Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: StSanta on August 08, 2000, 06:06:00 AM
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At the time I am writing this, 20238 planes have been shot down in Tour 7. Some, like the Spitfire and FporkU's and 190A5's are quite popular, while others see little action.
Since I am bored and there still is an hour to tennis practise; some statistics.
The P-51D has 1142 kills and has been killed 1008 times. K/D: 1.14. Awright, not bad, positive k/d ratio.
The Bf 109G-10 has 1201 kills and has been killed 962 times. K/D: 1.25. Even better.
The Spitfire Mk IX has 2136 kills and has been killed 2059 times. K/D: 1.04. A bit surprising considering how many newbies fly it. Very popular aircraft.
The B-17G has 747 kills and has been killed 1100 times. K/D: 0.68. A bit surprised to see this, as I usually get at least one fighter if attacked. Maybe ackstarring has had an effect (or rather, vulching otr ackstars)
The P-47D-30 has 1464 kills and has been killed 1253 times. K/D: 1.167. New plane, but has quickly become a favourite amongst many.
The M-3 has 150 kills and has been killed 245 times. K/D: 0.61. Surprisingly good, maybe thanks to ack kills.
The A6M5b has 452 kills and has been killed 729 times. K/D: 0.62. Can flip on a dime, but seems most are put off by its lack of speed.
The Yak-9U has 285 kills and has been killed 314 times. K/D: 0.91. Very few fly this aircraft, and I am a bit surprised why. It's a great all around aircraft, if with a limited ammo load.
The Fw 190A-5 has 2057 kills and has been killed 1323 times. K/D: 1.54. Wow, very popular plane, and great k/d ratio. But get it slow, and you will kill it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
The Panzer IV has 1572 kills and has been killed 1198 times. K/D ratio: 1.31. Tankers unite (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
The Typhoon IB has 195 kills and has been killed 178 times. K/D: 1.1. Too bad we see few of these out there; like the A8, she is deadly in the hands of the dedicated pilot
The M-16 has 978 kills and has been killed 979 times. K/D: almost 1.0. An eye for an eye, baby.
The C.202 has 37 kills and has been killed 76 times. K/D: 0.49. Obsolete and hardly ever used.
The P-38L has 1079 kills and has been killed 1517 times. K/D: 0.71. Flown right, 40 kill streaks is the result. Flown wrong, a big fat juicy target.
The Spitfire Mk V has 318 kills and has been killed 504 times. K/D: 0.63. Syuffers from the Zeke problem.
The F4U-1C has 2306 kills and has been killed 1357 times. K/D: an astonishing 1.7. Compare this to the D and then say Hispanos aren't the difference, and I will slap you (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
The Bf 109G-6 has 159 kills and has been killed 212 times. K/D: 0.75. This plane has IMHO the worst traits of the G10 and the G2 put together, with none of eithers virtues. Others disagree with me, naturally.
The Bf 109G-2 has 87 kills and has been killed 93 times. K/D: 0.93. Don't count out the G2; it's quite a capable aircraft, but one of the least popular.
The Bf 109F-4 has 92 kills and has been killed 165 times. K/D: 0.55. Old old plane, but in some pilots hands it sings (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif). Unpopular.
The B-26B has 582 kills and has been killed 781 times. K/D: 0.75. Lack of enough defensive guns is probably the main cause. That and vulches on ackstars.
The F4U-1D has 157 kills and has been killed 285 times. K/D: 0.55. Now isn't this just interesting? Compare it to the C, which has 1.7. The difference is quite noticeable and cannot be explained by merely superior flight characteristics; the difference is not that great. Anyone still doubting why the C is called One Ping Wonder?
The C.205 has 463 kills and has been killed 460 times. K/D: 1.01. Has a small and loyal following.
The Fw 190A-8 has 398 kills and has been killed 451 times. K/D: 0.88. Flown properly, quite deadly. Great for jabo too.
The N1K2 has 1505 kills and has been killed 1471 times. K/D: 1.02. Fairly well balanced
The La-5FN has 138 kills and has been killed 177 times. K/D: 0.78. It has been many days since I last saw an LA-5.
The C-47A has 56 kills and has been killed 462 times. K/D: 0.12. Defenseless little bird.
So, what do the stats tell us?
The new 190A5 has quickly gained momentum, alongside the P-47. Both are doing well.
Am a bit surprised about the A5's high k/d ratio.
The A6M, Yak, Typhoon, c202, 109F4, G2, G6 and F4UD are rarely seen and do not do well in terms of score. Late monster aircraft fare better.
The cannons are the main difference between succces and failure amongst F4UC dweebs; without the capability to get One Ping Kills, they scatter and die with great ease. Sobbing, they run back to their cannon armed abberation to get mommy to help out.
Well, bring yer diapers, boys, coz that 109 you will meet will be me (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif).
<S!> (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime
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I was just wondering about the mysterious disapearance of the La5, I'm actually surprised the p-38 hasn't become as rare as the La5 with the addition of compressibility and the fact that most new planes being faster at the med/low altitudes. but as you know the Lightning has some real die hard fans so it will get flown even if its the worst plane in the set (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
perhaps its time to add the La7 and P-38F? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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The Yak-9U has 285 kills and has been killed 314 times. K/D: 0.91. Very few fly this aircraft, and I am a bit surprised why. It's a great all around aircraft, if with a limited ammo load
Its a nice performing aircraft but its anemic guns and miniscule ammo load require that you follow the enemy down to the deck, putting burst after burst into them at close range. Which means you are vulched shortly thereafter, by five stratospheric P-38 and 109 pilots. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) j/k of course, but its based in truth. There are about 5 people that regularly fly the Yak (if that many, most try it for a couple of sorties and give up).
Now compare it to the G10 which flys very similarly.
The Bf 109G-10 has 1201 kills and has been killed 962 times. K/D: 1.25. Even better
The difference? The big gun 30mm and the ability to carry 20mm gondolas. I am personally quite pleased with x3 20mm's in the G10 and their snapshot capabilities.
Oh wait... your a Luftwobble, I'm sorry. Its just the better Luftwaffe player pilot quality (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
If Pyro comes thru with the Yak-9UT armament options, then you might see me more back in the Yak. But for now... I will stay with the G10 experiment this tour.
Actually, I decided to try out the G10 again this tour, since I hadn't flown one since mid-beta.
And guess what??
You may not believe me, but its handling qualities have improved significantly. Its much more docile now than it use to be, and much easier to fly.
In fact, I would classify the G10 and the Yak to have very similar trim/torque effects now.
Just thought I would chime in and give you a little hell, since I knew you were a 109 pilot (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 08-08-2000).]
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Them Russian birds are nasty low, but yes anemic guns, and everyone looking down to vultch something on the deck decreases their life expectancy.
I fly the P-47D-30 Almost exclussively now, I admit I am fond of the plane, but am puzzeled by its apparent lack of performance at altitude? I almost got into a fight with a 1C at 25+ K last night and we both couldn't turn with each other till we got to thick air. By then we each had new fights and too much separation?
Could the P-47D-30 Not Turn above 25K? Everything I read says it could? When I fly that high in AH it stalls in turns and falls! Falls! Faalls! and spins that take 7 or 8K to get out of!
I am not happy about High Alt performance, NO SIR!
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(http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1/dtahcard.gif)
"Downtown" Lincoln Brown.
lkbrown1@tir.com
http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1 (http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1)
Wrecking Crews "Drag and Die Guy"
Hals und beinbruch!
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At least i'm not the cause for the way negative exchange ratio on my beloved D .. i'm still in the positive even tho the bad slump i have (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
47:11
H O G
[This message has been edited by Duckwing6 (edited 08-08-2000).]
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30mm is worthless against players living far from the server... countless times I've loaded tons of 30mm into B26s and 17s at 150-250 and nothing happened except maybe engine oil leak and its usually a Japanese pilot in the buff... so... 30mm is useless apart from 1v1 and it takes alot of skill and patience to use effectively.
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Nath, I have seen many 109 pilots that will argue that with you.
Even still, just take the x3 20mm's + x2 13mm MG's. Its a very effective loadout.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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That p38 could be much much better
as long as it has E and altitude.
at 2 or 3 miles i make a big loop or go straight up most plane don't climb like it.
what's left mostly is a slow target fighting his stalls. Ready to get shot.
The 38 is a great plane. no doubt about it.
the most problem i have is with n1k and the fast 109's they also climb better (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) and n1k turns like a spit too . it's a nasty one
but being opportunistic in H2H i mostly get a 3-5 score record is 10 .
u also have too lookout for those incoming and decide the right moment to get away and come back higher with more speed.
Spitfires and zero's don't have much chance against the 38 just booom and zoom them (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I hope i get a creditcard soon. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
because i don't like sending money in a envelope
AH rules
S! mates
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Downtown I'm a bit perplexed as to your experience with the Jug at 25K. I DROOL when I see enemy counters while in a P-47-D30 at that alt because nothing can touch me in speed or verticle maneuvers. I may be the last one take advice from but try not turning and instead roll into your victim. Or use your superior speed to do a hi yo-yo on them or even a chandelle. Most aircraft start wallowing like a pig at 25k or higher and this is where the Jug really starts becomes a super star.
Coalt with bogies at 5 to 10K and I get nervous. But coalt at 25K and I'm eager for the fight (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-Westy
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Gondolas have too large an impact on performance, if I was just hunting buffs all day sure I'd take gondolas but if I run into a 51 I can't even catch it on the deck.
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Lets see, the G10 can outclimb, out run, and out turn a Chog, yet, the Chog has a better K/D ratio...that tells me alot about the pilots in a Chog! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
(So much for Hristos "LW Superior" theory!)
<G,D,R>
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 08-08-2000).]
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I am the person responsible for the low K/D of the D Hog, me & myself only ! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Duck Brings it up, I bring it down (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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SAW/Saintaw
Click here for VMF-323 Death Rattlers info (http://Ripsnort60.tripod.com/vmf323inquirer.html)
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/saw323.jpg)
"It's supposed to be hard; that's what makes it great!"
Tom Hanks, A League of Their Own
.squelch creamo
[This message has been edited by Saintaw (edited 08-08-2000).]
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I't not Hog it's friggin HAWG (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) friggin newbies (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
atta boy nath japanese sounds alot better than Japs. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Westy,
ever fight a p38 in a jug at 25k? ain't easy (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Verm:
I find the Yak to roll better, have much less need for input, handle better in climb, equally at low speeds.
Regarding the guns; gondolas give too much drag and performance degradation for me; I never fly with them. The YAK has 340 rounds of cannon ammo; the G10 standard 150.
In terms of firing time, I've clocked the following:
YAK
Out of cannon: 9.11 seconds
Out of mg: 11.02 seconds
109G10
Out of cannon: 12.69 seconds
Out of mg: 21.71
Now, the YAK has a higher ROF and two 20mm. This, to me, shows that the YAK armament is superior to the 109's. Mg's on the 109 last longer, but are nearly useless. I rtb when out of cannon, and use only mg in acts of self defense. Usually, it takes the whole remaining amount to down just one fighter.
So two guns vs 1, more than twice the ammo load, higher ROF, and about the same range (i.e need to move within 350-300 yards to get kill).
If I was not a Luftwaffe Knight, I'd fly the YAK (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
I do not think it has anemic armament (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Well, it *is* anemic compared to the following:
P51, max guns:
Outboard mg's out: 21 seconds
Inboard mg's out: 30.23 seconds
Spit 9:
Cannons out: 21 seconds
mg's out: 18.5 seconds
F4U-C:
Cannons out: *21.57* seconds
P-47D-25, max guns and ammo:
Mg's out: *32.09*
Of course, there are many things to consider; lethality, ROF, muzzle velocity, number of guns, but this clocking give ya a good idea.
The difference? The big gun 30mm and the ability to carry 20mm gondolas. I am personally quite pleased with x3 20mm's in the G10 and their snapshot capabilities.
Heh, I enjoy discussing things with you Verm; you really know your stuff. I am also happy to disagree with you at any given time and place (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
30mm; too slow for fast moving and maneuvering fighters; meet a good stick and it is very hard to get a kill.
Gondolas: as I've mentioned, too great a penalty flight wise. Again, meet a good stick and you will die. I always fly as if I will meet a good stick. Mostly because citabria takes great pleasure in searching for me (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
So, the difference between a G10 standard and a YAK-9 in terms of gun actually work out in favour of the YAK.
I am pleased with the G10 snapshot ability too, mostly because I get *very close* before I open up.
Your mileage may vary.
You may not believe me, but its handling qualities have improved significantly. Its much more docile now than it use to be, and much easier to fly.
Or you've become better at it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
It accelerates a good deal slower, and all of it cannot (in the way I understand prop drag) be attributed to prop drag. After vertical input, it has a tendency to slip down and to the left, which it didn't have before. Other than that, I still LOVE my G10 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Heh, always fun discussing with ya Verm; I still remember exploding in yer face, only for it to have the same effect as pissing in your pants has; it feels warm and good at first, but soon it is cold and stinks.
Ripsnort, you allied opportunist dweeb:
Lets see, the G10 can outclimb, out run, and out turn a Chog, yet, the Chog has a better K/D ratio...that tells me alot about the pilots in a Chog! (So much for Hristos "LW Superior" theory!)
The Bf 109G-10 has 89 kills and has been killed 81 times against the F4U-1C.
Heh, the c hog is a vulchers dream; one ping HO monster. See the post I am about to make about HO's for my opinion on it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif). It takes little skill to kill with this aircraft.
You forget to mention that the F4-C outguns, outdives, has better hi speed handling than, outrolls, has better endurance than the 109G10. A skilled F4u-C pilot *should* be able to out scissor a 109G10, or lose him in a dive with maneuvers. And then, of course, go for the HO, which any intelligent 109 pilot avoids like the plague; 109 guns are simply too inferior to head on anything but a blind deer with a malfunctioning shotgun.
LW pilots are superior to allied opportunist dweebs (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Long post, again. Getting to be a habit (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime
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Originally posted by Torque:
I't not Hog it's friggin HAWG (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) friggin newbies (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
atta boy nath japanese sounds alot better than Japs. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Santa, fly one for 1 tour, bet you $10 you don't get a 5 to 1 K/D ratio. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
NO Torque, for backwater boys like you its HAWG... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
(http://Ripsnort60.tripod.com/porktheone.jpg)
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 08-08-2000).]
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Nah, i have decided its NOT allied pilots that r inferior, its PONY pilots (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) P38 and F4u and and p47 pilots cannot always run from everything, so they aren't quite as opportunistic (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)Plus, people make fun oif spit dweebs but i think it must take much frustration to always having people run away, so <S>
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While I'm not surprised by the results, I wish more people would give some of the lesser utilized planes a chance:
La5fn- Nice little bird, with good cannons(and ammo!). Just don't do anything in the horizontal with it.
C205- Underestimate this plane, or the pilot in it, and you will find yourself hitting the silk. Fast, with good manueverability, the 205 may be AH's best kept secret.
Typhoon- Ah, my bird of choice. Good ol' Tiffy has four Hispanos, very good low level speed, and is a tempestuous beast. Only real men fly the Typhoon in AH's dangerous skies. The only plane I know of that is as hard to take off and land in, as it is to fight in.
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c.202
give us the real 12.7mm and i promise a K/D of 1.5 for that bird on next tour (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/cool.gif)
ok ok ok, at least a K/D of 0.85 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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"LW pilots are superior to allied opportunist dweebs"
opportunism is all u need to become a ace
without dieing offcourse (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
bravery lays on the graveyard (turnfights)
and better chicken than death (runaway)
i guess surviving was the main goal off all fighterpilot's
the one who survived gained experience.
i saw once 5 percent made 95 percent off the kills in WO II.
So what did the other 95 percent do?
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Well, what happens when we focus on Air-to-Air kills?
Here's a view of the F4U-1C vs the FW190-A5 when you remove ground vehicles and the denfenseless C-47 (simply a big, slow target) from the Tour 7 stats.
F4U-1C
Totals 2316 Kills, 1359 Killed
then subtract ground vehicles and the defenseless flying target...
against M3 36/3
against Panzer 209/123
against M16 226/102
against C47 51/6
Totals 1794 Kills 1125 Killed
k/D is 1.59
Now the FW190-A5
Totals 2093 Kills 1336 Killed
against M3 23/13
against Panzer 13/35
against M16 103/58
against C47 34/2
Totals 1930 Kills 1228 Killed
K/D is 1.57
in an Air-to-Air engagement, the F4U-1C is clearly no more "Uber" than the FW-190-A5.
Now I'm of the opinion that if we are going to compare aircraft as FIGHTERS then we ought to subtract the M3, M16, Panzer and C-47 kills and then run the stats.
If you want to examine the ground attack capabilities, use just the M3, M16 & Panzer kills.
I wouldn't ever include the C-47, unless maybe it was in the "vs Target Drone" stats!
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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AMEN TOAD!!!
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Nath11 has 51 kills and has been killed 5 times in the Fw 190A-5.
Nath11 has 39 kills and has been killed 8 times in the Bf 109G-10. (2 deaths from ineffective 30mm against buffs)
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Geschwaderkommodore JG 54
"Grünherz"
(http://www.mindspring.com/~nathownsj00/JG54Sig.jpg)
[This message has been edited by Nath-BDP (edited 08-08-2000).]
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In regards to me flying the G10
Or you've become better at it
Possible, but I honestly don't think so. Usually I have a pretty good feel for the handling of the different aircraft, and Its my feeling that somewhere since the beta the G10 has gotten a "tune up".
As to G10 performance (And this one makes me laugh (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) )
Regarding the guns; gondolas give too much drag and performance degradation for me; I never fly with them
Heheh degradation in regards to what? Even with Gondola's, the G10 climbs faster than a Pony, accelerates faster than a Pony, and is at least as fast (I think its faster, but I would have to test it to be sure). Plus it has about 65% more total firepower, and much better snapshot capability (the nature of cannons vs. MG's). So your still outperforming just about every aircraft in the inventory in the most important categories, and you have more firepower too boot. The only major category thats significantly degraded is in roll rate, that I will agree with you. But I can live with that.
On the Yak Armament
Now, the YAK has a higher ROF and two 20mm
Umm.... No. The Yak-9U has the exact same armament setup as the standard 109. A single 20mm cannon that fires thru the hub, and is located inside the V of the engine. Plus, two nose mounted (above the engine) heavy MG's (12.7mm vs 13mm).
And I believe you have the MG and Cannon ammunition capacities switched in your example. I think the Yak's 20mm ammunition amount is pretty close to the G10's.
And the difference between the 20mm MG151/20 and the 20mm ShVak is essentially negilible. Both guns even have the same installation weight of 42kg. The important statistics of the two guns.
MG 151/20 20mm x 82 ( 92 g) 740 rpm 800 m/s
ShVAK 20mm x 99R ( 96 g) 800 rpm 860 m/s
So, the difference between a G10 standard and a YAK-9 in terms of gun actually work out in favour of the YAK.
So the difference between the basic armament loads of the two aircraft is *nothing*, or its so small as to have to no true effect on gameplay.
The real difference is that the 109 series has the option of the Mk108 30mm (even if some pilots don't like it), and the ability to carry gondola's.
Just having the option makes a big difference (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Heh, I enjoy discussing things with you Verm; you really know your stuff
I aim to please (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 08-08-2000).]
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Zig, you think that it's bad to not be able to chase in a Spit... you should try the not being able to run, that's worse. I can't tell you how many times I've tried to run only to find myself caught by 3 or 4 cons and had to scrap it out until the death.
That's why I liked when the Zero arrived, finally something a Spit can run from.
Soda
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Wow! Just imagine how well the A5 would of done if I didn't fly it!!!
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Originally posted by Toad:
in an Air-to-Air engagement, the F4U-1C is clearly no more "Uber" than the FW-190-A5.
I'm going to disagree with you in this,toad, and I know this may make some people mad at me (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) at least a bit like people is at hristo in this matter...
the bulk of people flying Fw190A5 is ex-Fw190A8 fliers. Remember the impressive K/D score for the A8? was always over 1, and close to 1.2K/D each tour. Impressive for the heaviest worse turning SOB in this planeset...
look at the A8 stats this tour. It is clear that MANY people (imcluding me) jumped from A8 to A5...and to be a outstanding A8 driver means you are one of the finest sticks in this sim (ask Udie ,or Weazel, or Hristo, or Berserkr...) because it really requires a lot of "touch" to fly it well.
Flying A5 like A8 you are going to raise a way bigger K/D in it than you believe. Its better acceleration and climbing makes it a better plane but the bassic advantages (rollrate,weapons, dive and zoom) are the same...plus you can win those last angles that you couldnt do in A8. If you dont start getting greedy the survivability in this plane is great...thats why the K/D is so impressive...thats why A5 shines bright.
So this is a case of the pilot,not the plane...in F4U1C there are a lot of damned good sticks (Torque the best hands down), but there are a lot of people who only know to come from 10K avobe you, do a diving HO and hope for the 4 hispanos to do a one-ping death...there is a good example of this guy ,one who uses to raise 3-4 kills each sortie, one that AFAIK never shot me down in anything but a HO. I wont say his name because he knows who he is, and dont want to start a personal thing here...
But while many hawg C drivers are real magicians of the sky there are some suckers who only know to spray ,pray, hit 2 pings kill a con and run to home if there is any con less than 2K under him. You wont find many examples of this between A5 drivers.
and dont look my stats,I'm not one of those "best sticks",not by far...I suck in all planes (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
<Flame suit on (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)>
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 08-08-2000).]
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Well, im gonna disagree with RAM, i think the c hog is pretty damned fair as is. I flew it a bit today, and yes, i made awesome snapshots, but in a close fight i think the 190a5 has the edge. 1on1, co-alt the 190 will win every time.
I think in A2A engagements, the c hog is fine as-is.
A2g is another matter.
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Originally posted by RAM:
...and to be a outstanding A8 driver means you are one of the finest sticks in this sim (ask Udie ,or Weazel, or Hristo, or Berserkr...) because it really requires a lot of "touch" to fly it well.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 08-08-2000).]
No good words for your CO that helped ya in the 190 !?!
Tour 1 thru Tour 5 190A8 K/D Ratio:
Berzerkr: 1.34
Ram- 1.66
Weazel- 2.26
Udie- 2.37
Ripsnort-4.2 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Hristos- 7.2
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 08-08-2000).]
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Oh other thing is versus buffs, i think the f4u is a tad strong. but in fighter to fighter it is a fair airplane unless u are on the deck and cannot avoid headons.
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Well I've been flying the Yak a fair amount lately. Love its speed and climb, great for either angles or E fighting.
Trick to me is to make your first shot count.
Some guys get VERY close, I prefer to open up around 300 but make darn sure something breaks when I do.
Would also love to see some of the loadout variables this bird & it's variants had. It would really add to it's popularity I think.
Besides, it would be a sweet little tank hunter with a big gun in it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
As to the 190A5, well nothing bad to say about it here. It and the P47 have pretty well balanced out the F4U-C. (Thank you HTC)
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Even though my K/D and gunnery are way down(Trying some new stuff out)
I'd have to agree that the 109g10 with a 30mm is still my prefered dueling fighter of choice...
1/1 i dont think that 109g10 can be beaten by another type of aircraft(Equal pilot level)
nothing can touch the g10's pure abiltiy to out manuever a enemy through engine power
10 mins WEP
4k/min + climb (sick)
That is really a energy pilots dream with a crazy rudder that when coupled with throttle management can out radii any other plane using YoYo's and e bleeding nose overs
Just my 2 cents....
Regards,
DoctorYO
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Originally posted by Ripsnort:
No good words for your CO that helped ya in the 190 !?!
Tour 1 thru Tour 5 190A8 K/D Ratio:
Berzerkr: 1.34
Ram- 1.66
Weazel- 2.26
Udie- 2.37
Ripsnort-4.2 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Hristos- 7.2
LOL Rip (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I meant dedicated Fw190A8 pilots, and we all know you did ride that blue chicken-of-the-sea a lot of times,not to mention that Captured La5 that you loved so much (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Also all the ones I mentioned are using or have used extensively A5...I only see you in Hogs (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Thats why I kept you out of the list but you know what do I think about your skills like pilot (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Said that, 1.66K/D in A8 in Tour5...<sigh> I suck (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 08-08-2000).]
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hi all:
well just tell me what plane you want the stats destoyed on, i'll start flying it and in no time at all, it will have lousy stat's,
i can die better and faster then any of you.
wolf37
C.O.
THUNDER BIRDS
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Am I the only one who finds it amusing that when the 109G10 and 190A5 benefit from using the "big guns" it is portrayed very positively ("popular plane, great k/d")... and when the subject of the F4U-1C comes up, all I hear is whining, squeaking, and moaning?
Doesn't matter what game you're talking about, Luftwobbles never change.
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
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<Sits down with a bowl of peanuts and a six-pack> This oughtta be a good one. Wonder where Juve is when ya need him?
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P/O banana
XO 308(Polish) Sqn "City of Cracow" RAF
"Look at me when I HO you!"
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Please, stop the insanity!
Rude
[This message has been edited by Rude (edited 08-08-2000).]
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Originally posted by wolf37:
well just tell me what plane you want the stats destoyed on, i'll start flying it and in no time at all, it will have lousy stat's,
i can die better and faster then any of you.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) I surely am partly responsible for the Yak-9U's poor score. I've been flying it as my main ride for weeks, but I'm afraid this poor pilot doesn't deserve this great mount.
It's a sweet plane, but my main beef with it is not its weak armament, but its small fuel capacity.
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DrSoya
308 (Polish) Squadron "City of Cracow" RAF [AH]
303 (Polish) Squadron "Kosciuszko" RAF [WB]
Part of the Northolt Wing (http://www.raf303.org/northolt) (First Polish Fighter Wing)
[This message has been edited by DrSoya (edited 08-08-2000).]
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Originally posted by banana:
<Sits down with a bowl of peanuts and a six-pack> This oughtta be a good one. Wonder where Juve is when ya need him?
<Sets down next to banana, hands him a can of "OFF", grabs the package of Brauts...>
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Verm (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
As to G10 performance (And this one makes me laugh )
quote:
Regarding the guns; gondolas give too much drag and performance degradation for me; I never fly with them
end quote
Heheh degradation in regards to what? Even with Gondola's, the G10 climbs faster than a Pony, accelerates faster than a Pony, and is at least as fast (I think its faster, but I would have to test it to be sure). Plus it has about 65% more total firepower, and much better snapshot capability (the nature of cannons vs. MG's). So your still outperforming just about every aircraft in the inventory in the most important categories, and you have more firepower too boot. The only major category thats significantly degraded is in roll rate, that I will agree with you. But I can live with that.
Hm, here I must disagree with you; turning ability is affected; you lose a good bit of more speed in scissors; acceleration goes down. Climb rate drops some too.
The 51 is faster at altitude, but at the deck a light 109 can catch a P51, although not by much. Enough to run away from a co alt co e P51 though (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif). With regards to armament; not sure how much the 109 can deliver per second, and how much the 51 does. However, the 51 has laser beam .50's. Compared to the 109, very little lead is needed. Also very many rounds in the air make chances of hits quite likely.
I never survive a good bounce by a P51. The snapshot ability seems more than adequate; especially as they can open up at almost twice the range and still expect to hit.
The 109 lives and survives on three things; climb, acceleration and flat out speed. All the rest of the characteristics are rather poor, with the exception of rather nice low speed handling and stalls (IMHO).
I fight aggressively. When I have to extend, the enemy is usually d3-400 my 6 and either closing or holding about the same speed. I've found that with gondolas, I am unable to do vertical or horisontal scissors effectively. Furthermore, the degradation of acceleration *and especially top speed*, makes it harder t get away alive.
Ponies can catch you flat out if you have gondies.
I gather we fly the G10 somewhat differently. Preserve my e if there are higher enemy cons at d4-5, but other than that I rely on dives and acceleration to get speed back after hi g yo yo's.
Umm.... No. The Yak-9U has the exact same armament setup as the standard 109. A single 20mm cannon that fires thru the hub, and is located inside the V of the engine. Plus, two nose mounted (above the engine) heavy MG's
(12.7mm vs 13mm).
And I believe you have the MG and Cannon ammunition capacities switched in your example. I think the Yak's 20mm ammunition amount is pretty close to the G10's.
Eeek, you are correct; it actually has a little less cannon rounds; 120. Sorry about that mistake. The YAK has less ammo than the G10, but not by much. It shouldn't be enough to drive off dedicated YAK drivers, just as the 150 round capacity of the G10 hasn't driven me off.
And the difference between the 20mm MG151/20 and the 20mm ShVak is essentially negilible. Both guns even have the same installation weight of 42kg. The important statistics of the two guns.
MG 151/20 20mm x 82 ( 92 g) 740 rpm 800 m/s
ShVAK 20mm x 99R ( 96 g) 800 rpm 860 m/s
YAK gun is superior (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif). Not by much, but at least I was right about this. Phew. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
The real difference is that the 109 series has the option of the Mk108 30mm (even if some pilots don't like it), and the ability to carry gondola's.
I'll buy it, if you buy my argument about 30mm being ineffective against good sticks. However, it doesn't apply to me, who never carry 30mm or gondolas (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif). Most do not carry gondolas as far as I know, so I do not believe the difference is purely attributed to guns.
Just having the option makes a big difference
Not if you ain't using it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
I aim to please
LOL (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime
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Am I the only one who finds it amusing that when the 109G10 and 190A5 benefit from using the "big guns" it is portrayed very positively ("popular plane, great k/d")... and when the subject of the F4U-1C comes up, all I hear is whining, squeaking, and moaning?
Doesn't matter what game you're talking about, Luftwobbles never change.
Hm, well I thought about editing in my views on the A5 as the new dweeb plane, but decided against it. Maybe this was wrong; to my dismay there are millions of 190s up in the air now, and very few of them are A8's. This far for me: A5 kd: 2 kills, 1 death. A8: 21 kills, 3 deaths. I flew it extensively in tour 6 (62 kills, 8 deaths) and it is a very capable plane. As is the F4U, any variant.
It's just the gun package of the C that bugs me, and the way many people use it. That combined with the huge difference in k/d between the two f4u models sparked my negative comments about them.
The A5 sucks above around 18k. The F4U has an advantage here. Also, hi speed handling, the F4U is better. Not sure about top speed, but I am never able to catch F4U's when we are co alt. Of course, the A5 has a much better rate of climb, especially low.
But it does not have 31 seconds of 20mm d1.0 fire. Instant Death(tm) require the FW driver to move in closer by a good margin, and lead the target more.
Luftwobbles never change? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime
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Santa, I'll repeat my offer:
Film something that others can repeat and verify that shows the F4U-1C guns can do something the the FW-190 guns can NOT do inside of 900 yards, air-to-air, with 10% more hit flashes for the FW (to account for the historical difference in the leathality of the round) and I'll buy you a month of AH.
In truth, the F4U-1C and the FW-190A5 are very, very similar as fighters in the MA. The stats reflect that as well, when you subtract vehicle/C-47 kills.
I agree there is a major difference against tanks (although kill stats show M3/M16 kills pretty close). I asked Pyro about it in the "3 questions" thread and we all saw his answer. Guess that's how it's going to be.
...and RAM....it IS the pilot, not the plane. However, that doesn't apply to just the FW. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
<Although altitude is a major factor (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)>
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all the crap (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) give the Lw a 190 who haz hispanons and we stop whining and even C hog will only run away (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
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Oh yea and the FW-A5 has the acceleration the F4U can only dream of ..
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Originally posted by Toad:
Film something that others can repeat and verify that shows the F4U-1C guns can do something the the FW-190 guns can NOT do inside of 900 yards, air-to-air
Toad, it is very very simple. Fly a 190A8 or A5 during some days and then take your own conclusions about their snapshot capability (NULL beyond 250-300 yards). Do the same with F4U and you'll be amazed how easy is to kill with extreme angles at distances beyond 500 yards.
I hope my videos arrived to your site, I suppose you have noticed that every single hispano hit on the B17 caused damage (one hit = one red item in damage list) until the cut of the left wing. In the case of 190, it required more hits to cut the wing, and no damage at all until wing tip was off (in both cases, fire was concentrated on the left wing and from very short distance).
IMO, hispanos and Mg151/20 are anything but comparable guns, at least, in AH world.
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What Mandoble said. Toad; I can meet your request up to a point; I can deliver gun camera films from 190's, and you can see for yourself the effective snapshot range of these guns. I do not fly allied opportunist blue ugly one ping wonder crap metal anymore, so cannot deliver films there.
The FporkU has the same "lethality" (i.e enemy goes boom if hit) at twice the range of the FW guns. As the range closes in, the difference becomes smaller and smaller, and at very short ranges, the FW come out on top thanks to those two monster 30mm's.
Which run out pretty quickly, unfortunately (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime
[This message has been edited by StSanta (edited 08-09-2000).]
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Well, first let's all agree to one historical fact: The Hispano was a higher muzzle velocity, higher mass, lower trajectory projectile. We CAN agree to that, can't we?
It SHOULD do better than the Mg151 and the difference WILL be even MORE noticable as range increases. That is just ballistic fact.
Now, if you feel the Mg151 or the Hispano is incorrectly modeled, send your reliable, FACTUAL data to Pyro, not me. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
As to the current AH leathality, I refer you to Dinger's tests that essentially showed (in AH anyway) it takes 10% more Mg151 hits to do the same damage as Hispano hits. Once again, I refer you to the first part of this post and if you disagree, send your data to Pyro. I find that pretty reasonable, however.
This "+10%" is almost EXACTLY correct in the TA testing that I have done, tests with Mandoble included. It always took just one or two more "hit flashes" with the Mg151 than it did with the Hispano to remove a B-17 wing, or to match any other damage on aircraft.
Out to 900 yards in the current version, this relationship remains true. Simply put, 10 Hispano hits = 11 Mg 151 hits out to 900 yards (assuming you put them all in about the same places).
Now, show me otherwise, in a repeatable test. I'll cheerfully send Grapevine a month's money for you.
As far as snapshots, one major factor is the visibility difference. The F4 has much, much better viz than the FW, a major factor in a deflection shot. Secondarily, the "lob" trajectory of the Mg 151 complicates a snapshot as well.
Once again, you don't need to convince ME that something is wrong with your beloved gun's rof/trajectory/leathality/bluing color/powder smell or anything else. You need to convince PYRO.
Remember gentlemen, I questioned Pyro on the anti-armor capability of the Mg 151 too. I want it "historically correct" as much as you do. While he didn't change that, he did at least say his piece on the subject.
So, put a sock in it! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 08-09-2000).]
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just my .02 here. I fly the 1c a lot now, reason being I view AH as a quick fix frag fest game instead of a sim. Hehe if ya cant beat um join um. I have also tried the 190a5. I cant hit crap with the a5, the bullet drop is friggin impossible to judge for me on a moving target, not so in the 1c. I see a con break hard at d6 and I know its dead, it needs to break MUCH farther away then that, reason being the HS act like .50s to me, fast flat trajectory. Its the snapshot monster. Something I cannot do in the a5. This is just my observations of course.
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Dnil
Maj. 900th Bloody Jaguars
Part time aircraft restorer. www.kingwoodcable.com/jheuer (http://www.kingwoodcable.com/jheuer)
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Toad:
Geeh, you read a lot into my post that isn't there.
Well, first let's all agree to one historical fact: The Hispano was a higher muzzle velocity, higher mass, lower trajectory projectile. We CAN agree to that, can't we?
Please show me where I have ever suggested otherwise?
It SHOULD do better than the Mg151 and the difference WILL be even MORE noticable as range increases. That is just ballistic fact.
Please show me where I've claimed it should not. In fact, I've actively said it does. See my comment about lethal range of the two guns.
Now, if you feel the Mg151 or the Hispano is incorrectly modeled, send your reliable, FACTUAL data to Pyro, not me.
My main beef is not with the Hispano guns, but with the difference in kill stats between the C and D hog. I claim it is caused largely by cannons, since the FM alone cannot make up that huge a difference. Do you agree or disagree with this?
I've stated indirectly that the German Mauser is inferior to the Hispano, and you seem to agree. Good.
As to the current AH leathality, I refer you to Dinger's tests that essentially showed (in AH anyway) it takes 10% more Mg151 hits to do the same damage as Hispano hits. Once again, I refer you to the first part of this post and if you disagree, send your data to Pyro. I find that pretty reasonable, however.
Hm, well, I *could* argue that on fighters, the reverse should be true; the Hispanos carry AP rounds (AFAIK), the Mauser HE ones. On lightly armed targets, such as the fuselage, wings and to some extent engine of a fighter, HE should cause more damage on average. Not counting shots that go through one end of the plane from the rear and exit (or nearly) through the engine. But this is not my point, and I've not argued that the Mauser guns should be more lethal. Well, until now.
This "+10%" is almost EXACTLY correct in the TA testing that I have done, tests with Mandoble included. It always took just one or two more "hit flashes" with the Mg151 than it did with the Hispano to remove a B-17 wing, or to match any other damage on aircraft.
The ability to do it from far out in relative safety is what differentiates the two. And of course ROF.
Out to 900 yards in the current version, this relationship remains true. Simply put, 10 Hispano hits = 11 Mg 151 hits out to 900 yards (assuming you put them all in about the same places).
Not disupting this; what I am arguing is that it is a good deal easier to get hits at 900 yards with the Hispanos. You support this. Hits at 900 with mausers are very rare. The times I've test flown Hispano equipped aircraft, I've been surprised by the relative ease one can score long range hits. Again, not saying anything about modelling, but the relative differences of the two guns.
Now, show me otherwise, in a repeatable test. I'll cheerfully send Grapevine a month's money for you.
I would, if I was arguing that. Since I am not, I won't.
As far as snapshots, one major factor is the visibility difference. The F4 has much, much better viz than the FW, a major factor in a deflection shot. Secondarily, the "lob" trajectory of the Mg 151 complicates a snapshot as well.
Hm, well, I don't mind having the target obscured by my engine; I know where the enemy is going and only rarely does he have the time to evade my lead. I think the main difference is the trajectory and range of the guns.
Once again, you don't need to convince ME that something is wrong with your beloved gun's rof/trajectory/leathality/bluing color/powder smell or anything else. You need to convince PYRO.
Since I am not arguing this, why would I?
Not sure where you got the idea, or non sequitor, or red herring, or straw man from.
Remember gentlemen, I questioned Pyro on the anti-armor capability of the Mg 151 too. I want it "historically correct" as much as you do. While he didn't change that, he did at least say his piece on the subject.
Me too. But I think he did *something* to the Mausres; Before 1.03, I could kill tanks in the FW190A-8, with guns. Now, I cannot. Which is the way it should be.
Am looking forward to getting a tank buster LW plane.
What I have said in this thread about the Hispanos is this:
"The cannons are the main difference between succces and failure amongst F4UC dweebs; without the capability to get One Ping Kills, they scatter and die with great ease. Sobbing, they run back to their cannon armed abberation to get mommy to help out."
That and
"Heh, the c hog is a vulchers dream; one ping HO monster."
A HO with a 190A8 loaded with 30mm is also a One Ping story. I use the term not literally, but rather in the way of "in a very short duration of time, very big pain will be inflicted on you, and you will not have a snowballs chance in hell to live through it". Hope this clarifies it. Maybe I should use the term Instant Death(tm) instead, as I did once.
If this isn't a tongue in cheek comment, I am not sure what is (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
So, put a sock in it!
Heh, if you stop buliding and knocking down strawmen (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
If you take the cotton out of your ears and put it in your mouth, I will help ram that sock so far up your behind you'll feel the wool in your mouth. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
<S!>
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime
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Originally posted by Toad:
Now, if you feel the Mg151 or the Hispano is incorrectly modeled, send your reliable, FACTUAL data to Pyro, not me. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Toad, I'm not saying anything is bad modeled, you asked if we can prove the hispanos can do something the Mg151/21 cant, well this point is clear.
Originally posted by Toad:
As to the current AH leathality, I refer you to Dinger's tests that essentially showed (in AH anyway) it takes 10% more Mg151 hits to ...
I dont need to refer to anyone test, if you remember well, we two have some tests and videos showing that 3 hits of Mg151/20 are
equivalent to ONE of Hispano (3 Mg151/20 = sure damage, 1 Hispano = sure damage).
(NOTE: Each gun tracer was equivalent to 4-5 hit).
Originally posted by Toad:
Now, show me otherwise, in a repeatable test. I'll cheerfully send Grapevine a month's money for you.
ROFLOL, do you want us to move a single finger for that "AMAZING" offer?
Toad, I'm ABSOULUTELY SURE you've never flown the 190 or any other Mg151/20 armed plane in the arena, so, I'm not sure you can be convinced of anything.
AFAIK we were discusing about the advantage of the F4U1C over 109 and 190, we are not discusing the way those guns are modeled. Obviously, any hispano armed plane has a massive advantage over any other armed plane with Mg151/20 (unless the target is static). This is also true with any 50s armed plane, specially the 8x50 P47.
Perhaps, the very poor efectivity of the Mg151/20 is historicaly accurate. But this doesn't mean that the Hispano armed planes have no a significative advantage (probably historicalty accurate also).
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Toad, fly the hog c for a week. get a feel for its guns. Then, fly the 4 cannon equipped 190 for a week. see if you are nearly as good.
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Originally posted by minus:
all the crap (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) give the Lw a 190 who haz hispanons and we stop whining and even C hog will only run away (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
I think this attitude is exactly where all this discussion comes from. There is indeed a perception that NOTHING will satisfy the LW unless those aircraft have the best of everything, historical accuracy be damned. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Santa...aren't you supposed to be a professor or something? Is this the way you make a rational argument to your students?
The things you object to in that post merely state things we can agree on so that we can go forward logically from common ground. I don't believe I ever quoted you or specifically directed any comment at your opinions. I don't believe our (yours and mine) views of the two guns are that different.
Here is a quote with a question though:
"My main beef is not with the Hispano guns, but with the difference in kill stats between the C and D hog. I claim it is caused largely by cannons, since the FM alone cannot make up that huge a difference. Do you agree or disagree with this?"
No, I think you are probably right. Here's my question: If the Fw-190A5 had a variant with 6 MG's and no cannon, would we see a similar disparity in K/D? I think we probably would; what do you think? Cannons are very effective in this game, don't you agree? I also think we'd see the same disparity in how often it was chosen vs the cannon-armed variant as well.
If I ever do put cotton in my ears it would be because my computer plays a loud whine whenever it's on a LW thread. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
...and anytime we meet, you are quite welcome to try to do whatever you think you can handle with that sock (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Mandoble:
"I dont need to refer to anyone test, if you remember well, we two have some tests and videos showing that 3 hits of Mg151/20 are
equivalent to ONE of Hispano (3 Mg151/20 = sure damage, 1 Hispano = sure damage).
(NOTE: Each gun tracer was equivalent to 4-5 hit)."
While we were both doing the tests, it's obvious we came to different conclusions. I simply don't agree with that statement. I count ONLY hit flashes...you count tracer. Using hit flashes, I found 1 Hispano = 1.1 MG151/20. That is what my film shows as well. Your film has never been posted on our site. You might want to check with Thunder on that.
If all we're discussing is that the Hispano is historically a better/more effective cannon than the MG151/20 then we do agree.
...and I don't see why this bothers you guys. After all, we're looking for historical accuracy right?
Now, if you don't like the way some players use the F4...that's a whole different gameplay subject. I'll also suggest that ANY aircraft armed with 4 cannons can be and often is used the same way as the F4U.
I don't worry about how somebody else plays the game. Their $30 so let them play as they wish. I merely make the necessary modifications to my style to account for them.
[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 08-09-2000).]
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Originally posted by Zigrat:
Toad, fly the hog c for a week. get a feel for its guns. Then, fly the 4 cannon equipped 190 for a week. see if you are nearly as good.
Personally, my lifetime with the A8 is 4 to 1,and lifetime with the cannon hog its 4.5 to 1, only because I get the Chog to operation altitude quicker (without getting jumped enroute) than the A8.
Not much difference to me, guns are just as lethal IMO with the FW190-A8 as they are with the Chog, now that they've been tweaked. If someone is above you , both are at a severe disadvantage.
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 08-09-2000).]
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Originally posted by Toad:
While we were both doing the tests, it's obvious we came to different conclusions. I simply don't agree with that statement. I count ONLY hit flashes...you count tracer. Using hit flashes, I found 1 Hispano = 1.1 MG151/20. That is what my film shows as well. Your film has never been posted on our site. You might want to check with Thunder on that.
[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 08-09-2000).]
Negative, I count groups of flashes. As you should remember, in our tests, we were shooting tracer by tracer, one -> stop -> check results -> another one -> stop -> ...
Each shoot comes with a tracer, and each direct hit of a single shoot comes with 4-5 flashes. In my videos against B17 from less than 300 yards, it is clear that each Hispano tracer (group of 4-5 flases) that hits the B17 caused damage. First tracer set = one engine off, second tracer set = wing off. In the case of 190A8, first tracer set = no damage, second tracer set = no damage, third tracer set = wing tip off.
Yep, your mate never published my films, anyway, they are ready to download from:
http://www.terra.es/personal2/matias.s/ (http://www.terra.es/personal2/matias.s/)
Both links are:
Hispanos vs B17
Mg151/20 vs B17
Use "Save Link As" option to download both films.
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Santa...aren't you supposed to be a professor or something? Is this the way you make a rational argument to your students?
I am usually a professor only in my dreams. Still working on my degree in computer science (I spent my youth, err, well, chasing blonde girls (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif))
The things you object to in that post merely state things we can agree on so that we can go forward logically from common ground. I don't believe I ever quoted you or specifically directed any comment at your opinions. I don't believe our (yours and mine) views of the two guns are that different.
Hm, well, it seemed they were directed at me, since I was one of the few nutty Luftwobble persons to have made any recent points. Sorry for the mistake.
Here is a quote with a question though:
"My main beef is not with the Hispano guns, but with the difference in kill stats between the C and D hog. I claim it is caused largely by cannons, since the FM alone cannot make up that huge a difference. Do you agree or disagree with this?"
No, I think you are probably right. Here's my question: If the Fw-190A5 had a variant with 6 MG's and no cannon, would we see a similar disparity in K/D? I think we probably would; what do you think? Cannons are very effective in this game, don't you agree? I also think we'd see the same disparity in how often it was chosen vs the cannon-armed variant as well.
Well, there would be a difference, I think. But if it had .50's, it shouldn't saw the k/d in half. I think the difference between the two F4U models is so noticeable. 6 times .50's is an *effective* gun package, IMHO.
But cannons rule this game, yer totally right about that.
If I ever do put cotton in my ears it would be because my computer plays a loud whine whenever it's on a LW thread.
LOL I guess I deserved that (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime
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Originally posted by Ripsnort:
Not much difference to me, guns are just as lethal IMO with the FW190-A8 as they are with the Chog, now that they've been tweaked.
There is a factor even more important than lethality itself, the chance of hit. Now tell me that hitting with Mg151/20 is as easy as with Hispanos ...
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MANDOBLE,
Tell me why it should be as easy to hit with an Mg151/20 as with a Hispano MkII?
Sisu
-Karnak
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Originally posted by StSanta:
Hm, well, it seemed they were directed at me, since I was one of the few nutty Luftwobble persons to have made any recent points. Sorry for the mistake....
But if it had .50's, it shouldn't saw the k/d in half. I think the difference between the two F4U models is so noticeable. 6 times .50's is an *effective* gun package, IMHO.
Ah, no offense taken...I figured it must be raining over there and taxes just went up again. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I think the LW MG's would cause an even larger difference than between the two hogs. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) They are not quite as robust as the Brownings. Now, I'm not disparaging LW stuff. I just believe that it is true here in AH. Peace, my brothers!
Rude keeps whacking me over the head with the fact that 6x.50 is an effective gun package....inside 300 yards. He's right; I'm really working on restraining my urge to kill that long and my gunnery % has nearly doubled and "quick kills" are more common. I used to figure anything inside of 500 was a legit shot for the P-51 but I am now firmly in "Rude The Merciless'" corner.
A 6x12.7 or 6x.50 BMG FW would be a nice fantasy plane to fool around with and see how it affected K/D, wouldn't it?
Mandoble:
Got the films, thx. Will review yours with respect to mine.
[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 08-09-2000).]
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Originally posted by Karnak:
MANDOBLE,
Tell me why it should be as easy to hit with an Mg151/20 as with a Hispano MkII?
Sisu
-Karnak
??? Cant understand you AT ALL. Im talking about the differences with both cannos, and admitting that hitting with Hispanos is much easier than with Mg151/20. And that Hispanos are a more lethal weapon. I'm only setting clearly the advantages of hispano gun armed planes over any axis one. I'm not telling anybody that Mg151/20 should be as effective as hispanos. But, here, there are some blinded ones that dont see differences between both cannons.
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I really like the YAK.
Cobra
Musketeer Escadrille
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This simply tells me that the earlier war planeset needs to be fleshed out, and needs its own environment, devoid of Ueberplanes, to shine.
No early war plane is going to do anything but DIE, on average, vs the speedy late war ueber planes. It's just technological progress manifesting itself.
Let's see what happens if you allow a early-mid war planeset in an arena, exclusively, or one of the new terrains to stir things up.
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Just one question for Pyro...
Pretty PLEASE can you tell us the ammo modelled for the hispanos?...because:
-If it is AP then AA rounds are WAY too powerful compared with Mauser's HE
-If it is HE then AG rounds are WAY too powerful compared with Mauser's HE
-If it is APHE (mixed) then is UNREALISTIC as no C hogs carried that ammo load in WWII.
And if it is APHE then why does one single ping of Hispano ALWAYS damage something on a fighter?--------------------->sometimes it would be AP not HE so sometimes there would be less damage with AP than with HE.
What I believe is that now we have a mixed AP/HE...ON A SINGLE ROUND!. So each round is an armor piercing HE. I dont know the existance of such ammo for hispanos in WWII.
Of course I can be wrong.
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Ram,
From Gameplay feedback/issues, Tank busting Spitfires.....
Pyro said:
"As for the question of different types of rounds, we'll probably only do those for large caliber weapons with low rates of fire. For high rate of fire weapons, we try to model the capabilities of the weapon in general based on the different ammo types used."
Bold type is mine to emphasize area of interest. That's about all I've ever seen on different ammo types. I'm not _exactly_ sure what it means but I think there's certainly a possibility you are right.
[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 08-09-2000).]
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-If it is APHE (mixed) then is UNREALISTIC as no C hogs carried that ammo load in WWII.
Oh really, RAM?
Could you please share that "proof" with us?
I have an extensive library on American Aircraft, and have read quite a bit more, and I have never seen any evidence of this.
Please share.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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Statements like
"Prove to me the so and so is over modeled in AH" are silly.
Does anybody have the exact numbers that Pyro uses for each of these weapons and the tables that resolve the damage vs each type of aircraft?
Toad do you have that?
You dont. Pyro rightly does not release them. He would then have to defend in concrete every item, and every one with a new source would challenge them again.
So we are guessing.
You are guessing Toad.
Dont pretend otherwise. We are all just relateing our experiaces in the game vs what we may have gathered was the expected effect of a weapon in WW2. Because for the most part we dont have the real numbers from then either. Was a test done to establish that X Hispano AP rounds where needed to destroy fighter A while X + Y Mg151/20 HE rounds where needed for the same fighter.
I dont think so. So what is the harm in discussing the percieved effect in the game vs the percieved effect in WW2?
That is all that happening here.
A real useful post from someone that insists on supporting the Status Quo in AH would be one that quotes a memoir or battle account of a LW or RAF pilot and even mentions that he even felt his guns where supperior or gave suppior engagment range in Air to Air combat.
I have been unable to find any such mention.
None.
Certainly the early hispano in this game was far to powerful air to air. If a weapon of that capability was introduced in WW2 it would have warrented mention. Like the Long Lance torpedo, The P51 over berlin, The Hellcat vs the Zero. Etc Etc. Weapons that have an impact like that would have been remembered. But it is increadably dificult to establish any historical reference for the effectiveness of the Hispano in AH.
The ballistic tables and the pictures of the rounds are undisputed. What was the effect of that in WW2. Could any one shoot at 1k? Did the rounds often punch through non critical areas instead of exploding in the structure?
Even with the advantage it offers now, the AH hispano would have left a historical foot print like the Long Lance at least. The work required to be able to kill at 700-900 yards vs 300 - 500 yards is a huge advantage in air to air combat.
Why are people so offended by the discussion?
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Originally posted by RAM:
Just one question for Pyro...
Pretty PLEASE can you tell us the ammo modelled for the hispanos?...because:
-If it is AP then AA rounds are WAY too powerful compared with Mauser's HE
-If it is HE then AG rounds are WAY too powerful compared with Mauser's HE
-If it is APHE (mixed) then is UNREALISTIC as no C hogs carried that ammo load in WWII.
And if it is APHE then why does one single ping of Hispano ALWAYS damage something on a fighter?
I dont know about the 1c but the Mossie and Spit shure fired mixed loads in 44.
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MANDOBLE,
My apologies. I took your post to mean that you thought that the Mg151/20 was improperly modeled because it had a harder time hitting than the Hispano MkII.
I think that the cannons hit close to as hard as one another, when striking aircraft, with the advantage going to the Hispano by about 10%. However when we discuss effectiveness muzzle velocity/trajectory and rate of fire must also be discussed. The muzzle velocity/trajectory heavily favors the Hispano and while the Mg151/20 has a higher rate of fire, the Hispano is clearly at an advatage in striking other aircraft.
Sisu
-Karnak
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[/quote]
I really like the YAK.
Cobra
Musketeer Escadrille
[/quote]
Heh, I noticed. Yesterday at A15, you really wanted me bad. I was extending as quickly as I could, ya had two or three friendlies on ya, but you still went for the suicide run.
Ya must have had tracers off, as my scissors weren't effective (couldn't see you open up).
Second time a YAK kills me. Annoying (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime
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Yak-9U's FM is very strange now.
I'd like to say that it's not Yak-9U but FW-190D9
Current Yak-9U has good speed, climb, acceleration and roll perfomance, but turns worse than FW-190A5. Sounds like Dora.
But if Yak-9U is modeled right then FW-190A5 certainly performs like Yak-3.
I prefer do not fly both Yak-9U and FW-190A5 until 1.04
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Pongo,
What I've said is that after spending about 3 hours with Beemer in the TA (version 1.02) and nearly two hours with Mandoble (version 1.03) using both the FW and the F4U-1C against the same targets, at the same ranges, as both shooter and shootee and trying very hard to do everything EXACTLY the same....
I was unable to find any significant difference in the leathality or range between the two rounds in an air-to-air environment. My conclusion is that Dinger, in his testing had it about right. The Hispano is about 10% more lethal out to 930 yards. You can get hits with the Hispano out to about 980-1000 where the version 1.03 FW is unable to do that; there is a slight range difference ~50-70 yards.
That, sir, is ALL I have said.
That is based on TA testing that I personally have been involved in and is repeatable. I would be happy to repeat it with anyone that is interested.
As to most of the other comments, ROF, Trajectory, etc., I am on record as generally agreeing with the common perception, which happens to coincide with what we all apparently perceive to be historical fact.
I am totally for historical accuracy as best we can determine it for all aircraft/vehicles in this game.
What I asked is exactly contrary to your "prove to me the so and so is over modeled in AH".
What I actually said in that challenge is "show me that the lethality/range are significantly different." They aren't.
Trajectory, yes. ROF, yes. Leath?
+10%. Range? About 60 yards.
That's what I said. Sorry if I wasn't clear enough.
[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 08-09-2000).]
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Originally posted by Karnak:
... and while the Mg151/20 has a higher rate of fire
The Mg151/20 "alone" has a higer rate of fire, agree. But we have synchronized Mg151/20 here, and the ROF drops a lot.
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Originally posted by Toad:
Trajectory, yes. ROF, yes. Leath?
+10%. Range? About 60 yards.
Toad, it seems you are refering to the lethality of a single bullet. The lethality of a gun is the sum of trayectory, ROF, range, muz vel, round lethality itself, etc.
IMO, the overal lethality of Mg151/20 is about 50% of the Hispanos.
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Originally posted by StSanta:
[/quote]
Heh, I noticed. Yesterday at A15, you really wanted me bad. I was extending as quickly as I could, ya had two or three friendlies on ya, but you still went for the suicide run.
Ya must have had tracers off, as my scissors weren't effective (couldn't see you open up).
Second time a YAK kills me. Annoying (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
LOL Santa....Yeah I did want to get you. I was originally diving down to help a squadmate but you shot him down before I got there, so I just continued the attack run.
Yeah I did have tracers off. I find it helps when flying the YAK, given its low ammo load. I does not let the enemy know when you are firing.
I did manage to survive a little while longer after I got you, but not much longer...hehe
Cobra
Musketeer Escadrille
[/b][/QUOTE]
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE:
Toad, it seems you are refering to the lethality of a single bullet.
That is exactly what I am referring to. The leathality of the single projectile.
HTC probably has relatively good, historical numbers for ROF.
They probably have excellent historical numbers for Muzzle Velocity.
I'll wager ballistic trajectory requires a bit of a guess, simply because I'm betting Pyro does not have the exact ballistic coefficients for each projectile. While the equations for trajectory are available and indisputable...you have to have the correct BC. So, there may be some mirrors and black magic involved here but I don't believe there is any attempt at "favoritism"; just a lack of exact data and they have to do the best they can.
Now to the heart of the issue: individual projectile leathality. This is undoubtedly the greatest "it depends" in the entire "guns" issue.
It depends on the type of projectile (AP/HE)
It depends on range, particulary in the case of a simple non-explosive projectile. (Kinetic Energy)
It depends on where you hit the target. (Aileron fabric versus pilot's brain pan.)
It depends on how many rounds you put into one small area. (Saw through the main wing spar or just put one hole in it.)
It depends on how HTC built the damage model. (How many hits of what type in what area does it take to remove a wing under what G load.)
I could go on, but I think you get the idea.
To me the greatest overall variable then is individual projectile leathality and the one for which there is ABSOLUTELY no way to get it "historically correct."
However, after 5 hours in the TA shooting at things with the FW and the F4 it has been my experience that the two rounds have essentially the same individual leathality and essentially the same maximum range (air-to-air mode).
The pilot does not control ROF. The pilot does not control muzzle velocity. The pilot cannot control individual round leathality.
Basically the ONLY thing the pilot can control is the shot itself (aim). Therefore, I have focused on what happens when an individual round lands on target. In my experience, if you...the pilot...can land either a MG151/20 round or a Hispano round in exactly the same place on an aircraft you will get essentially the same effect.
THAT is all I have been saying. And I'm willing to wager that HTC planned it that way.
[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 08-10-2000).]
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Toad said:
The pilot does not control ROF. The pilot does not control muzzle velocity. The pilot cannot control individual round leathality.
Basically the ONLY thing the pilot can control is the shot itself (aim). Therefore, I have focused on what happens when an individual round lands on target. In my experience, if you...the pilot...can land either a MG151/20 round or a Hispano round in exactly the same place on an aircraft you will get essentially the same effect.
THAT is all I have been saying. And I'm willing to wager that HTC planned it that way.
[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 08-10-2000).]
Bingo.
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 08-10-2000).]
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Originally posted by Toad:
...the pilot...can land either a MG151/20 round or a Hispano round in exactly the same place on an aircraft you will get essentially the same effect.
That only means that you didnt donwload any of my films.
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I watched them. I watched mine again. I counted individual hit flashes on the target in both sets of films.
I simply disagree with you.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)