small engine factory. He also designed several innovative engine components for which he received patents. In his spare time, he continued the self-study of aviation. His experience in Germany led to employment with the General Motors Corporation in Brazil, and later with a General Motors subsidiary in the United Stales, the Fokker Aeroplane Company, where he began his career as an airplane design engineer.
In 1935, North American Aviation (NAA) was formed in Los Angeles, California, from General Motors. The talented and inventive Schmued by now a citizen of the United States was employed by North American in early 1936 as a preliminary design engineer and later became Chief of Preliminary Design. During his long tenure at NAA, he contributed greatly to the design of many airplanes.
By far his most famous design was the highly successful P-51 Mustang of World War II. His adaptation of the then new laminar flow wing and other innovations made the P-51 performance outstanding in all respects and its flying qualifies superb. This aircraft was still winning races and setting speed records for piston engine-powered airplanes decades after its production had ended. Edgar Schmued died at Oceanside, California, on 1 June 1985."
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For me, the Air & Space article settles it.
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Schmued sounds like a Jewish name, and that would explain why he left Germany in the 1930's.
Did he work for Messerschmitt? I don't know, but I don't think so. Either way he was a German, and so the P-51 was primarely designed by a German. Historical irony of fate for the LW pilots.