Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: StSanta on August 08, 2000, 09:11:00 AM
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Well, said in another post I'd make my opinions and reasonings about the head on issue, so here goes.
I will make use of a fictional example with two pilots; one in an aircraft with inferior guns compared to the other. This pilot, however, has a skill rating of 100 points, while the better gun aircraft pilot has one of 50 points.
In a normal 1 v 1 without head ons, the better pilot would win at a rate about 2:1 at least, probably more.
But, in a head on, things change. With two planes with equal guns, the chances are about 50/50, assuming straight head on with little jinking, or very late jinking.
Now, with a superior gun package, the 50 point pilot has negated the skill difference, and actually found himself at an advantage; say 60/40 or 65/35.
And this. my very fine friends and allied opportunists, is why I consider head ons dweebish and skill negating. I accept them as part of the game and sometimes a good way to even the odds (like in the case of many vs 1), but, it is my opinion head ons are made by either pilots with inferior skills, or very dumb pilots with superior skills; why would the superior pilot want to negate his advantage in skill?
It is my hope you do not see this as a whine, but rather an informative post about head ons in general.
Thoughts, anyone?
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime
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Right on, StSanta!
Just say NO! to the HO!
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Whatever your belief on headons.. they have their place in the arena.
In the case of base defense.. where the enemy has taken down ack and is straffing the runway a HO may be your only shot. If you get him.. 1 less attacker. If you don't... oh well you don't have to go far when you re-plane.
Or... when the enemy clearly has an advantage at the merge and is silly enough to point straight at you.
HOs happen. The only thing that really irritates me is when someone gets on the comms and calls someone an HO dweeb. It ranks right up there with "ack huggers" and "runners".
AKDejaVu
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i'm beginning to take that old TopGun saying...(as far as HO's are concerned)
"Do not fire unless fired upon"
i find myself firing a lot. dweebs.
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Mason22
Fat Drunk Bastards (http://fdb.50megs.com) -- "shut up and FLY"
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(SIGH) Here we go again! Beating a dead horse! http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/002462.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/002462.html)
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Originally posted by StSanta:
And this. my very fine friends and allied opportunists, is why I consider head ons dweebish and skill negating. SNIP- but, it is my opinion head ons are made by either pilots with inferior skills, or very dumb pilots with superior skills; why would the superior pilot want to negate his advantage in skill?
Thoughts anyone?
Ya, one thought, you want some cheese Liberace?
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I always wondered, what's the problem with HOs? As someone said before, it takes 2 to HO so if you get killed, it's your own fault. Btw, there is a number of anti-HO guys here who, while flying in AH, does not miss an opportunity to spary some lead in HO.
Then there are others well known here people - they climb to 30k and do B&Z, but if you brake high into them on their attack run and kill them, they call you HO dweeb.
The only real HO situation is when 2 planes merge coalt or almost coalt and shoot at each other. Rest is simply people being upset at being killed and looking at others to make their kill look dweebish.
mx22
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These HO threads make me laugh now.
When I first started on AH I read the BBS and saw everyone saying how HO's were dweebish and a cheap shot that no one took or appreciated. Then I started flying in the MA and was routinely HO'd by good pilots. When I metioned this fact to them on the open channel ("lucky HO shot mr xxxxx" and the like) I got beaten down with "That wasn't a HO Sparks that was an acute angle but not HO".
I now rountine take an "acute angle" shot if it presents itself as a way to get a kill.
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/that happens when the opposite plane hase more energy and ho's u out off a loop or circle
personaly i would like to avoid all ho's
that can be hard sometimes. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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Sparks
LOL!!
Next time that happens, you might counter by correcting their understanding of math terminology.
Acute angles, by definition, are angles less than 90 degrees.
HOs, in RL are defined as gun attacks where the crossing angles are greater than 135 degrees. In RL, any short range gun attack that results in crossing angles greater than 135 degrees is aborted for safety reasons.
Andy
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Just to clarify, as mx22 stated, I only dislike the HO when it's used in a fair, co-alt merge.
Some of you will shoot whenever the chance presents itself. Fine. But that doesn't mean I have to respect you for that.
Learn some ACM people!
Have a nice day, HO dweebs.
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So, StSanta, what you're saying is that you want my low speed, slow climbing Spitfire MkIX to nicely present its tail to you're Bf109G-10 so that you can shoot it down with no danger to yourself?
For slower aircraft that can't climb like rockets the HO is frequently the only way they can defend themselves.
Does that answer some of your misunderstandings, Axis sympathizer (StSanta)?
Sisu
-Karnak
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So, StSanta, what you're saying is that you want my low speed, slow climbing Spitfire MkIX to nicely present its tail to you're Bf109G-10 so that you can shoot it down with no danger to yourself?
Yes please (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif). That would be a good start.
For slower aircraft that can't climb like rockets the HO is frequently the only way they can defend themselves.
Not entirely true; I am routinely attacked by high cons; it's part of the game when you dive into a furball.
What a slower plane can do is bleed the enemy of energy, use it superior turning capabilities and shoot him down.
What he cannot do is bug out. The plane with the higher energy state (kinetic energy and potential energy) will dictate the fight *but it can be reversed*.
What I'd like Spits to do more is go for maneuver kills rather than Head Ons.
Does that answer some of your misunderstadings, Axis sympathizer (StSanta)?
I don't sympathize with the nazi's. I just fly Luftwaffe iron.
What misunderstandings do I have? Please, if you will, address the points in my original post about negating skill differences.
Damned allied opportunist HO dweeb (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime
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StSanta, I'm going to keep refering to you as an Axis sympathizer until you stop refering to Allied pilots as opportunists.
Aircraft bleed speed too fast to be able to use manuvering to get a faster aircraft.
If I findmyself above a G-10 in a MkIX I certanly won't go for the HO, but 90% of the time the G-10, P-38 or the like is above me and I've been climbing for the last five minutes and so am going 150mph. My only recourse is HO. I suppose I could just let him kill me, but where's the fun it that.
Sisu
-Karnak
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I think it's time to bring some real understanding to this nearly mindnumbing endless train of thought.
I will fire at you headon,I will fire at you from your six,I will take the long range high-deflection crossing shot,I will vulch you as you take off, I will turn into you when you come in close.
In short I will do whatever it takes to beat you in ATA (not warping,or other "game" things) Dweeb? unfair? aww shaddup, dead people can't talk.
"Roam your assigned airspace,sight the enemy,shoot him down,the rest is rubbish"
-Manfred Von Richthofen, a Dweeb's dweeb.
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pzvg- "5 years and I still can't shoot"
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Squad night tomorrow, and I'm already a dweeb...I think I need to see how many HO & chute kills I can score in one night. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
SOB
LuftWaffles...
...make the best targets
...gripe the most about crap I couldn't care less about
...are best served with .50 cal in their tail...or canopy...or nose! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Originally posted by pzvg:
I think it's time to bring some real understanding to this nearly mindnumbing endless train of thought.
I will fire at you headon,I will fire at you from your six,I will take the long range high-deflection crossing shot,I will vulch you as you take off, I will turn into you when you come in close.
In short I will do whatever it takes to beat you in ATA (not warping,or other "game" things) Dweeb? unfair? aww shaddup, dead people can't talk.
"Roam your assigned airspace,sight the enemy,shoot him down,the rest is rubbish"
-Manfred Von Richthofen, a Dweeb's dweeb.
I have to agree with ol Manfred here. There are no rules about when or where you can target your opponent. Granted HO's are a risky shot, but if I have an opportunity to take a shot, I'm gonna take it.
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Granted HO probably require less skill than to survive a drawn out engagement, I allways considered them allmost like an aircraft attribute, some are better at it than others. If you're aircraft is has good durability and firepower like say the P47, it can be a great tool to help even the odds against a superior pilot or a quick way to negate an E disadvantage. That being said I don't see the point in accepting a HO in a fight where I clearly have the advantage. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
[This message has been edited by Soulyss (edited 08-08-2000).]
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What is an HO?
99% of the time, you are not seeing what the other guy is seeing.
I got accused of an HO the other night. From my side, I had a 90 degree planform shot, looking straight down on the guy as he flew under me.
He started above me, pointed his nose straight at me from about 4K out. As he dove and closed, I pulled up, rolled inverted and split on him. Got a shot at about 400 yds, miscalculated the necessary lead and missed him cleanly. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
I rolled back to the initial heading from my near-vertical dive and left him holding his joystick. He could never catch me, so I got to listen to the "HO dweeb" taunt.
A HO shot? Nope, not on my end.
That's why all this is so pointless.
1. HO's WERE used in WW2 combat. Accept it.
2. You have absolutely no clue as to how the shot is looking to your opponent.
3. "No HO" is a gameplay concept, not an ACM concept. See Andy Bush's remarks above and in previous posts.
4. If you don't LIKE HO's....move your airplane!
...and that's all I have to say about that!
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Ya, and we all know what happened to Manfred ol' boy, don't we. Perhaps if he had let Lt. May go free instead of chasing him halfway to London just to get a kill, he may have lived to see another day.
It's interesting to note that Richtofen never once had a HO kill.
Soulyss, thank you for shedding some intelligence to this thread. That's exactly what I've been trying to say.
[This message has been edited by banana (edited 08-08-2000).]
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I do HOs when I feel that I need to.
I win most HOs.
I also have had great vertical advantages over enmy planes, only to have them suprisingly turn it into a HO that they win. And all I can think of is <S> to the victor!
eskimo
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Eskimo said:
I also have had great vertical advantages over enmy planes, only to have them suprisingly turn it into a HO that they win. And all I can think of is <S> to the victor!
Right you are, Eskimo. Nothing wrong with a HO in this case. But, when two people meet pretty much head-on at co-alt, what should take place(IMHO) is a great duel to the death using any and all manuevers. So many great fights are wasted because one(or both) of the pilots decided to come into the merge with guns blazing.
Ya, I know, if I was worth my salt I could avoid a HO in that situation. I dunno fellas, I'm prolly the biggest whiner about HO's, but that's only because I like a good fight, whether I win or not. A HO kill at co-alt merge just ruins a potentially awesome, and memorable, fight.
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I agree with everyone who isn't squeaking about head ons. They happen, so deal with it. No one is going to change their flying style to better suit someone elses.
Soulyss also brings up a good point, and that is that some planes are certainly better suited to engage in a head on than others. Those planes also have weaknesses in other areas. Everyone knows that it is a caveat of war to exploit your opponents weaknesses while avoiding his strengths relative to your own. If you are in a plane with small guns and little armor, then you are exposing your weaknesses to your opponents strengths by giving the pilot of a heavily armed & armored plane the opportunity for a head on. That is a big (and potentially fatal) error that YOU have made. It isn't the other pilot's fault that you play into one his strong suits -- its yours.
Gordo
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banana,
If I'm in a Spit IX, co-alt with a Bf109G-10 and I don't HO, he's simply going to extend away, gain alt and come back at me from a position of advantage. In that case, due to the wide separation of capabilities of the two craft, a HO on initial merge is my best bet at survival.
I could no more expect him to get in a turn fight with my Spit than he should expect me to let him BnZ me in his Bf109G-10.
In neither case do we get a nice series of ACM moves. The potential for the ACM only exists if the two aircraft or near matches in each performance area.
Sisu
-Karnak
[This message has been edited by Karnak (edited 08-08-2000).]
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IMO HOs are a minor thing to whine about... There are about 1 of 20 cases where HO CANNOT be avoided. If you are a skilled pilot then you can see wheather the enemy is going to make it to HO or not. The E loss of avoiding the HO is minimal and if you are fighting a HO pilot he is sure to be less skilled than you are. As for defending against high cons... I know it can be bithcy but even the most skilled pilots can fall to E traps and bounces can be easily avoided with a bit of E.
Just everyone who starts whining about HO (not necessarily meaning this thread) mark this old quote: "It takes two to HO".
Dusk
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I like a good HO with fishnet stocking milehigh pumps red lipstick........ (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif).
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You guys are right.
It's time to bring out the HO in me, afterall. I don't have the best aim, but I can spray A Tiffy's complement of Hispanos with the best of them.
Thanks for helping me see the light. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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banana, you of all people should know that Ron Jeremy likes a good HO!
Cobra
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"Excuse me while I whip this out" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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From James Howard's book, Roar of the Tiger:
"In Blakeslee's briefing that afternoon, he explained we had three tactics to use against the enemy: (1) shoot down the enemy plane (or be shot down), (2) make the enemy fighter break off an attack first, (3) if the enemy fighter fails to break off, continue on a collision course.
We were stunned. Did he mean we should deliberately ram the enemy head-on?
Blakeslee hesitated for emphasis and then said, 'We never turn away from a head-on attack. If we do, the word will get back to Luftwaffe pilots that the Americans break first in a head-on pass. They will then have a psychological advantage of knowing beforehand what we will do.'
A young pilot in the front row asked what would happen if the German pilot followed the same orders. Blakeslee looked down at the young man with a contemptuous smile and said, 'In that case you've earned your flight pay the hard way!'"
So there you have it. For all Blakeslee's accolades, Squadron Commander of an Eagle Squadron, 4th FG CO, double-ace, more combat flying hours (1000) than any other American, flew Spitfires, P-47s, and P-51s, etc. we really see that he is just a 'dweeb' of the highest magnitude. He not only practiced, he preached.
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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
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If you HO people, you can't do an early turn. Personaly people coming guns screaming right on me are doing three things:
- miss me.
- see me in their 6 when they are only half of their turn/loop, wondering how I got there .
- say I cheated/overmodelled while they are blowing up.
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Olivier "Frenchy" Raunier
(http://home.cfl.rr.com/rauns/brb.gif)
SFRT Aces High web page http://home.cfl.rr.com/rauns/menu.htm (http://home.cfl.rr.com/rauns/menu.htm)
[This message has been edited by SFRT - Frenchy (edited 08-08-2000).]
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Scale down the gun lethality, and suddenly HOs aren't as valuable.
In WW2 a P-47 came home with 20 x 20 mm hits, and a Luftwaffe pilot told me he once landed his Me 109 with 82 holes in it from USAAF .50 cal. Neither of those can happen here. Either the vets are fibbing or the guns in AH are a little strong.
HO and other tactics that depend on very few hits doing a lot of damage become dramatically less valuable if lethality is scaled back. I hope HTC takes a look at this.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 08-08-2000).]
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Originally posted by Pyro:
From James Howard's book, Roar of the Tiger:
"Blakeslee hesitated for emphasis and then said, 'We never turn away from a head-on attack.
That is close to what I read from one for the russian aces memores. He wrote that flying HO was quite safe due to it was very hard to hit anything in HO aproach (unlike in AH) UNLESS both refused to turn which resulted in collisions. Also he wrote that the one who turned first had less chances to survive. So they were instructed to avoid HO's, but if they are forced into it to fly straight and do not turn away. Considering that "taran" was the thing USSR propogandists praised very much it was honer to die ramming enemy, so they very few in his squad who ever turned, so it was several collisions in HO's.
I read that book like 15 years ago, and do not have it now, but I remember that quite clear because I imagined what it taked to fly straight.
Fariz
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Funked,
Correct me if I'm off here...
I've seen alot off complainin' that the guns are scaled back in WB, and they'd like to see them pushed back up to 100%. Even a thread suggesting an entire arena set to 100% gun lethality.
Is it your feeling that guns in WB are scaled back too far, and that the guns in AH are in fact well OVER 100% lethality?
Just curious...
I'd be loathe to support the artificial tweakin' of anything to discourage what any player can in fact AVOID if they choose.
But if some people just can't seem to avoid HO's, I strongly sugest they hunt down a trainer and spend a 1/2 with him in the TA to get help with this. That's about the best 'fix' for this I can come up with.
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I don't know Nash.
I think the WB guns model is screwed up mostly because it doesn't model all the bullets (except for a few heavy guns like 37mm and MK 108).
Your rate of fire AND ammo load are half of what they should be.
Rate of fire affects hit probability, so WB probably fudges the bullet diameter to make a hit more probable.
And ammo load means destructive power, so they probably fudge the kinetic or explosive energy in each bullet to make it do as much damage as two.
The problem is that this is not a linear problem. You can't just scale the bullets up and lower the rate of fire, and expect to get the same results as a real gun shooting at a real plane. So WB lethality will always be "wrong" because they are trying to make one bullet act like two bullets, both in probability of hits, and in amount of damage done. This means they have no choice but to use artificial methods for determing lethality.
However AH (according to Pyro) models all the bullets. So I think it is fair to expect damage from AH bullets to be similar to that done by bullets in the war. I'm not sure this is the case. But I am using anectdotal evidence here, which is highly variable and subject to selective memory. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 08-08-2000).]
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 08-08-2000).]
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SFRT - Frenchy
Lead turns are excellent BFM. No doubt about that.
But here's the thing about a lead turn. It is only successful because of two reasons. One, the adversary never saw you in the first place...or, two, he let you.
An adversary who still has the energy to maneuver should be able to deny you the lead turn by turning into you to take away your lateral separation.
This brings to mind a technique mentioned in these threads. One reader advocates descending below the attacker...while this may spoil the attacker's aim, it also presents the attacker with an outstanding opportunity to lead turn the target in the vertical.
I think Blakeslee had it right.
Andy
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Andy, usually it happened like this:
You go HO and you start your early turn, while the other guy stills flies straight toward you trying to shoot you down on the short seconds you expose your belly.
Because you started to turn a bit earlier, you beat him at the top of the loop, and it's your turn to have a couple of seconds to shoot at him.
I don't know if you understand what I try to say, but trust me hehehe (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
off course, if u start it too late u in a HO, if u start it too early the other guy is in ur 6 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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oups and for my 2 cents about HO, even flying the P47 I usually avoid them, but sometimes, when 1 or several bad guys engage me from higher when I'm slow, HO is the best way to survive even if it's a 50/50 chance of survival (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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Hm, I have several ways of handing HO's.
The most risky, but also rewarding; a barrel roll as the badnit opens up. The bandit passes, and you're free to do whatever you want. Very rewarding (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif). Saw showed me this trick, and I was amazed by his audacity.
A quick dive as the enemy gets within close range, followed by a very quick jink to the left or right. The loss of potential energy is neglible, and can be picked up in a zoom climb.
If I see a HO develop, and have time for it, I sometimes turn a little right or left, and put the bandit at my 10 or 2 o clock position. I avoid turning to the last second, and let the bandit do the e bleeding turns for as far as possible. As he or she approaches, I roll into and over/under, and continue to extend or zoom after the bandit has passed.
However, sometimes, avoiding the HO means giving up position or an edge.
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime
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SFRT - Frenchy
Let me make sure I understand you.
You and your adversary are merging head on. Prior to the merge, you initiate a lead turn by pulling up into a looping maneuver (Immelmann??). Is this right?
My God. I'm glad that this is just a game. Not that you would...but please don't try this in RL.
Andy
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yes Handy but not as simple as this.
Depending on closing speed I usually start around 800y, with an initial turn to on side just to throw me off the eni plain 12 then I spiral to the over side in a climb. (now I gave up my tactic, I'm a dead man hehehe)
No audacity/risk, no reward. And it works in RL too, as eni usually can't stabilize is shooting solution on you and it's also 'disorientating'.
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StSanta
I must admit that the first time I saw the rolling defense, I was somewhat taken aback! And I did fly straight thru as I watched him to see what this aero display was all about.
Then I read about this technique. It's OK, I guess, insofar as it spoiling a tracking solution. But...I would remind the readers that the person doing the roll is giving up the tally at a very critical time.
My advice to anyone seeing the roll done against him would be to consider an immediate lead turn with the lift vector on or slightly above/below the bandit depending on your energy state and lateral separation.
Andy
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SFRT - Frenchy
That's pretty amazing!
If I may ask..who are these RL opponents?
Andy
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Andy, I have the feeling that you are having fun of me (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
You must be a fighter pilot in RL to have so much self-confidence and being ironic about what I tried to share.
I was never in a real dogfight (yet) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) but I was for a very short time a trainee in the french Navy Squadron 51S at Rochefort and then I switched to the French Air Force where I was based at several Air Bases. I worked for a brief period of time at the CFAC (Combat Air Force Command) and gave daily classes about aircrafts/tactics to pilots and radar controllers.
That doesn't make me a fighter pilot or an expert in ACM, but those chattig with FAF veterans who lived thru the jet age were very instructive and fun. Since I'm here, I want to thank Col. xxxx who often took time to call me see the radar scope real time dogfights training and explain me what was going on with excitation. Hehehe he was fun, he was always explaining like if he was flying himself with hands gestures and a loud voice.
Andy, I have nothing to prove to you, I was just trying to explain my alternative to HO, and I feel you were just on the edge of free flaming (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) So now, go ahead, who are your RL opponents (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
[This message has been edited by SFRT - Frenchy (edited 08-09-2000).]
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"JUST SAY NO TO HO"
Sounds like soething cool to paint on the front shide of the canopy (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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SFRT - Frenchy
I'm not trying to flame you, embarrass you, or dull your enthusiasm. Your willingness to openly involve yourself in these discussions is one reason why this hobby is such a neat thing for everyone.
Here's my take on these forum discussions. Putting all the banter and good-natured joking aside, these topics mirror what the RL fighter pilot does...which is learn the tricks of the trade from others in BS sessions. It's that way today...and it was the same when I was a new guy. (for that matter, I'm still a new guy when it comes to on-line flying, and so I'm always looking for tips!)
But things today are also like it was back then...intermixed with the legitimate tactics and tips were the not-so-legitimate stories that flew in the face of established physics and BFM principles.
Every so often, a technique will be mentioned on these boards that seems to fit into that latter category. One is left to wonder if the writer really flys like that or if the technique was proposed more as an attempt to posture.
I also recognize that the writer may in fact be accurately describing a technique that has 'worked' for him. But if this technique is technically incorrect, then its success is more a factor of his opponent's lack of skill rather than its own superior merits.
Such it is with your description of an oblique pull up into an oncoming HO opponent. At the range you gave (~2400'), your opponent in the typical AH aircraft will have the turn performance to pull up inside your turn. By presenting your belly to him, you are inviting at least a snapshot that may evolve into a vertical rolling scissors...or at worst a bandit camped at your six with a tracking solution. Neither of these is exactly good.
Nor is it good that another reader of these posts will take your technique as gospel and then try to apply it to his flying. If his opponent is on the ball, that reader will get whacked...as it should be. The technique is more of an invitation to 'shoot me' than it is an example of a lead turn.
My background is posted on the Air Combat Corner page at www.simhq.com. (http://www.simhq.com.)
Andy
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funked i whole heartedly agree that gun lethallity should be reduced a little..this would prolong dogfights and after all thats what i enjoy most...all too often i fly for 10 minutes and get bounced,put up a good defence then a couple of hits and its back to the 10 minute flight (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
i think the harder it is to be shot down the longer the fights and the more fun. I think there should still be lethal zones eg pilot and parts of the engine as this is realistic and require great skill to actually aim for (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) but the airframe should be a little more rugged.Fly the p47 and you get a taste of what i mean.Ive been shot up in one lost engine oil,flaps,the odd elevator and all sorts and managed to straggle my way home and REALLY enjoying the rtb (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).Its a tough bird and it 'Feels' stronger.why not up all the models strengh by 20-30%.same'feel' longer fights (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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I think the balance is rather good as it is (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime
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There is one advantage against maneuvering against a plane going for a head-on shot that is present here but not in a real fight and that's lag. I can't believe I'm the only one who gets warm fuzzies as I'm halfway through an immelman looking staight back and seeing a guy still firing his head-on shot. He ends up losing a lot of angles at the merge by going for the shot. It's kind of like Andrew Jackson dueling, take the other guy's wild shot and then calmly make him pay.
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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
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I understand what you are trying to explain to me, butI don't understand why you say it doesn't work. The distance example I gave was arbitrary.
If I'm flying at high speed HO with someone who looks like flying at the same high speed. That I start a loop 2 sec before we pass each other HO, will I will not beat him at the top of the loop of 1-2 second?
I'm pretty bad to line up my HO on someone, but I'm pretty good at shooting on someone when I reach the top of the loop. And usually I can avoid the HO shooting from the other guy because at high speed is manoueverablility is not so hot.
We talking prop planes here, it doesn't really 100% obei to the dogfighting rules of modern jets I believe. The weight/thrust ratio allows a jet to do things and modify have a better control on your Energy state. (I would not do something like that in a jet, but with a prop I think it's ok, did you had the same experience in dogfighting with a prop plane, or did you most of the time used jets?).
BTW, Red Flag 95, France beat the hell out of USA. hihihi Go FAF Go! (sorry, Frenchy had to do it) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
[This message has been edited by SFRT - Frenchy (edited 08-09-2000).]
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Pyro beat me to it. I can't remember the last time I tried to avoid an HO and the other guy even pinged me.
Wait til he gets d900 or so, if he's coming straight in pull back on the stick, hard at first then gently til you're vertical, point the plane straight up (watch in your rear view at his spewing ammo (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)) til you reach about 150 IAS. Watching him the whole time, then pull more til your flying inverted, then do a 180 degree roll. Look Down. Spot him. Plan your attack, and kill him.
Works for me.
BTW, your description made sense to me frenchy. I respect you as a very good P47 pilot and take your opinion seriously.
I very much respect your experience in the military Andy, flying jets. I'm sure you know what you're talking about on the subject of real world BFM. you seem like a very intelligent fella.
But what is your experience in this simm? What is your handle BTW? Maybe we could wing up sometime. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by hblair (edited 08-09-2000).]
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Attached is a diagram showing this HO situation. The scale is based on a TAS of about 300KTAS, the radii represent a radial G of about 4.
At 300KTAS, the turn radius is about 2000'. Velocity is about 500fps.
If the bandit begins his pull at the ranges given in the previous posts (800-900 yards), then he is pulling up at a range greater than his (and the adversary's) turn radius.
If the adversary begins his pull immediately after seeing the other pull up, the situation in the diagram exists. If he does not, and instead flys straight through, then the bandit will indeed have an opportunity to roll out on the adversary's high six.
Imagine this turning plane in the horizontal instead of the vertical. Would you still maneuver like this? In a horizontal plane, does this look like a good idea? I don't think so...the orientation of the turning planes has nothing to do with the validity of the technique.
Now, let's talk about net lag. If this aspect of on-line flying can result in the adverary continuing straight ahead with the bandit still at his twelve o'clock when in fact the bandit has already pulled up into the vertical...then we no longer have a 'realistic' BFM environment. If both pilots are not 'seeing' the same thing, then how in the world can anyone represent this as 'BFM'?
Net lag may be a factor beyond our control. If this lag results in significant disparities in what opponents 'see', then these problem areas need to be clearly identified to all players. Not doing so invites an opportunity for an advantage being conferred that has not been earned.
SFRT - Frenchy
BFM is BFM, regardless of what you fly. Modern jets do have certain capabilities that WW2 fighters did not have...but this is irrelevant to our discussion.
Your 'arbitrary' choice of range is not insignificant. BFM is about performance numbers...for a given number, certain expectations can be assumed. Change the number, and expectations change.
You will only 'beat (your opponent) to the top' if you can exceed his turn rate, OR he turns late. In this situation, it does not make any sense for the adversary to continue straight through while letting you pull up behind him (unless, because of net lag, he doesn't see that you have pulled up.)
The bottom line here is that when someone posts specific numbers regarding BFM technique, then these numbers had better be verifiable. Turn performance is about true airspeed and radial G, period.
There are no 'Gee whiz, I wish you were dead' BFM maneuvers...lift vector control and energy management combined with timely decision making are the controlling variables.
Andy
(http://www.doitnow.com/~alfakilo/HO.jpg)
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hblair
My c/s is 'bg'. I don't do much on-line flying...when I do, it is usually in the training arena where I try to work on my use of the views. I'm hopeless in using the snap views!!
I'll look for you the next time I'm up...maybe you can help me out.
Andy
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Originally posted by hblair:
... if he's coming straight in pull back on the stick, hard at first then gently til you're vertical, point the plane straight up (watch in your rear view ...
And see him going in a fast, calmed and gentle climb.... Then see him hammering over you... and then see your wings 20 feet apart of your aircraft body.
The worst mistake of anybody when evading HO is just thinking the other is an absolute newbie.
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I have a couple of manuvers that I normally do for HO passes that nearly always works, and of course critiquing is always welcome if it's contstructive (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
First one is in a lower E state, or the guy attacking is fast : once d 2500 to 2000 normally the guy attacking me won't move off his course at this point. I pull up a little, and roll slightly left or right while doing so, and the attack pulls slightly to correct normally. At this point I turn slight and roll towards the attacker pointing my wing tip at him. If I time it right as he gets close I pull a sharp, low yoyo at first, and ease off the G's as I come around and he's past... alot of times guys flat turn after this and blow their E but other then that the manuver is only good for dodging a HO and not really gaining an advantage. Granted all I said has to been done within a matter of seconds due to closure rate.
One I use the most frequent is a barrel-roll like manuver, where I pull (normally up and to the left or right like before) out of the attacker's flight path for only a second, then quickly roll over and pull again, which normally places my just past his wing whenever I finish. It's hard to describe I guess but from the attacker's POV I lift just out of his gunsight before in range, and as he corrects his plane, mine appears to keep rolling (because of the directions switch) so when I pass his flight path again I'm already behind him, albeit in the opposite direction, and inverted. Quick roll upright and I've preserved most of my E and can choose whether to turn and engage or keep going and extend.
Skidding while in a low yoyo also seems to work well, but blows and energy ya have.
- Jig
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Never fear dweebs giving advice. This is normal in the world. When the true masters give advice, be very wary of what you have been told. -- Dweeb er I mean me.
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE:
And see him going in a fast, calmed and gentle climb.... Then see him hammering over you... and then see your wings 20 feet apart of your aircraft body.
The worst mistake of anybody when evading HO is just thinking the other is an absolute newbie.
I haven't been out immelmaned in an equal speed merge in at lesat 2 tours. I fly the 109G10. It is the king of merges.
In all honesty mandoble, 60% to 80% of the planes i meet in a level merge in the MA just run straight thru either with or without an HO shot.
There are only a handful of pony drivers ya gotta worry about, hang, WD, etc.
Most other planes just cnat make that long extended imellman.
The MA and the dueling ladder are two different animals. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Sounds like a plan to me andy. I look forward to meeting you. I'm usually in the TA for some period of time every night.
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Here is a simple solution to the HO situation. It will also solve quite a few other complaints regarding gunnery in AH.
1. Make max range of ALL guns 200 yards.
(Without the ability to shoot at long range there is little time to shoot in the HO merge. This means all cannon planes with convergence set way out there can't exploit it.)
2. Make ALL guns equal in lethality.
(This means there is no 50's vs cannon debate. If all guns are set to, say one 50 cal in lethality no one has an advantage on guns.)
3. Make all planes perform identically. (This means the result of the fight is TOTALLY the result of the winning pilot's skill.)
4. Ignore all of the above and just play the game.
Make your choice and ask that any or most of the above solutions be implemented.
Now if you thought any but #4 were serious..... you need help not available on this BBS! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
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(http://www.geocities.com/tas13th/sqsig/mav13.jpg)
No Mercy Asked, None Given, Just pass the ammo
[This message has been edited by Maverick (edited 08-10-2000).]
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jigster
If you objective is to spoil an adversary's gun tracking, you have some good ideas. Most of what you describe will tend to move you away from the other guy's gun line.
Now...about this 'low yo-yo'!! What you are describing does not sound like a low yo-yo maneuver...it sounds more like a bunt.
A Low Yo-Yo is a specific BFM maneuver designed to increase closure. It is not a defensive maneuver by any stretch of the imagination.
A 'bunt', on the other hand, is any unloaded maneuver...often used to gain airspeed (but only works in a sim when gravity is modeled correctly)...but it could describe any maneuver where the stick is pushed forward into something less than one G flight.
If you bunt while cross controlling with excess rudder, it is possible to get a flight path that tends to move down and away from an opponent's gun line.
Andy
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Originally posted by hblair:
In all honesty mandoble, 60% to 80% of the planes i meet in a level merge in the MA just run straight thru either with or without an HO shot.
My problem is that I'm so used to fight against veteran pilots (mainly WB H/H) that I cant think that 80% of the actual MA pilots will fail to follow the first two steps after winning a HO (that is, the other evades with violent movemets). In fact, you are right, only a bunch of pilots know very well how to kill you if you attempt to "evade" the HO. But there is a BIG TRUE: In a Veteran vs Veteran (same plane) duel with no cold first pass, the first that attemps to evade will be killed in matter of seconds. Any, just any, unnecessary movement of the stick is a sure dead.
IMO, in a HO, if you think the other is an unexperienced pilot, ok, try to evade. Else, better be confident that tbe other is an honorable one and wont shoot at the pass, or be ready to dead if you try to evade.
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE:
Else, better be confident that tbe other is an honorable one and wont shoot at the pass, or be ready to dead if you try to evade.
<Looks over to Andy.> (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 08-10-2000).]
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Originally posted by Andy Bush:
jigster
If you objective is to spoil an adversary's gun tracking, you have some good ideas. Most of what you describe will tend to move you away from the other guy's gun line.
Now...about this 'low yo-yo'!! What you are describing does not sound like a low yo-yo maneuver...it sounds more like a bunt.
A Low Yo-Yo is a specific BFM maneuver designed to increase closure. It is not a defensive maneuver by any stretch of the imagination.
A 'bunt', on the other hand, is any unloaded maneuver...often used to gain airspeed (but only works in a sim when gravity is modeled correctly)...but it could describe any maneuver where the stick is pushed forward into something less than one G flight.
If you bunt while cross controlling with excess rudder, it is possible to get a flight path that tends to move down and away from an opponent's gun line.
Andy
My fault, bad description.
I kinda do it by feel, I need to do it alot more to accurately describe it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Lemme try again...
After pulling up and away out of the attacker's flight line (up about 30 degrees or more, and roll between 60 or 30 degrees left or right) and gaining slight seperation I normally roll close to 180 degrees and pull hard which puts me in either a low yoyo, or a Split S depending on bank. The manuver can be modified easily by how long I pull. If I stop when I cross his flight path I can gain seperation in the other direction (and of course rolling upright), whereas if I continue the manuver I end up behind him with most of the energy preserved, (I lay off the G's when I cross his flight path if I don't see him turn) in normally what is a good offensive position.
Now I have used bunts before, by rolling inverted before he gets into gun range, and pushing forward, out of the attacker's flight path. Again this is normally with a little roll to further screwing up the tracking solution. Then a sharp down ward pull in a very steep yoyo, and more times then not, a Split S.
If I know I won't have the speed to catch the guy after the merge, I try to take it vertical while screwing his tracking, so I can dive on him after we pass.
So... basically I try to manuver in such a way that it's like we passed each other as if we were both going to make a HO pass, but without exposing myself to his guns, and if it works right I should be in position to go from defensive to offensive mode.
that better?
- Jig
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Pyro said: "I can't believe I'm the only one who gets warm fuzzies as I'm halfway through an immelman looking staight back and seeing a guy still firing his head-on shot."
I don't just get the warm fuzzies, I usually get a kill. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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You know, I think I'm beginning to understand what folks are trying to say (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
which, apparently, is that any move that changes you from a target to a threat is a DWEEB move and should not be attempted (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
In doing my research on dweeb moves, I've discovered that, historically, I'm not qualified to be a Dweeb, eg; Molders,Blakeslee,Thatch (thatch weave,or how to force the HO)
I feel that given the combat situation in the MA, one should not be surprised by any move one makes while trying to win.
Of Course, if you want to remove the flagrent use of the long range deliberate HO, simple, turn off that range counter in the icons, that little bit of data is critical in setting up deliberate HO's,high deflection passes,etc, etc, disable that lead computing icon and see how far down the scale the "Dweeb" moves go.
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pzvg- "5 years and I still can't shoot"
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Jigster\
You've got some good moves here! Your BFM terminology is a little off...let me help you out.
To start with, we need to understand that a BFM maneuver is described with reference to the bandit...not the horizon. So, when we talk about a Low Yo-Yo, the 'low' is in reference to the bandit's flight path...not where the ground is. A Low Yo-Yo could be flown in any direction...up, down...inverted, right side up, etc.
In your first maneuver, let's delete the term 'low yo-yo'...and replace it with the term 'slice'.
The maneuver you describe is an excellent bid for turning room in the vertical, followed by a slice that takes full advantage of Radial G to complete the turn in the least time. Good job!! Let's look at each part.
>>After pulling up and away out of the attacker's flight line (up about 30 degrees or more, and roll between 60 or 30 degrees left or right) and gaining slight seperation<<
Thsi is your bid for turning room. You could go in any direction...you chose to go 'up'. ('up' in this sense is with reference to the ground.) This is particulary good if you have a little more speed than you need...you can use the short climb to bleed that speed as you get separation 'above' the oncoming bandit.
Once you have your nose commited 'up', you can unload and roll to keep the bandit in sight as you orient your lift vector for the upcoming pull 'down'.
>>I normally roll close to 180 degrees and pull hard which puts me in either a low yoyo, or a Split S depending on bank.<<
Split S...yes! Yo-Yo...no! A Low Yo-Yo is a form of acceleration maneuver used against a turning bandit when you do not have the ability to speed up and catch him...so you use a descending cut-off (with reference to the bandit's plane of turn) followed by a climb back up to the bandit's flight path. The cut-off and the descent provide the additional closure needed...so the Low Yo-Yo is used to catch up to a bandit (acceleration maneuver)...not to change direction (turning maneuver).
Here, I think you are using the term 'yo-yo' to mean 'descending turn that is on an oblique angle relative to the horizon'. The correct term for this is 'slice'.
Once you have gained the needed separation in your 'pull up', you roll to orient your lift vector back in the direction of the bandit (whom we presume is still flying straight ahead, fat, dumb, and happy...not a good assumption, but that's another story!!). If you orient your lift vector straight down, using the ground as a reference, then your next maneuver will resemble a Split S. If you orient your lift vector on an angle less than straight down, you will perform a 'slice'. The major difference between the two is the amount of altitude lost in the turn back.
>>I end up behind him with most of the energy preserved...in normally what is a good offensive position.<<
The reason for your advantageous energy state is that you have used gravity to increase your Radial G (min turn radius, max turn rate) while minimizing airspeed loss.
>>Now I have used bunts before, by rolling inverted before he gets into gun range, and pushing forward...<<
For a HO situation, I see little value in doing this. If you want flight path displacement in the shortest time, use positive G. While you may be able to keep the bandit in sight while doing this negative G bunt, the sim's AI should red you out very quickly.
OK!! So much for the academics. You have the right moves...you just needed a little polish on your terminology!
Andy
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Hey, the man is right.
I HO becuase I Suck
It evens the playing field against those with better E, planes, or better skill.
Am I a dweeb? No, I just suck.
There you go (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)