Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: hogenbor on August 08, 2003, 05:58:49 AM
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After a year of subscription I finally managed it, I pissed not one, but two people off by shooting them down!
Had a day off, plenty of time on my hands so I logged on. Found some action around A84/83, got jumped by an La-7 I never saw and was shot down, managed to kill a B-17. Usual stuff for me.
The I took off in a P-51D from A85 with 100% fuel (no drop tanks available). Got to A85 to give air cover but by the time I got there I only saw a Spit way above me. Climbed away a bit but he gave chase. A friendly carrier was situated conveniently in the vicinity so I dived towards that and the Spit broke. After a few minutes of cat and mouse he went away, I climbed until I got some altitude, found him on radar and started chasing him again. After again some minutes I saw him, he dove to the deck and broke again. Tried to hit him but missed a few passes. Good pilot. Still had E advantage so every time he tried to get away I followed him. Then two of his friends turned up, one in a N1K2 so I gave up on the Spit and flew back towards A84. The N1K2 kept on following me but with my superior speed I just kept him at arms length. I don't want to fight a N1K2 close in with a heavy P-51D. This went on for quite a long time until I dragged him up to 17k(!). I even was AFK for several minutes but he didn't want to give up. Then I saw a second red dot appear above A84 and as I had plenty of separation by now I reversed, and went full speed towards A84. After a long chase I spotted a second N1K2 heading for home (A83) and on the deck. I closed in fast from his dead six, he never saw me and blasted him into oblivion. Then I climbed back up and headed towards A84 again, dangerously low on fuel by now. The second N1K2 was still around, hovering above the field and trying to vulch a guy called Deadrabit. I figured 'what the hell' and went for him (the N1K2, not Deadrabit), he broke but I managed to shoot his wing off with a high deflection shot. Seconds after that I ran out of fuel, glided in and made a succesful landing.
But after this the two N1K2 pilots (name withheld) started calling me a wuss and a kiddie because I ran away and refused to fight on their Nikidweeb terms. I admit to being a wuss but there is no denial that I did shoot them both down. I just fought on my own terms and survived. Isn't that the whole idea of surviving as a fighter pilot? There might be people who can win a fight in a Fw-190A-8 when cornered by 5 A6M's, but I'm not one of them.
Still
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Hell I piss off people all the time and I don't even have to shoot at them!
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Me too... that's why I longed for the day I could manage that in AH by simply shooting people down, not by being quite unbelievably socially inept like some people I see on-line and on the boards. And by this I really don't mean the two Niki pilots.
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Your obviously scared to death of the N1K and probably will never learn how to beat it with your current strategy.
You didn't fight them on your "own terms" ... you just picked them off when they were engaged with something else or RTBing.
You drained the tanks on a P51 and all you had to show for it was two kills which really didn't involve any fighting ... what did you learn ACM-wise on that sortie ? ... nothing .
edit : uncalled for line ... sorry
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WTG Hogen..
You used every advantage your plane and your situation gave you, and won.
I would have done the same thing. Pehaps you did not learn the knife-fight style of dogfighting, but your sortie was successful in keeping with the spirit of Aces High. Win your engagement, and survive.
Using a P-51 to turn fight with a NIKI is just suicide. Why give someone an easy kill.
The most question to ask is, did you have fun?
Not, "Did you conform to what other people see as bravado".
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He is not the wuss. The pile-its that whined on channel one most definately are.
WTG Hogenbor!! Any time you can make an opponant cry due to defeat on channel one is fantastic . But to get two of them to do it is sensational. Wel done. !!
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Originally posted by SlapShot
Your obviously scared to death of the N1K and probably will never learn how to beat it with your current strategy.
You didn't fight them on your "own terms" ... you just picked them off when they were engaged with something else or RTBing.
You drained the tanks on a P51 and all you had to show for it was two kills which really didn't involve any fighting ... what did you learn ACM-wise on that sortie ? ... nothing .
At least you admit to being a "wuss".
bahh dont talk crap. This may be true if you flew like this when you had the same aircraft but when its a case of turn around fight and die or keep climbing untill you have a safe route to attack then you did the exact right thing. IN MA everyone and anyone wants to grab a kill often shooting already killed planes to do it. Slapshot if everyone was to allow fights to proceed in an orderly manner in MA and everyone was of equal skill then you would be correct but it simply isnt. You say he hasnt learned anything about ACM but he WILL one day when he isnt able to evade a bad situation. If he eventually gets as good as you obviously are (>koff< ahem :)) then he can start using the P51 to itsfull potential. Remember this guy is saying its the first time anyones actually had a go at him for beating them.
If you ask me those 2 nik pilots were doing the exact same thing when they broke to the deck if we go by your way of thinking.
just for fun slapshot, lets say there were 2 of you! one flying the NIK and the other flying the P51 in this fight mentioned. which would be the wuss and who would be the better pilot? :D (btw thats a retorical question) Im just trying to make a point ;)
Hogan you carry on mate and enjoy yourself. When you gain enough knowledge of that aircraft you can start doing special moves but until then you are flying within your limits and it seems being rewarded for it by landing alive with 2 kills. I wouldnt maybe fly like this now but I did once and I could probably do with flying like it again lol. Ive turned into a overly aggressive, impatiant pilot now and often make mistakes just because i want to try out my latest moves. It can go too far the other way too. If you can ballance aggression with patience you'll have it made ;)
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You used every advantage your plane and your situation gave you, and won.
Instead of "won" you should have said "ran".
I would have done the same thing. Pehaps you did not learn the knife-fight style of dogfighting, but your sortie was successful in keeping with the spirit of Aces High. Win your engagement, and survive.
I don't think you would have done the same thing.
Yes ... he learned nothing.
Are you implying that I don't care to rtb and don't fly "with the spirit of Aces High" ?
"Win your engagement" ... there was no engagement according to his story.
Using a P-51 to turn fight with a NIKI is just suicide. Why give someone an easy kill.
Who said you have to turn fight the N1K to beat it. A P51 at 17K with a pocket full of E should have no problem beating an N1K if flown aggressively and in the vertical.
The most question to ask is, did you have fun?
I'll be he did. How long does it take to drain the tanks on a full load of fuel ?
Not, "Did you conform to what other people see as bravado".
Bravado ... LOL.
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Slap,
If you'd like to go over this, send me an e-mail.
With my limited experience and abilities in a P-51, the only thing I know how to do is Boom and Zoom, so I would have done the same thing.
I was implying nothing in regards to how you fly.
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.... You say he hasnt learned anything about ACM but he WILL one day when he isnt able to evade a bad situation. If he eventually gets as good as you obviously are (>koff< ahem :)) then he can start using the P51 to itsfull potential. Remember this guy is saying its the first time anyones actually had a go at him for beating them.
Why does it have to be when someone can't evade a bad situation to learn ACM ?
You gotta get something for that >koff< ... Did I say I was good or is that your interpretation ?
If you ask me those 2 nik pilots were doing the exact same thing when they broke to the deck if we go by your way of thinking.
Maybe so ...
just for fun slapshot, lets say there were 2 of you! one flying the NIK and the other flying the P51 in this fight mentioned. which would be the wuss and who would be the better pilot? :D (btw thats a retorical question) Im just trying to make a point ;)
Neither ... A fight would ensue and I would win either way, but a fight would have taken place.
Hogan you carry on mate and enjoy yourself. When you gain enough knowledge of that aircraft you can start doing special moves but until then you are flying within your limits and it seems being rewarded for it by landing alive with 2 kills.
My apologies hogenbor ... WTG !!!
I wouldnt maybe fly like this now but I did once and I could probably do with flying like it again lol. Ive turned into a overly aggressive, impatiant pilot now and often make mistakes just because i want to try out my latest moves. It can go too far the other way too. If you can ballance aggression with patience you'll have it made ;)
Try is a key word here !!!
I really didn't mean to pick on hogenbor ... I am just frustrated with the fact that the mentallity of most in the MA is to flat out run at the sight of an engagement.
If you fight ... you will learn ... if you run ... you have learned nothing. If you get shot down in a good embattled fight ... there is nothing to be embarassed about ... there is no shame ... so go for it ... thats my point.
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If you fight ... you will learn ... if you run ... you have learned nothing. If you get shot down in a good embattled fight ... there is nothing to be embarassed about ... there is no shame ... so go for it ... thats my point.
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Slap,
No offense to the MAWS but your logic train has skipped the tracks. Now as a former marine, I can attest that anything less then a frontal assault is considered dishonorable, which you certainly appear to be in favor of. However, I wonder if you would be so brave if the bullets were real. There's no shame in fighting to win on your terms.
~Wolfala
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Wolf-
What is that Banana doing to the lemon in you Avatar?
Errr...nevermind.
Slap-
I can see your point. Getting into a knife-fight teachs alot about SA and what you can do in a plane. However, like I said originally, I don't see it being a great idea in a pony. Like I said, my experience in this plane is limited.
If he was in a Spit, or an FM2, and was not outnumbered, extending, or running would be cowardice. He could use those planes to knifefight with the NIkI. Extending, then boom and zoom seems to me to be the right way to approach this situation based on the plane he was in and situation he was facing.
I have little doubt you would have approached it differently, seeing how you are always landing kills. But we are talking about a guy who's somewhat new to this, and whose skills are probably on par with mine, so I can see his point of view.
Now, for everyone's benefit, what would you do, step by step, to win the engagement? Remember, your in a Pony, let's say 1/2 tank, 5K alt advantage over 2 Nikis. No bases or CVs nearby.
If you have time, I'd like to see how you'd approach the same engagement flying an F6F...this is info I can really use.
Thanks.
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Originally posted by Wolfala
Slap,
No offense to the MAWS but your logic train has skipped the tracks. Now as a former marine, I can attest that anything less then a frontal assault is considered dishonorable, which you certainly appear to be in favor of. However, I wonder if you would be so brave if the bullets were real. There's no shame in fighting to win on your terms. Its called knowing your abilities.
~Wolf
Wolf ... thats the point here ... There are NO REAL BULLETS ... so go for it !!! There is no shame is getting beat in this game !!! If you get knocked down, you get back up, brush off the dirt, and try again ... differently.
I have been shot down thousands of times and have shot down thousands ... never once did I flaunt my wins and never once was I ashamed of my losses.
If there were real bullets, I would have stopped playing Aces High the day I started ... the first time I got killed.
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Congrats, Hogen! The most important thing was that you enjoyed yourself. However, this one line from you deserves attention:
There might be people who can win a fight in a Fw-190A-8 when cornered by 5 A6M's, but I'm not one of them.
Players who can do this aren't just hatched; they learn these skills through practice and experience. If you one day hope to win a fight in a 190A8 while cornered by five Zekes, you'll have to put yourself in situations where you are cornered by five Zekes and learn from it. Flying to live is fine, but don't lament that you must fly a certain way because you can't fly another way. Try lots of different flying styles and learn to master each one. Most of all... have fun doing it!
-- Todd/Leviathn
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You will yell, "Today I become a man!" when someone accusses you of cheating.
Till then... :D
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I alvays squelch ch1... :D
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Anyone else get the feeling that maybe Slap was one of those N1k pilots?;)
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what i hate is when them wussy 262's run away from my pee 38, why don't they turn fight me? :D
i always turn chan 1 off.
AKweave, i thought that also...lol
44MAG
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Originally posted by AKWeav
Anyone else get the feeling that maybe Slap was one of those N1k pilots?;)
LOL ... nope 'twasn't me ... don't fly the N1K, but I have been in those shoes too many times lately ... hoping that the guy will turn and fight.
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Tell me about it. Nothing worse than being in an FM2 following a guy 10K above you in a pony, hoping he'll come back down and fight.
It's frustrating, but what can you do?
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Originally posted by muckmaw
It's frustrating, but what can you do?
Sucker him.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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You mean open the canopy and flash nudie pics at him?
Fly around in a circle and look like my aileron is broken?
How do you sucker someone?
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Originally posted by muckmaw
You mean open the canopy and flash nudie pics at him?
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That depends on whose nudie pics they are. You want to sucker him, not nauseate him.
Fly around in a circle and look like my aileron is broken?
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You've got the right idea. The essence of suckering means you make yourself look like as appetizing a target as possible. To that end, you pretend to autoclimb while afk, act like you're floundering with low E, and/or basically present what the enemy feels is a sure kill without danger to himself.
Then, when he bites and blows all that E, you kill him.
Okay, I admit that the killing him part is harder than the suckering part. But you can still work on suckering the guy whether you actually kill him once he comes down or not.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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The way I'm flying these days, I'd be better off if the other planes left me alone...last thing I want to do is entice them.
Seriously, I'll give that a try but I'd be willing to wager 9 times outta 10 that "Sucker" goes home with my scalp.
I really need to get some training in.
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"Now, for everyone's benefit, what would you do, step by step, to win the engagement? Remember, your in a Pony, let's say 1/2 tank, 5K alt advantage over 2 Nikis. No bases or CVs nearby. "
I'm salivating, just reading this. Cmon Slap... tell him.
5K alt advantage, no enemy, no enemy base, no enemy cv in site.
Oh my, excuse me while I go get a towel, I'm drooling on my keyboard.
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Steve-
I'm not sure you read me right. That's the problem with the internet. I'm being sincere. Much like the other thread about how to merge in an F6F, I'm just trying to learn how to be more successful in a dogfight.
If you have an answer, please share it. It would be of great help.
Thanks.
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Muck, I'd love to. If Slap hasn't answered by the time I'm out of a couple of upcoming meetings, we'll discuss it together.
:)
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Mucks got the right idea here...
If you have the knowledge there are those of us (and I put myself at the front of the line) who would love to hear what the good/experienced pilots here would do in those given situations.
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Hogenbor,
Congrats on flyin' a smart and savy sorty. I agree with your reasoning 100%. My main goal when I fly is to have fun. Second most importantly to me is to have fun and survive, with honor. Now, I admit, my main fault is being too imaptient. I love to fly the Pony, but I'll try to turn-fight with anyone, anytime, usually to my chagrin. Wish I had more of your patience. WTG!
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<<"Now, for everyone's benefit, what would you do, step by step, to win the engagement? Remember, your in a Pony, let's say 1/2 tank, 5K alt advantage over 2 Nikis. No bases or CVs nearby. " >>
i would come diving down at full power, spraying them with 50's, and when they broke i would go vert on wep and then roll over on them and "dance on their heads". and they would say "chicken p51 dweeb , turn and fight us, you runstang you"
oh, did you say "win the fight"?... i don't know , shoot them down?
44MAG
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Anything more than about 3 K over an intended solo enemy is too much alt. Otherwise you will be too fast, make his evassives easier, and you make suckering him into a rope improbable. (The guy that chased you for so long would have been an excellent rope candidate, he wanted you too bad)
Nikis are not very fast, so you had lots of options in a 51. Not at all meaning to say what you did was wrong (afterall it worked for ya), just there were some faster ways to go about it.
Congrats anyway, a good niki is a dead one - 2 dead ones even better :)
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Originally posted by Awulf
Mucks got the right idea here...
If you have the knowledge there are those of us (and I put myself at the front of the line) who would love to hear what the good/experienced pilots here would do in those given situations.
The sincere ones would offer advice and maybe go to the training arena and help you out...
The insincere ones would just call you names and berate you on the BBS.. Slap em down so to speak "Hint"
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Ok Muck, here goes... a bit general for the "step by step" you requested. I love the pony and do have success in it but of course there are others who have their own ways(and probably do!) and will probably claim I suck, or they are better.. blah blah blah. Here's me:
Let's assume both niki pilots are reasonabley experienced.
The nikis are at 10k, you are at 15k and all planes are at cruise speed. A quick check of the skies around you and dar shows you have plenty of time(per your description). Perfect!!
As someone said... you really don't need all that alt.. why?
Well, if you dive too fast, you'll lose some manueverability plus if you go too low after your attack, you may give your niki friends shot opportunites on the way back up.
So, first things first. Get them engaged!! Make a pass or two on them so they don't split, break and run in different directions. 99% of the time if you engage one, the other will stick around to "help".
On the first pass or two you will learn tons. Are they left handed? Right handed? Oddly, most people tend to break the same way almost every time. This will be important to note as you will learn.
OK, during the first couple of passes, you're really just gathering info. Don't dive down too fast, use throttle to keep the pony in her sweet spot. Don't single out a target between the two. Their actions will tell you who you should be aiming for.(look for the gross mistake, recognize those and you're set) As you dive in, these first couple runs, take a shot if they give you one that does not require heavy G's to acquire. Make mental notes of their evasive habits.
Ok let's take a paragraph and talk about the rope. Remember, this is my opinion so others may tell you I'm full of crap. Ok with your 5k alt advantage, you really have way more E than you need. And, if you zoom so far up that the niks feel they have no chance to get to you, they may break and run. The thing here to do is keep the horded E you need, but don't let the niks know you are banking it. Steve, how do I do this? I'm glad you asked! Welcome, my friend, to my world. The answer sounds simple. It is sooooo effective that I use it every day: spiral climb.
Think of the spiral climb as a spring. The more it is compressed, the tighter the coils and less vertical it travels. As the spring is relaxed, the coils aren't so tight but they travel more vertically. If that spring were to be straightened out, imagine how long (energy!) it would be. Whether loose, tight, or in a straight line the spring coils are the same length.
Ok, so as you zoom back up, you do so in a spiral over the niks. Why? A couple of really good reasons. As you spiral as opposed to going straight up, you stay in close enough contact w/ the niks that you will keep them interested AND if they decide to cut and run, you are so close that you can quickly snap over and run them down. Also, a spiral rope really allows you to look around and make sure your enemy doesn't have help coming. As you spiral back up, take a good look around to keep your SA in order. I like to stay so close that my victims are actually trying for a shot. Why? Well, let's say I'm spiralling over your niks at say 800-1200 yards(even less if I am fast). These guys are going to be pulling lead like mad to try for a shot(burning more E than you in the process). As they pull, tighten your spiral enough to keep in front of their gun solution. Now you've got slow victims and you can pick your time to roll over and pop them!
Steve, how do I know when? Good question!!! Here is another part of good roping that takes practice. If you wait until your opponent goes nose down you may give him time(it only takes a second or two) to build enough E to perform an evasive. If your opponent just plain stalls this is not a problem but most pilots will nose down prior to stall. The trick is, to learn to nose down into your opponent at the right moment so that if he goes nose down he gives you a sweet canopy shot, if he rolls over you have a nice fat belly shot, and if he feels he is forced to stay nose up, his nose will drop enough that you can rake his canopy/tail section w/out giving him a gun solution. If you go down too early, no problem. Nose back up(to avoid the HO), and start over, or, what I like to do for a change up: Nose up, let him think you are repeating rope, instead do a sort of high yoyo and drop right back down on his now helpless plane.
Steve, this is all fine but there are two niks!!!
No problem, in fact I use this to my advantage.(explained later) Every once in a while, chances are that one of the niks is going to slip off and try to grab to get over you/coalt. Keep an eye on them and make a pass at the grabber to force him into an E bleeding evasive. I call this corralling. It works, Muck, I love spiralling over 6 or so bad guys, watching for the gross error that signals to me who dies first.
Ok you've made a pass or two and you have noticed that one nik tends to break to the right but his break is a bit lazy and you think if you pull G's, you can snap him. Up in your spiral, go thru the coil until you've got the niks in spots under you where you can make a pass on one without giving a gun solution to the other(another advantage over the straight ropes, which tend to clump enemies right on top of each other). Roll over on your victim.... but cheat a little. You know that he is probably going to go right....cheat some in that direction, not enough to be obvious, just enough that you will not have to pull lead nearly as hard to get your gun solution.
I hope you are starting to get the picture.
Ok here's another and my favorite. Up in your spiral, come down on the same guy twice in a row. If he makes a gross mistake, take the shot. Not to worry if he doesn't. Now, after you've made a couple passes, you go back into your spiral. Line the niks up so that they are close to each other but not exactly in line with you. Dive back down on the same guy you've been running at. Instead of trying for a gun solution on this guy, switch at the last second to the other nik. You'd be amazed at how often this catches them off guard! Imagine how well this works w/ 4 or 5 guys under you.
Ok, this gererally covers how I'd approach these two bandits, does it help?
There are other things involved I didn't discuss for now(some: flaps, rudder to bleed E and snap, how you can stall a pony over on it's back and the nose will fall down perfectly, even at full throttle.. etc etc) but I hope this is close to what you were looking for. A good start at least.
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YEAH YEAH what steve said.. although i am not as patient as he. The spiral climb also makes it harded for them to track you IMO. Well it makes it harder for me to track but I suk...
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Originally posted by muckmaw
You mean open the canopy and flash nudie pics at him?
Fly around in a circle and look like my aileron is broken?
How do you sucker someone?
ROFLMAO...... that was great !!!
Steves tactics here are really good to in explaining the spring/spiral rope .
But i do fight from the rope/ lower alt position alot...(yea i like her on top )...if you learn to trick them, tease them, "show them nudies" alot of them get over confident and will miss judge how much E they have lost, or blow by to fast and try to reverse to quickly . (alot of times you can fool them into thinking your climbing when actually your gaining "E" ) dont fall for the "rope a dope " climbing the rope only works once in a great while , and only when they miss judge how much E you actually have.
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Oh, and Muck, I can send you a film, or even spend some time in Da/Ta with ya if you would like to see how I pull off what I'm talking about. Again, I'm not saying I'm worthy of teaching others, but you asked and I'm willing to show ya what we have discussed.
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If u fly AH as if it were a real plane and a real war- u would have done exactly that: fly away ,get some alt and advantage and engage in the most superior position possible.
There's no wrong in dis-engaging when you're in a bad situation.
I wish all AH players ( wish they were pilots ) would play like in real life , then there would almost be no HO's and a lot more ACM's.
Try flying the plane as if it's the only sortie you have available that day , and try to stay alive !
Doc
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Originally posted by Doctorr
If u fly AH as if it were a real plane and a real war- u would have done exactly that: fly away ,get some alt and advantage and engage in the most superior position possible.
There's no wrong in dis-engaging when you're in a bad situation.
I wish all AH players ( wish they were pilots ) would play like in real life , then there would almost be no HO's and a lot more ACM's.
Try flying the plane as if it's the only sortie you have available that day , and try to stay alive !
Did I actually just read this nonsense?
Here's a hint: For every actual pilot who would "engage in the most superior position possible," there was by definition someone (a real pilot) who was in a disadvantageous situation.
Here's another clue: Many aces, especially Luftwaffe aces, were shot down numerous times. Even Adolf Galland was shot down in a 262 by a P-47. Why wasn't this ace of aces disengaging and grabbing alt to his advantage? How could he have possibly allowed a P-47 to engage and critically damage his jet?
Ponder these things.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Ooh, I loooove the discussion raging.
You know what? I fly the FM-2 often and most definitely don't run away in that one (you can't anyway) and like to knife fight Niki's too. If I had been one on one against that first N1K2 I would have fought him, no doubt, even in a P-51.
However, he started with a slight E-advantage, so I felt I had to run a bit to get separation to be able to build E and safely reverse. But he just wouldn't give up! So I extended and climbed a bit to get the advantage, but as we all know, a N1K2 climbs quite well too, so it took some time. By the time I could SAFELY reverse i got my dear old mum on the phone, was AFK for a while and when I returned I was at 17k with the N1K2 almost 6k behind and below me. Then I saw an attacker on radar and went after him. I really wasn't in the mood to risk a HO-ish type of situation with a N1K2 spraying 20mm's at me.
I DO know some ACM and if you ever fought me, you'd know that I can handle the plane set pretty well throughout (just check the stats and the planes I usually fly, nothing impressive but nothing horrible either). But compared to the die hards who have been playing these kind of sims for 10 years and play a lot more and are obviously more talented than I am I can't begin to measure up.
And yes, this was my idea of fun that day. Furballing is by far and away the most fun for me, but this time I only wanted to fight on my terms and deny the enemy every opportunity to get me. It worked.
The argument that real aces were shot down plenty of times does not seem very valid to me. They were of course, when performing their duty, but I'm pretty sure they never INTENDED to get shot down...
And after all, it's just a game...
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Originally posted by T0J0
The sincere ones would offer advice and maybe go to the training arena and help you out...
The insincere ones would just call you names and berate you on the BBS.. Slap em down so to speak "Hint"
Your absolutly right ... again ... I apologize to Hogenbor !!!
It was more frustration on my part and not insincerity. I spent a fair amout of time the night before his post looking for a fight ... to no avail. If someone thinks that I am a better pilot than they are and they want to go to the DA and work on some things I am more than willing.
Was in the DA last night and fought quite a few rounds with a guy called Cyou ... he was testing a new stick and trying to scrape some "rust" off.
We had a blast fighting head to head and then exchanging disadvantage positions.
Likewise, if some of the better pilots want to take me to the DA and teach me a few things I am up for that too.
oh yeah ... Cyou is a BK ... looks like another furballer will be back in action soon.
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Glad you found some fun in the DA last night, Slap. Couldnt funt anything but vulchers, newbies and buffs..
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Originally posted by Rutilant
Glad you found some fun in the DA last night, Slap. Couldnt funt anything but vulchers, newbies and buffs..
Yeah ... I was at A1 also ... didn't get vulched but shot down a few newbies. Was glad when Cyou asked to fight !!!
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Steve-
You seem to have made the spiral into a science. I swear, reading that post, I thought I was in High school again.
Anyway, it is mucha ppreciated, and another trick I will work on to put in my bag. I've gotten some great tips on Merges in an F6F in another thread.
I managed to put together a 5 kills sortie last night with some of the stuff I learned, and for me, that's a huge accomplishment.
I may take you up on that DA/TA deal. What's your in-game callsign?
Thanks again to all.
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Wtg Muck! A 5 kill sortie in anything is a great run. :)
Look for me in game some time. I have found that just about anyone I go to the DA with has something to teach me, so I'll go any time.
My in-game callsign is: Steve
Good hunting!
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Muck...is...being...assimilat ed..
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"....If u fly AH as if it were a real plane and a real war- u would have done exactly that: fly away ,get some alt and advantage and engage in the most superior position possible. ...."..
Yeah, they never attacked in WWII unless they had the advantage. Sheesh. Ever hear of this minor skirmish called the Battle of Britain?
Thank god the real life guys didn't fly like we do here in AH. We would have lost.
yowser
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Hogenbor,
i am not shure. But maybe we met us from time to time in MA.
Could it be possible that you are the dot at same alt who turns and run away soon enough so that its not possible to have at least a look on your icon?
Pehaps you did not learn the knife-fight style of dogfighting, but your sortie was successful in keeping with the spirit of Aces High.
hmmm....
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Hogenbor, it's your nickel -- fight on your own terms and have fun. It's just a game. Always something new to learn and enjoy.
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Ecke, we most certainly met 'cause you managed to shoot me down on several occasions. So at least I don't always run
I don't fight at a disadvantage, that would be pointless. Only thing I'll prove if I might win is that the other guy is an ever more pathetic pilot than I am. Only exception is when I'm flying with my squad.
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Hogenbor,
i just checked your stats. Maybe your not that runner i talked about.
But why not trying out new tactics instead of runnig for safety?
If the niki has a bit advantage why not dragging him down carefully. You are in the faster plane and it should be possible to keep him behind you at least 2-2.5 k.
If he follows you in to your gentle dive, it dont last long and his advantage is gone. His state of e will be equaled to yours. And then its your turn because your in the faster plane.
You could try to fight him in the vertical. You could try to bore him to death with BnZ.
AH isnt RL and you can try out things in different ways. Even if you fail, your experience increases. And soon you will know what is possible or not.
But if you decide running for a whole P51 fueltank, its a waste of time and fun and experience.
Ecke
Edit: And sorry for my blind imputation.
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Originally posted by Ecke-109-
Hogenbor,
But why not trying out new tactics instead of runnig for safety?
If the niki has a bit advantage why not dragging him down carefully. You are in the faster plane and it should be possible to keep him behind you at least 2-2.5 k.
If he follows you in to your gentle dive, it dont last long and his advantage is gone. His state of e will be equaled to yours. And then its your turn because your in the faster plane.
You could try to fight him in the vertical. You could try to bore him to death with BnZ.
AH isnt RL and you can try out things in different ways. Even if you fail, your experience increases. And soon you will know what is possible or not.
But if you decide running for a whole P51 fueltank, its a waste of time and fun and experience.
Ecke
Edit: And sorry for my blind imputation.
Ecke,
It maybe was not clear but that's exactly what I did. I nullified his slight E advantage and kept him at 2.5k... but I wanted some room to play with so I chose to climb while KEEPING him at 2.5k. I fought N1K2's many times in P-51's and it is possible to win with speed, I know. However, this one was so tenacious I had the distinct impression that he would give me a face full of 20mm if I would reverse too close to him, and as you know, lots of N1K2 pilots do exactly this. I just didn't want to risk being sprayed to death when going vertical.
Maybe I was a bit too cautious that day, but diving headlong for any enemy has lost its attraction long ago. It's true that wasting 100% of fuel for two kills is excessive, but I was up there with hardly anybody in sight. And I really wanted to win. And I did, that's what counted for me that flight. Too many times I went for instant gratification which I sometimes managed, bot mostly it was near instant death. I won some, I losed some but bit by bit I win more than I lose... and not only with the overcautious approach. But the game and air combat in general has an immense depth, akin to chess or playing guitar I believe. You can start out as a newbie and have fun, and still learning things and having fun 20 years later. Still so much to learn but as you might guess I'm far beyond the basics now.
That having said, can you explain how to get a hit ratio as awfully good as yours in a G-10??? That 30mm only works for me when I race in and they keep straight and level because they never saw me...
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Thats why i love the 30mm. It needs only one hit to bring the enemy down. Yepp, its not easy.And no thing for sprayers. A stream of pee has better balistics than this cannon.
When doing deflection shots, i "calculate" the degrees which i probably need and then , i double the calculated result (in the vertical and horizontal)
That brings my bullets very often in to the target.
I also hit without seeing them. When i turn with an enemy and he starts i.e. from my very low 3 or 9 to cross my path, the last 1 or 1.5 seconds he is covered by my cockpit. For learning when to pull the trigger, a little bug is helpfull. you can see the hit sprites (if you hit) through the fuselage of your plane.
After having luck and beeing sucessfull a few times you will hopefully get a feeling when its the right moment to shoot.
I dont have to tell you that its nothing for sprayers. (60 rounds).
In general, only very short bursts. 3-4 bullets maximum per burst.
Ecke
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The way i see it slap is right to be disheartened by constant runing tactics but also the pilot who is running may well be doing the right thing if he isnt particularly good at furballing.
Slap what id say is i'd agree totally with you if the p51 pilot was a real expert flyer who 'decided' to run even though he is capable of turning and fighting. I completely understand why you got peeved by it. I often have faced the all to familiar 'chase for hours with no result' crap.It does indeed ruin the fun a bit.
ECKe is right for suggesting a move to trick the NIK and engage earlier but i really feel you guys should remember you have mostly been playing longer than the rest of us. Even though ive flown just AH for 3 years there are many who have had four or five years more on top of this time. If a guy arrives in AH and is tentative and is learning when to engage and when not to I cant see the justification in saying they should attempt ACM's that they are barely able to conceive, let alone perform.
Its just the way things are, and i for one think hogen flew ok in this fight. If i was the nik pilot in this I wouldnt have chased the p5 for that length of time.Id have turned my tail to him in the hope this tempts him to reverse for an attack. This would have meant a fight ensued earlier. I actually think the NIK pilots are more to blame for a dull fight than the p51.
They dived out in an equal e engagement tried to HO rather than use a decent attack, chased for ages with the slim hope the p51 would be stupid enough to turn and put himself at a disadvantage.
This, if anything was the cause of the stretched out and less thrilling fight. Im just glad hogen shot them down :D
good ol hogen served em up on a platter and they got annoyed at their own failure not his flying :)
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Well, thank you Hazed!
I've been flying for a year and not that much per month, I'd say an hour per day on average (and that's a good month)
Still, I've been avidly playing AI flightsims since Chuck Yeagers Air Combat. This game is so good that a friend of mine goes to enormous lengths to make it run every time he gets a new computer. It looks awfully basic by now but I felt a fighter pilot for the first time flying that. And it fits on one floppy! But I digress.
I am able to conceive ACM Hazed but I've still got much to learn. A newbie is dead if I meet him one on one and I should be ashamed if this wasn't so after a year. I can do it all in here. But will I ever be able to play in the same league as the big boys? Time will tell but it doesn't seem likely.
But hey, it's a game! Have fun and try to shoot me down!
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Hog-
It's tough when you have to balance real life with hobbies. I've been playing flight sims all the way back to a Sublogic's Flight Simulator for the Commodore 64, and I;ve flown AH for better than 2 years.
The problem I have is similar to yours. I can only get in about 30 hours a month on average. Add in the fact that I like to do almost every aspet of the game, and I only log about 10-15 hours a month in fighters. Now compare this with guys who do 300 hours a month in a fighter, and one would understand how it's nearly impossible to compete on that level. But if your having fun, which I am, that's all that really matters.
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as per the greatest ace of all time "Eric Hartmann" the pilot that turn fights soon dies!
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"it's not whether you win or lose, it's how you play the *game*."
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Originally posted by Shane
"it's not whether you win or lose, it's how you play the *game*." [/QUOTE
joke of the day coming from your mouth.
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You didn't fight them on your "own terms" ... you just picked them off when they were engaged with something else or RTBing. -Slapshot
Typical, coming from a Spitfire-monkey.
A kill is a kill is a kill is a victory. Even USN tactical manuals discuss fuel starvation and running out of gas in a fight as a loss. Same with not paying attention when egressing. Shoot someone down RTB'ing is just one method for victory and playing to a particular strength. Don't dimish the guy's victory. He fought a different fight than your TurnfireV, but he still won.
So many critics.
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Originally posted by SunKing
Originally posted by Shane
"it's not whether you win or lose, it's how you play the *game*." [/QUOTE
joke of the day coming from your mouth. [/B]
i take it you still suck?
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Originally posted by Shane
i take it you still suck?
I see Baby Hueys still measuring his manhood in a sim.
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Hogen! WTG Dude!!! You had fun shooting down those 2 N1K2s, right? Then you got what you are paying for. Direct and simple. If someone disagrees with the way you fought the fight, so what. It is not their signature on the credit card.
In my book you did great! Super job! Keep it up and shoot a few more down!!
:)
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Originally posted by Swager
Hogen! WTG Dude!!! You had fun shooting down those 2 N1K2s, right? Then you got what you are paying for. Direct and simple. If someone disagrees with the way you fought the fight, so what. It is not their signature on the credit card.
In my book you did great! Super job! Keep it up and shoot a few more down!!
:)
isnt swager great! :)
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Originally posted by SlapShot
Your obviously scared to death of the N1K and probably will never learn how to beat it with your current strategy.
You didn't fight them on your "own terms" ... you just picked them off when they were engaged with something else or RTBing.
You drained the tanks on a P51 and all you had to show for it was two kills which really didn't involve any fighting ... what did you learn ACM-wise on that sortie ? ... nothing .
edit : uncalled for line ... sorry
WTG Hogan....any dead nikki is a good nikki...and no UFO dweeb should whine about anything.
Slapshot...above comment really doesnt make much sense...there is no ACM that will kill a Nikki in a pony....so we'll rename you slapsnot for a day:)
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Originally posted by Steve
"Now, for everyone's benefit, what would you do, step by step, to win the engagement? Remember, your in a Pony, let's say 1/2 tank, 5K alt advantage over 2 Nikis. No bases or CVs nearby. "
I'm salivating, just reading this. Cmon Slap... tell him.
5K alt advantage, no enemy, no enemy base, no enemy cv in site.
Oh my, excuse me while I go get a towel, I'm drooling on my keyboard.
Grab another 5k of alt...?:)
couldnt resist
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Grab another 5k of alt...?
How does that make any sense at all?
Resist what? what are you talking about?
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From the way Slapshot is engaging in the post, you'd think he was one of the Nikis that got shot down.
:D
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I actually had a similiar experience last night...ran into a Nikki at about 15k or so...I was maybe 12k in an la-5. Realistically we were probably pretty close to co-e...he took a nose down shot on "merge" and gave me the high ground. It realistically took a good 5 minutes for me to set up a shot...I was fighting vertically from the over and he was climbing back up into me from the under. I kept "tightening up" as I got a better feel for his total E and preferences. I dont think we were ever more than 2.5 apart and were within 1200 (vertically seperated) at least half the time. I took 1 shot (14 20mm) and sawed his tail off....bout 30 sec later comes the whine "I finally bored him to death"(sads). Personally I think nikki is a total dweeb ride with a porked FM (still)...and yes I do fly it once in awhile:).
I'm curious what anyone in a nikki or zeke or spitV or other such ride really expects from someone flying an E fighter. Especially the nikki since its E model is so far off. What really amazed me is the inability to distinquish between E fighting & B&Z...although both are legit tactics.
Personally I hope they rework the FM on the nikki for AHII...otherwise ditch it and make the dweebs fly a real plane.
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Nice job, Humble. Those nikis are really badarse when flown by a good pilot. That Taki guy is really darned good in them... imo.
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Taki is a true ballbuster...
I've never seen someone manage E better. Since he's in a nikki I'm always unsure if he's that good or the nikki is that badly modeled e retention wise. He has that mid zoom drop the nose thingy down pat. Then screams right up thru the middle of the spiral and sprays you at 650-800 as you flatten it out...amazingly by the time I can get flipped over and rudder in on him he's already recovered and back in a climbing 270...if you pull into him and miss he'll flip over on ya so I usually roll 90 away zoom and we repeat the whole damm thing:rolleyes:
Since he's a terror in a spitty as well I give him credit for skill but I still think nikki is a bit uber. I'd guess the pony probably has a bit of an edge tactics wise vs the la-5 (against nikki) I normally drive but realistically its the same fight.
Glad to know I'm not the only goes away mumbling every time I run into Taki...even on those rare occasions I tag him.
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Originally posted by humble
there is no ACM that will kill a Nikki in a pony....
With people believing that load of crap, no wonder why there's a horde of timid, limp wristed players in AH with absolutely no understanding or even knowledge of what ACM is and how to use it.
Ack-Ack
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Ack-Ack's signature:
"Some pilots are good, some pilots are great but the best of all flew the P-38!"
Who is this guy Col. Al Griebling? I'm just curious as to who he is as I've never heard of him.
:confused:
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Originally posted by Steve
"Now, for everyone's benefit, what would you do, step by step, to win the engagement? Remember, your in a Pony, let's say 1/2 tank, 5K alt advantage over 2 Nikis. No bases or CVs nearby. "
I'm salivating, just reading this. Cmon Slap... tell him.
5K alt advantage, no enemy, no enemy base, no enemy cv in site.
Not that I'm a P-51 driver (probably have less than 5 minutes stick time in it) but that's a rather easy setup.
Since it's not smart to turn fight a N1K2 in a P-51D, let alone two of them, I'd rely on using E fighting tactics such BnZ to tap dance on their heads. This would be to try to split them up, so when I make my passes, I only have to worry about 1 of them at a time and also tap dancing on their heads forces them to evade my passes, burning valuable energy in the process. Keep hammering them with the BnZ high speed passes until either one of both of them are dead or to the point that their E state has been dwindled enough that I can get inside their breaking turn for the deflection shot and kill. Or I can use the BnZ passes to setup the Rope-A-Dweeb and rope them with a spiral climb.
Ack-Ack
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AKAK, that's basically what I said.. except splitting them up. I prefer to keep them together, so they both have to evade and, if either makes a mistake, you will have a shot opportunity.
Plus if they split up, you will have a harder time keeping one or the other from grabbing.
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In the P-38 I'd keep them together for those reasons but I thought with a P-51D, you could always extend into a shallow climb and regain your altitude if the 2nd one decided to climb instead of going to the assist of his buddy. This isn't the case with the P-51D?
ack-ack
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AKAK,
Take a P-51 and go try it. Film is worth much more than words. However, you are absolutely by no means representative of the average to below average player in here.
Anyway, the George will just point his nose straight up and head-on you when you try and dive on him. That's just their breed.
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AKAK, you definitely could do that. IMHO, this tends to end up in a more lengthy fight though unless you are dealing w/ 2 rookies.
In a 51 at least, I've found that corralling them leads to ending the fight quicker.
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
With people believing that load of crap, no wonder why there's a horde of timid, limp wristed players in AH with absolutely no understanding or even knowledge of what ACM is and how to use it.
Ack-Ack
Probably not the best wording...but I'll stand by the comment. Give me a single ACM that will defeat a nikki in a pony. Now a pony should never lose to a co-e Nikki (in theory) and can use correct tactics to continually attack the nikki (E or B&Z). The pony needs to accuire a positive E position and exploit it...I dont consider that ACM...maybe I'm wrong.
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Originally posted by humble
Probably not the best wording...but I'll stand by the comment. Give me a single ACM that will defeat a nikki in a pony. Now a pony should never lose to a co-e Nikki (in theory) and can use correct tactics to continually attack the nikki (E or B&Z). The pony needs to accuire a positive E position and exploit it...I dont consider that ACM...maybe I'm wrong.
So if you are in the less manueverable but faster aircraft, flying it to your advantage is not ACM? What are you supposed to do .. break hard and then once he's on your 6 pray to god he doesn't know how to scissor? What rubbish.
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again wording isnt right somehow...but point was pretty simple...good tactics isn't really ACM. The pony can & should simply use alt & E to pick away at the nikki. Obviously the better choice is to use the vertical but maintain "contact" in an E fight. If you look up toward top of this page I posted a similiar type of fight. Was smart flying...obviously frustrating for the nikki...he never got shot and I got him on 1 shot after 5 min or so of flying....guess you could call it ACM...I'd label it as tactics...I used bunch of different ACM to maintain angles/E/vertical seperation and tease him into a shot solution. Only real ACM was the merge...I gave him a bad nose down shot and he bit...followed by a zoom to spiral climb where he topped out at about 800 below me....15 sec of "ACM" followed by 4 1/2 min of reeling him in.
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Although simplistic in it's design, couldn't a spiral climb be considered ACM? I said simplistic in design, exectution is another matter.
Sure anyone can spiral, but knowing your opponent's E-state(and yours) and his plane's capabilities, then translating that into how tightly or loosely you spiral, and when to drop on your opponent are very different things. Also, Puke mentioned that a niki will nose up and HO you while you dive on him. If you spiral, and correctly judge when he can no longer lift his nose up/around, you can drop down on his canopy/tail instead of getting a face full of Jap rounds. No offense but, anyone spiraling that gets Ho'd either doesn't fully understand how to execute a spiral rope or has misjudged his opponent's E state. I myself still occasionally underestimate a pilot's ability to hang on his nose and either get a facial or have to evade. AKAK himself caught me at this once. Live(or die in this case) and learn. A little adjustment in my approach angle off the spiral and I was fine from then on. :)
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Originally posted by Puke
AKAK,
Take a P-51 and go try it. Film is worth much more than words. However, you are absolutely by no means representative of the average to below average player in here.
Anyway, the George will just point his nose straight up and head-on you when you try and dive on him. That's just their breed.
That was the whole point in the first place
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Steve,
I agree with you completely...execution not the tactic or ACM is usually the point that seperates the victor from the fluttering wreckage. In a knife fight ACM combinations often dicate the outcome vs pure ability to "fly the edge". In an E fight Drex's "3 dimensional geometry" combined with ACM go a long way to determining the outcome. I think that some match ups simply come down to experience and patience more than anything else. I view the nikki vs pony fight as one of these.
My intent in the original comment was to imply what you stated much more clearly...it's the execution and timing of a BFM not the use of a more complex ACM thats key here. Your managing the fight not outflying the bogie to win.
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Originally posted by humble
My intent in the original comment was to imply what you stated much more clearly...it's the execution and timing of a BFM not the use of a more complex ACM thats key here. Your managing the fight not outflying the bogie to win.
When you're managing the fight, you're basically out flying the other guy.
Basic flight maneuvers will never win you any fights. No matter the style of fighting or the dogfighting tactics employed, there is always an ACM element to them. Dogfighting with only BFM would be just flying around and enjoying the sights.
ack-ack
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ack-ack....
Obviously we're approaching the same place from different directions. Your definitions of ACM are probably more accurate than mine. However, back when I was a trainer one of the things I noticed most was that even the more "advanced" beginners or intermediate sticks didnt understand alot of the "fundementals".
I'll give you three quick examples:
1) The value and role of a lead turn in a merge....to me thats a BFM...the tactics that lead to vertical and lateral seperation and a corresponding gain in angles is really what you teach.
2) Using yoyo's on the deck in an end game stall fight...to me thats true ACM at it's best
3) Neg E/alt merges that induce a low % "nose down" shot by con and either set up a nice shot on overshhot (requires ACM) or allow for an extension and decrease in cons advantage on remerge (BFM).
My whole original reply wassimply trying to clarify that a pony driver is going to need to out think...not "outfly" the nikki driver. I think since your a 38 driver thats second nature...nobody does well in a 38 just yanking on the stick:)
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I finally made the 'pissed somebody off for shooting them down' club a few nights ago. :D I was in a formation of Lancasters and saw an enemy fighter (Niki I think) coming towards my low 12. I jumped in the nose gun and got some hits on it, then jumped to the tail. By now he was on my high 6 and turned to drop down to my low 6, and I followed him down, blasting away - and killed him. :) Next thing I know, I am being accused of cheating (well, granted, not in so many words) but he commented on the fact my guns were (or appeared to be to him) shooting straight down! :rolleyes: :p Hehe, it was fun. ;)
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Hhhehehe. Those Lancs do seem to have a pretty good degree of down angle they can reach.. wtg Flossy.
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I too have noticed the extreme downward angle the tail guns seem able to achieve in the Lancaster. Almost makes up for the lack of a ball turret.
WTG Flossy, nice kill.
ack-ack
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Three amusing situations recently happened to me.
#1. Since I'm not very good at AH I tend to fly planes that are fast and BnZ an awful lot. My SA just sucks, so turn fighting gets me dead real quick. Anyway, up in a Runstang with only 25% (field fuel porked as usual) and head off for what appears to be a good fight over an enemy (Bish or Rook, can't remember) field about 1.5 sectors away. Climb out to 10K plus.
Arriving over the field there is a good Knight vs. Bish/Rook fight going on at about 5K, with fairly even numbers. Most of the fight is concentrated over or around the field, but a Knight Spit and an enemy LA7 are off to the side a bit going around and around in circles. LA7 is gaining the advantage, and finally latches on to the Spits tail at maybe 1.2 out. Spit and LA7 are coming towards me, my 10 o'clock or so.
Always being the one to help out a friend, I dive in on their 1v1 fight with the original idea of just forcing the LA7 to break off the Spit (i.e., fire a couple of tracers his way). Turns out that after my dive I end up on his 9:30 or so, 350 out, so I let him have it. Stitched the plane from cowl to tail as he goes by, and get a quick kill. Zooming back up I get a message on channel 1 to the effect of:
1. I HO'd him and that wasn't "fair" - Sorry, thought HO was at 12:00, but anyway.
2. I "ruined" his fight with the Spit.
#2. Fuel was low, and make awful gunnery soon depleted by ammo load within a couple of minutes following #1 above. So I gain some alt. and start heading back at maybe 10K, with one "tick" on the fuel tank and maybe 100-175 rounds of .50 cal. Along comes an LA7 at my 12:00 o'clock, at 15K or so, heading right at me. I keep on eye on him, but I don't have the fuel or ammo to fight so I immediately decide that I will run if he engages, knowing that a good pilot will be good in the merge, and I'm probably dead anyway.
LA7 dives in, tries an HO (started firing at 1.0!!!!). I roll to evade and dive for the deck. He must have burned a lot of E in his reversal because he isn't gaining on me. I keep checking my 6 to see how far out he is, and it slowly, very slowly starts counting down from 1.6. It gets to 1.3 and then starts opening up again. At 2.2, a message comes over channel 1:
1. I wasted his time/fuel/whatever because I wouldn't engage. True enough, but not sure why he kept chasing me for 5 minutes. The only option I may have had to "engage" would have been an HO/ram, at which point I'm sure I would have heard another comment.
#3. Start a co-alt fight with a F4U in my Runstang. We go on and about for maybe a minute or so in what was actually a pretty good 1v1 fight. I resist the temptation to HO him, and he does the same, so I figure we have a gentlemen's agreement for this fight and that we are going to play "fair". Neither of us really gets any good shots throughout, but on one merge he comes right at me and starts spraying from 800 or so. And misses. Next merge same thing. And misses. Again. And misses. During all of this I continue to abide by what I thought was our gentlemen's agreement, and I don't return fire head on. On the next merge I see 2 of his buddies show up, 4.5 out and closing. He comes at me again head on and fires. This time I fire back, gets some hits, check my six, and see a chute. Channel 1 reveals:
1. Something to the effect of "Nice HO 51...try some ACM next time."
Huh?
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^ sounds like MA in Aces High all right :)
Squelch channel one or run gamma for channel one all the way dim (you can still see messages if you really really need to - easy to ignore at same time.)
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Originally posted by Zanth
^ sounds like MA in Aces High all right :)
Squelch channel one or run gamma for channel one all the way dim (you can still see messages if you really really need to - easy to ignore if you want to at same time.)
But if I squelch it I will miss all the entertaining banter as I float down in my chute (again!) :D