Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: NUKE on August 18, 2003, 12:53:35 PM
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It's starting to suck trying to find a place that has gas here....hundreds of gas stations out of gas. There is at least a half mile long line at the corner gas station near my house this morning ( one of 3 on that corner that actually has gas) Lucky for me I can run on propane or gas.
Its amazing .... Phoenix is the 5th largest US city and we get crippled almost overnight due to a gas pipeline ( the only one!) that should have been repaired 5 years ago.
Now all we need is a black-out ... :eek:
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Did I read right? Nearly all of the gasoline that comes into Phoenix arrives by a single pipeline? So basically all gas at all gas stations is the same product?
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I was wrong, we have 2 lines ( 3 actual pipes)
There is line from California, The West Line ( 20" single pipe) and there is the East line, from El Paso through Tucson ( 2 lines, 8" & 12")
The line from Tuscon is the one that burst.
We are getting a lot of our gas trucked in at this point, but it is a mess.
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So which line carries premium gas...and which one regular?
I think that is what Mickey is getting at.
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you can send different products through a pipline , they do it all the time , you shut one valve and open another. there is some mixing at the change point , it is drained off and sold seperatly.
but , yes most gas is the same when it is shipped, the difference between brands is the additives that are added at the distribution point.
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Phoenix also has a special reformulated gasoline blend that makes it hard to swap supplies from other states or even within the same state.
In the summer our refining and distribution infrastructure operates at 98 percent capacity. We had more in the 1980s, but that led to oversupply and lower profits, so the industry cut out all the extra overhead and produced more gallons using fewer facilities. Any disruption anywhere, except perhaps in some conventional gasoline areas very close to multiple sources of supply, is going to cause a major headache.
Charon
[you can pump multiple products through the same pipline (at least until the ultra low sulfur diesel regs hit in 2005 :) but there is a lot of lead time to get the product from point A to point B.]
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Anyone in the Phoenix metro area have any secrets or tips for getting gas? This officially sucks now.
People have even been following gas trucks around , lol.
Today I was on the lookout for gas stations for people at work and the few I saw with gas had lines as long as a mile. Plus since everyone is pumping at the same time, I hear the pumps are real slow and it takes about 20 minuts for a fill up.
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Ask Laz to borrow his El Camino, then you can just camp in the back and drive from station to station.
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the shortage could be partly self-induced, it happened in the mid 70's , people would go to the gas station to "top up " every day, result ...long lines and no gas.
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I'm guessing its being caused by my dad's big bellybutton 35 ft RV being refueled in Casa Grande. Oh wait, its my brothers SUV being refilled in Chandler. No wait, its...
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LOL!
I just fueled up with propane today...otherwise I would be screwed .....
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"they" like to induce artificial shortages in selected cities every once in a while to see the reaction and guage how much the American public will bow down for.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
"they" like to induce artificial shortages in selected cities every once in a while to see the reaction and guage how much the American public will bow down for.
lazs
And don't forget the "shortages" are an excuse for price gouging. (or is that what you are trying to say?)
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Blame the enviromentalist!!!!
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Anyone still got the link for that article on the small company that can make gas out of garbage (turkey guts, plastics, etc)? I think I want to invest with that company.
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Nuke, I got lucky... saw it coming. Filled up all the vehicles on Friday. My truck will run out on Thursday if I don't get gas.... will have to drive the 'vette. Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!
Gas is around $1.79 to $1.99 out by my house. Saw it at $3.99 downtown though... ouch.
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Didn't we go to war for oil?
I say we go back to the good old days.
Horses! ;)
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Originally posted by NUKE
Anyone in the Phoenix metro area have any secrets or tips for getting gas? This officially sucks now.
Don't know where you're at but today, Wednesday, there is one station within 5 miles in any direction from me with gas. Corner of Power and Brown in Mesa - I just filled my wifes car for her - $2.99 a f____ng gallon. Didn't notice price 'til the ticker started crossing $40.00 and I almost messed myself in outrage. Then continued filling the tank cause . . . well, whatta ya gonna do?
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There's gas to be had in Surprise, Nuke. Problem is, you will have to wait in line. I don't do lines. Of course, if the gas line isn't repaired on schedule this weekend, I'll be out of gas in all cars by the end of next week.
:(
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Blame the enviromentalist!!!!
The “Naderite” environmentalists certainly do their part. The Carol Browner EPA under the Clinton administration (more a Gore thing than a Clinton thing, though) was extreme to say the least. I covered a number of environmental issues in the 1990s and found myself against EPA policy almost without fail. And I consider myself very much to be pro environment. However, as far as reformulated gasoline is concerned, you have to talk to the good folks over at ADM about that :) The environmentalists are good tools for the ADM folks to use, but ADM is the 800 lb gorilla where "clean" fuels are concerned.
Y’all get so worried about some inner city welfare mother skimming food stamps, when some of these corporations are riding so high on your tax dollars through subsidies that I wonder if they need to actually sell products to other customers. For each gallon of ethanol added to gasoline $.50 is taken from our highway funds to make it “economical.” In fact, ADM just managed to push through a sweeping ethanol mandate to put a product in gasoline that makes it harder (more expensive) to distribute, that’s a wash environmentally and that provides inconsequential benefits where “reducing our dependence on foreign oil” is concerned. Funny thing is, farmers (and critical farm Senators) support this, but to meet the mandate non-farm sources of ethanol production will have to be developed. Currently, biomass production is expensive, but give it a few years and farmers may find themselves increasingly cut out of the loop.
Charon
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"they" like to induce artificial shortages in selected cities every once in a while to see the reaction and guage how much the American public will bow down for.
And Laz, you're basing this on what again? If you want to blame the big bad oil industry blame them for free market capitalism. The volitility is due to a paper thin infrastructure that can't handle any disruptions at peak periods. The infrastructure is so thin, because with over capacity you lose money on uneeded overhead during non-peak periods and even peak periods when no disruptions occur. The fact that we get screwed when a disruption occurs, and that they enjoy good (localized) profits as supply and demand increases prices at the rack have been looked into by Congress and found to be perfectly above board.
One answer would be to regulate the industry like you do in socialist countries. There are a lot of reasons why this is a bad idea.
Charon
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And don't forget the "shortages" are an excuse for price gouging. (or is that what you are trying to say?)
By who? The dealer that sees his supply price increase by as much or more per gallon as his price at the pump? Gasoline is a commodity that is bought weekly to multiple times weekly by the people who own gas stations. They get a supply price from a brand partner (major oil company) of if independent, on the spot market. When a disruption occurs the first group to see the increase in price is the retailer. If there is initial "gouging" it reflects the fact that they will likely see sales at cost or near cost for some weeks to come once whatever is in the tanks runs dry.
Generally, the higher the volitility related price, the less money an average dealer, jobber, marketer makes at the pump. As it is, $.08 cents/gallon is considered a good margin for a product that is a real pain to supply. Most of these guys are looking to give up making money at the gasoline islands in the next couple of years and hope the gasoline offer brings customers into the stores. For that matter, most of the major oil companies are looking to get out of retail (both company stores and dealer networks) since the big money is in exploration and production. Even refining is seen as a low-profit/high-risk operation.
Charon
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Now the Big Bad Oil Companies wouldn't gouge you on the price of Gas. They would be investigated by the highest levels of Government. Vote Bush/Cheney in '04!
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Originally posted by Steve
There's gas to be had in Surprise, Nuke. Problem is, you will have to wait in line. I don't do lines. Of course, if the gas line isn't repaired on schedule this weekend, I'll be out of gas in all cars by the end of next week.
:(
Steve I got lucky today, my brother and I were eating lunch at a Denny's in Scottsdale with an empy gas station in view of our window seat when a gas tanker pulled in. For about 10 minutes as we ate there was hardly a line so went over and filled up, went back to the office and told everyone....... and about 3 people went down there just as the station raised the price from 1.89 to 2.19..... but at least they got gas.
They say that the pipeline failed the test today Steve, so I wouldn't count on the gas this weekend.
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Maybe if fewer people commuted alone in giant SUVs you wouldn't have this problem.
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Originally posted by Montezuma
Maybe if fewer people commuted alone in giant SUVs you wouldn't have this problem.
*fires up Chevy Blazer and drives needlessly farther than I could walk to get a cigar (leaves engine running while I go inside)*
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there are cars that get 40+ mpg, go buy one of those and then stop complaining about fuel problems.
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Shut up Frogman, ya fuggin tard. The cars that get 40 mpg have to wait in the same line for gas.. Do you own a car that gets 40mpg?
Do you own a car? Does your disability check allow you to afford one?
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yea it gets 40mpg and i fill it up every 2 weeks.
my disability checks are huge anyways.
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Steve, you just trumped my reply to his ignorance... I was responding when my computer crashed.
Frogboy, cars that get 40 mpg have the same problemn buying gas as anyone else here.
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
yea it gets 40mpg and i fill it up every 2 weeks.
my disability checks are huge anyways.
I have a 40 gallon tank of gas plus 14 of propane and fuel up every 2 weeks, what does that tell you?
when your two weeks are up you would be in the same line as myself or anyone else.
Some people are so ignorant it seems :)
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with any luck, Frogman and I will end up in the same line.
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dam my car runs only 36miles with a gallon (6,5 liters/100km at 90kmh/55mph, much much more at 200kmh/125mph...).
Oh well, need to fill it up only once per month and I also know I'm giving as little money as I can to the Saudis :)
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Nuke, Steve,
But the cars which consumes 40mpg, doesn't have to visit at the gas station even nearly as often as the giant SUV's :D
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i should tell you now that i dont swing that way steve. i know it is hard for you to resist , but please try not to fantasize about my hot body to much.
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It figures you Zonies always know how to muck things up. You clog up San Diego every summer in your mass exodus to escape your Hades' like heat inferno and now you cause gas to go up $0.30 in just two days because we have to pick up the slack for you friggin' desert dwellers.
Gas near my house was $1.75 yesterday, now it's $2.05.
ack-ack
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Charon,
You have a clear understanding of the industry, it is refreshing to read someone who doesn’t have a knee jerk reaction blaming everyone and everything for the messily price we pay for gas.
First you have to find the oil,
Then build a multi billion dollar pumping station, move it across some of the most in hospitable land imaginable.
Build a billion dollar holding port, build billion dollar tankers, ship it across the ocean, to another billion dollar port,
Put it in trucks, move it to a billion dollar refinery (which takes 800+ permits to build which makes it not worth it)
Produce over 100 blends of gas at 4 different octane’s, then truck it to every station in the country, after they have been built.
And you all complain about the price of gas.
Lets see I bought a bottle of water the other day it was $2.00 for 500ml, that’s $15.20 a gallon.
And my coffee is $1.60 for 500mls that’s $12.16 a gallon.
If there is any price gouging its at Starbucks.
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fishu... I think they are saying that the cars that get 20 MPG have tanks that are twice as large as the little pissant tanks on the 40mpg cars so... they would both need to fill up at the same time given the same amount of miles traveled.
My car only has a 21 gallon tank and gets about 10-13 mpg.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
fishu... I think they are saying that the cars that get 20 MPG have tanks that are twice as large as the little pissant tanks on the 40mpg cars so... they would both need to fill up at the same time given the same amount of miles traveled.
My car only has a 21 gallon tank and gets about 10-13 mpg.
lazs
I didn't think of those would have been that much bigger.
Although one thing is for sure: if people wouldn't drive the darned gas drunks, it'd be less likely for the gas stations to run out of gas.
But then again gas stations likes it when they can sell alot of gas, if they can manage to keep their pumps filled that is.
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Charon,
You have a clear understanding of the industry, it is refreshing to read someone who doesn’t have a knee jerk reaction blaming everyone and everything for the messily price we pay for gas.
Thanks JBA. It's a very complicated industry and if I didn't earn a living covering it for the past 5 years I would be entirely clueless :)
The big things on the horizon now from a volitility standpoint are the MTBE phase out and our ability to meet those volume demands, the ethanol mandate and the diesel sulfur regs and how many refineries/terminals are are going to convert to ultra low sulfur diesel by the 2005 deadline. Things are sure going to get interesting in another two years or so.
Charon