Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Citabria on August 17, 2003, 04:49:24 PM
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been playing wb a lot lately, and i noticed how much i missed doing hammerheads in 109s and 38's going to near 0 or 0 airspeed and ruddering around rapidly pointing down at my would be atacker.
ive done this in real life in many planes some not designed to do such maneuvers and in AH it seems so difficult and unnatural to do this maneuver. the plane wallows and stops responding with the heavy engine up front still pointing at the horizon or in some sort of wierd giration around the horizon even with power off.
and elevator authority is separated into up and down with a lag going between the two. try doing a rapid -g pushover in ah and the plane just sits there like its waiting for somthing. at least 109s should be able to do this but even they cant do it without the lag.
so it seems ah has great ailerons and awful elevator and rudder
and wb has awful ailerons and great elevator and rudder.
and i really miss doing hammerheads(real ones not AH style flopovers)
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anyone else notice this?
shouldnt hammerheads be much easier to acomplish?
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Hi citabria,
If I remember correctly, this is a know limitation of the AH1 modelling.
There have been discussions about this in the past, and there are some corrections and enhancements for the AH2 modelling, that should fix this.
I dont have any links handy, but torque and propwash I think are getting changes.
Someone I know in RL could hamerhead to the left beautifully, but couldnt get the plane to the right without autorotating. Why would that be? Is that because of the torque and spiralling airflow over the rudder? Possibly?
I think this is whats being changed in AH2
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Yea hammerheards are really bizzare in AH, planes just sit there hover for a bit and then flop uncontrollably.... This really hurts E fighters on a rope as you have no real control and I know from RC planes that rudder maintains a great deal of authrity in just such a situation.
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Agreed. Aces High's low speed/stall physics leave a lot to be desired. Not only are hammerheads difficult and come out looking wrong, but whipstalls don't work either. The tail just seems to stop working in the AH planes at very low airspeeds. What I've always wanted to do in a P47 is climb straight up (with enemies trailing me, bleed off airspeed till I start falling tailfirst and rapidly whip over on them for a shot. I did this all the time in RC planes and have seen several full scale planes (including warbirds) doing it. The closest thing you can do in Aces High is more of a pointy topped loop.
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Yep ... definitly... but now that Hitech is practicing them in his RV, he will probably try to recreate "the feeling" in AH:cool:
In Cessna's/Pipers, you go almost vertical, bleed your E, put ur bank in, float for 1 - 2 secs then zooooooooo the nose falls down, wiggles like a pendule for a sec and there you go down screaming:D
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Originally posted by Rollio
What I've always wanted to do in a P47 is climb straight up (with enemies trailing me, bleed off airspeed till I start falling tailfirst and rapidly whip over on them for a shot. The closest thing you can do in Aces High is more of a pointy topped loop.
You can do this in AH, ask Funked :D
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well what makes me concerned is that warbirds wich is much more outdated flight modelwise has always had the vertical low speed aspect down perfect. will AH by getting more advanced fix this control anomoly?
is there some mathematical error causing this wierd behavior in the planes? sure a hammerhead can be done but planes ive flown almost want to hammer over with just a simple kick of the rudder and it does a perfect vertical 180 with almost no effort just like in warbirds. in ah i can almost get it to look like a hammerhead but its just not right.
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Yup, hammerheads in AH can't be performed like in RL.
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Slight vernacular problem here. I understood "hammerhead" to mean pulling up, nose pointing at the sky till speed was almost all gone, then pushing the nose over with elevator. Have done that in gliders, and we called that a hammerhead. What Citabria describes is what I understood to be a "stall-turn". I've done that too - in a powered plane but not a glider, and the end result was influenced by the engine torque, so they were easy to do to the left, harder but not impossible (I am told) to do to the right. Of course the engine torque issue should be moot in the P38, unless operating the engines separately. But this has got me thinking. I'll go and try a few things offline...
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I don't think it's just the lack of control at slow speeds. Apart from that it seems to work nice till the nose starts dropping. When it's half way down (e.g. just passing the horizon) the angular momentum of the turn comes to a stop as if there was no conservation of momentum, seems to be forced to a stop by either wings or fuselage (depending on where the nose dropped) beeing level.
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I have heard hammerhead and stallturn used interchanably, but either way both are not very elegant in AH as opposed to my experiences in RC planes and watching all manner of RL planes. :)
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the question is... has anyone here flown a double-hammerhead? (the best my RC zero did was 1 and 3/4 but it was grossly overweight)
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Originally posted by Blue Mako
Yup, hammerheads in AH can't be performed like in RL.
What about with duel throttle control? Cutting rpms to an engine as you fall over? :confused:
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This has been discussed many times, including this thread (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=89481&highlight=inverted+flat+spin), which I think is the most recent one.
Simply put, almost every plane in AH except the Spits, N1K2, Hurricanes, Zeros and the P-38L.. needs to save a considerable margin of speed prior to the reversal while vertical, or it will fall under the dreaded flat spin. Which means, around 100mph, you have to start heading your nose down.
Usually this tendency is a lot higher on combat trim than manual, but in some planes like the F4U-1 series, it is dangerous to try a pure vertical even with manual.
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It is also one of the reasons why friggin' N1K2s and Spit9s can snipe you out of your vertical - they don't need to save the '100mph' like other planes. Just nose up straight, aim and shoot until your plane absolutely cannot nose-up any longer(which is around 30~40mph), and then ease a bit on the controls and gain some speed, and they recover control of the plane almost instantly. When you have to go through the reversal, and start pointing your plane nose to the ground at about 70 mph, the Spit9 and the N1K2 is still pointing the guns at you.. :D but that's for another thread...
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Originally posted by Rollio
the question is... has anyone here flown a double-hammerhead? (the best my RC zero did was 1 and 3/4 but it was grossly overweight)
Waterfalls are cool... :)
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I remember doing a hammer head on a 109(F or G) and the nose stayed straight up from 5k all the way to the ground.:cool:
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It's rather wierd that your plane's nose would just hang in the air like in AH. I always thought that due to aerodynamics of the plane(it was ment to go forward) and the weight of the nose becuase of the engine, the plane would almost automatically bring it's nose down in a situation when a hammerhead is being attempted. I've noticed in some low speed situations and I am stalling(not an accelerated stall, just airspeed got too low), my nose just does not want to fall. Instead it sometimes prefers to go up. I don't remember what plane I was in, probably either a Hurricane MK IIC, A6M5b, or a Spitfire V or IX. But it seems that many planes in AH suffer from this.
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One of the first things I noticed coming from AW was the diferential lack of control authority worsened below 100.
I just put it down to AW's old airplanes on rails feel which AH was trying to avoid.
Air flow direction over some of the control surfaces is rather unique in a hammerhead isn't it?
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so it seems ah has great ailerons and awful elevator and rudder
and wb has awful ailerons and great elevator and rudder.
I was thinking the exact same thing a week or so ago. The way WB models roll is porked, and trying AH I still have not gotten use to the elevator authority and lack of vertical moves.
Somewhere between the two FMs would be more than adequate. :)
Kekule
WB: 18th Sentai
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I've never tried. Will an AH flight model do a tail slide to a whip at the end ?? I can't do a decent hammerhead here.
Brief experiment with auto trim it seemed planes were more prone to flat spins than with manual trim ( hated it ) I was flat spinnin my ride where I rarely did it with manual trim.
I agree with the above.
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With 190s, with more than 60% fuel I get a "somewhat" hammerhead 1 out of 20 attempts, and 1 out of 10 with 30% or less. And yes, I miss the WB style hammerheads/wingovers, they were my favorite moves.
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I can get perfect hammer heads to work in AH ... it's just trickey.... gotta watch the torque and ease off thottle if need be, then get the rudder in just right.... works for me easy in somethign like a hog or p47 .. on other planes, with less rudder authority, I have a harder time. On a hog i could get a perfect hammer every time ...
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AH's IL2 hammerheads quite well..
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I can do them in P-38s and 109s/190s, I sometimes lose control at the bottom of it and start spinning though.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
Simply put, almost every plane in AH except the Spits, N1K2, Hurricanes, Zeros and the P-38L.. needs to save a considerable margin of speed prior to the reversal while vertical...
I realy realy realy hope HTC fix this in AH2. Only the P-38 should be so forgiving at very slow speeds, and even the P-38 is too forgiving in AH IMHO.
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Originally posted by Rutilant
AH's IL2 hammerheads quite well..
As does the goon (if you cut one engine at least).
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ive been flying wb a bit more and am convinced their rudder elevator low speed modeling is much much more realistic. even accelerated stalls seem to happen in air while in ah the plane feels like its on rails.
but wb ailerons limit their entire spectrum of dogfighting into an elevator and rudder game. ah seems to do the opposite
but wb smooting code is much less refined than ah and the fighting in close suffers. especially against warpy 190's
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been screwing aorund with it more in other planes.. most rudders are just too weak at low speed ... you can do it right, it just takes way to long ... faster to just use elve on many planes