Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: beet1e on August 18, 2003, 06:42:55 PM
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Funny how starting off at the top the range and working downwards makes you appreciate the lower models more...
Have spent hours buggering about in 109G6/G10, and while these are good sneak planes, and good for roping noobs, in a 1v1 fight against a competent pilot, the manoeuvrability just isn't there, and deflection shots with the spud cannon? - forget it.
So I've moved down to the 109F4. Woohoo! Still a good climb rate, and... manoeuvrability - always feels good to whack P51s and LA7s. Must be a good plane - got a 16/2 k/d. Note for the simple minds: that's a k/d for this plane only - not an overall k/d.
109F4 - well balanced for the needs of the late-war-monster dominated MA, without being an überplane itself.
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damn you've found my plane.
skull12
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Biggest problem with the 109F4 is that it is completely dominated by the Spit 9 and N1K2. You lose the ability to out-climb/run them, and you still can't quite keep up with them in a dogfight. It is a good plane for killing over-agressive P-51/La7 pilots in, although cautious ones can E-fight you with impunity and run if they lose the advantage. Second biggest problem is the guns suck.. you'll be the king of assists if you stay in it.
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i either out turn them and slap them with cannon or HO and aim for the engine.works everytime to. i HO get 1 ping on engine i check 6 see he is smoke and im off to get the con. 2 mins later "system:you have killed xxxxxxx #xx"just keep doing that until i die
skull12
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Hey, if going head-on works for you thats great. I personally wouldn't want to joust with 4x20mm or 2 Hispanos with only 1 20mm and 2 peashooters. Besides... if they don't go for the head-on what do you do then?
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Beet1e, kepe flyin rook. i'llpick the pesky ones off your 6 like ticks off a hound.
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i bring the 2 extra 20mms with me.
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I love the F-4, its a poorman's spit 14 (in turnfights) and its a stripped down G-2.
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109f4 and gondies.... never leave home w/o 'em...
hell i fly all the 109's with gondies anyway despite the perf hit (top end usually) on the 109g series.
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Originally posted by beet1e
and deflection shots with the spud cannon? - forget it.
NOOB! :rolleyes: :D
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109F4 is a fun plane, I need to fly them more. Most guys in the main arena arent good at idenifing wich 109 your in. F4 can turn pretty good but I like the G2 little better I think.
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i still remember the video interview from a janes flying sim with Gunter Rall (spelling) as he was saying he absolutly hated having to fly with gondolas as it severly disturbed the flight characteristics of the 109, and in a high g it would rip right off.
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if only it had a 30mm cannon...
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Originally posted by udet
if only it had a 30mm cannon...
I wish G2 had the 30mm... Then it would be an evil death monster... Imagine the G2 with a 30mm and no stupid 7.92mm cowl guns and their ammo as dead weight... :)
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109 f-4 is fun (as long as you appreciate your gonna die more often in the MA)
Its good to surprise people in a turn fight when they are expecting a g-10 :D
and its biggest bonus is its a perk potato :D
Skull12 i think you should take Urchin into the DA and teach him how to fly 109's as you are obviously the 109 f-4 master. :rolleyes:
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hehe i am slowly becoming a master.been flying the thing whole tour.im getting ok. i find best sucess HO and aiming for engine. was funny, today huge huge huge huge furball at 4. this 190 was chasing me. when he was in side 1k i would brake hard right. all his shots missed :D. we did that a few times before my E ran out and i fliped and augered. My squaddie had a field day with the 109F4 one day. he just kept landing 2 kill sorties.
skull12
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Originally posted by B17Skull12
this 190 was chasing me. when he was in side 1k i would brake hard right. all his shots missed :D. we did that a few times before my E ran out and i fliped and augered.
You couldn't beat a 190 in the Fritz? Then you have a lot to learn my young apprentice! :D
The Fritz is about 10mph faster than the Spit IX below 20k, can turn with the Spit IX at medium speeds and outturn it at very low speeds using flaps. The Fritz is cleaner than all the other 109's and dives very well, and it doesn't compress so fast.
IMHO the 109F4 is the perfect MA plane. It's only vice is it's lack of firepower, but don't get tempted to use the gondies, they pork the Fritz (don't listen to Shane, he's just trying to trick you into becoming easy fodder for his El Gay 7 :D).
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Skull12 its good your haveing fun as thats what its all about when it comes down to it,
but if you want some help I would gladly help, as I hate to see anyone use a HO as a prefered method of attack, I'm just an average pilot but I'm sure I could help raise your k/d above 0.1, PM me if you see me in the MA i'm a bishop :)
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I can see I'm in the company of many 109 aficionados here. :) Some very good points here, chaps. I like the one made by mia389 about the con not knowing which 109 you are in. That scenario featured in at least 4 of the 16 kills I got yesterday in the 109. The ones that were getting tripped up the most were P51/LA7/Yak(assume 9U). BTW, In Brand-W, the 109E had the colouring of the 109F in AH, and the Brand-W 109F was a sort of brown thing with a white nose - flying türd as I used to think of it. Gawd, I was crap in 109s in Brand-W. :(:( -possibly the worst 109 pilot in the game.
Urchin - I take your point about the Spit9. But in AH, so many guys try to force the HO that if I justfly over the top of the Spit, then roll into a 90° banked turn, maybe use a click of flap, the Spit tries to climb up but can never get guns solution. Sometimes I could get the guy after he stalled out and mushed, or another friendly would do the job for me.
No complaints about 109F performance or handling. And I was using gondolas. :D
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If you prefer big furballs then go ahead and take the gondies, you'll need the firepower to avoid being the assist king of the gang. However if you're like me and enjoys smaller fights, even 1 on 1's then the clean config is for you. Take 75% fuel and a droptank, burn off 25% of the main tank first while climbing before burning the DT. Depending on the opposition you encounter you can keep the DT to extend you flight duration, typically if I encounter a non-turning plane in an inferior E-state I keep the DT and climb back up after executing the poor bastidge. Typically after you've pickled the DT you have 25% to fight on and 25% to get back home.
I just love to dive on El Gay 7's, throttle back and watch their futile attempts to avoid me saddling them up and riding them for all their worth. In a 1 on 1 I really enjoy just torturing them to death with the 7.92 mm's. :D
(http://www.bf109.com/gallery/grayeagle/gallgray02lg.jpg)
Puuuuurdy! Nowotny's colors if I'm not mistaken.
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Pretty good plane to use, when a CV attack starts. Outperforms both the Seafire and the FM-2, can fight against the F6F-5 in very eual terms. You aren't gonna catch many F4Us, tho' .
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Originally posted by GScholz
IMHO the 109F4 is the perfect MA plane. It's only vice is it's lack of firepower, but don't get tempted to use the gondies, they pork the Fritz (don't listen to Shane, he's just trying to trick you into becoming easy fodder for his El Gay 7 :D).
bah! i slap la7's around with various 109's in the CT. 109g10 isd a great la7 killer.... 109f4 is a tad too slow if they start running, but if they turn... yummy... altho' an la7 down low can give the 109's some trouble with that climb and power/accel they have - not a quick kill vs an la7 who has a clue.
having said this, 109f4 is as someone mentioned, a great perk potato and it can hold it's own in the MA.
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I flew the 109F a lot last year, got good turnfighting in it, then tried the G10, got good in HO'ing in it, then tried the Yak9U, got REAL good in it, went back to 109F and was disappointed in the performance, but still had fun doing the alt-dive-alt thingy, then tried the Ki-61 (since it has the same motor as the 109E) and realized that I'd found my calling.
Try the Ki-61 or the C.205 if you like the 109F with gondolas.
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Some good info here, thanks folks. As one who is slowly starting to figure the 109 out (IE I get an occasional kill in it before I explode), it is a help.
Skull12, I agree with Shane, find a better way than HO. At best you can expect to die or take damage 50% of the time, and if you HO a Tiffie or Hurri IIC you are gonna pay dearly. (as well as the other "heavy hitters in the game).
"In a 1 on 1 I really enjoy just torturing them to death with the 7.92 mm's". ROFL Gscholz, did your mother never tell you not to play with your food?
Cheers
RTR
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torturing with 7.9mm mg LOL
they only tickle and with prolonged use could cause a rash to develope. :D
if i recall correctly i think i once did cause some damage to a plane with the 7.9mm once,
seriuosly though the only practical use is to use them to scare a running nme into turning by spraying from miles away as they extend. :)
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Originally posted by Kweassa
Pretty good plane to use, when a CV attack starts. Outperforms both the Seafire and the FM-2, can fight against the F6F-5 in very eual terms. You aren't gonna catch many F4Us, tho' .
I don't feel dominated by 109F4's in an FM2. Over the last 5 tours I am 60-40 vs 109's in general, and 8-4 against 190F4's in particular. I respect 109's most of the good 109 pilots are consumate B n Z er's and are dificult to kill. You can't make many (or any) mistakes against them and expect to live.
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the 109f is a piece of junk, can't turn- no firepower
all the 109's are overrated
wouldn't be caught dead in one
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Originally posted by Eagler
the 109f is a piece of junk, can't turn- no firepower
no kidding... it used way too much 7.62 (approx 200 rds) at 100 yds to take off a 51b's tail.
dam thing blows monkey chunks. it should be removed from the planeset.
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I'll take the G6 anytime.
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Eagler or Shane you should take Mr. B17Skull12 aka. '109F-4 Master' to the DA and show him how good it can really be.
:D
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Skull12, your enthusiasm is great to see. I wouldn't put the label of "master" on yourself though; that's for others to pin on a person. For comparison, I have been flying for exactly a year and still don't feel I've approached "master" in any plane. Remember what happened between you and I in the DA, and you should have a gauge of where you stand. I'm not trying to discourage you, but when you toss comments about becoming a master, you really open yourself to response.
IMO Skull, there are only a small handful of masters. Levi's SpitV comes to mind, along w/ Drex's F6...then there are those p47 guys... hehe nifty sticks... lefty, ammo.. and their crew.
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I wouldn't put the label of "master" on yourself though
have i said i was master?no i didn't. i know for a fact.im not a master. had more luck HO today. was about to stall out and tiffy diving on me took HO shot he takes 2 pings..............his wing falls off. i just uped 190 coming to me take HO shot his wing falls off with 2 3 pings.ewhat i normal will do is get on the spits 9 or 3 clock at about 1k away turn on his 6 and what him speed away. ive been flying the il2 alday today cause these bish gv dweebs.
i will be master by end of touror next tour:rolleyes:
pratice makes perfect.
skull12
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No, you said
hehe i am slowly becoming a master
Look, I tried to give you some helpful advise, you threw it back in my face. Fine, I get your message. You're already taking lumps in this thread... maybe you just don't get it.
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*sigh*
Skull there are lots of people here who are willing to impart with some knowledge. Why you seem to be stuck on this idea that the HO is the way to go, is beyond me. Maybe you do need to visit the DA for a bit. There are lots better pilots here than me, but hell, I'd be willing to be a target for you. Or should I wait till the end of this tour, when you become a "Master"?
Oh, and bring more than the HO pls, Im rather shy and dont dance all that well.;)
On a more serious note, try listening with your ears instead of your yapper. More effective that way i've found.
RTR
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actually, i ave found that if i hit someone fleeing at about 800 or so away with 7mm i can sometimes scareing them into commiting a turn
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someone gimmie 15 bucks and i'll prove 'em HO-ing with 109F-4 (1x 20mm or with Gondola loadout) is not a way to go.:D
BTW, dont use the 7.7mm and mg151s together. you all might get confused that the 7.7mm tracers hitting the plane are MG 151 20MM. I think 1x MG 151s are a little bit slow as the MG/FF.
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Look, I tried to give you some helpful advise, you threw it back in my face. Fine, I get your message. You're already taking lumps in this thread... maybe you just don't get it.
im one of those people who dont like taking advice..... just way i am. i like to learn my self. if wrong i just try couple more thing till i get it right. tried 109G10 couple time. ive learned not good turner, has that ability to have speed is be able to move unlike 109F4 that is the 1 thing i dont like about 109F4. also 109G10 good buff killr. 30mm isn't good choice for 109G10 for me. only thing im taking advice in is 262. which wilbuz is helping me in. it has taken me a good 6 months since i started playing this game to get good at the bombsight and gunning in the b17 which i still cant gun that great in but ive proven i can kill 163's and 262 in the thing. lancs to.im still no good at gunning in those. got luck once and hit couple of pings on 163's wing. stress cause the wing to fall off. btw 6 months and im still no master like 99900 and tatertot are in the b17's but im coming close even though it might take 6 more months. o almost never bom with out bombsight any more. now if you excuse me ill go pork your hq and die bunch of times.
skull12
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Keep in mind, skull12 is.. 12. He also claimed to shoot down 6 163s with a stuka tailgun by aiming for the fuel tanks and porking entire HQs on the same run..
I didnt even bother starting to consider trying to help him. :)
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btw 6 months and im still no master like 99900 and tatertot
I must agree here...999000 is the only "true" master as far as Aces High goes. ;)
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Originally posted by Ike 2K#
BTW, dont use the 7.7mm and mg151s together. you all might get confused that the 7.7mm tracers hitting the plane are MG 151 20MM. I think 1x MG 151s are a little bit slow as the MG/FF.
Ike. One of the things I learned about flying the 109G with spud cannon was that you had to get very close before firing - 100 yards, 200 max. So I am in current practice for getting that close before firing. I think if you're that close and fire both weapons together, both will hit the target.
The only problem about waiting to get to 150 yards is that there'll probably be some dork in a F4U, spraying at the same target over your shoulder from 700 yards. I take back anything I said about killshooter. We need it for those dorks!
Hehe - I remember in Warpbirds trying for those 100 yard shots. It would end with a lag collision death 50% of the time, and a mishap with the "collision bubble" another 45% of the time.
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Originally posted by Monty405
actually, i ave found that if i hit someone fleeing at about 800 or so away with 7mm i can sometimes scareing them into commiting a turn
All this talk about the 109F got me to thinking about it some more, so last night I took one out for my last hop of the evening.
The map had just reset and us Rooks had jumped on the opportunity to get some quick bases on the eastern seaboard. The Bish were in the process of recapturing the bases more inland and were running nuisance raids on the coastal base. I decided to up a 109F to defend the base.
Since the frontline base had been porked to 25% fuel, I launched a 109F with gondolas and drop tank from our regular base to the south with the idea that I'd hot-pad for reload once I got over station. On my way up the coast I spot a radar blip and mosey over to check it out. Its a Corsair, a birdcage model, about 8k altitude heading inland. I pickled the tank and went diving down.
What I forgot was that I had left my tracers turned on from my previous outing in a ground gun. It didn't matter - the Corsair never saw me coming but my first few rounds flew past his canopy and he tried to go evasive, but by then the 20mm gondola rounds were impacting his airframe and he came apart. Splash 1. :cool:
I hit WEP and climbed up, heading northeast into the airway from the nearest Bish base. Sure enough, another radar blip comes up so I set myself up for an offset merge, so that I can keep an eye on the bogey while climbing. I spot the dot and move a little closer. Its a Spitfire.
As he goes flashing past, I recognize that its a Spitfire IX. Surprisingly, the Spitfire doesn't engage, choosing instead to extend out towards the base. I figure he's just out to get some quick points by de-acking the field so I go into pursuit, but he's faster than I am and the distance is growing to around d900, so I pop a few 7.7mm machine gun rounds over his head to try and spook him into turning. He wiggles his wings, probably to see where I am am, then starts a gradual turn to the left to go evasive. By now a couple more Rooks are on the scene and climbing up from the field but they're too low to engage.
Eventually the Spit rolls over onto his back and does a split-S, probably to engage the lower Rooks. As he goes down, I stay upstairs. I figure one of two things will happen: (a) he'll stay low and engage the lower Rooks or (b) climb up and lose his speed, at which point I'll have him. Sure enough, he makes a guns pass on a lower Rook then pulls up into a loop. I close the distance to d400 and start popping 20mm rounds but he's going into a twisting dive and I can't get anything to hit. I manage to stay with him but can't pull enough lead in the turns to land a shot, so I keep flashing the small machine guns to scare him into turning sharper and sharper. Eventually, he runs out of speed and goes nose up, then starts a turn to the left, silhouetting him beautifully against the sky. Splash 2. :cool:
Now there's a P-51D coming in from the northwest and a Ki-61 coming in from the east. The Mustang is the more aggressive pilot and he immediately goes nose-low to get some speed and make an attack run on me. I evade and hit WEP to get my speed back.
The Mustang continues going down and strafes the lower Rooks, then makes a strafing run on the airfield and pulls up on the far side. I chase him on the dive but can't catch him. He pulls up then kicks right rudder and does a wing-over and starts coming back down. I try a snap-shot in his face but can't land a hit as he begins his dive. I roll over and follow him down, but I don't pursue all the way down. Instead, I level out at 5k over the field and wait for him to come up. He does, and again he does the right-rudder wingover maneuver and goes back down for another strafing run, and again I miss the shot as he's hanging on his wingtip. He goes back down but I stay topside and wait for him to come back up. And again he comes back up, but by now he's lost some of his energy and he can't quite get the wingover to work. I close to d300 and open up. The gondolas bark once, twice, then are silent. Empty! :eek: I pepper him with the machine guns at d200 and manage to knock off his tail. Splash 3. :D
Feeling pretty good about myself, and being low on ammo, I radio that I'm rtb and I cut my throttle, drop 2 notches of flaps and my gear, and set up my landing approach. Right about the time I start wondering how many perk points I've earned, one of my countrymen radios "GoFaster, check 6", and then I hear the 20mm shells drill my fuselage.
I had forgotten about the Ki-61. :(
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Good sortie, gofaster. Wish you had filmed it. :cool: I've done what you were doing, and it works well against fast B&Zers - don't try to chase them through their strafing run, but just wait for them as they come back up. You and I have had to do that because of flying slower planes, by which I mean slower than the porkers' choice of P51/La7.
I tell you who taught me a lot about that total energy management - and that's an Israeli guy called ViFF - also known as snorkey in AH.
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You fellas need to drop the gondolas,
Those are for suckers....
Note the oversized gunsight on the 109f4, use the centerline cannon and mg's and practice.. no freaking gondolas (sissy sticks like in billiards)
109f4 has best ah gunsight of 109's... IMO
You got plenty of firepower if you hit the target...
This plane is no superplane like the g10 but is strong on all aspects except fuel and firepower( questionable)
In the 15k - 20k range this aircraft can fight any other aircraft in the game on near equal footing..
I would link your cannon and mg's into one trigger pull.. This nonsense of 151's dropping under the mg's may be correct if your shooting above 500m but at 300m and less (mine's at 275m) your bullets go where you aim them. If you shooting above 500m in the first place youve got the wrong plane...
enjoy the F model...
DoctorYo
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I've got my guns mapped 3 ways: all, primary, secondary. I rarely fire the cannons by themselves, but I do fire the MGs alone when strafing AA guns or scaring targets.
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Originally posted by B17Skull12
have i said i was master?no i didn't. i know for a fact.im not a master. had more luck HO today. was about to stall out and tiffy diving on me took HO shot he takes 2 pings..............his wing falls off. i just uped 190 coming to me take HO shot his wing falls off with 2 3 pings.ewhat i normal will do is get on the spits 9 or 3 clock at about 1k away turn on his 6 and what him speed away. ive been flying the il2 alday today cause these bish gv dweebs.
i will be master by end of touror next tour:rolleyes:
pratice makes perfect.
skull12
It would be wise to listen to some of the people posting in this thread. Some of them have been flying online sims almost as long as you've been around on this planet and are only trying to help you out.
Some times the cockiness of youth closes your mind to other possibilities I guess.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Rutilant
Keep in mind, skull12 is.. 12. He also claimed to shoot down 6 163s with a stuka tailgun by aiming for the fuel tanks and porking entire HQs on the same run..
I didnt even bother starting to consider trying to help him. :)
Hehe maybe he's stealing my story of scoring a golden BB hit on a Me262 in a Ju-87 and taking it down.
ack-ack
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skull12 has 43 kills and has been killed 161 times in 109F4.
A master at work.
i like to learn my self. if wrong i just try couple more thing till i get it right
If one of those couple more things includes gratiously accepting help from people that have much more experience than you, that record that you have in the 109F4 might just improve a bit.
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skull12 has 43 kills and has been killed 161 times in 109F4.
:) one of my best k/d best i think is in the tigr with 5 kill to every death followed by panzer, and then 109F4.(maybe i should go back to bomberland) well back on subject ive been trying different convergances for that thing. i find setting them closer is the best but, (someone plz kick me) i keep mine at about d550 through d500. isn't 109G2 more amoured that f4? getting better in the plane. little by little. im not the lazserus in the 190 yet:) . im begging to think to be good in 109F4 you have to be good in spit9:confused: . if so i might as well look for new plane. was never good in spits. not 1 kill this tour in spit. my k/d in the plane will be better next tour. but until then back to praticing day in day out:) . urchin right got to know you will die more than kill. bett1e is exception he is like ack-ack he is "special" i am not. so plz stop whining about this and just let me live my life (or just die some more from tiffies).btw urchin these tiffies are becoming pain. anything you do beside get ready to push enter 3 times.
skull12
(maybe i should put sign that says cadet plz kill me:) )
system:skull12 has been demoted to newbie:cool:
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being good in a 109f-4 means being good in 109's in general, as they a catagory unto themselves, there not true bouncers (BnZ) as the compress to easily and they are not very hot at Turn and Burn (T&B) so you got to use a mix of both, and the advantages that the 109 can give quickest way to find these is to get some help pointers from someone will to help and put them into practice by spending time in the plane.
to be good in any plane involves, good SA (situation awareness) and ACM (air combat manouvers) without any appreciation of these you will suck and as such the only tactic available for you to kill someone will be the HO.
now convergence for 109's I set mine to d300 and dont fire till until then or closer.
spits are totally different being good in a spit 9 involves 100% throttle and holding the trigger down whilst wiggling joystick randomly and planes should just start to fall from the sky all around you ;)
(i do love spit 5 though)
this thread got me flying the f-4 again after many months and I sucked real bad to start, but finding my legs again and got my first 5 kill landing last night, and got 3 perks per plane killed :)
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Keep with the HO man, they don't know what they're talking about.
No true friend would ever pull you off a HO.
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I'll HO in a 109 with the 20mm hub cannon only sometimes. Only I do it my way, you see the guy at 3k,if hes the average MA dweeb his nose will fix on yours and he'll fly straight in. at 2k I'll pull up stick 2nd-3rd mark from bottom on my revi sight on him, then squeeze off a 5 round burst.
there is still time to evade his HO and I get a free hit on his engine, nothing so fun as seeing a motorless niki fly by spraying.