Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Hobo on October 27, 2000, 07:51:00 AM
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So what are the advantages and disadvantages to using Combat Trim? Is CT like Easy Mode in WB's? Or is it just what it says...constant trim while in a fight?
Your input is appreciated.
Thanks!
Bo
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If you are used to trimming your plane manually, you won't get much benefit from combat trim.
It's not easy mode, not even close. All it does is add a pre-programmed amount of trim for a given airspeed. It doesn't take into account whether you are turning, climbing, diving, what your throttle setting is, etc.
What it does is make the plane flyable without using the manual trims. You still have to hold the stick and pedals a little to fly straight, but not nearly as much as you have to do with combat trim off.
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Have mine turned off. More hindrance than a help but them I manually trim.
Eagler
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I use a combination of both. I leave CT turned on for normal flying, but when I enter combat, I usually manually trim depending on the situation.
I don't think it gives anyone an advantage.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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I don't use it, and don't manually trim that much. But, you'll not find me in the planes that need constant attention to trim that often.
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"It's not easy mode, not even close."
Hihihihihihi
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AH : Maniac
WB : -nr-1-
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also if your in a steep dive w/ CT on you may not be able to pull out. I had it bite me like that many times before I stopped using it...
udie
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I haven't used it yet, I oughta experiment with it though, just haven't gotten around to it. I use manual elevator trims a lot.
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I've found it to be more o a liability than a help
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StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://www.angelfire.com/nt/regoch/sig.gif)
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Maniac, have you ever flown easy mode in WB? It's nothing like AH combat trim. WB easy mode has an AoA limiter and it uses a closed loop control for trim.
Not that I have anything against WB easy mode. I always thought the whining about it was overmodeled.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 10-27-2000).]
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CT is not realistic. The real pilots didn't have it, so I see no need to even play with it. If Saburo Sakai was able to attain ace status without it, then surely I could do the same. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
fscott
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Funked,
So CT aint easy mode because its not the same as the WB easy mode?
It helps people fly the AC, i consider that an easy mode.
Regards
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AH : Maniac
WB : -nr-1-
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Tried CT for a couple of weeks when it was first introduced, then turned it off and went back to manual trims.
YMMV....
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Originally posted by Maniac:
Funked,
So CT aint easy mode because its not the same as the WB easy mode?
It helps people fly the AC, i consider that an easy mode.
Regards
That's just it Maniac, it doesn't help fly the plane. I used it for a month and it got me killed more than anything else. It trims the elevator down to keep level flight, which kills your initial turn rate or keeps you pointed at the ground and makes you auger. The only thing I noticed that it "helped" was flying level but it never even got the plane to fly "level" there's always a bit of roll.
It doesn't stop you from stalling or spinning. So to me it's not easymode. I used it for about a month when I had the stick spiking problems it helped me some then, but when I got the new HOTAS it did more harm than good.
udie
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"easymode" ..... people shudder at that word for some reason.
I don't use CT. No particular reason why. It was on by default when it first came out; I turned it off. Didn't notice any difference. I don't trim my plane either. I probably should learn how to do that someday. I guess I'm just an average Joe who likes to fly an have fun.
I don't use padlock either. Now *there's* another word that can make people shudder.
I *do* use dive brakes on the P38. Can't fly without 'em.
Fury
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Originally posted by Maniac:
Funked,
So CT aint easy mode because its not the same as the WB easy mode?
It helps people fly the AC, i consider that an easy mode.
Regards
Maybe so, Maniac. By that definition, you are correct.
I don't think it gives anyone an advantage though. I tried it, and found it actually was a disadvantage in combat. But thats from my experience.
Cobra
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Maniac, read Hobo's question again. He's asking a practical question about whether it's like WB easy mode or not, from a flying standpoint.
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Real pilots had analog trom wheels or handles. They knew what position of the wheel corresponded to which speed and could set it by feel without thinking.
They could also just turn the wheel untill the stick pressure dissapeared while the stick was off-center.
Even with a throttle hat or wheel we do not have a feel where our trim is. We have to look at the cockpit trim indicators or wait for the effects, (which we also cannot feel because of lack of stick feedback).
We do not have any sticks that can change their centering.
Also in reall life a 3-feet stick and realistic forces made it much easier to fly straigh without trim by compensating with the stick deflection.
Dealing with trim in WB and AH is much more difficult then it was in real life. Of course some people excell in it. But that difficulty has nothing to do with realism.
To the question:
AH CT does not stabilise the aircraft as WB EZ mode did. You stall and spin as easy as with manual trim. All it does is it save you a few keystrokes. You pay for that by not being in a perfect trim most of the time.
miko
[This message has been edited by miko2d (edited 10-27-2000).]
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Oh sorry.
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AH : Maniac
WB : -nr-1-
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(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
I miss seeing your P-51D. I still owe you a kill! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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HEHE! all i can say is check six (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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AH : Maniac
WB : -nr-1-
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I Absolutely LOVE WB's ez mode, and it's no joke. It gives me the opportunity to start my 4 year old son out flying, and teach him the basics. He absolutely loves it. I figure once he gets a grasp of the charateristics of Yaw/Pitch/ and Roll, and basic gunnery, I can Graduate him to AH in Offline mode. By then we'll have more drones that do more than circles around the airfield (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
P.S. To this date: my son has 2 Air to Air kills in WB's EZ mode. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Hamish!
(http://heathblair.tripod.com/assassins2.gif)
<===<The ASSASSINS>===> (http://www.cybrtyme.com/personal/hblair/mainpage.htm)
[This message has been edited by Hamish (edited 10-27-2000).]
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Hí !
Well, it might be that RL-Pilots didnt have or dont have CT. But that is not really a factor. And for anyone whos a HC-Realism-Freak: I once read a post by Andy Bush in which he stated that tha lack of good trim of a plane has as often decided an air-combat as the color of the pilots hair.
I dont know what you think - but haircolor doesnt seem to be a major point to me concerning AC. I trust Andy when he talks about such things - just like any reasonable person should w less RL-combat-experience than he has. I have none, to make that clear.
So, it shoundnt do no difference if someone uses CT. At least when we compare it to RL.
And I have to say I use it. But not all the time. And the reason therefore is easy: Ever got cought in a spin w CT on? It really sucks because CT "pulls" on the stick all the time...
As someone stated above: when flying fast and trying to turn hard - u wont be able to go to the AC's limits in AH when CT is on. When such a person has it turned on he is more likely to overshoot and not to pull enough lead to hit the nme. If it is turned off he can do all the things above - but then he is risking to overstress the plane. And then I would like to know: how often did it happen the RL-Pilots would overstress their plane in RL when in full control of the AC? I dont think it has happened often...
To make a long story short: Noone should have and IMHO has a signifikant advantage by using CT. And therefore it is not an easymode (although I dont know how easy mode really worked in WB, AH is my first online-sim but it sounds like giving an advantage).
OK, thats it...thx for your attention (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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CU
Purzel
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"Find the enemy and shoot him down, everything else is nonsense!"
M. von Richthofen
[This message has been edited by Purzel (edited 10-27-2000).]
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I second what Purzel said.
Those of you that think trim somehow separates the men pilots from the boy pilots in RL air combat need to re-read the numerous posts Andy Bush has made on the subject.
Due to the way the flight models in this game AND WB were designed, trim has a completely, absolutely OVEREMPHASIZED role in dogfighting. It is a "game" aspect rather than a RL aspect to online air combat.
CT is an attempt to correct that, pure and simple.
Now, as to Hobo's question, I don't use CT. At the present time, I don't think it helps me. I feel I can trim faster and more effectively using the manual mode. I think with a little practice, you can too.
I look forward to the continued development of CT, however.
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I tried CT for a couple of weeks, but found it to be more of a hindrance than a help, so I disabled it.
I also don't use the padlock.
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Originally posted by banana:
I also don't use the padlock.
Thread Hijacker!!!
Cobra (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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It amuses me that people think that pressing keys on a computer keyboard is somehow a more realistic way to handle aircraft trim than CT. Don't remember seeing keyboards in any WWII fighter cockpits. I think HTC did a great job with CT... made it so you don't have to deal with trim if you don't want to, but there seems to be circumstance where you can get more performance if you manage trim yourself. To each his own.
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don't give in hblair!!
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I hate combat trim...it just gets in the way of you controlling the aircraft. The worst is when you're taking off...I always auto climb my niki shortly after I leave the runway. Try doing this with combat trim on...Nose, meet ground (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
SOB
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I would like to take credit for Combat Trim in AcesHigh.
I also invented the internet and my realtionship with my wife was the inspiration for "Love Story"......
YeaGORE
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Oh yeah....
Combat trim is like training wheels. I recommend it to people until they can comprehend what being in/out of trim is/does.
I also recommend people getting a highly programable stick/throttle and putting the trim controls on a hat switch. Once a person does this, they do not benifit any from combat trim and the flight experience is thoroughly immersive when performed manually.
yeaGER
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I would suggest the use of CT for any recruit in AH....It will not be of benefit once your skills have increased.
I found that I can fly the 51 more effectively without it than I can with it...I felt that I got ahead of the aircraft in combat while using it.
If your new to AH and are having probs trimming out, then by all means use it...don't want anyone to get frustrated and leave AH prematurely (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Ice
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I use CT, unless I need to kick in a little extra elevator to pull out of a dive, etc. It disables as soon as you hit any manual trim key, so no big deal. I love how people think its not realistic because real pilots didnt have it. Real pilots also couldnt climb out on their wings in midflight to bend a trim tab lol. And do you think they flew in dogfights with one hand on the stick, and one hand on a trim wheel? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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LJK_Raubvogel
LuftJägerKorps (http://www.luftjagerkorps.com)
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Hey! I might not mess with CT, But I admit to being an auto-takeoff dweeb.
I Just click fly and I can be AFK for up to 5 minutes. I can run around the house, quick honeydoo or two, straighten out the kids, take a squat, grab a snack, and be back right as my G10 is hitting 20k.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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hehe I might have to start using your technique hblair. Took off on a mission in a loaded P-47 last night. Had just gotten to about 2k, when I hear a sound that can only mean one of my kids is about to murder the other. Turned my head to yell a few "calming" words (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).Looked back in time to pull up at about 10 ft, stall, spin and auger. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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LJK_Raubvogel
LuftJägerKorps (http://www.luftjagerkorps.com)
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Originally posted by fscott:
CT is not realistic. The real pilots didn't have it, so I see no need to even play with it. If Saburo Sakai was able to attain ace status without it, then surely I could do the same. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
fscott
Yes, but the real pilots didn't have autotrim either. And they couldn't go to the bathroom in the air, not to mention go get a beer (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
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Rickenbacker (Ricken)
-ISAF-
the Independent Swedish Air Force
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oh yeah, we have padlock now too, don't we. Does _anyone_ actually use that? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Rickenbacker (Ricken)
-ISAF-
the Independent Swedish Air Force
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Don't listen to that Andy Bush guy.
I know for a fact that his w/l record is about 1/82...and the last time he used CT, he tried a Split S and impacted the ground somewhat at the target's six...
:-)
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"And do you think they flew in dogfights with one hand on the stick, and one hand on a trim wheel?"
I recall reading a Mustang pilot saying he did just that...
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Originally posted by juzz:
"And do you think they flew in dogfights with one hand on the stick, and one hand on a trim wheel?"
I recall reading a Mustang pilot saying he did just that...
I'd like to meet him, or someone like him.
Just about everyone I know flies high performance aircraft with one hand on the stick and the other on the throttle/prop controls, particularly when doing ACM type maneuvering.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Oh no, Toad, didn't you know that all pilots in WW2 just firewalled the throttle and left it there (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) [/sarcasm]
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LJK_Raubvogel
LuftJägerKorps (http://www.luftjagerkorps.com)
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Next time I go flying I think I'll put my hands behind my head and do the Macarena!
Should work!
...........did they do the Macarena in WW2? The did didn't they?
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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I'm not a combat pilot, but I do compete in aerobatics. No akro pilot that I know fiddles with his trim during a contest sequence. Most of them set the trim up for straight and level flight with comp power, and then leave it there during all maneuvers.
It is far more important to keep your left hand on the throttle while maneuvering. Trim is merely a way to reduce the muscular force you must exert on the controls, and to set the plane up for hands-off flight at a given airspeed. It should not be a factor in ACM.
I'll concede that aerobatics and fighter combat are different. Akro tends to push the low speed corners of the performance envelope a little more than fighter combat, where speed is life. But it still seems to me that the only sensible way for a fighter pilot to fight would be to set the trim for level flight at combat speed and power, and then leave it alone so he can concentrate on maneuvering and firing.
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_54Ed
FA Squadron RAF 54th
"Up there the world is divided into bastards and suckers. Make your choice."
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54ED, the trim changes (and subsequent stickforce changes) were sometimes so high in WW2 planes, that a trim change were necessary in order keep the desired attitude.
On the other hand, in aerobatic planes, the aim is to make the stickforces as light as possible. In most of them, you can do any manuever with one hand on the stick, where as in a WW2 plane, you could be exposed to stickforces in excess of 50lbs.
I've read several accounts, in particular from P-40 and P-51 pilots, where they changed trim during the manuever.
Also, it was the norm to leave the throttle against the firewall.
Daff
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CO, 56th Fighter Group
"This is Yardstick. Follow me"
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54Ed has it right.
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Originally posted by Daff:
I've read several accounts, in particular from P-40 and P-51 pilots, where they changed trim during the manuever.
Also, it was the norm to leave the throttle against the firewall.
Daff
I would like to see the references you used for these statements please.
ammo
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Sure,
"Thunderbolt!" Robert S. Johnson
"Gabby, A fighter pilots life" Francis Gabreski
"Dancing in the Skies" Tony Johnson
"Beware of the Thunderbolt" (Got that book at work, can't remember the author)
"Zemke's Wolfpack" Hubert Zemke
There's also several discussion on the issues in
"Report of Joint Fighter Conference; NAS Patuxent River, MD, 16-23 Oct. 1944"
Now..do you have any references that say the opposite?
Daff
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CO, 56th Fighter Group
"This is Yardstick. Follow me"
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Daff,
Can you post any paragraphs that explained how they got guys to overshoot in a scissors using the trim wheel?
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Seems I recall you mentioning you had some flying time, so you know that trim in any axis is a secondary flight control. Further, you know that many of these WW2 aircraft didn't have 3 axis trim..some didn't even have 2 axis trim. Beyond that, you know that all these cockpit designs ergonomically favor one hand on the stick and one hand on the throttle quadrant; they are carefully designed that way. Further, any study of WW2 cockpit trim wheel placement shows that the trim wheels usually are not as easily accessible as the throttle/prop controls.
No one is saying that "No one ever trimmed in combat". I'm sure some did spin in a quick turn or two.
But "one hand on the stick and one hand on the throttle" is and was the normal way to fight....and you know it.
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Ok sure combat trim is not an easy mode. BUT since 1.04 the AC´s are very easy to fly. I dont like this.
Regards.
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AH : Maniac
WB : -nr-1-
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Daff
>>Now..do you have any references that say the opposite?<<
You didn't give references, only book titles.
It seems your info comes from what you read. Good, but only to a point. It would be more credible if you had actual flight time.
Some of us do. Like Toad and me. In fighters. And we're trying to tell you that what you are inferring is wrong. Trim is not routinely used in air combat maneuvering. The pilot keeps his hands on the throttle and stick most of the time. Since trim only relieves stick and rudder loads, when those loads become significant (in a dogfight) the normal response is to hold the pressure and not fool around with the trim.
Why? Because the airspeed change (or throttle change in the case of piston engined fighters) that caused the trim change is only going to be transitory.
A fighter is a fighter is a fighter...WW1, WW2, or today...no one with any brains flys around a full throttle all the time.
I appreciate your interest and enthusiasm...but, please a little less bull-headedness unless you have the flight time to back it up.
Andy
[This message has been edited by Andy Bush (edited 10-30-2000).]
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Sorry, I dont have any sticktime in a WW2 fighter. (Trainer, yes, fighter no).
(And I really dont think you can compare a 2000hp WW2 fighter with a 2-300hp trainer).
As for bullheadeness, I only replied in the manner I was asked.
As for leaving the throttle wide open in a scissor..please dont take it that literally...but I'll still stand by that most of the combat took place with the throttle wide open.
"Why? Because the airspeed change (or throttle change in the case of piston engined fighters) that caused the trim change is only going to be transitory."
You're still forgetting the stickforces involved and the speedranges. With your average aerobat, you're working within 0-150 knots..they were working with 150-400+mph.
I *really* recommend reading the report from the Joint Fighter Conference. It gives a very good picture of what kind of enviroment a WW2 cockpit was, especially compared to the modern ones we have today.
Daff
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CO, 56th Fighter Group
"This is Yardstick. Follow me"
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Daff
>>You're still forgetting the stickforces involved and the speedranges. With your average aerobat, you're working within 0-150 knots..they were working with 150-400+mph.<<
I'm not forgetting anything. My experience in knife fights that ranged from 0 knots to 700knots+ is that trim was not used with regularity. The intensity of a close-in, very highly dynamic angles fight is such that trimming is one of the last things that I or anyone else had time to think about.
As for throttle control in a scissors...it depends on the type of scissors. In the classic horizontal scissors, once the two adversaries are fully engaged (meaning comparable energy states), then it is typical to be at full throttle. On the other hand, in a descending rolling scissors, where gravity is providing a measure of energy retention, the throttle may well be in idle.
My experience in high angle of attack, slow speed maneuvering ranges from the Piper Cub to the F-104. With regard to trim changes and its effect on stick feel, I don't consider the subject to be of special significance.
Here it is in a nutshell. We take the airplane and we put it where we want it. How 'heavy' or 'light' the stick may feel is irrelevant to the effectiveness of the maneuver.
Andy
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Andy,
I know you're right. You know you're right. That may be the best we can hope for.
Maybe Daff will share his stick time/type experience with us. He may have some insights we lack.
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Heh..not very much (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
A couple of hours on a Yak52, another couple in a Pitts S2A, 10 or so in DH82a and 70 odd in a Beagle Pup.
The only plane of those that remotely resembles a WW2 fighter, is the Yak52. (Radial, yummy.)...and it certainly also have the stickforces (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
Full aileron deflection takes two hands and you'll very quickly get very large thigh muscles from the rudder.
Daff
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CO, 56th Fighter Group
"This is Yardstick. Follow me"
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Got a couple of questions. I never manually trimmed in 1.03 and I leave CT on in 1.04. This is because:
a) I haven't really got a clue what use trimming is.
I understand that you can trim an aircraft to fly at a particular pitch or level, so the pilot has to put less input in to the flight controls. Do you use it in combat to gain more movement in your control surfaces (i.e. turn sharper, reach a climb angle more quickly)?
b) I don't have enough buttons on my joystick as it is, without trying to add more functions! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Cheers. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 10-31-2000).]
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Dowding
There are two questions here...(1) what is trim?...and (2) how is trim set up in Aces High?
This is a real world versus simulation issue. I imagine you are only interested in the sim.
In AH, trim is modeled in all three axes (pitch, roll, and yaw). Keyboard commands allow the pilot to adjust the axis settings, usually as function of airspeed or engine power setting. The objective is to adjust the settings until the aircraft remains stable in pitch, roll, and yaw (regardless of actual aircraft attitude). This means the aircraft can be trimmed for a climb or descent as well as level flight.
The Combat Trim option is basically an 'auto-trimmer' that removes much of the pilot workload in adjusting trim settings as airspeed and power changes.
Some like Combat Trim, some don't...I think the jury is still out on the subject! It is quite possible that the advanced player will get a better response in some parts of the flight envelope when using a manual trim set-up.
There have been quite a few discussions on this matter. Do a forum search here and in the Help And Training Forum under the subject 'trim' for more info. August and September were particularly active.
If you need any more help, let me know.
Andy
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Andy does Fighter Ace have a more realistic FM then?
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easymo
I don't know...I've never tried Fighter Ace.
I'm not in the 'gotta have a perfect FM' group of players. As long as the FM is reasonable, then I'm happy.
Of course, it all depends on what the word 'reasonable' means. It's sorta like that old saying about obscenity..."I don't know what it is, but I'll know it when I see it!!"
For example, the A-10 FM in Janes USAF. Now that's 'unreasonable'!!
As for AH, I'm quite happy with its FM. And most everything else for that matter. (I just wish it had a good 'player to target' external view...but that's another issue!!)
Andy
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"I just wish it had a good 'player to target' external view... "
Slim Pickens MODE!!!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) I second that.
-Westy
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Originally posted by easymo:
Andy does Fighter Ace have a more realistic FM then?
Hi Easymo,
That's an interesting question and from what I see in in threads, there are probably even more misguided ideas relating to realistic flight modeling than there are about combat trim (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
To answer your question though, at this point in time I believe AH leads the field by a significant margin.
Badboy
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I don't use CT most of the time, I flip it on/off, when I need a quick trim(then manual trim to set plane for my style)...
When CT sets my plane, it tends to climb. But I feel comportable a little descending while neutral. Maybe this is because pulling stick is easier than push stick, in my desk. ... I don't know :> Anyway I don't like that 'trimed point' of the CT. That's why I don't use CT as main use of Trim. It changes the 'feel' of the plane.
After reading this post, I'm feeling that maybe we are flying over-modeled-trim planes... Maybe trim should not affect the 'feeling' of flying.
what do you think? I've never flown any real plane, so I don't know. Can you please tell me that, a trim really affects the feeling/handling of Flying? or is trim just a mere physical 'force on stick' problem?
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anyway, in AH, trimming does effects feeling of flying. and CT hurts my feeling, so I can't really use it. Maybe user-adjustable CT would solve? :) too complex? :>
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Originally posted by Daff:
Full aileron deflection takes two hands and you'll very quickly get very large thigh muscles from the rudder.
Daff
What? Why didn't you just keep one hand on the stick and one on the aileron trim???
(http://smilecwm.tripod.com/net6/laugh2.gif)
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Probably irrelevant here but: I have also read many times in recollections of pilots using trim. However: I think we may be misunderstanding something here. The pilots were usually using large trim adjustment wheels to move elevator trim etc etc. This wheel on most WWII fighters is RIGHT BESIDE THE THROTTLE. (sorry for caps). Thus if my understanding is right for the most part the trimming consisted of pulling your guts out on the stick then slapping the wheel forward or back in preperation for the next manuever. IE: in a pony if you were going into a loop you wouldn't touch the trim on the way up .. but on the way down you would roll that wheel back to let your self pull harder when you needed to pull out.
This AFAIK from the description was almost an unconcious thing- you knew you were going to need leverage in some manuevers and the cockpit was usually made so this was easy to do. It wasn't like they were "thinking" they were trimming- most seem to feel it was a natural thing to do. Also- this sems to be 90% related to elevator trim as this was AFAIK the only trim wheel right beside the throttle and pitch controls on almost every WWII fighter I have ever seen the cockpit pictures of.
If what I am saying makes sense Andy and Toad are right- it wasn't needed but rather in planes that had HIGH stick forces needed to manuever pilots would operate those wheels without thinking- rather like when driving a car we don't think about everything we do after a point- we just do it.
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Sorrow
Good post...and you mentioned a couple of things that can be added to.
First, let's look at a typical trim control layout...in this case, a P-51:
(http://www.doitnow.com/~alfakilo/trim.jpg)
You make a good point about the size and location of the elevator trim wheel. As the picture shows, it is fairly large. It is mounted vertically to allow easier actuation. The pilot uses his left hand to rotate the trim wheel forward (clockwise) to trim nose down, and back for nose up. He can do this several ways.
Small adjustments are easy...just turn the wheel. For larger adjustments, many pilots found that they could make the input quicker by rotating the wheel with their palm...by placing their palm on the top of the wheel and then pushing or pulling to move the wheel through a larger rotation.
As you said, most trim inputs in a typical flight were made to the elevator. Rudder and aileron trim changes were less frequent. Because of this, these trim controls were twist knobs and were smaller and less easy to move in large increments.
While I seldom comment upon technique, I would note that arbitrarily adding 'nose up' trim on the back side of a loop would probably be unneccessary as long as the pilot intended on flying more or less of a symmetrical maneuver. If so, the exit speed would be about what the entry speed had been. Since the aircraft had been trimmed for the entry speed to begin with, the pilot would not notice any undue stick forces as he finished the maneuver. In fact, if he were to notice any out-of-trim forces during the maneuver, it would be at the top of the loop when the aircraft is at its slowest speed. If the pilot did not trim (nose up) in the pull up, the stick would get increasingly 'heavy' as his speed bled off...but then the feel would return towards 'neutral' as his speed increased coming back down.
With regard to A2A maneuvering, most trim changes comes as a result of airspeed changes brought about by maneuvers in the vertical or airspeed loss due to G-induced drag.
There are two factors in trimming during A2A maneuvering that should be considered. One is the magnitude of the trim change needed to keep the controls 'neutral' or 'hands off' as many pilots refer to it. In A2A combat, speed changes can be quite large, and the resultant trim change to maintain 'hands off' is also quite large.
Second is the time it takes the pilot to manipulate the trim control to make the needed change versus the time that elapses while he is in the maneuver. While the elevator trim wheel was designed to assist the pilot in making inputs quickly, often the speed changes occurred faster than the pilot could keep up with them. Often, the maneuver would be complete before the pilot would have the time to trim out the stick.
Because of this, many pilots elected to leave the trim alone during an engagement where speeds were changing rapidly. In prolonged conditions, such as a diving extension where the speed was expected to increase and then stay there, the pilot would probably trim off the stick pressure.
Finally, from a practical perspective, I found in my experience in A2A maneuvering that trim was way down my list of priorities. Not that trim wasn't important...it's just that other things had more of my attention. Things such as lift vector control, rates of closure, weapon envelopes, switchology, radio calls, SA on matter such as fuel state, fight location, and position of other bandits. These things kept me quite busy...trim was something I might adjust if I had nothing else more pressing...and this was seldom the case!
Andy
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Right, what Andy said. This how I fight in AH, think about maneuvering, what's around me, my fuel state... anything but trim, becase I've already set a somewhat neutral trim that won't require huge stick movements to overcome, and don't have to worry about it.
Incidentally, this is how I fly in real life too, not that I've ever flown a combat aircraft, I fly gliders. And those trim wheels look overmodelled Andy, we usually only have a little teensy weensy lever for elevator trim. Of course, who needs aileron trim when you don't have a big noisy engine ruining all your maneuvers (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif).
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Rickenbacker (Ricken)
-ISAF-
the Independent Swedish Air Force
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Rickenbacker
>>And those trim wheels look overmodelled Andy, we usually only have a little teensy weensy lever for elevator trim<<
That is a real world picture from the USAF P-51 flight manual, not the sim.
Andy
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IE: in a pony if you were going into a loop you wouldn't touch the trim on the way up .. but on the way down you would roll that wheel back to let your self pull harder when you needed to pull out.
No need to trim at any point during a loop, mate. Before you enter the maneuver, you trim the plane for level flight at fast cruise with power and prop at maneuver setting.
In a low power acro trainer, you will need to dive a bit to get entry speed, then level off briefly. You will need forward stick pressure to keep it level at entry speed, because it is trimmed for a slightly slower speed.
The pullup is a 3.5G pull ... easy to do, just pull til you feel it in the seat of your pants. No big deal, no trim required.
As you pass thru vertical and airspeed decays, you will need to pull the stick back further because control effectiveness decreases. Stick forces reduce as you slow down.
As you float over the top, you ease off on the stick to keep the loop round. You are going slow at this point, and there is very little stick force required.
As you come down the backside, you increase pressure again. On the final pullup, you pull 3.5Gs again. No trim is required for this, because it takes the exact same stick force that the pullup did. You finish at the same airspeed and altitude that you started at.
A few further comments on trim in combat. Stick forces increase with airspeed. After all, what is stick force but the air pushing back at you, right? So you would NOT need to trim for momentary slow-speed conditions, because the physical forces involved are lighter.
So, logically, the only time you would really need to trim to reduce stick forces would be if you were going much faster than your trimmed-for speed, like in a fast dive like Andy says. A few quick turns of the wheel in a sustained high speed dive is reasonable. But you reduce the need for this sort of thing if you trim for a nice fast combat speed before you enter the fight. Then you can just leave it alone, and keep HOTAS.
As for aileron trim, I can't think of a situation when you would EVER need to fiddle with it during a fight. After all, you would constantly be rolling in different directions. Aileron trim is strictly to make life easy during level cruise.
Likewise for rudder. The only situation I can think of where you MIGHT need to jockey the rudder trim would be if you trimmed for a slow speed and low torque, and then you dove really fast at full power, and the yaw was so large that you couldn't keep your nose on target to fire. Tweaking the trim might be a better option than kicking the rudder hard, to reduce oscillations that would interfere with shooting.
Man, I love hangar flying. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Andy does Fighter Ace have a more realistic FM then?
No, not by a long shot.
I'm not a flight model snob either. I played FA regularly for almost 3 years, and I like it. But for realism, it doesn't hold a candle to AH. Evidence: the "full realism" settings room of FA is empty because all the players left to come to AH.
FA's merit is in the gameplay. The bases are close together and the pilots are packed in like sardines, so the dogfights come fast and furious. It's a great place to learn the basics of ACM geometry without worrying about pesky little details like having to fly the plane.
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I've got 1 point/question/clarification to add to this thread...
The FM here is/has evolved as variables are added/tweaked. If I remember correctly Andy helped me (and other trainers) sort out trim issues related to ACM. At that time the overall feeling was that applying some elevator trim did tighten turns in knife fighting. I believe it was shown that instead of trim functioning as a secondary control surface it actually extended the range of the primary control surface at the extremes. At that time trimming a plane did effect the FM envelope and allow for expanding the edge of the envelope. I do believe that this was one of the major FM issues addressed in 1.04.
Since the inclusion of cobat trim I've noticed it's ability to lock up planes at very high speeds as the near point of compression. I do know that in a high speed dive I'll often need to use max elv trim to recover...and often watched con trailing auger in.
Obviously Andy,Toad and 54ed have the real life stick time to explain how it really works...I'm not sure who has the clarity on how the AH FM trim works. I do feel manually trimming is a plus here still.
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Humble
>>I do know that in a high speed dive I'll often need to use max elv trim to recover...and often watched con trailing auger in.<<
LOL! That con was probably me!
I do agree. CT seems to accentuate the onset of 'compressibility' or whatever passes for it in this sim. In many WW2 fighters, control stiffening was not a function of compressibility so much as it was a matter of high speed airloads that the pilot was unable to deal with.
As you correctly point out, pilots are well advised to be alert in dives of any length...and to be ready to use trim to help their pull outs...otherwise, they won't make it!
At this point, I'm tending to side with the folks that de-emphasize CT...and go with a manual trim set up for a typical 'begin engagement' speed...say 250-300mph. Then I leave the trim alone unless needed for a pull out. This is particularly applicable for BnZ'ers who may find themselves in vertical slashing attacks.
Someone also made a suggestion to trim slightly nose heavy for better control 'feel'. I agree on this technique also.
Let's hear from some more of you experienced guys...what are your trim techniques?
Andy
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One other point here: Those of you comparing a WWII fighter to an acro plane- please stop that. It's not correct and you should know better. Any acro plane flown now is an evolution from designs and lessons learned from planes in the forties and WWII fighters behaved nowhere near as politely as those planes will.
You also should consider in regards to trim that there were defined limits you could pull on the stick in WWII fighters- for example in a 109 it was physically impossible to pull harder than 40 lbs PSI of pressure on that stick. In lower speeds this meant nothing but when the plane went faster even before lockup you could be reefing on a stick that allready had 20-30 lbs of pressure forcing it away. In a case like this the pilot would undoubtedy learn quickly to anticipate trim changes and "palm" the wheel like andy mentioned so he could exert more force.
Aside from that CT to me has some oddities. For starters:
When pulling tight turns I have found CT makes all planes in the game snaproll to the left at or around 180mph despite it's normal stall speed. This includes the P-38 and happens even if your feeding a gentle right hand aileron in. Using rudder makes the departure occur quicker. Backing off stick travel slows the turn and allows the plane to travel closer to stall speed before snaprolling.
When turning I found that CT would accentuate slight rolls- A good example is that in films when someone is flying 90% of the time when the line up a tracking shot that passes under their nose they will fire to the right of the target. This is because as they lined up the target and pulled through the CT rolled them incremently right which meant as they passed under the nose the bullets missed and the shooter doesn't see.
Also- I have seen the CT use odd amounts of trim to compensate rudder on the P-38. Often you will see CT slide the trim to the left on the lightning for no apparent reason.
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I always trim for combat using auto trim as i begin merege...as plane comes into icon range i'll trim nose down a bit...starts the nose down part of merge I tend to favor...as I move to my lead turn I'll start to dial in up trim on elv as I slow down. i leave the rest alone mostly...little bit of right trim on the airleons maybe...I'll use my pedals to center the ball and leave rudder trim alone....now if we totally down on deck...less in 1.04...I'll fool more...seems like it still widens envelope...even though it shouldn't.
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Sorrow:
Those of you comparing a WWII fighter to an acro plane- please stop that. It's not correct and you should know better.
I assume you mean me.
I never state that a WWII fighter flies exactly like an acro plane. But the laws of aerodynamics and physics have not changed in 60 years. Some posts show no understanding of the physics of flight, so I am trying to be helpful. Want an example? Here's one:
IE: in a pony if you were going into a loop you wouldn't touch the trim on the way up .. but on the way down you would roll that wheel back to let your self pull harder when you needed to pull out.
On a correctly flown loop IN ANY AIRPLANE you do not have to "pull harder" on the pullout than on the initial pullup. The airspeed, G force, and stick force are the same.
Look, you're as free as anyone else to post whatever you like. But don't try and tell me to keep my opinions to myself. This is an interesting topic, and I'll continue to post as I see fit.
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Originally posted by humble:
I believe it was shown that instead of trim functioning as a secondary control surface it actually extended the range of the primary control surface at the extremes. At that time trimming a plane did effect the FM envelope and allow for expanding the edge of the envelope... I do feel manually trimming is a plus here still.
Humble, I think it may still extend the range of travel. This laptop won't run the game for some reason but try this:
Offline use the external view from the rear on the runway. With elevator trim neutral, pull the stick full aft. Note elevator position. Now trim full nose up while watching the elevator. Does it move further?
Let me know what you find.
I agree with you though. I find manual trimming is still more precise and "user friendly". CT sometimes moves the trim in directions I'm not expecting...I don't care for that; I'd rather put it in myself so I know what's going on.
Just my .02.
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I certainly don't know how some get the idea they can perform better without CT engaged. I suspect that it is a more of a personal preference. The pre 103 FM did allow increased turn rate by the use of elevator trim, 104 FM does not allow that from what I can notice.
From what I have observed, all CT has done is reduce pilot workload. I don't seem to be trimming any less often, but when I do trim I don't have to trim as much.
IE: I am on the trim controls almost as frequently, but the trim input has much less duration. The use of CT keeps the trim closer to perfect.
For instance, in AH I trim from habit. If I notice any A/C movement with the stick centered or a stick force required to maintain my desired flight aspect, I trim.
Very simple...
I will also comment that I also instinctively hit "AutoTrim" at almost every opportunity, particularly AutoLevel, for a few seconds. This quickly trims my plane perfectly for the speed that I am at and re-engages CT.
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
"Hind tit suckin whiners. Begone with yah!"
Hangtime
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I meant no-one in particular actually- just a general trend of people to compare planes that are apples to oranges. IE Acro planes are a start to thinking how a WWII plane would fly- but then dump 6 tons of weight a completely inneficient (with few exceptions like 190 or P-47) ergonomic and low mechanical efficiency.. IE so on so forth.
The loops was maybe a poorer example but not totally- as the loops became succesive stress would become greater on the pilot and as he lost airspeed he would probably allow his loop to loosen on the fall to gain speed. The point is that the wheel would be used- and often especially as stick forces became high or the pilot's arms became sore or tired.