Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: davidpt40 on August 14, 2003, 11:01:19 AM
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Lets say there was a temporary cease-fire from mid-summer 1945 to January 1st 1946. Germany has not fallen, nor has japan. What 6 fighter aircraft would each country be using and what would its equivalent be?
U.S.----- Germany ---- JAPAN
P51H---- FW-190D---- (Jap ME-262 version)
F-82---- TA-152H ---- (Jap D0335 version)
P-80---- Me-262 ---- KI-84
P-47N----- HO-229 ---- ?
F8F----- HE-162---- ?
F4U-4 ---- DO-335----- ?
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In the ETO I suppose it would be P-51H's, P-47M & Ns and P-80s for the US. Tempest Mk. II and Spitfire Mk 21 I believe for the RAF, along with Meteors for the RAF. The usual SWOTL suspects for the Luftwaffe.
Aside from the jets that a pretty ugly matchup for the Luftwaffe.
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And miraculously Japan and Germany was able to build new factories and refineries, aquire vast amounts of raw materials and rare alloys and also discover huge untapped oil reserves under Tokyo and Berlin? ;)
And don't forget the UK who were not asleep behind the wheel at all as far as jets and advanced piston aircraft were concerned. They had several new models in prodution or in pre-production development (spare me the pure fantasy Luft'46 planes that never made it beyond drawings on the the weinerschnitzel stained Bierhaus napkins please) like the MB.5, Vampire, Swallow, and the Fury/SeaFury for three examples.
.U.S.-----------------------Germany ---- JAPAN
P51D/H,P-47M/N--------FW-190D------
P51H,P-72,P-47M/N----TA-152H -------
F-84,P-80,P-79----------Me-262 -------(Kikka)
P-80,P-79-----------------HO-229 -------
F-84,P-80,P-79-----------HE-162--------
P-72,P47M----------------DO-335--------(never had a DO-335 copy)
F8F,F4U-4,F7F-----------..............-------KI-84,A7M,N1K2
AD-1----------------------- ??? ---------- ????
Also, the USAAF and USN had these (or would have had the productions been halted or cancelled due to wars end)
(jet fighters)
F-84
FJ-1
F6U-1
FD-1
F2D-1
(fast & heavy bombers)
B-32
B-35
B-36
B-42
B-43
B-45
B-46
B-47
B-49
B-50
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Probably should be in the aircraft forum but here goes.
Somehow I don't think the B-36 and up would have made it into production in time for a restart of hostilities in early 1946. Read the history of the B-36 over at Joe Baugher's encyclopedia of aircraft. It is very interesting reading for a short time.
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That's true. But this is alternate reality topic where the Axis did not succumb in 1945 but held on into and thru 1946. I took the liberty of forcing desperation and 11th hour despair onto the 1945 Allied powers that they had back in 1940 thru early 43. The same impetus thjat drove the Axis in late 43 to 1945.
This is convenient for me to help ensure the expidited development and production of aircraft, that in reality the Allies dragged thier tulips on, in late 44 and into 1945. In real life the Allies had realised that what they had on hand and what was in production was more than enough and adequate to win the war.
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RAF would have Sea Fury/Fury, DeHavilland Hornet (look this one up, its amazing - Hornet is the fastest twin piston-engined fighter ever to fly.. :D), Spits up to mk.24 as well as the jets Meteor and DeHavilland Vampire
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I'm going with the A-Bomb
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Cheesuz Rude you played that card early. ;)
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Originally posted by Westy
Cheesuz Rude you played that card early. ;)
the remaining question is, for wich side?
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Remember that much of the Jet Technology was decended from LW R&D technology.
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Originally posted by brendo
Remember that much of the Jet Technology was decended from LW R&D technology.
The P-80 & Meteor were both in active service prior to the end of the war...I doubt either was based on LW technology. From what I've read the Mig 15 was the 1st jet the "allies" built which was partially based on LW research.
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Republic
XP-47J Thunderbolt (P)
1943 6 .50cal MG 1-seat
1 radial 2,800hp 507mph
I want.....
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Yakolev
Yak-3M-103/-P/-T
1943 1 20mm cannon, 2 12.7mm MG
(-3P)3 20mm cannon
(-3T)1 37mm and 2 20mm 1-seat
1 inline 1,650hp 477mph
I Reeaaallllly want....
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Lavochkin
La-126 (P)
1944? 2 20mm cannon 1-seat/ 1 radial 1,650hp
(-126PVRD adds)2 660lb ramjets 497mph
yowser...talk about a dweeb ride
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Supermarine
Spiteful
1944 4 20mm cannon 1-seat
1 inline 2,375hp 483mph
hmmmmmm....maybe for christmas
Mark XVI - The two conversions from the Mark XIV, RB516 and RB518 were fitted with the Griffon 101 engine producing 2,420 hp and a top speed of 494 mph.
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one last one....
McDonnell
FH (FD) Phantom
1945 4 .50cal MG 1-seat carrier fighter
2 1,600lb turbojets 580mph
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Don't forget the XP-72 (the project that the XP-47J was abandoned for). This is easily the most powerful single engined fighter of the era.
Republic
XP-72J Thunderbolt (P)
1945 6, (8?) .50cal MG 1-seat
1 radial 3,450hp (same model engine eventually achieves over 4,300 HP in later revisions)
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WHo cares, if that happened Germany would win the war.
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Originally posted by udet
WHo cares, if that happened Germany would win the war.
Heh ... glad I wasn't drinking anything when I read that. :D
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De Havilland Hornet :
Crew/Passengers: one pilot
Power Plant: two 2,030 hp Rolls-Royce Merlin 133/134 engines
Performance: Max Speed: 488 mph (780 km/h)
Service Ceiling:37,500 ft (11,430 m) Range: 2,500 mi (4,022 km)
Weights: Gross: 16,100 lb (7,303 kg)
Dimensions: Span: 45 ft 0 in (13.71 m) Length: 36 ft 8 in (11.17 m)
Height: 14 ft 2 in (4.32 m) Wing Area: 222 sq ft (20.62 sq m)
Armament: four 20 mm cannon and provisions for 2,000 lb (907 kg) of bombs
(http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/spit14climbchart.jpg)
(http://www.georgiacombat.com/dh103-i.jpg)
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"the remaining question is, for wich side?"
Depends, how much of a fantasy do you want to make this?Germany was no where near the a-bomb and neither was Japan, regardless of the outlandish "proofs" some webhosts try to pwan off.
I guess you could say if Einstein didn't, if Oppenheimer hadn't and if Heisengerg was successful then.... Always if,if,if! Well in 1774 if King George had... if Custer hadn't... Ceasar should have... Napoleon could have.... and damn if only Eve wasn't... :)
It would take going back in time to over the many years of WWII and before to reverse the many bad (good for the free world!) decisions, changing or eliminating many milestones and erasing certain cirumstances to have WWII end up a stalemate or even a "lose" for the Allies.
:)
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westy's remark about manufacturing ability is spot on. been reading shillers "the rise & fall of the 3rd reich," never before had i realized how hopless germany's position. what a tragic waste. japan too for that matter. they envisioned a 10 month campaign hopin' to snag raw material from the dutch indies.
on another note, all my life i've heard luftwaffe this & that how great they were. against whom???? spain, ethopia (yes i know it was the italiens), poland & other countries who where hopelessly out numbered like the scandinavian's & low countries, & france?
battle of britain was, as far a i know, their first real test. they failed.
1 last comment about france. what a bunch of bananas. gosh they've not changed a whit in 70 yrs either. for those who've not read "rise & fall" don't let the length daunt you. it's an incredible read. i'm about 1/2 done.
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F8f is a 1945 plane.
lazs
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Does the hornet have anything in common with the mosquito?
They look very similar.
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Germany could have won the Battle of Britain, it's just that they screwed up. They almost had the RAF grounded, but they stopped bombing the airfields and started bombing the cities. If they stuck to thier first targets, they would have had more of a chance to win the Battle of Britain.
At least I think this is what happened. If I'm wrong, correct me.
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Originally posted by Weavling
Germany could have won the Battle of Britain, it's just that they screwed up. They almost had the RAF grounded, but they stopped bombing the airfields and started bombing the cities. If they stuck to thier first targets, they would have had more of a chance to win the Battle of Britain.
At least I think this is what happened. If I'm wrong, correct me.
Actually, this would make for the most interesting 'what-if' scenario for WWII. You can blame it on a single accident, compounded by Hitler's arrogance.
On August 25, 1940, a single He-111 bomber got lost on a night mission and dropped their bombs on central London, rather than their assigned target, in spite of specific orders not to do so. Churchill ordered a retaliatory strike on Berlin, sending 81 RAF Hampden bombers to Berlin the next night. This bent Hitler so far out of shape that he immediately gave a radio address, promising, "If the British bomb our cities, we will bury theirs" and, against the advice of his generals, issued orders to institute a merciless bombing campaign against London.
The relief from the bombing allowed the factories and RAF airfields to recover; had the strikes against the factories and RAF continued, it was entirely possible that the RAF could have been eliminated as a threat -- up to the point when the Blitz started, the Germans had been winning the war of attrition. Faced with the massive losses in aircraft and the loss of air superiority, Hitler cancelled Operation Sea Lion on October 12, 1940.
Had the redirection of the Luftwaffe offensive not taken place, German aircraft production could have been increased and the auxiliary fuel tanks developed during the Spanish Civil War could have been put into production, which would have given the Luftwaffe more freedom to operate over England. With air superiority, Operation Sea Lion would have taken place and England would have had to fight a ground war on her own soil. And for all the mistakes that Germany made regarding the development of the Luftwaffe as a strategic air force, their ground forces were clearly superior on a man-for-man basis.
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Originally posted by Weavling
Germany could have won the Battle of Britain, it's just that they screwed up. They almost had the RAF grounded, but they stopped bombing the airfields and started bombing the cities. If they stuck to thier first targets, they would have had more of a chance to win the Battle of Britain.
At least I think this is what happened. If I'm wrong, correct me.
Would the german army have been able to get across the channel anyway? They were planning on using river barges to get across a notoriusly unpredictable sea.
And Yes the DeHavilland Hornet was pretty much a single seat smaller more streamlined mossie.
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Originally posted by Shiva
Actually, this would make for the most interesting 'what-if' scenario for WWII. You can blame it on a single accident, compounded by Hitler's arrogance.
On August 25, 1940, a single He-111 bomber got lost on a night mission and dropped their bombs on central London, rather than their assigned target, in spite of specific orders not to do so. Churchill ordered a retaliatory strike on Berlin, sending 81 RAF Hampden bombers to Berlin the next night. This bent Hitler so far out of shape that he immediately gave a radio address, promising, "If the British bomb our cities, we will bury theirs" and, against the advice of his generals, issued orders to institute a merciless bombing campaign against London.
The relief from the bombing allowed the factories and RAF airfields to recover; had the strikes against the factories and RAF continued, it was entirely possible that the RAF could have been eliminated as a threat -- up to the point when the Blitz started, the Germans had been winning the war of attrition. Faced with the massive losses in aircraft and the loss of air superiority, Hitler cancelled Operation Sea Lion on October 12, 1940.
Had the redirection of the Luftwaffe offensive not taken place, German aircraft production could have been increased and the auxiliary fuel tanks developed during the Spanish Civil War could have been put into production, which would have given the Luftwaffe more freedom to operate over England. With air superiority, Operation Sea Lion would have taken place and England would have had to fight a ground war on her own soil. And for all the mistakes that Germany made regarding the development of the Luftwaffe as a strategic air force, their ground forces were clearly superior on a man-for-man basis.
,,,,And Goering changed his name to Meier;) .
What if the Germans actually succeded in taking Moscow in '41,instead of getting stuck just outside due to winter?. Just to throw in another if.
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How about the F7F Tigercat?
http://www.fighter-collection.com/tigercat/ (http://www.fighter-collection.com/tigercat/)
Since we have the Ta152, maybe we can have it for AH also :)
Max 460 mph. 4 x 20mm and 4 x .50 cal.
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Hmm how about the Do. 335?
http://www.squadron13.com/do335/DO335.htm (http://www.squadron13.com/do335/DO335.htm)
Also to continue on the note about Moscow. The actual reason the failure to take Russia was not just the weather, but Italy. Italy's failed attempt to take Greece, against Hitler's request, forced a good number of German forces from starting Barbarossa on time to help bailout Italy , therfore delaying the operation by as much as 3 months. German forces were within 12 miles of outlying Moscow when they finally bogged down. One might wonder had the attack begun 3 months earlier like it was supposed to, would Moscow and then eventually Russia have fallen?
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Originally posted by JB42
Hmm how about the Do. 335?
I've been hoping for a combat sim with a good model of the Do-335 for years; SWotL had a number of bizarre holes in the flight model.
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Originally posted by Weavling
Germany could have won the Battle of Britain, it's just that they screwed up. They almost had the RAF grounded, but they stopped bombing the airfields and started bombing the cities. If they stuck to thier first targets, they would have had more of a chance to win the Battle of Britain.
At least I think this is what happened. If I'm wrong, correct me.
weavling, sounds like you too are intererested in the operations of ww2; it's not they "would have had more of a chance" they had no chance because of a lack of raw materials. ck out shiller's book from the library. it's an easy read mainly because he's a journalist & not a prof. also, after ww2, tons of german archival material was found upon which he based his book.