Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: MAJ KONIG on August 18, 2003, 01:14:35 AM
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What is going on? I was in a 190 last night, zoom'd an enemy field when a P38 passed me turned around and caught my 190. This is total crap and he caught me in like 3 secs, closed on me like he was a 262. Something is definately wrong because this isn't the first time it has happened. Oh, and BTW he didn't come from superior alt and made a flat turn at that! Then this same guy comes at me in a A6M that just left the field I was in a P38 at 4K above him and he climbed up and shot my P38 how can this happen. I thought maybe this game was better than WB because noone cheats but maybe Iam wrong.
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record a film and send it to htc if you suspect someone is a cheat.
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Ditto.
I can think of at least four or five 'methods' of how what you described can be done. Especially a timely low-yoyo and a good snap-shot.
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Lag, and not paying attention.
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The lead turn is not your friend.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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u changing to often from plane type.
don't build to much on what u think a plane should do
never think its gonna be easy
:)
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I find it kind of funny when one person thinks just because he might be fast that there is no way the other guy on his six could be just as fast if not faster. Did you stop to think that maybe the P-38 had just leveled out from a dive and had a huge amount of E to burn and that's how he caught up to you to finish you off with a lead turn?
I'm sorry to say but there is no way a Zero/Zeke could take off from a field and immediately zoom up to you and shoot you down like you described. More than likely you had your eyes inside the cockpit and not looking around and didn't see the guy take a few minutes to climb up to you until he shot you down or you weren't at 4,000ft like you thought.
The problem I see here is not of someone cheating but of someone that doesn't have a very good grasp of situation awareness.
Instead of blaming someone else for cheating maybe you should seek ways to improve your SA so you don't get yourself into those situations. 99.99999999% of the time, the one who cries "Cheater" is just someone that got outflown and outfought.
Ack-Ack
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Well, I could take some responsiblity that maybe I wasn't paying attention ecept that I observed the P38 before I started my run he was approximately 2K above the town and approximately d3.8 from me I was at full speed when I went into the dive, I did not turn, when I leveled out my dive over the field the P38 tried a angled HO on me but was way outta position and flew past me. I watched him the whole time. He conducted a flat turn came around on my six and killed me. Now I normally wouldn't have a problem except that my 190 was going approximately 450 MPH and I just hit WEP to get outta there. Now from my flying experience when you conduct a flat turn you bleed off your "E". So, how can a P38 who just bleed off some "E" turn and catch a 190 with a full head of steam. I just don't see it Now, at least we can agree ACK ACK that an A6M should not be able to climb up to a leveled out P38 and kill it. Which is why I posted it. It shouldn't happen. Maybe we can assume that there was another A6M except that I had a squaddie with me who confirmed that there was only one. Now don't get me wrong I am not saying someone is cheating there's probly a perfect explaination for it. Maybe I was lagging dought it though considering Iam running between 70 to 80 frame rate. So, maybe someone was testing a new beta version of the A6M, you've heard of it the A6M109G10 for AH2. Anyway, who cares I feel better just posting about it and thats all that matters to me :)
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what was your ping in ms then?
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I don't exactly remember Ben but what I've been running lately has been anywhere from 70 to 93 at the highest.
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Well, regardless of anything else, there isn't a single plane in AH that is faster than a bullet.
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I cant tell you how many times I have seen that happen. Flying along lvl at 300mph. Have somebody dive down pass below me. Pull a big immelman. Where he extends 2 3k above me. As I watch the distance click off like 1.0 1.7 3.0 4.0. Then he puts his nose down and catches me like I am standing still. Now if I was turning or something I could understand it. But I am straight lvl doing 300 the enmy pulls this big manouver blowing all his E the catches me like hes jet powered. I cant say anyone is cheating but is this is some trick move I sure would like to learn it.
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Icemaw, an airplane that is climbing is not "blowing" E. E is not only speed.
There is potential energy and kinetic energy, by climbing you are traiding your kinetic for potential.
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Yes I know but we passed HO the bog dove under me. I kept flying in a straight line. He pulled up blowing all his speed converting his E then caught me while all the time I have been motoring away at 300mph.
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wouldn't there still be a lose of E? Maybe not a big dramatic one?I don't think the exchange rate between the two are equal enough to add up to whats being experienced in the arena. Which could be fixed with a little perameter adjustment. One reason I say that because I don't see it happening with every plane just a few certian types regardless who the pilot is.
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ok, here's the energy deal, kinetic energy is the energy of motion. It depends on the mass and velocity of the object. Changing the velocity of the object will have a great effect on the energy.
there are 2 types of potential energy, elastic and gravitational. Since airplanes cant stretch elastic is out leaving us gravitational. Gravitational energy depends on weight and height.
so, here's the formula's:
Kinetic energy = mass x velocity(squared) divided by 2= KE
Gravitational potential energy= weight x height = GPE
Now, looking at these formulas there is no way a plane that converts kenetic energy into gravitational potential energy then agian converts to kenetic energy catch a plane in steady kenetic energy status. Now there is one variable to this and that is the speed of the two planes. The plane that conducts this move must be moving at an average of 150 mph faster than the steady kinetic plane. Also if the loop is started far in advance of the plane than it is reasonable that the looping plane will come down with a potential kill shot from above. BUT, if the planes passes one another as in a head on, then there is no way a plane should be able to loop converting his E twice catch up and kill the other plane. Does that make sence to anyone?
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I was not commenting on the situation you described, as much as on a misconception with regards to what E is.
...but could you imagine a scenario where a non-manuevering 300 mph con (A) is passed by a 450 mph con (B) who pulls a low g immelman that tops out 2,000 feet above A on the same heading as A and with an airspeed of 290.
Would it then be possible for B to nose down and real in A?
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It could furious if the plane started the loop before he passed the plane traveling at 300 mph. but ya gotta remember the acceleration factor involved. Most planes with a fast acceleration usually didn't have a real high top end speed.
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Originally posted by Furious
I was not commenting on the situation you described, as much as on a misconception with regards to what E is.
...but could you imagine a scenario where a non-manuevering 300 mph con (A) is passed by a 450 mph con (B) who pulls a low g immelman that tops out 2,000 feet above A on the same heading as A and with an airspeed of 290.
Would it then be possible for B to nose down and real in A?
Yes it would. How ever from a distance of 4.0 I find it hard to fathom. Like I said I am not saying anyone is cheating. But if its some trick move I would like to know the secret. Its not like the bog slowly pulls me in I am talking about warp power scotty. From the moment he tops out on his immel the dist starts closing.
As far as pulling a low g immel starting at 450 and ending out at 290 I will have to try that.
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Here is a film of a P28 starting out at 400-425 and reversing in an energy preservation climb and reversal, comming out doin 375-380. This is why judging your enemy E state is so critical...if he has more than you....direction can be meaningless.
www.combathanger.com/p38zoom.ahf (http://www.combathanger.com/p38zoom.ahf)
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Originally posted by icemaw
Yes I know but we passed HO the bog dove under me. I kept flying in a straight line. He pulled up blowing all his speed converting his E then caught me while all the time I have been motoring away at 300mph.
He probably did what I do in situations like that. When I start my dive, I "unload" my aircraft to quickly accelerate in a dive. Before I know it, I'm reaching close to 400mph IAS in the dive and when I'm leveling out, my speed is close to 475mph IAS. Easily enough speed to catch almost anything running from me with a prop at high speed. What I mean by "unloading" is pushing your nose down until you're doing 0 G's and holding it there to quickly accelerate.
ack-ack
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It would be a good idea to watch that film that Alf posted. If you watch it, you'll see that when the P-38 went over the top of the Immelman, he was doing close to 250mph. Then watch the G meter as he starts his dive. You'll see him unload his airplane by doing a negative G dive and quickly accelerate. When you watch the film and look at the G meter when he starts his dive, pay attention to the speed meter in the right side of the screen and watch it quickly increase as he unloads the P-38.
ack-ack
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Thats interesting I dunno if i agree with it though considering the P38 weights 17500 lbs and has a -3.5 G rating. I would tend to believe that 250 mph at the top would be a tough goal for a 17500 lb airplane. I am going to have to look more into this I can see how the P38 can turn so well especially at higher speeds but, some of these other moves I am going to spend some time to look at.
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"I would tend to believe that 250 mph at the top would be a tough goal for a 17500 lb airplane"
Using that kind logic, then only pigs would fly.
A little voice is speaking to me....it's saying....
Thrust.... thrust.... thrust.... thrust......
thrust vs weight ratio
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Sounds like you are familiar with the models of different flight sims. Ive been in here nearly2 years and have yet to see a bonafide cheat.
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Pretty simple, If the P-38 timed his turn correctly he could be on your 6 for several seconds at a lower speed (enough to kill a 190).
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ok, here's the situation you have two planes that head on each other. Both planes are traveling at 300 mph. For every secound that that goes by before the loop is made the planes are distancing themselves by 26400 feet per secound(or 5 miles) say the looping plane is a P38 and lets say it takes him 3 secounds to complete the move putting him roughly at 79200 feet(or 15 miles) behind the plane, after the loop he's able to obtain top speed for the P38 (460 mph) the P38 will only be able to gain 234.6 feet a secound. Now if the P38 can sustain top speed it will take 337.5 secounds (roughly 5.6 minutes) to catch the 300 mph airplane. This configuration is giving the P38 the best possible situation. Now, I know this real world formula doesn't pertain to AH because we've all seen the looping plane to almost imediately engage the passing airplane. So, what Iam saying is that I don't think anyone is cheating but, I think the game perameters on certian planes are pooched and I have noticed that some people's connections are so bad that contributes to these problems.
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Originally posted by MAJ KONIG
ok, here's the situation you have two planes that head on each other. Both planes are traveling at 300 mph. For every secound that that goes by before the loop is made the planes are distancing themselves by 26400 feet per secound(or 5 miles) say the looping plane is a P38 and lets say it takes him 3 secounds to complete the move putting him roughly at 79200 feet(or 15 miles) behind the plane, after the loop he's able to obtain top speed for the P38 (460 mph) the P38 will only be able to gain 234.6 feet a secound. Now if the P38 can sustain top speed it will take 337.5 secounds (roughly 5.6 minutes) to catch the 300 mph airplane. This configuration is giving the P38 the best possible situation. Now, I know this real world formula doesn't pertain to AH because we've all seen the looping plane to almost imediately engage the passing airplane. So, what Iam saying is that I don't think anyone is cheating but, I think the game perameters on certian planes are pooched and I have noticed that some people's connections are so bad that contributes to these problems.
Dude - check yer math... :D
300 mph = 440 feet/sec.....
both planes on a direct headon is 600 mph closure or 880 ft/sec.
planes will distance themselves at 880 ft/sec not 26400 ft/sec
If 26400 were correct, the closure would be 18,000 mph or 9000 mph per a/c
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You're forgetting to factor in how many G's the P-38 pulled in the loop.
Too many newbies... pull until they black out. Blowing E!
I kill people all the time that fly "better" planes than I do... I let them turn to me and blow all their E in high G's maneuvers and they can't understand why I fly circles around them.
When in a foot race. There's an energy conversion which occurs by diving and then climbing. Someone else can explain it better - there are charts. It's a physical principle which I know about and have used... but I can't explain it.
Flying flat and level in a foot race will get you killed - period.
Even if you think you have the fastest plane, even if you start out with more E - yah someone who is diving and then climbing... will catch you.
P-38's are good at this energy conversion technique. Better than Dora's.
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Thank you Modas, I forgot to divid by 60 (for secounds) all these damn interuptions here at work, don't these people realize I have a hobby :). I agree on the yo-yo effect as long as you dont ever drop below the constant flight speed and if altitude isn't too great. Well this has been a great topic for discussion but I am beginiing to think that this dead horse is startin' to smell.
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Icemaw:
Somebody who is doing a low G climing turn is actually adding E not blowing it.
Konig:
Just start filming all the time. The next time you see something suspicious, study the film and if what is happening does not seem obvious to you then post the film here.
Hooligan
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I think the critical thing on the apparant HO > flat turn kill is lag.
If when looking back you see him square to you at minus 300/400 then he did not cross the merge as you saw him.
from his perspective he had executed a flat lead turn prior merge to gain guns on whlist you pull away.
This would have sapped his e.......... he has one shot.
Low e loss or even e gain flat turns are forced to be lag turns when the merge was apparantly HO.............. or else you would see the lead turn start before merge.
High speed immelmans can be very effective in AH IMO particularly in e efficient loopers like Spits which also have subsequent good handling at 500 plus in the dive out.
These can also be lead orientated when the player thru lag sees a HO merge.
AH's dive acceleration between the max level flight speed and compression speed exhibits very little drag in comparison to AW IMO. So if you dive with a good lead angle you will nearly always catch up. (hint configure your three quarter forward down view for just this)
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we can make this easy..just tell us who shot you down..
i can tell u if he cheats..
heheheh
Love
BiGB
xoxo
yes..i film every figth....only way to have something to stand on...
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I've seen it... not calling it a cheat but there's "a way" to do described things in a 38 that defy physics. I'll stick with calling it a flight model glitch (exploitable), but it is there, no doubt about that... and it is wrong.
Cheerleaders may now continue
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Originally posted by MAJ KONIG
What is going on? I was in a 190 last night, zoom'd an enemy field when a P38 passed me turned around and caught my 190. This is total crap and he caught me in like 3 secs, closed on me like he was a 262. Something is definately wrong because this isn't the first time it has happened. Oh, and BTW he didn't come from superior alt and made a flat turn at that! Then this same guy comes at me in a A6M that just left the field I was in a P38 at 4K above him and he climbed up and shot my P38 how can this happen. I thought maybe this game was better than WB because noone cheats but maybe Iam wrong.
majkonig, sounds to me like you were perhaps flying too slow. The 190s accelerate very slowly to begin with unless your in a D9. A zero light on fuel could easily climb up to 4k and have enough E to fight you. I dont know, wasnt there so just a guess but thats what it sounds like to me. If he made 4k and got to you, your going to slow.
EDIT: >450 MPH in 190
After reading entire thread, if thats the case and you arent mistaken then he musta made a lead turn on you. Thats the only way. If you kept flying straight thinking he would not catch you, sometimes thats enough leverage for him to make that lead turn and catch you. You could angle him off to the front quarter and after passing turn mildly into him. Of course this forces him to turn tighter. Got to post turn his lead turn or force him to reverse turn (make him bleed his E). He could be at optimum corner velocity when you merge.
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I recently did reversal speed tests. this i did by flying at level speed to 400 mph then executing a slight nose down flat(ish) turn pulling or at least trying to pull a steady G ( i think i used 2.5 or 3 G) almost Every aircraft performed similarly. I found no difference or at least very little between high wing loaded aircraft or low wingloaded. The point was that i kept within the high speed stall limits and as a result lost little speed in ANY aircraft.
(add here the old turn speed/turn rate debate :))
Had i jammed the stick back in a jerking movement and 'mushed' the aircraft, (i.e. turn so tight the airflow over the wings is disturbed thus losing lift and producing more drag) then the results would be much more AIRCRAFT MODEL specific. Then the acceleration after the stall would be of greater importance rather than the ability to hold speed through a non-stalled reversal.
One thing you should realise is if an aircraft passes your front quarter at a level atittude he could be travelling at 200 or 600 and you will find it hard to judge it perfectly. Lets say for arguements sake they are at 500mph and you are at 300mph.If they execute high G flat reversal/slightly nose down to help keep speed they may lose 50 mph(if they are good it can be less!) but they will end up at your 6 oclock with a 150mph speed advantage.
If your aircraft was to perform the same reversal at 300mph you too would lose some speed but you would STILL be up to 200 mph slower than the other aircraft.
To one it appears the other has reversed with no loss of energy, to the other it is completely different. You have to watch them as they come out of the reversal IN ORDER to guess their E state. Its incredibly difficult to judge it BEFORE he exits (unless of course yo KNOW their speed which i assume you dont in the situation mentioned )
Having said that if you were in a 190a5 at maximum speed, then dive with wep and then extend and you are at absolute maximum speed (i.e. your aircraft is shaking) then its HIGHLY UNLIKELY that any aircraft could pass you in the opersite direction and reverse and then gain on you WITHOUT having an initial high speed dive to put him at HIS maximum speed.
The 190 is no slouch BUT it does lose speed and energy quickly. Performing rolls etc to avoid flack DOES slow you down quickly yet it 'FEELS' as though you are losing little. Are you sure you knew all the paremeters of this fight? are you sure the p38 wasnt just out of a high speed dive? have you tested and managed to remember how the many different types of aircraft behave in the manouver you described(and have you done it recently)? are you sure you didnt bleed off more E than you thought? if you are sure then you could have something but if you arent sure I'd put it down to experience and be aware things can fool you into thinking you have it all correct when you dont.A film is the only real way to prove things one way or the other.
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Originally posted by Tumor
I've seen it... not calling it a cheat but there's "a way" to do described things in a 38 that defy physics. I'll stick with calling it a flight model glitch (exploitable), but it is there, no doubt about that... and it is wrong.
Cheerleaders may now continue
so theres a known error in the flight model but you choose not to reveal it. Why I wonder?
you either dont want realism and would rather just win by exploiting a bug or
you like realism, dont use the bug to your advantage but know of others who do and you dont want to spoil their fun by documenting it here.
either way i think it verges on cheating either by you or the others. Personally if something was unrealistic I'd rather see it corrected as i dont like any form of competition where the choice is either play by the rules and be at a disadvantage OR cheat with the rest in order to have a chance to win.
btw just out of interest I know its off topic a bit but do you consider that using drugs is the same as cheating, in athletics, or do you think it should be up to the competitor? and do you want non drug-taking athletes to be forced to take drugs in order to compete with those that do and dont get caught?
Its all the same thing. If you know of a cheat being used TELL HTC. :D
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Originally posted by Tumor
I've seen it... not calling it a cheat but there's "a way" to do described things in a 38 that defy physics. I'll stick with calling it a flight model glitch (exploitable), but it is there, no doubt about that... and it is wrong.
Cheerleaders may now continue
Like what?
ack-ack
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Got me stumped too, Tumor.
What is it?
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I know of an "exploit" in AH. I'm quite sure HTC know of it, but unfortunately it very difficult if at all possible to do something about. Almost every online game is subject to this exploit. Without going into details it creates the "warp on command", "warp to six" and "flying through terrain" phenomena. Only way I can think of dealing with this is to film and report suspect behaviour to HTC. With the player base getting younger, more computer literate and with a "game mindset" rather than flightsim/WWII enthusiast, I fear we will see more of this.
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To bad we can't stop kids below 14/15 yo from playing (not 13, they get cocky because they got their first hair on their dick.)
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Ok Tumor......you started it.....what is the "glitch":confused:
Anxiously awaiting your response..........:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by GScholz
I know of an "exploit" in AH. I'm quite sure HTC know of it, but unfortunately it very difficult if at all possible to do something about. Almost every online game is subject to this exploit. Without going into details it creates the "warp on command", "warp to six" and "flying through terrain" phenomena. Only way I can think of dealing with this is to film and report suspect behaviour to HTC. With the player base getting younger, more computer literate and with a "game mindset" rather than flightsim/WWII enthusiast, I fear we will see more of this.
I'm starting to see more and more of this lately. There must be a way to detect it but I wouldn't know, I only put the hardware together, not into much more then basic scripts and such.
MAJ KONIG: I've had the same thing you described involving the 38 happen only with a mossie, who caught my D9 after a HO pass. I pulled up after we passed and he got me before I slowed to 325 to start my turn. Mossie had just completed a turn back to my position so his speed couldn't have been very high. How did he turn and climb up to me?? I wish I knew!
Just keep the film running and grab another plane, they're already paid for, not much more you can do.
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ok, I understand that a squaddie of mine filmed some clown doing this "warp to six" glitch, he then gave it to HTC and need less to say that guy doesn't have an account anymore. Please dont ask for names cuz I cant remember and I dont want to give the 90 questions bit to a fellow squaddie. The point is that people out there are cheating and theres a way to do it, but I guess the best course is to film all this going on and turn over what you film over to the man in charge.
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Originally posted by Twist
I'm starting to see more and more of this lately. There must be a way to detect it but I wouldn't know, I only put the hardware together, not into much more then basic scripts and such.
MAJ KONIG: I've had the same thing you described involving the 38 happen only with a mossie, who caught my D9 after a HO pass. I pulled up after we passed and he got me before I slowed to 325 to start my turn. Mossie had just completed a turn back to my position so his speed couldn't have been very high. How did he turn and climb up to me?? I wish I knew!
Just keep the film running and grab another plane, they're already paid for, not much more you can do.
It sounds more like not knowing the capabilities of various aircraft opposed to the one you're flying. Since you're assuming his speed couldn't have been very high, you really didn't know what his E state was to begin with. It is very easy to maintain E through a turn and that's probably what the Mossie pilot did.
I guess it's just easier to call out cheater or other such nonsense than to fix the blame on yourself for what basically amounts to a break down in SA.
ack-ack