Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Rude on August 07, 2003, 04:23:26 PM
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by Lazs.
In order to sink a CV, you must first sink the support ships.
I mean how great is that for the strat inclined??? More objects to drop bombs on....hold yourselves!!! This could be the ticket!!!!
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I like the idea of not losing a taskgroup until all ships are sunk mo betta.
The ships, other than CV, already respawn themselves. Why not allow the CV to respawn after X amount of time if one of its escorts is still floating? The CV afterall is just a moving FH.
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i think the fleet or whats left of it should have to sail back to a friendly port to replace any lost ships, CV, crusier, etc
hows that for FUN?
And the CV could only carry 90 planes the RL, so when you use them up, back to a port to resupply or ferry them from a land base.
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http://www.fantasyislandonline.com
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It might be more realistic just to have the CV less sinkable....now wait a second...don't throw that!
You can damage the CV to the point that it cannot conduct air ops. After X amount of time, its repaired and comes back. If it gets hit with another X amount of ordinance in X amount of time, it sinks.
Otherwise, I like the LST idea. Sink it, no troops. Still have the problem of pork and augers, though.
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Good idea
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Yep... you could also make it so that there are no troops available is say half the ships are sunk... cv could either then stay and furball or run away... we would see what people really want out of the CV then.
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
King of all Noble Furballers.
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NOT!
Sorry but we've been here done that & tried it.
It blew chunks.
Hence thats why we have the system we have now.
The ONLY way it would work is as soon as 2 support ships are sunk the CV ignores waypoints & heads back to port to replace em.
Otherwise you end up with hordes spawning planes, lvts, pt's and no way to stop them. They become a juggernaut that can kill any field even close to an ocean.
Your way would result in even more of a land grap race than now, with no real defense possible.
So you'd never find that furball your looking for.
Why do you think you have people suicideing into CV's now? Its the only feasable way to stop them.
What needs to happen is for ships to have parts that are damaged. Show damage, & cease working.
A torp hit into a cv should cut its speed in half. Bomb hits on cruisers should knock out turrets.
There should be obvious visual clues that tell you at a glance the situation.
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why not have 2 troop ships and 2 fuel tankers in the TG?
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Not bad ideas at all.
Also, and I may be nuts, but I think in the old warbirds it used to be the fleet didnt get replaced until all the ship were sunk.
You could strafe and bomb the guns on ships too, liked that a lot.
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Going up? :D
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ghost... if you couldn't spawn pt's or lvt's when 2 or three escort ships were sunk that would solve the problem no? those who wanted to furball would and those who wanted to take fields would go somewhere else unless... The CV would be no threat to the land base except for destruction of resources I doubt that the furballers on the CV would kill all the fighter hangers tho.
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
King of all noble Furballers
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Rude: How about we just give the CV ships a real damage model?
Just like an airfield: you can't totally destroy an airfield, other than destroying all the objects, but you can knock it out of action.
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No don't like the idea
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The "sink all the ships" idea does nothing really lazs. The CV will still be the first to go. Also, I think you've not had much experience with a CV after all of its support ships have been downed. It is quite vulchable. Saw this happen just the other day. Harder to sink at all costs is not the way to go about it.
MiniD
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No. The CV shouldn't have a magic shield that protects it if there are other ships around it.
If people didn't park the CV just off shore, there wold be less people trying to suicide bomb it.
I would rather see the support ships start meaning something, or the CV get limited supplies before it had to be replenished.
Make troops killable on a CV - either by a troop transport ship that carries them, or a certain amount of bombs dropped on CV.
Make fuel killable - either by support ship or bombs dropped on CV
Make ords killable - either by support ship or bombs dropped on CV
Make AA guns killable by hitting them.
The CV is left parked off shore because no one knows how badley it has been hit until it sinks. Make it have some measurable amount of damage and then captains might start moving it to more defendable areas or leaving further out to sea where it belongs.
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Ive said it before and ill say it again, make the CV's unsinkable by bombs and only torpedoes can sink them.
after all why have torpedoes if they arent worth using?
In WW2 it was well known that level bombing ships was futile yet in AH it is the easiest method. Why is that? why dont we make it so in order to kill them you have to use the right tools for the job, ie torpedoes.
However we do need to increase the speed of torpedoes on ratio to the ships. What i mean is i believe at the moment the fleet travels far faster than they would have in order for them to be usefull in this game. If the real speed were say around 15 knots and in AH they are 30 knots then as this is double their usual speed we should make it so torpedoes also are speeded up to twice their speed.
As the game is now the torpedoes are pretty much outrun by the fleet making anything, short of an accurate and tricky drop, useless. We should have a little more chance for lucky shots i think in AH which could encourage their use.
so thats it, unsinkable by bombs, sinkable by torpedoes, increase speed a little of those torpedoes.
(perhaps we could allow certain bombs like the 3800kg stuka bomb and the 4000lb lancaster bombs to be able to penetrate and sink a ship as they are big enough for the job and could simulate AP bombs which mostly had to be used to peirce decks of ships)
If you read about real ships and how manyhits they took to sink this sort of model wouldnt actually be far from reality. ships often took several torpedo hits as well as many bomb hits to actually finaly sink.AH should be no different.
Perhaps we could introduce a damage scale to the ships?Give them realistic armour too like armoured rings of thicker plate at the water line,armoured decks etc, have them List to one side when severely damaged thus exposing their unarmoured underside to torpedoes due to their armoured ring(used to protect against torps) being lifted clear of the sea one side and sunk into it the other.
In AH this would mean you would have to first bomb the fleet in order to make them list over then torpedo them before the ship recovers through resupply etc. It would mean to kill a fleet you would have to get the timing right.
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deja.. I said make the CV's unsinkable until all the escorts have been sunk.. some history there even... the kamikazi's really sank mostly escort ships because it was hard to get to the carriers.
hazed idea would work too I guess.. make em vulnerable to torpedos only... anything that keeps em up for a while longer.
I still don't see why if they were unable to launch lvt's or pt's they would be much of a threat to strat. sure.. they could still take down all the resourses at one lousy field if they were dweeby enough to but then it would take em an hour to get close enough to another. Not much of a factor strat wise... plus... they could still be sunk once the escorts were down.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
deja.. I said make the CV's unsinkable until all the escorts have been sunk.. some history there even... the kamikazi's really sank mostly escort ships because it was hard to get to the carriers.
hazed idea would work too I guess.. make em vulnerable to torpedos only... anything that keeps em up for a while longer.
Both these ideas are cheese lazs. If they sank the escorts first to get to the carrier, than we should simulate why that was... not make the carrier invincible. See any thread on the subject where I've suggested turning up the ack.
Same thing applies to torpedo attacks vs bombs. Bombs might have been less effective, but they were used. And if they hit, they would cause a problem. Its all going to boil down to how willing we are to let planes loiter over bomber formations. It used to be that flak stood about a 20-40% chance of getting you before you got close, but furballers and strat guys both complained that this was BS because of all the time they'd spent getting there.
You want the CVs to last longer, keep them farther away from shore and turn up the acks. Do the same at the bases so the incoming horde isn't necessarily as much of a threat as it usually is.
MiniD
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I'd think Midway would serve as the example of the effectiveness of bombs for sinking carriers.
Making a wider "waypoint touches land" buffer would keep the CV's farther offshore and that would be a good thing. I would expect, however, that the LVT base capture faction would want the artificial "spawn points" to be longer in that case.
Turning the ack up would also help the CV last longer, but the counter effect would be more "ack running" of course. I don't have a problem with that though. It seems intuitively obvious to me that it's boring just flying around under your own ack umbrella and pretty pointless too. Eventually, if you give them some space, they will come out an fight... at least the ones worth fighting will and those are the guys we all want to find anyway.
Maybe we could give the guys taking off a carrier a vertical spawn point similar to the LVT's. Give 'em an instant 10K and they'd be in the fight faster. Relax, it's a joke, just a joke.
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Actually, turn the ack up enough and the last thing you want is to have an enemy 400 yards behind you as you fly toward the carrier. Eventually people will figure it out. Oh... but the whines we'd have to endure first.
MiniD
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deja..I have no problem with keeping the cv's away from land and turning up the acks. I think that will work too. I even suggested having coral reefs or whatever 5 miles out so that the carriers couldn't get that close.. All of the suggestions would probly work... the main thing is that CV's generate the best, and in some cases, the only furballs/melles on the big maps.
Anything that increases the time that carrier planes can be launched would be appreciated by a lot of guys.
lazs
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Making a wider "waypoint touches land" buffer would keep the CV's farther offshore and that would be a good thing.
Then you'd have to redesign the maps to cope as there would be places the CVs couldn't go, or, better, give the fleet a routefinding AI.
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I took command of a TG the other night(WOW....what a power trip).
The guy I took it from got all upset....he was driving it right up to the front door of an enemy base.
I just kept it 3/4 of a sector away from the enemy field in a little circle thingie and the fight lasted for a couple of hours.
Unfortunetly, controlling player behavior cannot be accomplished by simply asking...therefore, I am requesting total control of all TG's be given to me and only me, as I will always make the right choice as to what will bring the best fights to me and those who think like me.
Kinda simple eh?
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In reality, Rude, it is just that simple.
You and others with your playstyle can manufacture furballs at will, to a cetain extent.
I'm sure you guys have great ranks, so when you or other well ranked furballers log on, all you have to do is always grab a CV and point her towards the sweet spot.
Only problem I can see is fending off the suicide dweebs, bombers and others who think the CV is a threat to the base. (If it is a threat and the big guns open up, or LVTs spawn, then all bets are off, and we sink it.)
We fought a great battle on Friday or was it Saturday. CV was parked 3/4 sectors south of..I think 97...I can never remember. Nopoop, APache, levi were there. They might remember where it was. Either way, fight was even, with mayeb 30 planes each. Lasted about 1 1/2 hours. No LVTs, no attempt to capture.
Only problem we had was the base porkers who kept coming off the CV trying to set up a vulch. But the guys spawning GVs kept them away most of the time.
All in all, a great way to spend 90 minutes.
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I'm sure you guys have great ranks, so when you or other well ranked furballers log on, all you have to do is always grab a CV and point her towards the sweet spot.
Herein lies the problem....furballers do not have great ranks....often I lose control of a TG to some player I've never even heard of.
I would not have posted anything regarding these furball vs strat topics if I had control over TG's....so, either HT needs to give me complete control or bases need to be moved a little closer or the CV's themselves need tweaking:)
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Originally posted by Rude
....so, either HT needs to give me complete control...
Pardon me if I don't hold my breath :D.
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Originally posted by hazed-
Ive said it before and ill say it again, make the CV's unsinkable by bombs and only torpedoes can sink them.
after all why have torpedoes if they arent worth using?
Make the CVs unsinkable by bombs and the battle of Midway becomes impossible.
In WW2 it was well known that level bombing ships was futile yet in AH it is the easiest method. Why is that? why dont we make it so in order to kill them you have to use the right tools for the job, ie torpedoes.
In WWII, carrier task groups under attack by level bombers would change course randomly to deny the bombers a tracking solution. In AH, the CVBG plows on straight ahead, ignoring attacks, until it reaches its next waypoint.
However we do need to increase the speed of torpedoes on ratio to the ships. What i mean is i believe at the moment the fleet travels far faster than they would have in order for them to be usefull in this game. If the real speed were say around 15 knots and in AH they are 30 knots then as this is double their usual speed we should make it so torpedoes also are speeded up to twice their speed.
This has been a running sore point with torpedoes ever since they became available; the CVBG is continuously moving at air-ops speed, which makes torpedos worthless except from ahead of the group.
(perhaps we could allow certain bombs like the 3800kg stuka bomb and the 4000lb lancaster bombs to be able to penetrate and sink a ship as they are big enough for the job and could simulate AP bombs which mostly had to be used to peirce decks of ships)
If you read about real ships and how manyhits they took to sink this sort of model wouldnt actually be far from reality. ships often took several torpedo hits as well as many bomb hits to actually finaly sink.AH should be no different.
Actually, if you look at the publications the US military produced regarding battle damage to warships during WWII, two torpedo hits was almost always enough to leave a ship DIW (Dead In the Water) if not sinking, and three would almost certainly sink any warship.
Perhaps we could introduce a damage scale to the ships?Give them realistic armour too like armoured rings of thicker plate at the water line,armoured decks etc, have them List to one side when severely damaged thus exposing their unarmoured underside to torpedoes due to their armoured ring(used to protect against torps) being lifted clear of the sea one side and sunk into it the other.
Or just set your torpedos to run deep.
Before we clamor at HT to add all kinds of gosh-wow features to anti-ship combat, let's work on fixing the major screws that exist now -- that torpedos can't catch a fleet that is ahistorically continually running at flank speed, and that ships continue to cruise along showing not a hint of damage until they accumulate enough damage to sink.
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Originally posted by NoBaddy
Pardon me if I don't hold my breath :D.
Isn't that the truth:)
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"Herein lies the problem....furballers do not have great ranks....often I lose control of a TG to some player I've never even heard of. "
(Not claiming to be a hardcore furballer......yet)
This is a problem. On Friday night I had a TG off A5(trinity) and there was a massive furball there for well over an hour. The bad guys were furballing and furiously trying to sink the cv. We were furballing and defending. Probably 30 people per side. No vulch was attained as the defese was too tenacious. Then a guy named "slimpickn" took control of the cv from me and moved it farther away.(he didn't even bother to discuss the situation..just grabbed it)
As the CV left, the furball pretty much died. The guys at A5 lost interest, and the base was reduced to rubble, after the requisite vulch. Slim and a fellow strat guy and I then got into a heated discussion about the whole thing. They claimed that withdrawing the CV allowed us to regroup and take the base. IMO the defenders merely lost interest and went elsewhere(enemy plane numbers dropped dramatically as the cv got further and further away) The strat guys claimed they had saved the cv from certain death. I argued that it had been sitting offshore for over an hour w/out being sunk, ergo it was fine. Of course, the 2 strat guys argued that the base was now ours, so they were right and I was an idiot......never mind that they had ended a furball that over 50 people were participating in.
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I hear ya Steve....ya see, if they all would just listen to me, everything would be fine.:)
Best thing to do is to just wait for AH TOD....send all of them mishun doods off to greener pastures....then and only then will real men like ourselves be able to pound our chests and yell like Tarzan after we've bested someone who actually knows how to fight:)
Cyas Up!
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Originally posted by Rude
Best thing to do is to just wait for AH TOD....send all of them mishun doods off to greener pastures....then and only then will real men like ourselves be able to pound our chests and yell like Tarzan after we've bested someone who actually knows how to fight:)
Cyas Up!
Rude...
I think it just might be possible that AH TOD will not have a major impact on the MA.
psssssst ( not gonna hold my breath on this on either :D :D).
Something no one seems to want to point out is that field captures are the reason that CV furballs occur. Generally, the vast majority of players in one of these are there to either defend or attack a field. Like anything in RL...they will eventually end. If you get an hour or more of instant action, what is the problem?? (seriously, I'm not trying to be a bigger bellybutton than normal...I would like to know :))
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"....hold yourselves!!! "
Personally, I like this idea best. :)
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Originally posted by NoBaddy
Rude...
I think it just might be possible that AH TOD will not have a major impact on the MA.
psssssst ( not gonna hold my breath on this on either :D :D).
Something no one seems to want to point out is that field captures are the reason that CV furballs occur. Generally, the vast majority of players in one of these are there to either defend or attack a field. Like anything in RL...they will eventually end. If you get an hour or more of instant action, what is the problem?? (seriously, I'm not trying to be a bigger bellybutton than normal...I would like to know :))
I agree NB....I heard from a little birdie that perhaps 5% will flee the glee of the MA.
I can't really speak as to what the intent of most of the guys involved in these cv vs base fights is.....I simply fly to kill folks....have no interest in the capture thingie as that usually ends the killin folks thingie:)
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5%? That's going to be a problem. If there is no one to fight in the arena, it will die on the vine.
If this ToD does not work out, the MA will be tougher to make into the furball utopia your hoping for.
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Originally posted by muckmaw
5%? That's going to be a problem. If there is no one to fight in the arena, it will die on the vine.
If this ToD does not work out, the MA will be tougher to make into the furball utopia your hoping for.
TOD will hopefully draw new customers.....5% of the subscribership is not too bad.
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Give the Task Force two or three CV's? And if all two/three aren't destroyed in X-amount of time, they respawn? This would increase the difficulty for the bombers without making anything impervious.