Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: beet1e on August 09, 2003, 09:06:27 AM
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I was all over the place when I started with the G10, and was quick to lament its weaknesses. I’ve had a great deal of help from guys like Grünherz, Urchin and Ecke-109, and now I’m really enjoying this plane. Instead of focussing on its weaknesses (poor roll rate, sluggish elevator) I now try to capitalise on its strengths – speed, e-retention, acceleration, scissoring...
The last three kills I got were all P51s. The first two were rank dweebs who dived into the fray, twisting and turning and firing at anything that moved, until their E was blown, at which point they tried to run away. But the G10 can chase them down, and as they wriggle and turn, the G10 simply uses that moment to get ever closer. I used Grünherz’s “tap-tap” method to nail each of these guys at 300-400 yards. Only thing is, I tap-tapped my way through about 33 spuds before getting the kill – LOL.
The last one was the best. I ran into Artlaw, and he put up what I considered to be a good fight. He did a good barrel roll, and if I hadn’t realised what he was trying, I might have ended up in his 12. Fortunately for me, I reversed the roll from right to left. As Artlaw levelled came horizontal, I wasn’t there – I was in his 8. I couldn’t get a guns solution in the pull-up, so over we went again, the G10 happy to loop, but the P51 gasping for E. And there he was, in my 12. I was sorry it was over.
Artlaw :) I am left wondering at what point you ran out of gas. :D:D ;)
Never mind. And don’t feel bad. It’s the plane that counts, not the pilot.
Film of 109 v P51 (http://www.alanadsl.legend.yorks.com/109g10vp51.zip)
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were you carrying gondolas?
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Wheee :)
I remember a 109G10 fight vs Artlaw's P51 :)
I can't remember all of it, but i believe it started at around 7k.. i had dove on him and eveneed out at around D800, so he was trying to gain separation.. every time he leveled out i did a low yoyo and gained on him, forcing him to wriggle and dive a bit for some speed.. slowly, over the length of a sector, this went on till we got o around 2k (this was pizza) and he sees a CV and dives too it.. it isnt his! it starts firing at him so he dives the other way and i dive along with him and we end up on the deck. I had been firing the BBs at him and getting minor pings the whole way, but no damage.. i had 16 taters and no MGs left, so i had to make em count.. On the deck my 109G10 could keep up with hima nd i was almost outta WEP.. he knows this and i get to around D450 and he barrel rolls to make me overshoot and i fired all my spuds at him in a last ditch attempt.. I missed and went on past, clenching my teeth adn aiting for the 6 .50s to rip me to shreds.. it doesnt happen and i look back just in time to see him snaproll and auger.
WHEW! I had 2 scalps, that being the third and hadd no ammo, very little fuel so i go to land on the CV.. flaps out, almost there.. almost.. smack right into the back of the CV. Have a good laugh with artlaw on channel 1 about it and exchange our 's..
That was fun :D Artlaw taught me the 109G10 too, so i guess it came back to bite him :)
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MONGO LIKE G 10 But if you use the gondolas on that thing its conna cost ya.
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Ike - no gondolas. Just the optional spud cannon.
At first, I thought I'd missed and that the P51 had simply augered. But just before splashdown, you can clearly see the red tail, separated from the rest of the plane.
That was fun Artlaw taught me the 109G10 too, so i guess it came back to bite him
LOL!
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WTG!!! You have seen the light (darkness?) of the G10... :)
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It would have much more interesting if you would have been in the 51, reversed and killed the G10.
As it was, you have the horsepower, he bled on the reversal.
If you ever have a film where you DON'T have the advantage and are victorious post THAT film.
They're much more informative.
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About a year ago I had an epic brawl with Shane (we've had several of those, always fun). I was up in a heavy P-51D, Shane had a 109G-10 (this was in the CT). I had loaded two 1k bombs and six rockets, plus a full bag of fuel for a three sector transit (was gonna defuel a base that was spawning Ju 88s by the dozen).
Anyway, I had switched thru my tanks and mistakenly left it on the aux tank in manual mode. That would haunt me later. I had passed about 8k when I spot a dot in the distance. I elected to pickle the rockets and hang on to the bombs for the time being.
When the dot became an icon (remember, icon range in the CT is just 3k), I dumped the bombs and maneuvered to gain position on the lower 109. We merged with me going down, and Shane zooming up. The fight lasted for several minutes with neither pilot gaining any significant edge on the other, aside from the briefest snap shot here and there. We were in a climbing lufberry when that aux tank ran dry. I had to fumble around to select another tank, and that gave Shane his opening. Still, I was able to hold him at bay until WEP ran out (which I was using sparingly). Then it got dicey fast. He finally scored a hit and I went down.
There are two things that conspire to hurt the performance of the P-51D. The first is carrying too much fuel. Because it can carry so much, full tanks take a sizable amount of performance away. Second, it has only 5 minutes of WEP, whereas the 109G-10 has at least twice that duration.
Finally, a dogfight involving someone with Shane's skills requires that you not make any dumb mistakes. Running out of gas was a dumb mistake and Shane will make you pay for it.
In a one on one Between a P-51D and 109G-10, the match-up is close enough to go either way. Climb and acceleration go to the 109, with handling, both fast and slow going to the Mustang. Shane was determined to keep the fight in the vertical and I was trying to force him to turn more.
This type of fight is what keeps guys coming back for more every day.
My regards,
Widewing
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Hehe! I always get shot down by the same guys on the BBS, when I post a film - LOL - Lazs and akak will be along in a minute. :D
Nopoop! If you ever have a film where you DON'T have the advantage and are victorious post THAT film.
Certainly. I had clipped the front off that one, so now I include the full thing just for you - only about 4 mins.
At time 0:09, you will see that I am at 3.8K and 235mph, whereas the P51 is at 4.9K and 240mph. Seems like he has the advantage. (?) At time 0:21, he is at 6.9K and 132mph, and I am at 3.7K and 283mph. The whole point of this post is not me, not the P51, but the 109G10. It is able to accelerate and zoom up, and make light of the P51's perceived 3.3K alt advantage. I'm just trying to show what the G10 can do. I keep telling you! - it's the plane that counts, not the pilot. Granted, I have a long way to go as a 109G10 pilot, but I'm working on it.
Full version for Nopoop (http://www.alanadsl.legend.yorks.com/109vp51full.zip)
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Every tour my most kills are stangs with mostly a high k/d on them.
Still a good pilot can do make the stang do suprising things high speed diving scissors mostly give em a chance to snapshot me.
But a failure of 2 -3 time makes my P38 always get me on their 6.
Same counts for g10 easy to shake of and the p38 can get it in the vertical.
A good G10 pilot keeps alot off speed and better try not all those fancy turns. And stay above all things.
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Beet most know what the G10 can do.
What someone can do with it is what's interesting and informative.
What mathman, Hooley or Drex can do with a squeak kitty is facinating. They fight with it.
What hblair can do with a 109 is facinating. He fights with it.
What Rude does with a pony is facinating. He fights with it
What Leviathn does with a Spit V is facinating. He fights with it.
What you do with a G10 is..well.. it stayed on my hard drive just long enough to watch it...
When I want to watch mediority I watch my own films..
Lotsa stuff goin on in mine tho..
No chance of nodding off..
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"Every tour my most kills are stangs with mostly a high k/d on them"
Really? Who?
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Originally posted by nopoop
Beet most know what the G10 can do.
What someone can do with it is what's interesting and informative.
What mathman, Hooley or Drex can do with a squeak kitty is facinating. They fight with it.
What hblair can do with a 109 is facinating. He fights with it.
What Rude does with a pony is facinating. He fights with it
What Leviathn does with a Spit V is facinating. He fights with it.
What you do with a G10 is..well.. it stayed on my hard drive just long enough to watch it...
When I want to watch mediority I watch my own films..
Lotsa stuff goin on in mine tho..
No chance of nodding off..
When I read a post whose content doesn't interest me, I simply move to the next post. Some I don't even read at all if the title looks dumb, or if I already know that the author is dumb.
So why don't you do the same? I know your opinion of me is unflattering, so why waste your time here? Simply move to the next post.
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Looked good to me...can't really fight a guy when all he does is run away.
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Originally posted by Steve
"Every tour my most kills are stangs with mostly a high k/d on them"
Really? Who?
Steve - look at any reasonable player's stats sorted by number of kills by type for tours gone by. Ignore anything that's not a fighter aircraft. In most cases, you will find that the P51, LA7 and Spit ix are in the top five of the list. That's because more people choose to fly those. Not that they are crap planes.
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Id have to disagree with you that they were good barrel roll(s), it was more of one barrel roll.
Any movie IMO is a good movie, sadly i cant say i have any where i end up living, but i do what i do cause i enjoy it ;)
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Beet1e, am I misreading this?
What I got out of it was: I kill a lot of p51 pilots who have High K/D's.
I'm wondering who these p51 pilots are.
Did I misread the post?
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Steve. I'm not sure either, now that I reread Bug's post. Bug is Dutch, and while the Dutch nearly all speak excellent English, sometimes a misplaced word can change an entire sentence.
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My apologies Beet1e.
I'm glad your having a good time in the G10.
Havin a good time is what it's all about.
You were sharing, and that's a good thing also.
Arguing with you is a reflex reaction that didn't have a place in this post.
Cya's up.
( if you get up in the middle of the night )
(balloon winky)
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Originally posted by nopoop
My apologies Beet1e.
I'm glad your having a good time in the G10.
Havin a good time is what it's all about.
You were sharing, and that's a good thing also.
Arguing with you is a reflex reaction that didn't have a place in this post.
Cya's up.
( if you get up in the middle of the night )
(balloon winky)
Hehe, no problem. Yes, sharing, because then the other guys can help me out.
Oddly enough, I did see you just before logging off. Then I realised how late it was. But it's too hot to sleep. We've had about 10-12 days of temps around 35° (95 to you). I blame Revvin's new CPU. ;)
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109s are great, but G10s are LA7s for Luftweenies.
Grab a G6. With gondola cannon fitted.
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try 109F-4. it has the speed and climb of the 109G-2 and it feels like spit14 when you turn fight with it. when you see 109F-4 I hope some of you wont confuse the 109F-4 to 109G-10.
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I didn't bother reading your latest novel, beetle, as I'm sure it's quite similar to your previous pats on your own back. The G10 is better than the P51 1v1 anyway, if you ask me.
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Originally posted by wetrat
I didn't bother reading your latest novel, beetle, as I'm sure it's quite similar to your previous pats on your own back. The G10 is better than the P51 1v1 anyway, if you ask me.
ROFL! It's a pat on the back for the G10. I have no skill, and it's the plane that counts.
Bluedog - as soon as you likened the G10 to an LA7, I found I could no longer fly it! Switched to the G6 today. You know the most frustrating thing about AH is being in a 1-v-many fight and watching the many dweebs make basic errors in their P51s (flat turns after merge) and not being able to engage because if you do, his buddy will do his job for him. Numbers, numbers, numbers...
In a 1-v-many, I don't think there's any shame in using alt. So here's another film (http://www.alanadsl.legend.yorks.com/109g6v190.zip) of me against two LA7, two 190, a N1K, a MOSS... hehe, no-one can call me timid! Both the 190s got suckered into ropes. The film starts just at the horizontal merge with the first 190 - did he try for the HO? He stalled, moments before his death. The second one tried to follow my zoom - lol - see for yourself. And then I left the film running so you could see the LA7 chasing me. 2K below me and spraying from 2100 yards - LOL! See Zanth's quote in my sig.
They had a goon on the ground waiting for the last building to be taken out. Instinct made me want to save the field, but of course my alt was gone. Tried to engage a low TYPH, but that used a lot of E. Could have succeeded 1-v-1, but the LA7s were still around. Oh well...
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Originally posted by BUG_EAF322
Every tour my most kills are stangs with mostly a high k/d on them.
I took it to mean that every tour not only does he kill more stangs than any other plane, but his k/d against them is usually high as well.
Nopoop - was glad to see you apologize.
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Originally posted by Nash
I took it to mean that every tour not only does he kill more stangs than any other plane, but his k/d against them is usually high as well.
Nopoop - was glad to see you apologize.
Going back through tour 38, Beet1e's record against the P-51D stands at 119/34. That's a very respectable 3.5/1 K/D.
Let's put that in perspective.
For the current tour against the P-51D,
Bishops: 4377/5686 0.77/1 K/D
Knights: 3478/2686 1.29/1 K/D
Rooks: 3429/2257 1.52/1 K/D
Overall 1.19/1 K/D vs the P-51D
So, Beet1e's K/D vs the P-51D is far above the average.
My regards,
Widewing
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The P51 will win vs a G10 on deck fites if the p51 dude knows how to use flaps and do roll reversals...
The G10 dude will win if he is slow enough to get 1 notch flap out on flat turns and to avoid scissors.
It's a close matchup any way you look at it.
:D
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Hiya Widewing... we were talking about Bug's success against P51's. :)
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Thanks, Nash. This is actually pretty interesting.... how people can interpret the exact same sentence so very differently.
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Wetrat likes the G10 over the 51. Others here do as well. Another interesting idea, and one that would probably make for great debate fodder.
I, personally like the 51's chances on the deck against a G10.
At very fast speeds, the pony handles much better than the G10.
In the intermediate speed range they seem to handle about the same.(G10 climb and accell advantage noted) Slow things down and I again give the edge to the pony. On the deck, slow and close, I'd much rather be in the pony.
I was surprised to see sirloin mention that a g10 can out-turn a pony when speeds get low. Heck, when I'm fighting a g10 in my pony, the slower the better. Never had one come close to out-turning me.
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Indeed... though it is worded pretty ambiguously. I guess BUG is gonna haveta tell us what he really meant. :)
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It was a good kill, Beetle. Nothing wrong with the way you flew there.
As far as the P-51D vs the 109G-10 it is as even a fight as you can have in dissimilar planes.
The P-51 has an edge in low speed handling, and turning at all speeds, and the turning advantage becomes quite dramatic at lower speeds where the P-51s flaps can come out.
The 109 has an edge in acceleration and climb rate, and it can also climb at a much steeper angle than the P-51 can. That said, none of it matters unless the 109 can get the P-51 to bleed off its speed without getting into a position where the P-51 can shoot him. Once both planes are going slow, the 109 can start to build an energy advantage by climbing (usually a spiral is the safest way)- but if the 109 misjudges the P-51's speed then he will die, since the P-51 is quite stable at low speeds, and has a very lethal gun package.
Basically whoever knows how to get the most out of their plane will win the fight.
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A g10 can indeed turn low and slow with a P51...If you get 1 notch flap down you can keep that low turn circle with the p51...If he goes for more flaps,you go verticle...
One of the most fun fites in AH is these two plane when they both want in.
:)
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Urchin - thank you for your kind words. Amongst them, you said
the 109 can get the P-51 to bleed off its speed without getting into a position where the P-51 can shoot him. Once both planes are going slow, the 109 can start to build an energy advantage by climbing
- and I remember thinking that at the time. There was one iffy moment as I came round under the P51.
Widewing - how did you get those stats! I was slightly embarrassed...
The G6 will be my ride for a while, but I don't think I'll be able to chase down P51s - unless I have a little more alt to begin with, of course.
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Sirloin, I accept your claim as you've experienced it. My own experiences say a slow turning G10 cannot turn as well as a pony. There is a marked difference.
But the way, if I am fighting a slow turning G10, and I "go more flaps", then the g10 goes vertical, I'll retract my flaps to one notch and hose it out of the sky. :)
That move simply does not work for those who are ready for it.
Even in slow yoyo's, I have no trouble getting my nose on the g10 for a gun solution.
IMO unless the g10 goes vertical before the fight gets slow, it is dead meat.....every time.
in the last example, the pony is in big trouble....better nose down and get the G10 to pursue so that it is fast enough to lose some elevator authority. I recognize this problem early and stay off grabbing g10's...there's a guy who is really putting the fight on his most favorable terms.
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In the last 10 tours I have 39 kills to 6 deaths P51D vs Bf109G10. I've fought them high and low, turning and E fighting and the G10 is the only 109 I worry about when in the stang. I consider the G10 to be at least a match for the pony, if not a little better, except for high speed handling. Having said that;
It aint the plane, it's the pilot.
Only a few ponies are dangerous, picking 'em out of the herd is the fun part. ;)
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Originally posted by beet1e
Bluedog - as soon as you likened the G10 to an LA7, I found I could no longer fly it! Switched to the G6 today.
He he, didn't think you'd go to that extreme, but hey, well done man, I'm sure you will find the G6 just as fun as a G10, and just a bit more challenging.
You cant run down Ponies or Doras without a substantial altitude advantage to start with, but flown to its strengths, the G6 is quite an effective interceptor.........add the two extra 20mms under the wings, and it's a great Buff-Buster too.( allso suprises the piss outta Niki drivers when ya HO 'em right back......and win)
Allso, fly a G6 for a few months, and then get back in a G10 for a bit, the extra power/acceleration and speed will blow you away.
It's like fighting for months carrying a 1000lber, then droppping it one day :)
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Dont fly the G6 with gondolas.... In G6 you should use the single 20mm loadout.
Comparing the G10 to LA7 is idiotic! :)
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Dont fly the G6 with gondolas.... In G6 you should use the single 20mm loadout.
Comparing the G10 to LA7 is idiotic! :)
yes, g10 is a much superior plane.
:D
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Surprisingly, a 109G10 will outturn a N1K in a stallfight, and actually gains an edge the slower you go. I never even lowered in my flaps and could pull enough lead long enough to BB it to death.. It wasnt a newb N1K pilot either ;)
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Originally posted by Bluedog
109s are great, but G10s are LA7s for Luftweenies.
Grab a G6. With gondola cannon fitted.
Grab an A8 and fly like a man.
Fly like a man means dying most of the time though:D
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Originally posted by Lazerus
Grab an A8 and fly like a man.
Fly like a man means dying most of the time though:D
A8 is uber! Last tour I had 40 kills / 2 deaths in it. :D
(dunno how many vulches..:p )
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Like Urchin said...it's the pilot not the plane:)
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Originally posted by Rude
Like Urchin said...it's the pilot not the plane:)
Fear my Ki-61! Feeeear it! :p
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Originally posted by Lazerus
Grab an A8 and fly like a man.
Fly like a man means dying most of the time though:D
Problem is, A8s just make me fly like a complete tool :)
So Grun, comparing two late war monsters that represent the pinnacle of their kind in this game is idiotic?
Forgive my idiocy, but I'm standin' by my original statement.
G10s are a dweeb ride, just like LA7s are, any fool can get one to do allright in the MA.
Of course, this is all 'IMHO', YMMV, each to their own an' all that.
I'll stick with my G6/R6 thanks, I enjoy it.
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Originally posted by Bluedog
Problem is, A8s just make me fly like a complete tool :)
So Grun, comparing two late war monsters that represent the pinnacle of their kind in this game is idiotic?
Forgive my idiocy, but I'm standin' by my original statement.
G10s are a dweeb ride, just like LA7s are, any fool can get one to do allright in the MA.
Of course, this is all 'IMHO', YMMV, each to their own an' all that.
I'll stick with my G6/R6 thanks, I enjoy it.
So what exactly does it have goin for it besides iit's speed (on WEP) and climbrate(on WEP)? How is it even comparable to the la7?
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Incidentally, how really is the turn rate comparable between the late Bf109s(Bf109G-10/K-4) and the P-51B/D?
I notice a difference between the Bf109G-2, G-6 and the G-10 in turn capabilities.. while the differences between G-2 and G-6 is understandable, since same wing but heavier plane in the G-6.. but what about the G-2 and the G-10? Do they have the same wings? Isn't the power to weight ratio much stronger in the G-10, which would account for other factors inhibiting its turn capability?
What about the Bf109G-10 and the P-51D we have in AH? They are probably equal in many aspects.. but isn't both the weight and wingloading, heavier and larger on the part of the P-51D? Also, the power loading seems to favor the G-10, too, no?
If flaps manage to make such a large difference that it would allow the P-51D to outturn a G-10 in a sustained turn fight, how is it so? Would it be the ability to deploy 'combat flaps' that make such a difference, so the P-51 would gain an initial advantage?
Also on 'handling' issues, I thought the leading edge slats are specifically designed to cope with on-the-verge-of-stall issues with the 109.
..
All in all, I'm just curious.
If a P-51D with flaps would out-turn a G-10 with also 1~2 notch of flaps, wouldn't that mean the P-51 is a more stable plane in sustained turn fights, when the G-10 has a more powerful engine, WEP system, lighter weight, smaller wingloading?
Wouldn't that mean the flaps are producing lift which is powerful enough to overcome the fully deployed drag it is causing for prolonged period of time?
I can't see a reason why the P-51D would be able to out-turn a G-10.. can anyone clarify this issue?
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In a turn fight with a good G10 pilot I have never been able to outturn one with a D pony.
Of course, I've outturned plenty of newbies in G10s with the D pony.
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The only way I could see a 109G-10 out turning a P-51D in a sustained one circle fight is if the P-51 managed to get down to around 100 mph or so.. it would have a tiny little circle but it would take forever to get around it.
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I have no trouble out turning G10's in the pony. Kweassa, I don't know a thing about wing loading and engine power to be honest so I can't explain it intelligently. I do know that I out-turn G10's in my pony.
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Hmm.. rgr that, Steve.
so which is it?
Would a real life P-51Ds outturn real life Bf109G-10/K-4?
Would a AH P-51D outturn an AH Bf109G-10?
It'd be great to hear from some of the aircraft experts out here.
..
One interesting thing to note: in the "Kingcat's AH Data series", which includes the roll rate, accel rate, climb rate charts and etc, which some of you might know by now, there's also a turn rate comparison.
This comparison was done by using the AH internal 'stall limiter' system to minimize human errors - so, technically it's not a maximum turn rate figure. It's rather a turn rate comparison between planes, which stick deflection is set to the maximum limit up to the point before stall.
Tested height was initially 500ft with plus/minus 100ft margin. 25% fuel load with fuel burn off, 'normal' armament settings(ie. no gondolas in case of 109s, no 30mm in case of 190A-8 and etc.. US planes are tested with the 'overloaded' ammo option which people use as standard in AH)
After the aircraft reaches the standard height, speed set for the test, the plane went into a max stick pull with stall limiter on, for 3 full 360d turns - which would bring out the results on turn rate, but not necessary turn radius.
The time for the 3full turns, is as suggested in the link:
Kingcat's Turn Rate Comparison (http://kingcat.hihome.com/turnrate.html)
According to the tests, the P-51D 66 seconds on Mil, 63.5 on WEP. The Bf109G-10 does 60 seconds on Mil, 56 seconds with WEP...
Another interesting stat is the Bf109E-4 and the F-4 - two planes are almost identical.. which would probably mean the higher power on the F-4 accounted for overall same turn rate, while the radius, might be different.
I guess it'd come to what kind of radius a P-51D or a G-10 can pull with flaps, and how well a pilot would manage the plane, in this case..
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A quick look at E-M Diagrams for each aircraft will show the answer easily. I'm trying to find what I did with Badboys EM diagrams, I remember having some for the pony and 109.
If anyone has them, please post em here. It'll be nice to have some facts instead of just gut feelings... :)
Edited to add:
P51D Data (as tested by Leon "Badboy" Smith) - Sea Level, Mil power, 25% fuel, clean.
Corner velocity = 260 mph
Turn rate at corner velocity = 28.6 dps
Best sustained turn velocity = 173 mph
Turn rate at bstv = 17.9 dps
Turn radius at bstv = 815 ft
If someone has Bf109G10 data, please post it.
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Mako, ya may as well call me a a liar. fact: My K/d vs G10's is over 10/1
Fact: part of this is because I can out turn them in a pony.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
One interesting thing to note: in the "Kingcat's AH Data series", which includes the roll rate, accel rate, climb rate charts and etc, which some of you might know by now, there's also a turn rate comparison.
This comparison was done by using the AH internal 'stall limiter' system to minimize human errors - so, technically it's not a maximum turn rate figure. It's rather a turn rate comparison between planes, which stick deflection is set to the maximum limit up to the point before stall.
Tested height was initially 500ft with plus/minus 100ft margin. 25% fuel load with fuel burn off, 'normal' armament settings(ie. no gondolas in case of 109s, no 30mm in case of 190A-8 and etc.. US planes are tested with the 'overloaded' ammo option which people use as standard in AH)
After the aircraft reaches the standard height, speed set for the test, the plane went into a max stick pull with stall limiter on, for 3 full 360d turns - which would bring out the results on turn rate, but not necessary turn radius.
My own testing, done without stall limiter on provides much different results. I used 3 Gs as my control. I would roll into a turn at 250 mph, pull 3 Gs on the G-meter and sustain it as long as possible.
You can also calculate (reliably) turn radius (as an index) if you know the wing loading and maximum coefficient of lift.
For example, the Hurricane IIC cannot match the FM-2 in a sustained turn. This was affirmed by flying against a Hurri piloted by Grunherz. We entered a lefthand lufberry about 180 degrees apart. I was able to pull lead for a shot in less than 3 turns in the FM-2 (I had about 75% fuel). Likewise, I found that the A6M5 needed better than 4 turns just to gain 1/4 turn on the FM-2.
Kingcat's numbers for the La-7 compared to the the F6F-5 are misleading. My experience is that the Hellcat will fly circles around the Lavochkin in a low-speed turning fight.
Wing loading for the La-7, based up full internal load, is 39.6 lbs/sq ft. The F6F-5 comes in at 36.5 lbs/sq ft. Let's toss the P-51D in here too at 40.7 lbs/sq ft.
When we look at lift coefficient, the F6F-5 has the best, we find the F6F-5 at 2.27, the La-7 at 1.92 and the P-51D at 1.89. So, we can determine the following index for each fighter.
F6F-5: 16.08
La-7: 20.73
P-51D: 21.53
If we were to use flaps to aid turning, the Mustang gets the greatest benefit due to the ability to begin flap deployment at very high speed (400 mph). The Hellcat can begin deploying flaps at 250 mph. Bringing up the rear is the La-7 with flap deployment speeds just below 200 mph.
Whether flaps are used or not, the F6F-5 is the better turner by a considerable margin with a turn radius just 77% of the La-7 and 75% of the P-51D. Differences between the P-51D and La-7 are such that a notch or two of flaps in the P-51D should equalize turn radius.
Naturally, these numbers are based upon real world data, not the AH flight models. However, HTC used the same data in most if not all instances.
My regards,
Widewing
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Understood, Widewing.
Kingcat's numbers, like suggested, should not be a real standard on judging an outcome of a turn fight. Rather, it is a limited test on pure capabilities when equal amount of stick pull is put into a plane, starting from a set speed. Also, it does not note anything on turn radiuses nor the dynamic human judgements involving turn fights.
So I guess when it comes to the point where flaps come out, throttle moves about and rudders go kicking, that's the moment when results become unpredictable at best.
..
ps) How about the 109G-10 and the 51D? Any data on the real life comparisons in turn rate/radius of those two planes?
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Kweassa, how were done Kingcat's tests? Are these AH data, real world data, or what? I find too many discrepancies and too many generalizations.
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Mand, read first post of second page of this thread. In that thread, I wrote down the test conditions. It is the data of AH planes.
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Well, me and Bigmax kinda did a "test" in the DA. We merged head-on at 6k and both went into a left-hand turn. The results surprised me at least, the 109G-10 beat the P-51D around in the first circle, and was able to pull enough lead for a shot by the second circle (or third at the outside).
Apparently the G-10 can out-turn the P-51D in a 1 circle fight. Bigmax was in the 109, he said his speed never dropped below about 200 mph (still to fast to get any flaps out), and I kept the P-51 at 180-200 mph as well.
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Originally posted by Urchin
Well, me and Bigmax kinda did a "test" in the DA. We merged head-on at 6k and both went into a left-hand turn. The results surprised me at least, the 109G-10 beat the P-51D around in the first circle, and was able to pull enough lead for a shot by the second circle (or third at the outside).
Apparently the G-10 can out-turn the P-51D in a 1 circle fight. Bigmax was in the 109, he said his speed never dropped below about 200 mph (still to fast to get any flaps out), and I kept the P-51 at 180-200 mph as well.
Wouldn't that be a two circle fight if you both turned left?
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Originally posted by Urchin
Well, me and Bigmax kinda did a "test" in the DA. We merged head-on at 6k and both went into a left-hand turn. The results surprised me at least, the 109G-10 beat the P-51D around in the first circle, and was able to pull enough lead for a shot by the second circle (or third at the outside).
Apparently the G-10 can out-turn the P-51D in a 1 circle fight. Bigmax was in the 109, he said his speed never dropped below about 200 mph (still to fast to get any flaps out), and I kept the P-51 at 180-200 mph as well.
Ya i was there as a witness :D
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Urchin, did you use flaps in the Pony?
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Yes, I did. I started with one notch on the first circle, he beat me around. Went to two notches on the second circle and he beat me around again, went to 3 notches on the third circle and he beat me around by a bigger margin.
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Originally posted by Sable
Wouldn't that be a two circle fight if you both turned left?
You are right, sorry. It was a two circle fight.
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Doesn't the Pony turn better to the right than the Left due to engine torque? I know I always try to make my turns to the left in the 109's because of engine torque, and I thought that the german planes engine rotation was opposite of most allied planes. Did you ever try the same thing in the opposite direction Urchin?
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It also sounds like there are 2 types of turn rates being tested.
For sustained turn rates, you must be in a level turn , not a descending spiral.
HiTech
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Well that certainly surprised me, not that I can remember the last time I turned with a Pony in the G10, not the best way to fly that bird. Nice to know though.
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Originally posted by Steve
Mako, ya may as well call me a a liar. fact: My K/d vs G10's is over 10/1
Fact: part of this is because I can out turn them in a pony.
Liar, liar, pants on fire! :p
Steve think about what I said. I said I couldn't outturn a well flown 109G10 in my pony. I did also say that I have outturned plenty of Bf109G10's, just not ones that are flown properly to the edge of their envelope by a good pilot. Me, not you, me, this is not about you. I then asked for someone who had precise data on the 109G10 to post it. I posted precise data on the P51D. What part of seeking an objective resolution relates to a personal attack?
Also, note what Urchin and Bigmax found during their test. Interesting huh? I would still like to see some hard numbers on the AH 109 though.
If anyone has Badboy's EM diagrams for a G10, please post the numbers here.
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someone put my pants out. Mako, maybe someone who conducted those tests needs to learn to tun a pony better. :)
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Originally posted by Steve
someone put my pants out. Mako, maybe someone who conducted those tests needs to learn to tun a pony better. :)
Im sure Urchin has enough experiance in that department ;)
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I'm sure. OTOH I am pretty sure I didn't hallucinate the things I've seen so I'll just go w/ my own experiences.
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wanna go da? u ponyd, me 109g10 (maybe even with gondies) and we'll see what we come up with?
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Originally posted by Shane
wanna go da? u ponyd, me 109g10 (maybe even with gondies) and we'll see what we come up with?
God help the BBS should he get lucky and win:)
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Originally posted by Steve
I'm sure. OTOH I am pretty sure I didn't hallucinate the things I've seen so I'll just go w/ my own experiences.
Don't doubt that what you've stated is true....however, you would be wise to also realize that there are some in this game that might know a thing or two about how to horse a pony around(oh my...sometimes I crack myself up) better than you.
I know my squad has plenty of pony driving experience and having said that, it all comes down to the pilot. A G10 in the hands of Urchin, Hblair, Shane, WT and Drex will offer different results against you and your Mustang....not a knock on you, just a fact.
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Sax., Lucky? You need to get off your knees. Frankly, all this hero worship is tiresome. I've fought all the guys you and Rude mentioned, except for WT other than when I first started the game. Their planes all fall to pieces just like everyone else.
Shane is good at AH and I enjoy flying against him. Like anyone in the game, he's beatable.
That said, think about this: What would obliging him accomplish for me? It certainly wouldn't change what I've experienced. As I've alluded to, I'm not really out to change someone elses mind about which plane turns better, I stated what I have experienced. It won't go back in time and change what occurred. OTOH if Shane wins, I have to listen to him, and probably other AH elitists about how Godlike and omnicient they are. As far as the MA goes, I really am not particularly in awe of anyone, as you seem to be. Yes, there are all very talented sticks, and with an exception very nice and gracious people. In the DA, 1v1 and in the same plane, maybe every one of them would kick my tail. But the MA isn't anything like the DA. You can come back and crow that 1v1 coalt they are all better than me(must be nice to be prescient) but that doesn't mean squat in the arena.
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Don't doubt that what you've stated is true....however, you would be wise to also realize that there are some in this game that might know a thing or two about how to horse a pony around(oh my...sometimes I crack myself up) better than you.
Rude, I really have to agree. I simply don't think I am the "best" at turing a pony. Someone, probably several somoenes, is/are better at it than me.
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1--my only hero is Bobby Orr----well maybe Drex a little.
2--lighten up bud , just having a little fun--note smiley at end of post
3---I have no doubt you could kick my bellybutton in a pony or any other ride anytime ya wanted---everybody else can , just get in line:)
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Was that turn test with or without the 30mm? Gondolas?
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Sax.. I didn't mean to say I could beat you.. honest.
Besides, anyone that has Bobby Orr as a hero is a wise, sage person.
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Sax wears dresses....I have pics:)
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Urchin,what was the fuel load in your test?(Just curious):)
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I took 50%, believe he took 50% as well.
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Originally posted by sax
God help the BBS should he get lucky and win:)
Shane would win easily, G10 has most of the advantages.
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Montezuma, can I borrow your crystal ball? ther are a few things I'd sure like to know.