Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: beet1e on August 18, 2003, 10:06:08 AM
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I’m hoping that this thread won’t turn into a self-fulfilling prophecy. :(
I switched to Rook a while ago, just to meet some new faces. What I have learned from it only reaffirms what I already knew about the AH1 version of the game. The end result, whether that be a battle to win a field or the war itself, comes down to one thing, and one thing only – numbers. I decided to stick with the “weaker” team, certainly weaker in terms of numerical strength during Euro hours, so that I could see what went on from the weaker side’s point of view. Plays havoc with k/d (lazs please note!), but someone had to do it. We were down to one field, and a CV. I decided to work with delphi44 and try to keep the CV for as long as we could.
A lost cause. We faced a wall of Bish TBMs – actually more like a chainsaw as they kept re-upping over and over, plus a divebombing LANC formation. All credit to the ship gunners – the LANCs went down, the carrier stayed up. But here comes another wave – heavy fighters and more TBMs. Much of the time it was 9v2. Hehe – I was waiting for some smart alec to tell us to come out of the ack to fight the 9 planes that had 5-10K alt advantage – lol. We concentrated on the TBMs and LANCs, and let the fighters die by following us into the ack. I had 3 kills credited to me without firing a single shot!
Eventually, the inevitable happened. The carrier went down, game over. And just then, the knits won the war at A3!
I don’t care for the repeat pork-n-auger suicide & re-uppage game, and that’s the primary reason I look forward to AH2. That, plus evenly matched planesets in missions, ie not F6F v Yak-9U, Spit1a v 109F4 or some other such mismatch.
But I’m beginning to wonder whether it will succeed. So many people have adopted the numerical supremacy smashdown, brute force, suicide fuel pork, LANC divebomb the CV and auger routine as a gameplay culture – and seem to enjoy it – that I wonder how many will actually have the patience/interest to spend time at AH2 TOD...
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I agree with you on this. Im glad that AH2 is going to be more realistic.... I guess thats the word for it, I dont know. Anyway keep on flying guys....
-=SDoyle=-
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Not having been in the game long all I can say is I think TOD will be about as popular or unpopular depending on yr point of view as CT is now.
MA will continue in exactly the same way as if TOD doesn't exist - as it won't for 98% of players.
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I have concerns about AH2 also.
If the combat theater is unused, why will AH2 be popular?
If the player base in the main will do nothing but furball-suicide-strat, why will they jump into AH2?
AH2 is such a sharp departure from the main theater, I wonder if the player-base will make the jump. Maybe for 1 week, but after that will we have a big-empty AH2?
One suggestion. Limit the number of times you can up from a base after dieing. Die twice and then you have to come up from another base.
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Originally posted by beet1e
I don’t care for the repeat pork-n-auger suicide & re-uppage game...
Save a CV/Furball...
Kill an Ammo Bunker.
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The important thing to remember is the MA will get a new FM engine and much better graphics. Whoooo hooooo!!!!
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AH2 is not AH2: ToD (mission theater).
AH2 will be a continuation of AH1.XX
AH2 will be AH2 classic (same thing as current main but graphic upgrades and AH2:ToD. AH2 ToD wont be out right away from what I gether. AH2 classic will be the "beta". Once everything is ok then I assume once the main bugs are fixed it will be out.
AH2:ToD wont be dependent on numbers as its not an open arena. Missions will start in XX intervals. They will be ai bombers and gvs etc.
So its sounds to me like some of yas need to read the TOD Forum.
As for number balance in the main thers never been balance and folks have been crying for years how the number imbalance hurts gameplay. But theres still 500 guys in the main.
Noneed to beat this horse again if you are upset with the imbalance make sure you move to the side with the lower numbers.
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Premature postulation.....all will be good.
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Scarlett~
"I can't think about that now...I'll think about it tomorrow."
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Smack me if Im wrong, But isnt AH: TOD geared to attact some new type of players. Its not geared at dragging folks out of the MA, But to be open to a new market of players.
Some will certainly fly it, and I expect everyone will check it out. I dont remember it ever beeing presented as a fix to the MA .
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Toad...you really should stop tailgating Rood. Gonna cause an accident :).
I believe AH2 will be fine. I am not so positive about TOD. Generally speaking, I believe the MA will see very little change. But hey, HT has a habit of making things work...who knows :).
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Originally posted by Killjoy2
If the combat theater is unused, why will AH2 be popular?
Because everyone goes where the most are logged in already.
Isn't the CT just another MA just with nicer maps and limited plane choice? Any other differences?
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Beetl1 what is your opinion on future landings of men on Mars?
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Only flight sim I played where you had hundreds of people in multiple arenas was Air Warrior. There has got to be a lesson in there somewhere.
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There is some good info on AH2 TOD that you could problably re-read.
Your above problem shouldnt really be such a big issue in a controlled environment.
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The combat theater is just a mini MA
Ill wait and just see as long as i can fly the P38 it wil be allright.
The only thing permanent is change.
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Originally posted by Zanth
Only flight sim I played where you had hundreds of people in multiple arenas was Air Warrior. There has got to be a lesson in there somewhere.
:D
culero ;)
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Originally posted by beet1e
. That, plus evenly matched planesets in missions, ie not F6F v Yak-9U or some other such mismatch.
Ah Beet1e, my experience is that for their own good, Yak-9Us should avoid Hellcats rather than be so badly overmatched....
My regards,
Widewing
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Beet1e... other than the extreme where there are only one or two bases available, it's better to fly against greater numbers... more targets!!!.
Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!
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It's the steamrollering I don't like. Even furballers like Messrs Toad and Lazs don't like the steamroller. Because the outcome does not depend on skill, just numbers.
Steve - that's easy to say when you fly the P51D most of the time. I don't want to fly the Big Three because everyone else is doing it! Actually it's becoming like the Big Five: P51/Spit ix/LA7/N1K/Yak9U. You will never see me in any of those planes.
Of course, if the strat guys go to AH2-TOD, then the only people in AH2-Classic apart from the furballers will be the steamrollers. The furballers might not like that.
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BIG mistake not catering for squads in TOD.:mad:
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Originally posted by Batz
AH2 is not AH2: ToD (mission theater).
No need to beat this horse again if you are upset with the imbalance make sure you move to the side with the lower numbers.
tried that batz.....
was Knights and had fun....but they where FIXATED on Bishops.
went Crooks......too many 'INDIVIDUALS' not enough team players.....
went Bishops....got a big welcome and had the pleasure of joining an excellent goup of gents.....so I stayed
numbers had nothing to do with it.....
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if you are upset with the imbalance make sure you move to the side with the lower numbers.
if you arent upset then who cares.
BIG mistake not catering for squads in TOD.
What HT said in that interview is the squad format of the main wont be aprt of ah tod. That mat mean a different format or no squads. I doudt he would go with no squads but either way its to early to jump to extreme conclusions. Best to wait and see.
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Not sure what you are complaining about... Are you saying that you just now discovered that being on the side that is being steamrollered makes it harder to survive?
If you are saying that you have discovered that the only real strat in AH is.... The side with the numbers "wins" the reset... then you haven't been paying attention... I have been saying that for a very long time.
I don't see what any of this has to do with AH2 tho except that AH2 should make things better.... those who like strat (milkruns and suicide attention grabbing) will go to TOD. There will be room to make the MA more fight friendly and, as mars points out, we will be getting some graphics and FM changes.
lazs
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I'm hoping MA strat will get a tune up (overhaul?) at the same time. IMO, when the emphasis shifts away from "the fight" in any combat type sim/game, you've built yourself a problem.
"Winning the war" needs to relate to how well you fight. What seems to have developed in the MA is that it relates to how well you avoid a fight. Now some will quibble, but milkruns, unbalanced strat opportunities and steamrollers really do not contribute much to the type of fight most folks seek in a "combat" game. Does anyone really log into a combat game to enjoy rolling over the enemy at 40/5 odds every night?
Just my .02. I'm willing to wait to see what the new AH2 brings and I'm willing to wait through the following couple of "." releases to see how it is tweaked out. Then I'll decide.
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Lazs – I’m not surprised you are not sure what I’m complaining about. Simple answer really: I’m not complaining at all. I am observing. I leave all the whining to you and other furball whiners. Whines about bombs, whines about maps, whines about suicide fuel porkers, whines about target hardness, whines about night & day, whines about defending HQ being “no fun”, whines about certain players being "timid"... quite a whine cellar you have down there. Speciality seems to be the Château Lazsite Baron Rothschild, but it’s getting old, sour and vinegary. Time to try a new vintage.
Condensed version for Lazs, and any others with attention span deficit syndrome
I look forward to AH2/TOD because I’m hoping it will provide realistic missions, realistic plane matchups and parity of numbers – altogether a more balanced arena. Much better than the numerical supremacy smashdown crap we have now. But given that so many apparently enjoy and derive satisfaction from steamrollering, I suspect that many of these folks will not be interested in AH2/TOD or any other balanced scenario. Pity.
Now Lazs, take your time to read the above paragraph – the Cliff Notes version of my original post in blue I did just for you. If you reply, see if you can do it without recourse to the following:- snide remarks
- quoting other people’s stats or scores
- turning it into a ”my k/d is better than yours” thread.
- accusing another player of bragging or being an attention seeker or sky accountant.
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Mr. Toad!
Glad we agree on the balance issue. :)
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What does this have to do with AH2:TOD?
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I made a statement a couple of years ago that the MA is so far away from what I wanted out of a combat sim that its best to just work with the tools available and hope a new game came out.
Someone (I forget who) asked me via e-mail what I'd prefer to see in a combat flight sim. I wrote about two pages of hopes for a combat sim. I really wish I'd saved that e-mail because it pretty much described AH2 TOD.
What TOD will bring:- Actual missions with actual goals
- Elimination of instant reward/gratification
- Real incentive to actually survive missions weighed heavily against the need to complete them
- Simulating the "make the best of the situation" mentality that WW2 squadrons faced in regards to resources. Basically, the need to figure out how to best accomplish the mission with the given aircraft... not chosing the best aircraft for the mission
- Penalties for dieing (though I suggested 1 death equals start over from scratch)
- Not being able to pick and choose your squadmates, instead having to work with those you were teamed with.
- Having a basic flight training that covered things like basic wingman tactics and formation flying (not too long, but long enough)
There were some other things too... but that was the meat and potatos version.
The only real problem with squads is that in the MA, you pick who you have fun with and it works. In combat, you weren't afforded that luxury. You made due.
To be honest, a sim that attempts to closely simulate Air Combat needs to have an MA running along side of it. Simulating combat means simulating real work... doing things you don't necessarily like to nor want to do with company you may or may not enjoy. It will be welcomed by some simply because of the challenge presented, not necessarily because of the "fun" factor. The fun will have to be had in the MA. This is what I was wanting when the CT was introduced... not a mini MA.
MiniD
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Have I Mentioned AH:TOD is not intended to Fix the MA, draw players out of the MA or effect MA Gameplay at all?
As I understand it, Its hoped to draw a new type of customer that is looking for something between a boxed game, and what we have now.
Its open to everyone, and I am sure most current players will check it out. Some will find that it suits them best and spend their time there. But Most Current Players will be doing exactly what they are doing now.
Sorry Laz, Its not likely to change gameplay much. I think Batz is the only one that really seems to understand what is planned for AH:TOD.
Dont look for Missions, Steamrollers, Gangbangs, Dweeb planes, or Porking to go away. The MA will say pretty close to what we have now.
The side bonus is the new graphics and modeling will give the MA a face lift.
I wonder if anyone that flies currently in the MA seriously intends to leave the MA and fly only TOD... I know Ill check it out, but Ill still fly the MA.
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I just hope they make the sheep scream when I shoot them.
That to me gives the game realism and adds to my pleasure in playing this game.
I guess I also wouldn't mind a new flight model and graphics.
But I really do want the sheep to scream in terror... not just say "Baaaa" like they are grazing peacefullly under white cotton clouds.
When sheep were shot in AW their sheep said "Baa". My blood lust was left unsatisfied. And it didn't matter how many sheep I shot, the "Baa" sound left me flat and wanting. it did not please me to kill sheep in AW. And so that AW eventually was no longer successful.
I'm not sure how to spell a sheep scream... especially one screaming in terror.
I don't think it's "eeek"... I hope HT can imagine what I'm talking about.
Perhap... "baaaweek" something like that.
I haven't seen AH2 TOD, so I have no idea what's in it, or whether it's a good game or not, and I don't know any of the developers personally, or impersonally, but if they like sheep like I do and if they add the sheep terroried screams, I know TOD will be fun to play.
At least it will be for me.
Baaaaa to all my friends.
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Yeah, I'm glad to see it too, Beet1e. Glad you're catching up.
Now, once you finally accept that the changes towards more, better and deeper strat are what turned the MA on to the new heading where avoiding the fight is more a "successful" strategy for winning the war, you'll be fully caught up.
:D
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Originally posted by Toad
Yeah, I'm glad to see it too, Beet1e. Glad you're catching up.
Now, once you finally accept that the changes towards more, better and deeper strat are what turned the MA on to the new heading where avoiding the fight is more a "successful" strategy for winning the war, you'll be fully caught up.
:D
So... you're blaming the current steamroller-horde mentality on the current strat?
:confused:
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You just now figuring that out beetle? Of course the current suicide porking and steamrollering have to do with the current strat... what else could it possibly be?
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
... what else could it possibly be?
Laziness.
It is difficult to learn BFM's to say nothing of ACM's. It takes effort and patience. It requires a lot of practice and sometimes study.
In this "game", the easiest things to do are pork and auger. It's quick and offers tangible results with little to no effort.
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....and, when you reward "pork and auger" and reward horde/hive/steamroller tactics with the "we won the war/perks for reset", will you get more or less of the same?
It's not easy to strike a balance but when the focus shifts away from encouraging the fight to inhibiting the ability to fight back, there's always going to be problems in a "combat" game.
Like it or not, the current focus of AH strategy is inhibiting the ability to fight back, not on the fight itself.
Just my .02. Wish I had a solution that would make everyone happy but I'm too much of a realist to even try for one.
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Its not inhibiting the ability to fight back that's the problem... it's that there's not much point to defense. There hasn't been for some time. There's not much of a score reward for it and there's not much of a sense of accomplishment since you know the guy you just shot down is only going to be back in 7 minutes. It's the curse of the MA. As a result, all you get are multiple waves of offense meeting little to no defense. It doesn't boil down to how well you defend, rather how quickly you capture.
MiniD
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In my post I said that P&A offers tangible results with little effort and I should have also added that there is no penalty.
Now, bear in mind there never was any real penalty other than this:
SYSTEM: Hblair shot down Furious 3.
...or however that message went. I hated that. It was personal then. I wanted to do everything I could to kill AND survive.
As discussed in another thread, I think shame could be a carrot. I have no problem with jabo. I hate the suicide pork crap though.
SYSTEM: StrtPrkr augered into a fuel bunker.
Couple of those would go along way, IMO.
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Hasn't it always been possible to destroy fuel bunkers in AH? (I don't recall the destruction of fuel bunkers being added as a new gameplay feature in the time I've been here since Nov.2001.) If not, then it's not the current strat that is causing suicide fuel porking as that strat feature has been there for a long time.
What has changed is the number of players now online - especially as a result of the demise of AW, and the melting away of WB. I think a lot of guys have realised how easy it is to take down a field with overwhelming numerical supremacy, and make it even easier by porking the fuel. I don't know what AW was like, but I'm hearing that such suicide tactics may have been imported from there.
I agree with MiniD about the 7 minutes. And the reason it is only 7 minutes is because the fields are too close together. One of the reasons I like the pizza map is because these P&A suicide missions are impractical on AK-Pizza with more fields that are more widely spaced.
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Dear Retards,
AH gameplay is about the most meaningless ***** to consume yourselves about. That's why your tards.
(I should charge for this advice)
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Hasn't it always been possible to destroy fuel bunkers in AH? (I don't recall the destruction of fuel bunkers being added as a new gameplay feature in the time I've been here since Nov.2001.) If not, then it's not the current strat that is causing suicide fuel porking as that strat feature has been there for a long time.
You could always pork the fuel. What's changed is before why would you want to? It was about the fight. Kill me and I'll come back looking for you. There was always field capture and resets etc.
This all began after there was a perk reward offered for resets. The gave a whole new meaning to resets. It meant winning something. Then came over a whole new type of player where the "war winning" got taken to a whole new level.
The fight became secondary to the "war". Some folks just want to pop in for an hour or so and fight. They dont care about wars or strat or any of that sillyness. When 1 or 2 guys can impact the fun of 50+ guys and it then takes 10 guys 20 min in c47s to repair want 1 suicide player has done then the balance has shifted to far.
Fluffers used to have a similiar impact. laser bombing of 2 or 3 buildings shut down an entire nights fun. HT changed the layout of the fields and changed the bombing system.
No one wants to waste their time flying about over a field being bored for an hour waiting for some suicide porker to happen by.
it simple really you can just reduce the imapct that 1 guy has over everyone else by adding more fule tanks to the fileds. Spreading umm out so it will take more then 1 guy to kill most or all of them. Increase their hardness, reduce their downtime and increase the effect of player resupplies. Finally on the 512 x 512 maps make the fuel mod 1.
All this can be done now. It would take some time to add fuel tanks but not much.
Ultimately, it would be good to see the reset trigger shifted away from a pure land grab to something else like say country resources/production. Where their are cities and factories that are large and need a constant pounding by bombers to destroy to a level that triggers a reset. The the strat guys could do that and the fighters can go at with out fear that some lonely war winner may decide you are having to much fun and pork your fuel.
but none of this has piss to do with AH2:ToD. There will be no war winning there. :p
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Pretty good overall assessment Batz.
As for the Supreme No-Content Commentator, AH gameplay is generally supposed to be fun. That's sort of the point of playing games; even you must realize this by now. Therefore generates comments by gameplayers, particularly when they are no longer having fun. But I'm not surprised you haven't realized THAT yet.
Yes, you should charge. I'm sure you'll get exactly what it's worth. Don't forget to tell us all when enough cash comes in to actually buy you a cup of coffee. I'm sure it'll be a red letter day. For my great grandchildren.
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Hi, my name is Steve, and I'm inexorably turning into a furballaholic.
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Batz - thanks for that clarification. As Mr. Toad has pointed out in the past, I am a relative newbie to AH, so I don't know about some of these changes or why they were made. I was particularly interested in the early part of your explanation.
You could always pork the fuel. What's changed is before why would you want to? It was about the fight. Kill me and I'll come back looking for you. There was always field capture and resets etc.
This all began after there was a perk reward offered for resets. The gave a whole new meaning to resets. It meant winning something. Then came over a whole new type of player where the "war winning" got taken to a whole new level.
You could always pork the fuel - that's what I wanted confirmed. So the current wave of fuel porkage is not due to a recently added game/strat feature, but to the antics of the players. If you're saying that the fuel porkage/win the reset mentality is driven by the perk award system, I would prefer to see that area tackled to stem fuel porkage, rather than by adjusting object "hardness".
Still, it amazes me that even The Kidz in this game would resort to such extreme measures just to win a few perks. The WB system was good - you got triple points for landing kills. It cut out much of the suicide crap, but of course k/t would have to suffer. Take your pick.
Hiya, Creamo. Have you tried Finlandia with added lime flavouring? Not bad. But perhaps not as exotic as the raspberry flavoured Stolichnaya. ;)
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Originally posted by Grimm
Have I Mentioned AH:TOD is not intended to Fix the MA, draw players out of the MA or effect MA Gameplay at all?
As I understand it, Its hoped to draw a new type of customer that is looking for something between a boxed game, and what we have now.
You miss the fact that it will draw players out of the MA, for exactly the reason you cite -- the people who want more than the eternal "99 enemy bases to take, 99 enemy bases / Pork one down, the troops enter town / 98 enemy bases to take" situation are going to move to AH2:TOD, leaving the people who just want to rain on people's parade -- the 'pork-n-auger dweebs' -- and Lasz and his fellow SpitQuake (aka StangQuake, HogQuake, JugQuake, et al.) players.
How many of the current MA players it's going to pull I can't say; I don't even pretend to know the motivations of anyone but myself. But it will draw people out of the MA.
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Originally posted by Shiva
You miss the fact that it will draw players out of the MA,
Naw.. I didnt miss that fact.. I even said so myself. I pretty much agree with your asessment.
The reason I stated that was because I read so many posts that say to some extent... "The MA will be good again after AH:TOD" Like AH:TOD is being created to fix gameplay issues in the MA. (most posts in this thread are based on MA gameplay)
AH:TOD will probably have little effect on MA. All the Mission guys wont leave the MA, Porkers will still wallow there as well. I dont think the Fighter Pukes will leave the kill a minute enviroment of the MA either ;)
Yes, Some people will find AH:TOD to be a new home and that great too. Man, I hope AH:TOD turns out really cool and we can all enjoy it when it arrives.
If it does indeed draw many new players to its arena and AH, and provides HTC with more revenue, It will certainly be sucessful.
{edit addtion} BTW, Liked your 99 bases song :) LOL!
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As long as you get nice shiny medals then ill be there :D
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LOL Beet. Yeah, you DID teach Laz that technique.
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Originally posted by Steve
Hi, my name is Steve, and I'm inexorably turning into a furballaholic.
The pure truth has a way of setting you free:)
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Originally posted by Toad
LOL Beet. Yeah, you DID teach Laz that technique.
What, the vodka? hehe, that was just an to Creamo. :)
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Originally posted by Batz
You could always pork the fuel. What's changed is before why would you want to?[/color] It was about the fight. Kill me and I'll come back looking for you. There was always field capture and resets etc.
This all began after there was a perk reward offered for resets. The gave a whole new meaning to resets.
No, I was referring to this part that you so conveniently overlook.
When the focus was on the fight, the rudimentary strategy options weren't a problem.
When the focus shifted to "winning the war" and strategy options like 7 resupply sorties to restore fuel a +25% were implemented problems became evident.
As even you apparently now realize.
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So what caused the shift to winning the war? The perk point award system? Fix that. Don't try to remedy the situation by tinkering with something else (target "hardness"). Else you're likely to end up with an additional problem, while the first one remains unsolved.
Just for the record, I don't care about winning the war - never online long enough for that to matter, and there's no cohesion/coordination amongst the typical "it's my $14.95" group of AHers for the end result to depend on anything but numbers. But I DO prefer the scenario by which the battles and combat arise from one country's attempts to capture a field, and the other country's attempts to defend it. Just upping fighters to go against other fighters is an exercise in futility, IMO. YOMD.
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Tell me Beet1e, how balanced do you think it is when one guy can drop the fuel to 25% in two good passes but it takes 1 guy 7 goon sorties (or 7 guys 1 goon sortie.. however you want to look at it)?
If you think that's pretty well balanced, what's your position on one guy dropping an H-bomb on HQ and taking it out until reset occurs. That balanced too?
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Hehe, Mr. Toad. :) The great champion of the F-word – freedom – in the MA. But oh! It’s all coming home to roost now. ;) I remember the day when you used to chastise me about trying to “infringe on the freedom of others” by suggesting a different, more coordinated style of gameplay, or of being a “generalissimo” for lamenting the fact that other people “didn’t play my way”. What have we here? Mr. Toad, lamenting the fact that people are too organised at porking the fuel, and whose style of gameplay is therefore not as Mr. Toad deems fit! But don’t worry, Bufo. We’re on the same side in this really. Well, we’re on opposite sides facing a common enemy in the middle – the suicide dweeb.
I had no idea, until reading Batz’s explanation about the perk reward system, that there were guys here that are so desperate as to need to force the reset just to get perks. On voxx channel a few weeks ago, I heard someone saying something about the side switchers – switching to the winning side just prior to reset in order to get perks. Pathetic.
What we have here now is an arena full of kidz/tardz who have learned to game the game to such an extent that it’s bad for the game. AH has been a victim of its own success in attracting huge numbers of new customers, but many of these, it would seem, have no interest in WW2, and just want to see stuff blow up, get undeserved perks, and carry on. Complete wanktards.
Can you now see why I was disappointed that the mission arena concept did not appear in the current release, just before last Christmas? Can you now see why I favour a game that encourages more structured gameplay, rather than the no-holds-barred fragfest we have now?
You have in the past pooh-poohed the idea of returning to base to land kills – no point in continuing the flight, once the last round has been fired, you have said. Lazs would be quick to point out that landing kills would adversely affect k/t – so it would, but k/t means bugger all – too many variables for it to have any bearing on anything. I have suggested the Brand-W approach of tripling scores/perks for landed kills, as I know from experience that this would eradicate a huge amount of the suiciding we now see almost every sortie in AH, and would very probably address the SFP problem. People would have to earn that score/those perks by their own efforts, other than joining the winning side prior to reset and/or going mobhanded on pork-n-auger missuns every sortie.
To answer your questions, bomb damage in a real life scenario would take much longer to repair than to inflict. If you want to vary that truism to suit the game, well I guess it’s your old friend Selective Realism™ at work. In AH, the HQ can be resupplied by goons. I have done it myself. For a successful drop, you get one whole perk point! It’s not my problem if, for you and your fellow fingerbobs, resupply of HQ or defending it against attack is “not fun”, especially now that you have the fingerbob mandated Me163 available for HQ defence. I have had to resupply HQ AND defend it from attack. Why shouldn’t you? “Not fun” is not an adequate response.
I have made suggestions about changes to gameplay in the past. I suggested turning off the mission editor, as clearly that is the tool being used to organise these mindless suicide porkage runs. Can you remember what your comment was when I made that suggestion? In that thread, I said "Seems that Doofus-Dweebius wants nothing more than to smash down the enemy by brute force, and as I have said before: the outcome is about as predictable and interesting as pondering the fate of a wine glass when dropped from a height of 10 feet onto a stone floor." And your considered response was ”I always love it when people speak in absolutist terms about what should or should not be considered fun. :D” You said it in this (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=52208) thread.
And now here you are, presiding over this thread and having the temerity to castigate the suicide fuel porkers for choosing an activity which they consider to be fun. Well, Mr. Toad. What’s sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. :)
I think many excellent players of this game are now sick to death of what it has become, and the problems are worst on the children’s maps.
The evidence is here for all to see the folly of a game that has no rules and no structure.
“As even you apparently now realize.” :D
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Good post, beetle.
The response..?
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So much communication, so little understanding.
I don't lament the fact that people are organized at porking fuel or that they can pork fuel at all.
The point is, that like the addition of the H-bomb, the game is simply unbalanced in the strategic aspect at present.
One person can knock fuel down for an excessive period (hours possibly? depending on the "zone" state and other stuff) in a relatively short period (15-20 minutes?). To restore the fuel a mere 25%.. to bring it from 25% to 50%... then takes the other side an HOUR or more of resupply.
The upshot is that the planes with smaller fuel tanks or poor fuel efficiency (or both) become basically useless. The later war aircraft become the de facto aircraft of choice simply because they have longer range. And for a guy that is tired of seeing P-51's Beet1e, surely you see the implication. :)
Let them pork fuel. Let the fly what they like. Let the suicide auger. Let them fly the sacred missions, let them win the glorious war. Good on them, I say.
Allow me to repeat that, since you think I've changed my stance:
Let them pork fuel. Let the fly what they like. Let the suicide auger. Let them fly the sacred missions, let them win the glorious war. Good on them, I say.
Just give me a reasonable chance to do what I'd like to do. Fly and fight other aircraft. I'm willing to even fly an (ugh) resupply sortie or two.
But an hour's worth of my playing time just to get fuel up to a usable level for the early planeset (the ones I prefer) is asking a bit much. Don't you agree?
Ah, you don't agree. You think it's fine that the damage of a 15 minute sortie should take an hour + to repair. Even though this impacts the early war planes that add variety to the MA, you prefer to allow this imbalance to promote the greater use and overabundance of the P-51 type aircraft that you already complain about.
Further, since it's now clear that just about NO ONE will bother to fly 7 goon sorties to build fuel back up 25%, it's obvious that in actual gameplay, dropping fuel to 25% is a condition that exists until the enemy captures that base. So, a 15-10 minute sortie can easily have an all night effect. Especially when one guy can knock it down again in two passes at a small field by investing 15 -20 minutes of his playing time.
As far as defending against it, well, it's your play time, use it as you like. You want to orbit over a field all night and try to catch them in their dives, go ahead.
I've reached a point where I'll field-hop looking for good fights until none are available. Then if I still have time available it's off to the DA or the CT.
I guess I view the fight-killing strateegery like I do "night". When the sun goes down, I go somewhere else. When the MA is devoid of the opportunity to get in some good fights in the early part of the plane set, I go somewhere else.
I agree with some of what you've said. However, you left out the part where the shift away from "the fight" and the trend towards "deeper strategy" to "win the war" have taken the game.
Yeah, we've had a change in the player base to some extent. But more importantly, we've had a change in why people play, as Batz pointed out very succinctly.
You think heavily structuring gameplay would solve this problem. Well, you'll get to test that hypothesis in the TOD I'd think. That will have maximum structure.
I still don't favor it in the least in the MA. IMO, it will never work, nor would it be desirable. So I remain consistent in my views.
IMO, what needs to be done is to again focust the MA on what an aircombat game is supposed to be about... air combat. The focus on "winning the war" is what brought us to the sorry state of the MA right now.
What good are perk points? I don't use them. Well, I did give away 2000 perks worth of kills the other night while talking on the phone. A field was getting vultched and I kept upping 262's and sitting on the end of the runway. I lost about 10-12 of them while watching 5 guys auger as they tried to race to the kill. :) I really enjoyed watching that. It's the best use for perks I've found so far.
The fight's the thing. Until that becomes the focus of the MA, you're going to have all the behaviors of which you (and a lot of other folks) are so bloody tired.
No rules, no structure will change it as long as "winning the war" is the reason to play. Reward "winning the war" and you'll get more of the same behavior... or worse.
Reward "winning the fight" and you'll get more and better air combat. Tough to do, but there it is.
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beetle... my K/T is highrer than yours and I land more kills than you do (K/D) no stat by itself does anything but help the person who's stat it is.. he can use it for an indicator of progress in one area. several stats taken together show how a person plays. for instance, K/D and K/H together show how aggressive or timid a person is. I land or ditch because I am usually over enemyt territory or have been hit. I don't want to give the kill to someone who didn't earn it or have it count as a kill against me if it wasn't. K/H taken with K/D is absolutely a good indicator of behavior and gameplay. K/H by itself can indicate how boring a map is... for instance... I would bet everyones K/H allmost halves during pizza map... the text buffer is devoid of kills... nothing but old women and little kids chatting about farts and politics.
toad is telling you that several "strat" features in the MA have made gameplay worse. One is fuel... I believe that not beiong able to land at an enemy base and not be captured is another... that much less chance people will venture allmost 2 sectors out(and allmost 2 home) if they tripple or more their chance of having a death recorded unless they go in huge hives. Giving perk points for the reset encouraged steamrollering and milkrunning. These and others are tiny things that have been changed in the "strat" that have hurt gameplay.
lazs
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I've argued before on the ease with which someone can take down the fuel Toad. I can't argue about people returning over a 15-20 minute period to take it down knowing it will still be down another hour and a half.
I did bring up once before, the idea of tying damage into survival of the attacker when it came to ground objects. It wasn't met well. The loss of an aircraft and a pilot in WW2 had a far greater impact than the fact that they didn't destroy the object they were trying to attack. I remember the Lancasters that dropped the dam buster... how many were lost and despite the fact that the mission was successfull, the British Generals felt the losses were too excessive. In AH, dieing while attacking something means you'll get back there to attack the next thing just a little bit sooner.
The damage for attack planes that have been killed say within 5 minutes of destroying a ground object should be undone. Its gamey and unrealistic, but its nothing compared to crashing replaning and re-bombing.
MiniD
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So that's what you remember? Agreeing with me? :D
There's lots of things that "could" be done with regard to "strat". We'll just have to wait and see if anything is done.
I surely don't think MORE strat and MORE structure is the answer though. I think the answer lies in a balance that allows the "war winners" to follow their dream while the "girls just wanna have fun" crowd can grab a bit of "quality time".
The way my life's going, I don't have that much time to put into AH anymore anyway. If I can get in an hour of time to play in the evening and find a few good fights, it's all I can ask for right now.
Sometimes I can do this in the MA; most of the time I can do it in the DA. Every once in a while the CT comes through. I prefer the MA comraderie but not to the point where I'll be bored while listening to the banter.
It's enough for where I'm at right now.
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Mr. Toad. OK, so now we’re communicating. Remember, we’re actually on the same side in this – you, me, MiniD, Lazs. But MiniD and I are one side, and you and Lazs are on the other side, all of us firing bullets at the common enemy in the middle – the suicide dweeb. Some of mine and MiniD’s stray bullets are landing in your camp, and some of yours and Lazs’s are landing in ours.
There’s one point you made that I don’t agree with at all. I don’t think that it’s the fuel problem that makes the P51D as overused as it is. Even without this current fuel problem, the P51D would still be in the big three.
Are we all agreed that the scoresheet is a prime motivator for many, especially low skilled dweebs? If so, then a tripling of score and perks for landed kills would encourage landing, at the same time discouraging suiciding. The fight would be rewarded. We’d all be happy. For someone like Lazs who prefers to use k/t as his yardstick, he could auger and get another plane. His perks and score would be less, but I don’t think that would bother him. For the low skill dweebs who feel the need to switch to the winning side just before reset as the fast track to perks, they would now have much greater impetus not to suicide. If they were encouraged to earn their perks, many of these dweebs might even take the trouble to learn some ACM skills, and not rely on the HO. And if we had a properly structured training arena where people could learn these things instead of being told “shaddap” or “try Alt+F4”, maybe some of these unfortunates would not end up as disillusioned HO-merchants and might even become worthy pilots.
So I agree with you: Reward the fight, but do it by rewarding landed kills which would have the benefit of improving gameplay, improving the overall skill level, AND discouraging suicides. But leave the strat! The game is better when the fights are driven by territorial disputes. Well I think so. What guys like MiniD, Muckmaw and myself want out of the game is not mutually exclusive to what you, Lazs and Nopoop want.
Perk points – I use ‘em to buy my Chogs. One of the reasons my Chog k/d is higher than some other planes is because I’m more careful in it. Sometimes they’re 20pp or more. Overall rank: Useful if you want to take control of a CV, and not having some low ranking tard take it away from you.
Resupply: It’s a tough one. Furballers don’t like the fact that it takes many trips to resupply a fuel-porked base. They don’t like their HQ to be porked. But what about the bomber pilots? To get to enemy HQ, they might have to fly 45 minutes, and nowadays their efforts are much more likely to come to nought – because of the introduction of the Me163. How do you think the bomber pilots would feel if their efforts at bombing a strategic target totalling an hour or more can be reversed in 10 minutes by some guy upping a goon with supplies?
Lazs! You brighten up my days. :D Hehe, but you’re off topic, matey! This thread isn’t about personal stats, and neither is it about gun control! ;) But as it’s you, I’ll indulge you. I don’t dispute what you said about our respective stats/scores, but your statement is incomplete. You might well have slightly better k/t and k/d, but that was influenced in part by an horrendous 20 minutes this week in which I battled to save a Rook CV.
But your fighter rank is still lower than mine. You are now #215 and I am #177. Also your hit percentage is a little over 7%, whereas mine is nearly 11%. And your fighter points score rank is #582; mine is #84. Interpret this data any way you want. In an unstructured arena, it’s meaningless. What was the point of bringing it up? :confused:
But your punishment for taking the thread off topic will be a face slapping with two wet fish – how about a pair of mullets – a red one and a grey one? Your cat’s will be happy. (LoL – just the word “mullet” cracks me up this week.) You’ll be pinned to the ground, and powerless to resist – Funked will be doing some close range mooning – ie sitting on your chest. Even a strong guy like you won’t be able to break free from the Funked-moon-hold. ;)
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No, Beet1e, I really don't think we're on the same side. See, I still don't even see the need for a "war". I only see the need for a fight. :)
The suicide dweeb per se doesn't bother me in the least. It's his $15/mo. If he wants to dive bomb the field outhouse and auger, hey, whatever blows his skirt up.
It's the balance of the thing, chum, to which you allude and apparently agree. I am somewhat in sympathy with the bomber pilots that attack HQ (even though I don't do that). Done in a manner that assures reasonable success, I'm sure it takes them an hour or so. Seems to me that, should they succeed, the damage ought to take about an hour of player time to repair.
Pretty consistent with my view on fuel, don't you agree? Takes 15 player-minutes to kill, should take somewhere on the order of 15 player-minutes to repair. Doesn't have to be a 1-1 relationship, but it surely SHOULD NOT be a 1-7 relationship either.
As for the P-51; I don't fly it nearly as much as I once did. However, if all the front line bases are at 25% and I need a quick fix, guess which plane I take. Why? Because 25% in a -51 allows some fight time. On the big maps, this is even more of a factor. Take AKDesert where much of the time you're flying "uphill" across a sector or more to the fight. An early war plane arrives with little gas and little altitude. A -51 will give a better overall chance to have a decent time. (BTW, I never plan on RTB with 25% on a big map in any plane. I'm not going waste "fight time" on commuting that length of time.)
I suspect I'm not alone in this type of choice when fuels are uniformly 25% on the front lines, either. Take off from a rear base you say? And fly another bloody sector to the fight? Not likely! WAY too much of a commute.
Face it, I'm never going to be your ideal type of player.
I think Furious had a good point. When we dropped the "Joe was killed by Tom" message, we lost a "prime motivator". Far more motivational than perks are or would ever be for me in any event.
Apparently, HT felt it was a bit too aggressive and had a bad effect on the newbs, seeing their names on the dinner menu so often.
I think the "2 kills landed by" message is a poor substitute, although perhaps it could be improved by making it tougher to get your name in lights in the better aircraft. Maybe 2 kills gets you mentioned in a C-202 but it might take 5 to get mentioned in an La-7? Don't know, just a thought.
CV control? The few times I've tried it, I found I couldn't do much quality fighting myself because I was always steering the CV to keep it from getting knocked out. Now, I'd rather just enjoy the fights and move on when it's inevitably sunk.
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Originally posted by Mini D
The damage for attack planes that have been killed say within 5 minutes of destroying a ground object should be undone. Its gamey and unrealistic, but its nothing compared to crashing replaning and re-bombing.
I wonder what impact simply reducing the fuel multiplier would have on the Main Arena, particularly regarding the impact that porked fuel plays on early war and gas guzzling planes. Would longer overall fuel durations negatively impact the Main Arena so substantially as to offset the advantages of reducing the importance of fuel quantity?
I admit, I haven't thought much about the consequences of such an action beyond its perhaps increasing the prevalance of Yaks and La7s. An added bonus to this plan is that HTC could implement the change immediately without programming in a fix.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Toad
So that's what you remember? Agreeing with me? :D
I remember someone arguing that anyone could take all the fuel down in 2 passes. That is now, and will forever be a rediculous statement.
But... I do think the fuel stays down too long. And I do think that people return to continue damaging fields. We'd probably strongly disagree as to why (fields closer together would make this easier?).
There are problems with the strat. Some could be adjusted... most would probably agree. These problems affect everyone.
The main disagreement comes with the fundamental belief that somehow the strat guys are being catered too at the expense of the furballers. This argument has been presented by you and lazs on several occasions. Every single time it meets with resistance because it is quite simply wrong. And... because it is combative in nature.
When hangars were the only way to prohibit flight, bunkers and fuel cells were introduced along with more hangars to allow targets to be hit that were impacting, but didn't prohibit flight. Options to do more allowing more. The re-arm pads were later added so that taking down fuel did not prevent those that survived the attack from re-arming and refueling with undamaged planes and continuing to fight and defend. Strat elements were added to take the fight away from the field (towns and factories). But "HTC has ruined the game for the furballers" still persists. Oh... that's right... it's just my "perspective" on the impact of those additions... and exactly who benifitted from them.
The addition of zones to the game seems to have driven the rebuild times to excessive limits. The reward greatly outweighs the loss and is demonstrated on a regular basis. That should be adressed. Not because it impacts furballers, but because it impacts everyone.
MiniD
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Would you like some films of folks doing it?
Emailed to you? Or do you just want to go to the TAS website and see Rude's posted flick? (See "Films of Guts and Glory"). That one is converted to AVI and lacks the text buffer but I have the AHF if you like. I believe Rude has a few more and Thunder has one as well.
Even "only bombs during a blue moon" me took out 3 tanks on a small field last night in one pass and got the field barracks on the reverse because the other fuel (next to the barracks) was down before I got there. Of course, then Mathman killed me, but the two passes/4 shacks were no problem, even for me.
Oh, and I believe these are all P-38 examples... the biggest ack-magnet jabo in the hangar.
Looks like it was a simple statement of fact to me.
Well, let's see. There have been continual additions to "strat" at the request of those interested in that sort of thing. Who should I think is being catered to? And, until recently, you never really heard much from the "the fight's the thing" crowd. Never asked for anything because nothing was needed. The fights were always there. Now, it's different and even you apparently are beginning to see what folks are pointing out.
It simply reached the point where "strat", coupled with other changes like big maps, has made the fuel limited part of the planeset essentially unusable. That's what got all this started.
That's why the previously quiet faction has started to speak out.
Your summation of the changes is your recollection. For example, I remember the "rearm pad" campaign's focus to be "I don't want to break my string of victories". IE: Guys wanted to see that "10 kills" message. I also recall the gist of the moving the maproom off the base to make it harder for tricycle gear aircraft to strafe troops running to the map room. It wasn't to "take the fight away from the field", it was to make it harder to kill the troops once they were on the ground. Just like the "carbombing" changes with the buffs.
Now, argue those points all you like but not everyone has the same memory of those changes that you do. I'm sure you figure your memory is the only correct one though.
Again, keep all the strat. Add more. I simply don't care.
But don't make things so unbalanced that one player can do damage in ~15 mintues that takes an hour + to repair while invalidating the (IMO) best part of the planeset, especially on the big maps.
Apparently that's asking too much.
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Getting carried away with this "suicide" porker stuff....
I've been on fuel porking runs a fair bit, and I always survive unless CAP catches me +(
2 passes? Usually, rare to need 3...
MiniD... Toad... how you two can agree and still continue to go on and on and on...
Maybe a change in fuel in AH is needed.. perhaps we need 10 fuel tanks per field... perhaps some stored on the field, and some stored off the field...
Just an idea
SKurj
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Originally posted by Toad
No, Beet1e, I really don't think we're on the same side. See, I still don't even see the need for a "war". I only see the need for a fight. :)
Apparently, HT felt it was a bit too aggressive and had a bad effect on the newbs, seeing their names on the dinner menu so often.
Toadster...
It ain't about what you see a need for...it's about what HT sees a need for :).
He told me that the main motivator in changing the kill messages was to reduce the text buffer traffic. He also said he liked the 'advertising' possiblities of the way he chose to do it (for the players) :).
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Originally posted by Mr. Toad
No, Beet1e, I really don't think we're on the same side. See, I still don't even see the need for a "war". I only see the need for a fight. :)
Suit yourself.
If I may just draw upon the Chess analogy once more, I'd like to set out why I see strat as vital to the game. I'm not asking you to agree with me, because I know you won't.
AH without strat would be like a Chess board with no Kings. Checkmate would be impossible, and there would be no point to the game. In Chess, each player competes to deploy his pieces as effectively as possible, with checkmate as the ultimate aim - right from the opening gambit. With no Kings, it would be nothing more than moving the pieces around aimlessly. Each player could take the pieces of his opponent, but for what? No game to win...
I'm not asking for MORE strat. I'm happy with field capture, and believe it's possible to have too much strat. WB became like that. The map might have worked with 200 online, but not 25. In any case, it got so complicated that no-one fully understood it.
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Skurj!!!!
You just made what
is now, and will forever be a rediculous statement.
MiniD will put on his "little Joe" hat and chastise you at the earliest opportunity. :D
You see, "two pass/no gas" is SIMPLY NOT POSSIBLE. MiniD will explain it to you; perhaps without the animosity he displayed when he tried to explain it to me recently. Hard to tell.
But yeah... some sort of balancing feature is overdue.
NB, as for the kill messages, he has also offered other explanations to other folks. Not only to me, either. Ask Rude, for instance. And I know he's running the game. I know I rarely if ever requested a change in the past. However, the camel is groaning under this last straw. ;)
Beet1e, one problem with your analogy. AH has no rules; Chess, OTOH, is completely structured. Rules, turn limits, time limits, limited movement of pieces, etc. Rules that could not work, would not work in an freewheeling MA environment.
So basically, there is no analogy. The games are not remotely related.
Beyond that, the fact that I don't see a need for a "war" DOES NOT Mean that I don't want you to have your war. Have all the war, the Chess, the rules, the structure YOU desire. Just allow me to find a place on the map to enjoy what I like to do. Just put some balance back into it. Doesn't seem like that much to ask.
(However, I've got to point out that the game progressed from beta to where we are by slowly adding more strat. In the beginning and for quite a time, there was really only "the fight". As the things you like were added, the behaviors you detest became more prevalent, more common and more "fun destroying" for everyone. That's my opinion, feel free to disagree. But before all this zone strat/resupply stuff/perks to the winners stuff was added, you rarely saw the stuff we both find less appealing in the game.
Just goes back to what Batz said.)
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Originally posted by Toad
Beet1e, one problem with your analogy. AH has no rules; Chess, OTOH, is completely structured. Rules, turn limits, time limits, limited movement of pieces, etc. Rules that could not work, would not work in an freewheeling MA environment.
So basically, there is no analogy. The games are not remotely related.
Beyond that, the fact that I don't see a need for a "war" DOES NOT Mean that I don't want you to have your war. Have all the war, the Chess, the rules, the structure YOU desire. Just allow me to find a place on the map to enjoy what I like to do. Just put some balance back into it. Doesn't seem like that much to ask.
(However, I've got to point out that the game progressed from beta to where we are by slowly adding more strat. In the beginning and for quite a time, there was really only "the fight". As the things you like were added, the behaviors you detest became more prevalent, more common and more "fun destroying" for everyone. That's my opinion, feel free to disagree. But before all this zone strat/resupply stuff/perks to the winners stuff was added, you rarely saw the stuff we both find less appealing in the game.
Just goes back to what Batz said.)
The reason you can't see the analogy is because you are not interested in/cannot see the need for* (*delete as applicable) strat. I might as well be trying to sell ice cubes to eskimos. But hey, it wasn't a private email. I set out my views for all to see.
The behaviours I detest? Well certainly the suiciding. I've said it enough times. I don't agree that adding strat caused the idiotic gameplay we now see. WB had more strat added over the years, but we never got the pork-n-auger suicide crap at the sort of levels we see in AH. (Granted, the fuel tanks in WB played no part in determining the amount of fuel available at the base)
Nope. It's all about numbers - by which I mean subscribership levels. Being a flat rate game, the producers need to get as many new accounts as possible for a flat rate strategy to work. So we get the kidz, and the tardz. The sort of wankbags I see in AH every sortie just didn't come to WB. Those people have no interest in WW2, and would not have been prepared to pay $2/hour - for a game all about WW2. Here, it's 50 cents a day, so every Jo Schmo can afford it. And all a lot of them want is aerial Quake. Forget the gameplay, forget the presence (or absence) of strat. The kidz/tardz/wankbagz levels in the arena are directly related to one thing and one thing only. And it's not strat.
It's money.
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Humm,
Well the way I see it, if the "war" is to be won, then it would have to take longer to rebuild something than to destroy it. Remove or modify this in any way and you revert to the old stalemates that kept the same (especially the large ones) maps in the arena forever.
Now Toad and his followers would be happy if we eliminated the "war" altogether. As he said he's just looking for the fight. One would have to deduce from his statements that a map consisting of 3 fields a short distance from each other and not destroyable or captureable would suit his "needs" in the game just fine. Ok maybe more than 3 fields just for variety but the concept is sound.
Now beetle wants to have a war to win, but one that is based on succes in aircombat not fuel porking/steam rolling/milkrunning correct? So in his case a system where a moveable "front" that captured fields automaticly as fields fell "behind" the lines as they moved. Now the pilots would have now direct effect on the base capture, ie droping bombs on fuel dumps would have no effect until/unless the "front" moved past that field.
It seems that the system discribed in the last paragraph would suit both. No milkruns because they would accomplish nothing. No suicide fuel porkers because again they would accomplish nothing.
Seems we have found the solution. And yes I know it has been suggested before. One problem though, what about the guys that like to fly bombers or Jabo sorties? Seems they won't have a roll in the above system.
So the problem remains. If the bombers and Jabo guys have to have targets to destroy, then there has to exist the fact that people will explot it by the fly, lawndart, fly method. Additionally the bombers/jabos that can't get people to fly escort are going to go where they have a chance to make a contribution AND have a chance of at least making it to the target ie milkruns where the fight ain't.
The fact remains that how "balanced" the MA is depends on how the people in it try to make it. If we all decided we are going to play the game our way and our way alone then others will do the same to us. If we are unwilling to support them in what they want to do now and again, how can we expect them to support how we want to play?
Furballers, try helping to take a field now and then, carry a couple of bombs on the way to the furball and drop them on the GV hanger before starting to churn and burn. Join a, god forbid, mission now and again or better yet start one to capture a field.
Strat guys, see a good furball happening between two close fields? Don't always make a beeline to it to kill the fuel dumps or kill the CV. Grab a lite fighter and clear a 6 or two.
Face it girls. The only way we can have an areana that caters to everyone is to cooperate with each other every now and again. Cultivate the good behavior and GENTLY chastise the poor.
Just my $.02
Sharky
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Wow toad... revisionist memory is a something you should have printed on a tee-shirt and wear at all times.
I guess if there's a feature you don't like, you have someone handy to blame for it. You may want to research the rearm pads just a tad bit and find out what your twin had to say on the subject. It's all there to see who was requesting what.
As for the maprooms being moved... don't think it had anything to do with plane guns. Carbombing affected fighters and bombers... but the plane rolling and straffing was never really an issue. Unless, of course, you decide it was and then figure that simply must have been the reason they created the towns and moved the map room.
So you were able to make two passes and get 3 stuctures... good for you. Do it at a forward base that's loaded. Even the "ace" skurj say's the 3rd pass is highly unlikely. Depending on if defending 1 plane is over 10 k... the odds go down drastically. Of course, this all does boil down to whether or not there is a defending plane. Which usually... there isn't. Just people complaining about how easily the enemy can fly to a base and attack it.
If you want fighting, without anyone bothering you. There is a very simple solution. Move to the dueling arena. The 5 or 6 of you that think this is all there should be to the game will enjoy yourselves immensely. If you want to accept that there needs to be an overall goal to the game and thus there needs to be strat then stay in the MA... because that will always be the case there.
Of course, you may also discover that you can keep plenty busy even doing what you want in the MA... but that's going to involve you actually making an effort at times and even possibly not being successful. Something a few people are saying they shouldn't have to do. All the while, complaining about how "effortless" someone else has it and how that simply has to stop.
Making it difficult for strat just to make it easy for furballers. No real conflict there eh?
MiniD
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Lol mini!
READ what Skurj said:
2 passes? Usually, rare to need 3...
I believe he's saying he USUALLY does it in 2 passes and it's RARE to need 3 to knock the fuel down to 25%.
But perhaps he'll return and clear this up.
As for me, it was two passes, FOUR structures, at a forward front line base with fighters overhead. Ask Math.. he saw it all and got me too late. Which is the point a lot of folks made when the "defend your fuel" comments are made. Dang hard to stop somebody in the dive.
First pass took out the two fuel tanks situated close together on the NE side with one bomb each continuing on to kill the SW fuel tank with rockets. A vertical whiferdill and back down to rocket the barracks that sits right next to the other fuel tank which was already burning, so I took the barracks. Another veritical move and the nose was coming into line with an ammo bunker when Math took me out with a prolonged burst.
So, two passe would easily have taken all the fuel, had the one by the barracks I destroyed been up.
Rearm pad threads?
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14629&highlight=rearm
Pyro:
Added hot refuel/rearm points to the airbases. These are seen as strips of steel planking just off the runways. Stopping on these for thirty seconds will rearm and refuel your plane and your sortie will be considered continued for scoring purposes[/color][/size]. Damage to your plane will not be repaired.
Guess Pyro didn't check with you before he wrote that. Note it says not one thing about "continuing to fight and defend".
Maybe he should revise history, eh? Or do you already make your own T-shirts?
Amazing how you continue to dig.
As for ideas, I think Icemaw probably had the best in another thread. Maybe something should be substituted for fuel as a strat target. Something that, having it, makes field capture easier or more effective and not having it increases difficulty.
Leave fuel out of it. That way, all planes in the planeset are viable all the time on all size maps, but a "replacement" factor substitutes as a strat object so there's no change in the number of those.
As for fighting "without anyone bothering you", surely you're not totally unaware of what we've been saying are you?
No one wants to take anything AWAY from other players.. they just want room to play IN THE MA in their style as well.
For example, enough gas to take an FM-2 or F4U-1 out on a big map and be able to fly a sector + to a fight and have enough fuel to actually fight a while when you get there. I'm not even asking for enough to RTB.
But, hey, change the argument and don't address the issue. It's what all of you continue to do in this "go to the DA" regard.
As a side note, most of you guys criticize Laz' "bases closer together" idea. But have you noticed the Trinity complaints when down when NB changed some VH to AF and added a few AF and CV's? The effect, of course, was to move the fields closer together. And, clearly, it made the map a much better map FOR ALL PLAYERS. Also made the fuel limited part of the planeset MUCH more viable on Trinity.
That's what's really being discussed here.
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Usually 2 passes even if defence is up... If defence is over 10k, and follows my dive in... well ok, I'll get at least one fuel before I pop. Defence isn't usually a concern until all the ord is gone...
2 1k eggs... line up first pass so ya can drop 1 each on two targets.
Extend line up for next pass with rockets.. 3 rockets per target, again get targets fairly lined up before makin run. This tactic can take out all 8 fuel tanks at a huge base if you get a bit lucky.
Sadly the medium field differs from the huge and small fields in that it has 6 separate tanks, so probably 3 passes with luck at a medium field.
BUT wtf you guys doin? gonna argue this one over and over?
SKurj
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Dunno Skurj.
Ever since AkDeja became MiniD it's like he's living in an alternate universe that is exactly the same in every detail, only completely different.
I mean, cripes.. how many guys that have spent much time in the MA have NOT seen a small field fuel-porked in two passes? And it's near impossible to stop them once they're in the dive. Yeah, you'll get 'em, but not until after they get some drops in.
But MiniD says it:
MiniD:
is now, and will forever be a rediculous statement.
Then he can't even decipher your simple, straightforward statment.
Follows by yanking out some totally "other universe" memories of what the purpose of rearm pads was when implemented.
Tops it off by including a few barbs like:
revisionist memory is a something you should have printed on a tee-shirt and wear at all times
Ad hominem instead of just arguing the point with fact. Tough to respect that.
Hey, I used to really admire AKDejaVu.
This new guy that's exactly the same only completely diffferent from an alternate universe I simply don't understand.
But I'm trying.
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This is the problem...
Someone is convinced the MA sucks. It's not really possible to prove otherwise because that person is simply blind to everything except proving himself right.
It's pretty damn hard to tell someone to like the game again and to stop nitpicking. "Oh yea... well what about the time I saw someone...." It's the perfect argument toad.
I can't believe you've played this game as long as you have and you can't figure out how to have fun in it. I am forced to believe you've simply stopped trying. It's a sad thing to see. It's especially sad to see you insist on making a point of it.
Start playing the game again toad. Stop hiding in the ack insulting anyone that comes near and actually start playing. Get off channel 1 and get off the bbs. Neither are helping you enjoy things at all.
Seriously toad. Stop trying to prove how crappy the game is and start trying to enjoy it. Either that or stop playing cause you've simply forgotten what a game is all about.
MiniD
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Mini, yer better than Leno.
Yah, I'm the ONLY one that thinks the MA is seriously "broke".
Yah, I'm your typical "complains all the time whiner".
Yah, EVERYBODY knows I'm an ack-huggin' alt dweeb that never fights from a disadvantage.
:D
Interesting to note your response.
You're totally wrong about the two passes/no fuel.. but can't admit it.
You're totally wrong about what Skurj clearly said.. but can't admit it.
You're totally wrong about the rearm purpose.. but can't admit it.
But hey.. go ahead an slag me with stuff that just about anyone who plays knows yer slingin' the bullstuff.
You're making my case for me. I've always preferred to let folks show their true selves with their own keyboards.
Press on, Mini. Yer lookin' just GREAT chum.
:D
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Not saying you're the only one toad. I'm saying I was just on and not one forward field had "porked fuel". You... you were here complaining about how all the fuel was porked.
I'm seeing a hanfull of people that are so bitter they spend more time trying to convince people how bad the game is rather than just playing it. Like I said toad... you definately fall into that category. Now that you dedicate all your time to proving yourself right... but citing that time you remember when... well... it's pretty damn pathetic.
Play the game again. Take a break from critiquing it and just play it.
MiniD
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Which just shows how absolutely little you know Mini.
I'm here 'cuz I've had way too much MacAllan to play tonight. After a full day of fun and games.
Check the rest of the recent threads for "porked fuel". Yah, I'm the one imagining it! LOL! Even Beet sees it!
But not you! Too funny.
I play about an hour most nites. Last nite, except for the p-38 sortie that Math nailed me on, I flew the P-40 all night. Part of my ack-huggin' alt dweeb never fights from a disadvantage online persona. And gee.. I FORGOT to fight in my own ack! Can you imagine?
Basically, Mini, you're posting in the blind. Slinging bullstuff to see if any will stick. Problem is, it's sticking to you.
But do press on..
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Sharky - good post, and thanks for joining my thread. :) I think you pretty much understand the game I'd like to see.
I think we're getting bogged down in the fuel porkage "two passes - or is it three?" debate. As Mr. Toad points out, I have started to see the impact that SFP has on the game. I'm not so much against the fuel being porked, but I strongly object to any form of suicide dweebery, whether that be fuel porkage or the much more severe form, suicide-CV-destruction - walls of divebombing LANCs at 500'.
We might be able to steer some tardz away from this erstwhile behaviour by increasing the rewards for fighting sensibly and landing their kills and strat target awards. I personally feel that the k/t stat encourages suiciding because it encourages people not to RTB to land their points. (Lazs - that's just my opinion. I did not comment on my own stats; I did not comment on gun control)
But even if the rewards system were to be changed to favour landed sorties, the suiciding wanktardz with absolutely no interest in WW2 - as someone has already suggested, pimply teens who get off by ruining gameplay for others - will abound.
Guys like me who want to see realistic matchups, and some sort of purpose to the combat will have AH2 TOD to look forward to. That is going to provide my refuge from SFP and S-CV-killer, along with the überplane tardz flying the Big 3 who make it impractical to fly early or midwar planes at times. The furballers will then be left with the wanktardz, and may be driven out to the DA - many now go there anyway, having realised that the DA offers everything they need. That will leave the MA/Classic to the tardz. But what will they do if they have no-one left whose fun they can spoil? Cancel accounts? Or maybe try growing up and/or learning some skills and joining the DA or TOD arenas? Hopefully the latter. But as I said before, it will come down to money. A flat rate strategy needs to fling its doors open to all comers. But there are limits. Most businesses could think of people whose business they don't want - drunken airline passengers, non-paying hotel guests, lager louts at holiday resorts...
Will HTC decide that there are people in this game who are spoiling it for others and decide that their business is not wanted?
If AH2 TOD delivers what guys like me would like to see, and the DA can be made more attractive to the furballers, the wanktardz problem might just sort itself out in AH2. :):)
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I'd like to see something modified to make the fuel harded to kill. I fly 109's almost exclusively and when the fuel is dead it affects whether or not I fly a lot.
Toad, MiniD, You guys are like a couple of old ladies. Reminds me of those radar threads I'd get involved in a few years ago. :)
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If you toggle your 109's engine on and off you can conserve fuel you know. In addition to eliminating sudden flip stalls from "P factor"/ torque effects when you're in a really slow speed turn fight! ;)
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How about an arena with just 1 island with 3 map rooms - no Vehicles or ships - no other land and no other bases - just 10K Air starts for all 3 sides.
Everyone gets 100% fuel and ammo
When you die you appear back at the map room and take back off again.
Jordi
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LoL Jordi,
Does this mean Fighter Ace FFA had it right all this time? ;)
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Now this is why I say give us 10 SMALLER fuel tanks at a small field. 20 at a medium field, and hey why not 30 at a large field.. and allow players to load fuel in 10% increments.
Make em half the size they are now.
Might make everyone happier
Reminds me, saw a guy drive away from the pumps the other day with the nozzle still in the tank lol During rush hour and lots of people saw it and started honkin the horn +)
SKurj
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My 2 cents :)
I think Fuel porkage and its balance vs resuppy is an issue.
Personaly I would have there be many more, scattered about Fuel tanks. I might cluster a spot with 3 together for carpet bombing. But I like the numbers of 10, 20, 30
That would be fairly easy to do, I belive map makers could do this when creating a map. (correct me if Im wrong)
The other thing I would like to see is a cement fence type barrier around each take. This one would be hard because it would have to be something HTC provided for the game.
The Idea being this. If I was having my fuel straffed, rocketed and bombed, I would try to protect it better. Having solid walls constructed around each tank, would mean low angle attacks would not be likely to work.
A pilot would have to come down near vertical to straff, or rocket. Bombs would have to come from above and blast radius damage would be reduced.
In this way, a squad with several pilots could still take down fuel but it would be more of a challage. It would pretty much limit the amount of damage a single Jabo pilot could do. I have a feeling that Good Bomber pilots would figure out how to be effective too.
Increasing the challange would also help the attacker too in that when a base is captured, it would be more likely to have fuel to make the base more useable.
It just seems to me to be far to easy for a single guy to mess up this resource.
{Edit: BTW, This has nothing to do with AH:TOD, but instead with the MA.... Doh!}
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Well now we've had the new, fields close together FesterMA map. Very well received. I look to the reasons as to why it was well received, and am left thinking that there's a very good chance that AH2-TOD might never be deployed at all.
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Originally posted by Zanth
Only flight sim I played where you had hundreds of people in multiple arenas was Air Warrior. There has got to be a lesson in there somewhere.
I guess you never flew fighter ace --where they had to have several MA's because the numbers where so high --If I remember correctly 300 max per arena.
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Originally posted by beet1e
Well now we've had the new, fields close together FesterMA map. Very well received. I look to the reasons as to why it was well received, and am left thinking that there's a very good chance that AH2-TOD might never be deployed at all.
guess you missed the part where HT said he was targeting a different market (with some natural overlap).
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Originally posted by Shane
guess you missed the part where HT said he was targeting a different market (with some natural overlap).
guess i did
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Christ beetle, what did you think AHTOD was going to be all this time?
You damn near live here, you are saying you didn't know?
I refuse to judge people here anymore, you can't have a clue. It's 10X's worse than ya think. Calling them a tard may be a actual personal attack.
Good grief.
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"Originally posted by Zanth, Only flight sim I played where you had hundreds of people in multiple arenas was Air Warrior. There has got to be a lesson in there somewhere.
"I guess you never flew fighter ace --where they had to have several MA's because the numbers where so high --If I remember correctly 300 max per arena."
Oh yippee. A seal fight about who's arcade had more dweebs.
Beetl1, TOD is aimed at folks who want to a RPG- somewhat. Not like WWIIO where there is a persistant world till one side wins but via scripted scenarios that are strung together. Much like the short run Air Warrior auto-scenarios - I believe. They'll be fun. More than the CT imo but as with anything I'd hate to have it as my only choice.
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Originally posted by beet1e
Well now we've had the new, fields close together FesterMA map. Very well received. I look to the reasons as to why it was well received, and am left thinking that there's a very good chance that AH2-TOD might never be deployed at all.
How many threads are you gonna revitalize or start, going around screaming like "chicken little" about the viability of AH II : TOD ?
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I have doubts about graves. I'm pretty grave about doubts but I've been known not to be grave about doubts. Sometimes, I doubt that I am grave enough, other times I doubt that I am too grave.
But I do doubt that it's time to be grave about something that hasn't made it's debut as yet.
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Will wait for the release before trying to make any judgement on AH2 and gameplay. Of course my doubts are whether it will ever be released at all this year given lack of news.
Also am I the only one that finds the graphics of the odd new screenshot that's been posted, rather unimpressive?
...-Gixer
~Hells Angels~
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Originally posted by Creamo
Christ beetle, what did you think AHTOD was going to be all this time?
You damn near live here, you are saying you didn't know?
I refuse to judge people here anymore, you can't have a clue. It's 10X's worse than ya think. Calling them a tard may be a actual personal attack.
Good grief.
Can you get your fat arse to the WCMC? I'm sure we'll hate eachother, but that will be good. I actually like some of the people I hate. ;) One thing's for sure - you'd be entertaining company.
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I believe the ToD is aimed to attract a new player base; those who fly the more realistic single-player boxed campaigns, but haven't flown online.
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I think of TOD as il2 sturmovik. I had lots of fun playing in campaigns in that game with flights and organization but despized the stupid AI drones that were so predictable AND boring.
tod is a different kind of fun. most after being ordered around and organized at work all day will say to hell with organization and go blow stuff up in the MA. others may Gravitate toward the realism of TOD despite the naturally longer flight time to the action. if there is enouh realism his wont be a problem.
the reason the MA dosnt do well on long flight times is because its not about realism its all about action. TOD is a different animal.
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hard to believe HTC will miss the targeted player's wants with so much material to go with on this BBS.
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Originally posted by Citabria
tod is a different kind of fun. most after being ordered around and organized at work all day will say to hell with organization and go blow stuff up in the MA. others may Gravitate toward the realism of TOD despite the naturally longer flight time to the action. if there is enouh realism his wont be a problem.
I think you've hit on something! That would certainly explain why folks like Mr. Toad would enjoy the frenetic pace on your map - after a day of organised flying, long hours etc...
...and that's kind of why I like the organisation/teamwork aspects. I want to be part of a group effort with an objective. Because in my daily life, I do whatever I want (within certain legal and social limits, of course). No-one ordering me around - *she* went. ;)
But here's the thing. We were expecting TOD last year, but only shortly before the current release did I find out that it wasn't going to be there. BIG disappointment - for me anyway. So we looked forward to Q3 of 2003. But AH2 hasn't appeared, and since about 6 months ago, I understand it's not going to have TOD anyway - just some new graphics. So far, I've seen a wing... We don't even have a delivery date for TOD, and even if we did it's a long way off and might not be met. We've had the Q3 delivery date for AH2 for at least 6 months, which leads me to believe that TOD is at least 9 months or a year away. I always remember how folks eagerly anticipated WB3. The high expectation was based on eye candy. But eye candy alone does not a flightsim make, as has been seen with WB3. (Peak attendance is what - 30? Or is it 50?) So I was really hoping for gameplay revisions, and maybe some purpose to shooting down planes/making stuff go BOOM.
And then we have your new map. And the gameplay is faster paced... I never said I didn't like your map. Fact is I didn't have enough time to play it, but made some observations and asked questions. But from what I saw, the gameplay is a step or two in the opposite direction away from what TOD will offer.
That, plus the apparent popularity of your map, plus my own observations in the MA of what people seem to want lead me to have certain reservations - see the title of this thread.
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Originally posted by beet1e
Well now we've had the new, fields close together FesterMA map. Very well received. I look to the reasons as to why it was well received, and am left thinking that there's a very good chance that AH2-TOD might never be deployed at all.
Whatever may have caused you to feel qualified to make such a statement has for sure, brought a what a goof shake of the head from HT.
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Hblair says it best , fuel porking only affects the guys who , as Toad says "Fly what you like" .
If you are a so called furballer or just want to take a quik jabo run and have to fly another 20 min per sortie cause there ain't no gas close to the front it 's not good for the "GAME".
Hoping TOD will give the Porkers another venue.